ff in Cuba
 

In article , Dave LaCourse
wrote:


I don't know where you live, but if your neighborhood was bombarded by
an outside force, would you not retaliate, or would you sit there and
take it? Answer THIS question before you blow your righteous horn,
Lazuras.

I HAVE lived in a neighborhood that was bombarded by an outside force.

During the 1970s I was living (and bringing up my children) in Northern
Ireland, which was being bombarded by the IRA (which was largely funded
by the USA).

Nearly as many NOrthern Ireland people were killed in the one year
of1972 as Israelis have been killed in the whole of the Intifada.

I was very, very close (yards) away from many explosions, was in one
building when a bomb went off in it, and my children were showered with
broken glass in their beds when the IRA bombed a nearby police station.

The IRA were repeatedly sending rockets and mortars across the border
from the Republic of Ireland.

But the Brits did NOT respond by sending its airforce over the South of
Ireland, and slaughtering hundreds of Irish policemen and civilians
(which it could have done), nor by bombing the USA where the funding
was coming from (which of course it could not).


Incidentally, the Palestinians are not an 'outside force'. They are
people whose parents and grandparents come from what is now Israel, and
who are being ethnically cleansed from their own country.

Just to remind you, the Palestians have been invaded by an outside
force, and are legally entitled to fight back; the Israelis have
invaded another country, and are legally obliged to withdraw.

Lazarus

ff in Cuba
 

On Fri, 02 Jan 2009 20:50:03 +0000, Lazarus Cooke
wrote:

Just to remind you, the Palestians have been invaded by an outside
force, and are legally entitled to fight back; the Israelis have
invaded another country, and are legally obliged to withdraw.


Israel is a soveriegn state. She is being invaded by a terrorists who
place their rocket and mortar sites among the population so that
innocents will be killed when Israel strikes back.

Just for your information, look at Google map of Gaza and look at all
the open space I was talking about. Fields with crops growing (so
much for the starvation part), empty desert, lots of wood groves, etc,
etc, etc. They could easily put their weapons in these areas but they
do not. Why? Because the headline, "Israel kills 23 in air strikes
against the Palestinians in Gaza," is a helluva lot better for
propaganda purposes than, "Israel bombs rocket and mortar pads. Three
Hamas terrorists killed."

Go here and see if you can find a place to hide the rockets instead of
using the civilian population as a shield.

http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&tab=wl&q=gaza

The boundary is well marked. Use satellite with labels. There are
spaces withint the territory that you could place the entire U.S.
Navy's 6th Fleet! And they can't hide their rockets/mortars there?
Bull****. They fire the rockets simply to get the Israeli's to strike
and get bad press. Leave the Israeli's alone. They will naturally
react to any outside force. Mark my words, Lazarus, if they are
pushed very hard, especially by Iran who is the main sponsor of Hamas,
they will react in a way that no one, *no one* want

Just saw three rockets launched from Gaza. They came from the city.
What more proof do you need? Hamas WANTS casualties, because WITHOUT
casualties there is NO PRESS.

Go Israel, Survive

Dave, RWC

ff in Cuba
 

On Fri, 2 Jan 2009 09:59:08 -0800 (PST), rb608
wrote:

On Jan 1, 10:47*pm, Dave LaCourse wrote:
They were starving, and cold because they couldn't get food and fuel.
And yet, they seem to have NO problems whatsoever in getting rockets,
mortars and other weapons. *Gee, why not smuggle in some food
concealed IN the rockets and the mortar tubes would carry lots of
kerosene. *

Surely you don't suggest that the ease of smuggling relatively small
amounts of rocket components is in any way equivalent to importing
enough food, water, and fuel to feed and warm a population of a
million or so people. Also, you do know that the manufacture of
rockets within Gaza is significantly simpler than growing food there.
The equivalence you argue simply doesn't exist.

Joe, go to Google Earth:

http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&tab=wl&q=gaza

Looks like lots of veggies/fruit trees to me. I just saw on the news
some Palestinians leaving Gaza. They didn't look like they were
starving. Zoom in on the map using satellite (labels on).

Dave

ff in Cuba
 

On Fri, 2 Jan 2009 11:45:24 -0800 (PST), DaveS
wrote:

On Jan 1, 7:47*pm, Dave LaCourse wrote:

Well Dave we are soon going to get to the second phase. You see when
you starve an animal, it gets angry, and then it bites. Allot of this
is about Olmert, already in legal trouble over corruption in Israel,
and condemned by combat soldier groups IN ISRAEL for the mismanagement
of the recent Israeli defeat in Lebanon at the hands of Hezbollah, so
Olmert and some others are trying to maintain the myth of Israeli
military invincibility.

Hamas has nothing in the air to take on the Israeli 300+ fighters and
ground attack planes, nor can the Arab world deter the minimum of 100
to max 400 nukes estimated the Israelis have, so Hamas' armed wing is
waiting. Hamas is in tunnels and bunkers 20 meters down, waiting for
the Israeli ground assault. They will follow the same plan that
Hezbollah developed for Lebanon.

Hamas will let the Israeli ground attack, tanks and APCs, pass, on
into the densest built-up areas, where the tanks will be in single and
double echelon. And then Hamas will use tactics like so . . . they
will cripple one of the vehicles back in the line, and then take on
the individual vehicles in detail (example, rpgs to screw up the
automated turret defense guns, then something to cook the tank etc
etc.). As the Israelis retreat/reposition Hamas will attrit them using
roadside munitions etc.. Hamas is likely to use the same cellular C&C
structure of small, independent units, empowered with prepositioned
munitions, and independent tasking and decision authority. It will be
bloody, and count on the Israelis using white phosphorus and DU. But
say what you will, the IDF reservists are not the USMC, and the IDF
ground will have high casualties.

Maybe a high causality, second defeat will pull down the Israeli
rightwingers. I doubt it. I worry that in a full bore defeat, the
Israelis will use one of their nukes, like they almost did once befor.

Israel needs to make peace with its neighbors and recognize the right
of Palestine to exist as a nation within the pre-1967 borders. If
Israel continues to hold the Palestinians captive within an expanded
Israel, the simple arithmetic of birthrates will ultimately eliminate
the reality of a majority Jewish State. People who "support Israel"
thru blind acceptance of rightwing Israeli actions and tactics, no
matter how stupid or short sighted, need to consider the long term
outcomes.

David


Wow. You seem to be celebrating Israels defeat and death before it
happens. Will you open a bottle of bubbly, have your far left friends
over and celebrate. I'd feed 'em matza balls and Mogan David wine.
That should get some chuckles out of your anti-Israeli crowd.

It is a two way street, David. All the Palestinians have to say is,
"Yes, Israel has a right to exist," and there will be no more war.
Until they do, the fighting and dying will continue. The Arabs REFUSE
to accept Israel. So, now what? Nuclear war with Iran? Count on it
if something isn't done. I pray Obama can bring some sense to both
sides, but until he does, I will pray that Israel exist and thrive.
If the outside world punches her, she will punch back.

Go Israel, Survive

Dave, RWC

ff in Cuba & OT
 

On 2-Jan-2009, Lazarus Cooke wrote:

Incidentally, the Palestinians are not an 'outside force'. They are
people whose parents and grandparents come from what is now Israel, and
who are being ethnically cleansed from their own country.

Just to remind you, the Palestians have been invaded by an outside
force, and are legally entitled to fight back; the Israelis have
invaded another country, and are legally obliged to withdraw.

Interesting points having nothing whatever to do w ff

However a little of my own opinion since I know that you all asked:

All of my life the MY gov't has supported fascist, and aggressive regimes
and Israel is certainly amongst the worst
Yes the Saudis are our wonderful friends as is the Kuwaiti monarchy - great
people everyone of them!
**** them too!

Re Israel
It's our ****ing money in foreign aid paying for these weapons
Billions that we have committed to these scum bags
However, you can be certain, that the usual group of suspects and war
profiteers are behind this outright aggression
War is good business!

May Bush & Cheney rot in hell !
I think that we should try & hang them for war crimes and atrocities to the
Iraqi and American people
I don't see it happening so
I would throw my shoe at and **** on them both!

The fact that Cuba has survived in the face of the US embargo is fascinating
and wonderful
Cuba seems to be a real interesting country and a nice little island with
rightfully a proud people
I also would love to go and I have looked into it
Unfortunately it has gotten far more difficult - mostly do the asshole(s)
still in office & theis government's disgusting foreign policy

The pull of the Cuban,people, music, culture (baseball) and fishing is
alluring

IMO I find that the anti Israeli comments very welcome as it shows that
people are no longer eating the mass media pablum!


Fred

ff in Cuba
 

On Jan 2, 3:41*pm, Dave LaCourse wrote:

David, tell me this: How in the hell did you manage to get thru the
Navy all those years without learning to read a map?

Dave

ff in Cuba
 

On Sat, 3 Jan 2009 10:58:38 -0800 (PST), DaveS
wrote:

On Jan 2, 3:41*pm, Dave LaCourse wrote:

David, tell me this: How in the hell did you manage to get thru the
Navy all those years without learning to read a map?

Dave

Read a map? Who's reading a map. I'm looking at a satellite photo of
Gaza with mucho open areas, areas containing no population, areas
containing fruit trees, green cultivated fields, desert. Why doesn't
Hamas put their offensive weapons in the non populated areas? Bad
press, mainly.

Go Israel, Survive

Dave, RWC

ff in Cuba
 

On Jan 3, 11:11*am, Dave LaCourse wrote:
On Sat, 3 Jan 2009 10:58:38 -0800 (PST), DaveS
wrote:

On Jan 2, 3:41*pm, Dave LaCourse wrote:

David, tell me this: How in the hell did you manage to get thru the
Navy all those years without learning to read a map?

Dave

Read a map? *Who's reading a map. *I'm looking at a satellite photo of
Gaza with mucho open areas, areas containing no population, areas
containing fruit trees, green cultivated fields, desert. *Why doesn't
Hamas put their offensive weapons in the non populated areas? *Bad
press, mainly.

Go Israel, Survive

Dave, RWC

Im sure its great fun for you to claim I want to see Israel destroyed,
defeated etc etc. when you have no basis in fact for hanging on to
your 30 years out of date emotional fantasies about Israel. The other
day I predicted that Israel would go into Gaza on the ground, and that
Hamas was waiting with a specific set of tactics that was going to
cost Israeli lives. The first part has now happened and the IDF chief
is warning today that the price of the ground attack will be high. The
IDF will do what it is asked, but don't play the fool and believe that
this is not about Israeli internal politics. Unfortunately, its the
young men whose lives will be ended, because Hamas believes it is
ready this time. I stand by my assessment that they will fight, pretty
much as I described.

And here is a clue about maps: SCALE.

Here is a map David, a real map put out by an Israeli human rights
organization of the land grab that has taken place on the West Bank,
where rules Fatah, the corrupt Palestinian faction that Israel wants
to displace Hamas in Gaza.

http://www.btselem.org/Download/Sepa...er_Map_Eng.pdf

It is a map that no newspaper in the US has dared to publish. Are
there any clues in this map that might suggest to you anything about
the extent and pace of Israeli land takings in the West Bank? Who do
you think is allowed to drive on the Blue highways? Who do you think
works in the walled industrial parks? Do you know who has seized
control of the water resources? Do you know how much water is
allocated per capita to a Palestinian vs an Israeli? Do you think
Palestinians are permitted to be in the white areas of the map? Why do
you think an ISREALI human rights organization opposes the land grab
on the West Bank?

Dave
Both Israel and Palestine have a right to exist

ff in Cuba
 

On Sat, 3 Jan 2009 19:29:56 -0800 (PST), DaveS
wrote:

Both Israel and Palestine have a right to exist

EXACTLY. Why won't Hamas say that Israel has the right to exist?


We are not talking about the west bank, we WERE talking about Gaza.
Correct?

So, if we are talking about Gaza, can you tell me why the Hamas
terrorists do not fire there rockets from the northeast corner of
Gaza? There is nothing there to hurt if Israel bombs the site.
Follow the border from the northeast down to the southeast corner of
Gaza. There is nothing, NOTHING within 500 ft of the border. Why
doesn't Hamas use this area to fire their rockets/mortars? Rhetorical
quetion - we know why: Because the press would not satisfy what Hamas
wants, and that is Palestinians killed.

Read the ****ing map/sattelite picture, David. There is so much room,
so much unpopulated areas in Gaza that you could take the Sixth Fleet
our of the water and place the ships within Gaza and STILL have mucho
room to hide mortars/rocket pads without endangering the civilian
population.

Face it, David, you HATE Israel and want to see her defeated. Nothing
would please you more than to see the Jews lose lives over a fight in
Gaza. Do you pray that they will be defeated? Is your hatred that
great?

Read the ****in' map I sent you. Why cannot Hamos place there rockets
outside of populated areas? WHY?

http://maps.google.com/maps?source=i...-8&sa=N&tab=wl

Zoom in to 200ft/100mtrs scale, and tell me why can not Hamas put
their offensive weapons in the farmlands, orchards, deserts, along the
border, instead of placing them in populated areas? Only MADMEN would
place offensive weapons amongst the population. Only MADMEN would
want civilians killed.

My God, David, but you have got this all wrong. Think, man, think,
what Hamas is doing.

Dave

ff in Cuba
 

On Jan 3, 11:19*pm, Dave LaCourse wrote:
Zoom in to 200ft/100mtrs scale, and tell me why can not Hamas put
their offensive weapons in the farmlands, orchards, deserts, along the
border, instead of placing them in populated areas? *Only MADMEN would
place offensive weapons amongst the population. *Only MADMEN *would
want civilians killed.

And only MADMEN would actually kill them.

I disagree with Hamas' tactics. I agree with you that it is immoral
for them to endanger their civilian population by firing from civilian
locations. But, and I believe here we diverge, I also believe it is
of greater immorality for Israel to intentionally kill those
civilians.

Joe F.