Question about loop leaders?
 

On 17 Oct 2004 22:38:01 GMT, irate (Dave LaCourse) wrote:

In the words of my favorite roffian sage:

FYC

Well bless your heart, aren't you guys sweet.
--
Charlie...

Question about loop leaders?
 

Dave LaCourse wrote:
Barnard writes:


You're not only a welshing, double dealing ****heel, but a liar to boot.
I watched you fish the Kiddie Hole for at least an hour, and I have a
photo of you fishing there.



Yep. I fished the Kiddie Hole. I didn't know any better. I took one fish and
when I saw its condition, I moved on. And I watched you and someone else fish
the braids and you cast upstream so that it would flow down past your feet so
you could catch a fish. Like I said, that ain't fishing. I also saw you go
fish-less on Henry's Fork. Your presentation wasn't worth a ****, so that's
probably why you couldn't catch anything. But, you were probably using loop to
loop connectors, so I can understand why your presentation sucked. d;op

One more bald-faced lie. Were you following me around all the time?
Unlike you, I'm not into bragging about the number of fish I catch. Of
course, we all were regaled with stories of how many fish you caught, ad
nauseam. It's amazing that, in this late stage in your miserable life,
you still haven't discovered that people don't like bragging, especially
when it comes from a proven liar.

I have no doubt that you are ashamed of fishing the Kiddie Hole. That's
why you asked me to remove the photo from my web site. You were actually
changing a fly!

--
Cut "to the chase" for my email address.

Question about loop leaders?
 

Dave LaCourse wrote:
Barnard writes:


You're not only a welshing, double dealing ****heel, but a liar to boot.
I watched you fish the Kiddie Hole for at least an hour, and I have a
photo of you fishing there.



Yep. I fished the Kiddie Hole. I didn't know any better. I took one fish and
when I saw its condition, I moved on. And I watched you and someone else fish
the braids and you cast upstream so that it would flow down past your feet so
you could catch a fish. Like I said, that ain't fishing. I also saw you go
fish-less on Henry's Fork. Your presentation wasn't worth a ****, so that's
probably why you couldn't catch anything. But, you were probably using loop to
loop connectors, so I can understand why your presentation sucked. d;op

One more bald-faced lie. Were you following me around all the time?
Unlike you, I'm not into bragging about the number of fish I catch. Of
course, we all were regaled with stories of how many fish you caught, ad
nauseam. It's amazing that, in this late stage in your miserable life,
you still haven't discovered that people don't like bragging, especially
when it comes from a proven liar.

I have no doubt that you are ashamed of fishing the Kiddie Hole. That's
why you asked me to remove the photo from my web site. You were actually
changing a fly!

--
Cut "to the chase" for my email address.

Question about loop leaders?
 

Dave LaCourse wrote:
Barnard writes:


You're not only a welshing, double dealing ****heel, but a liar to boot.
I watched you fish the Kiddie Hole for at least an hour, and I have a
photo of you fishing there.



Yep. I fished the Kiddie Hole. I didn't know any better. I took one fish and
when I saw its condition, I moved on. And I watched you and someone else fish
the braids and you cast upstream so that it would flow down past your feet so
you could catch a fish. Like I said, that ain't fishing. I also saw you go
fish-less on Henry's Fork. Your presentation wasn't worth a ****, so that's
probably why you couldn't catch anything. But, you were probably using loop to
loop connectors, so I can understand why your presentation sucked. d;op

One more bald-faced lie. Were you following me around all the time?
Unlike you, I'm not into bragging about the number of fish I catch. Of
course, we all were regaled with stories of how many fish you caught, ad
nauseam. It's amazing that, in this late stage in your miserable life,
you still haven't discovered that people don't like bragging, especially
when it comes from a proven liar.

I have no doubt that you are ashamed of fishing the Kiddie Hole. That's
why you asked me to remove the photo from my web site. You were actually
changing a fly!

--
Cut "to the chase" for my email address.

Question about loop leaders?
 

On Sun, 17 Oct 2004 17:37:04 GMT, Ken Fortenberry
wrote:

Wayne Harrison wrote:
snip
to gratuitously publish one's private opinion of another person's
shortcomings, true or not, is cowardly, and totally devoid of class.

You've just described Wolfgang to a T. Still, I miss the nasty little
jerk and wish you hadn't run him off with your pollyanna platitudes.

Whoa, just a minute, and hold the phone...let me get this straight: rw
ran off WOLFGANG with pollyanna platitud...oh, wait, I get it - this is
Bizarro ROFF...CO-O-O-O-L-LLL!! So here, wayno is a gay computer
programmer with a Yugo who tells lawyer jokes, Wayne K. has one Walmart
special rod with a Martin, Peter Charles is a redneck garbageman in
Marianna, Florida who hates "them damned Canajuns," Jeff Miller enters
"Toughman" bare-knuckles fights, and you are actually a blue-blood,
silk-stocking, Republican corporate manager who thinks that welfare and
pot are blights and amongst the big factors that will lead to the
downfall of humanity...

Well, on the with the fun!
R

Question about loop leaders?
 

On Sun, 17 Oct 2004 17:37:04 GMT, Ken Fortenberry
wrote:

Wayne Harrison wrote:
snip
to gratuitously publish one's private opinion of another person's
shortcomings, true or not, is cowardly, and totally devoid of class.

You've just described Wolfgang to a T. Still, I miss the nasty little
jerk and wish you hadn't run him off with your pollyanna platitudes.

Whoa, just a minute, and hold the phone...let me get this straight: rw
ran off WOLFGANG with pollyanna platitud...oh, wait, I get it - this is
Bizarro ROFF...CO-O-O-O-L-LLL!! So here, wayno is a gay computer
programmer with a Yugo who tells lawyer jokes, Wayne K. has one Walmart
special rod with a Martin, Peter Charles is a redneck garbageman in
Marianna, Florida who hates "them damned Canajuns," Jeff Miller enters
"Toughman" bare-knuckles fights, and you are actually a blue-blood,
silk-stocking, Republican corporate manager who thinks that welfare and
pot are blights and amongst the big factors that will lead to the
downfall of humanity...

Well, on the with the fun!
R

Question about loop leaders?
 

rw wrote:
Ken Fortenberry wrote:
Wayne Harrison wrote:
snip
to gratuitously publish one's private opinion of another
person's shortcomings, true or not, is cowardly, and totally devoid
of class.

You've just described Wolfgang to a T. Still, I miss the nasty little
jerk and wish you hadn't run him off with your pollyanna platitudes.

I bet Willi a beer that he'd be back. That's a bet I sincerely hope
to lose.

What is this - the history channel? Can't we all just forget about the past and
get along?

Yeah, that *is* funny, ain't it? ;-)
--
TL,
Tim
http://css.sbcma.com/timj

Question about loop leaders?
 

rw wrote:
Ken Fortenberry wrote:
Wayne Harrison wrote:
snip
to gratuitously publish one's private opinion of another
person's shortcomings, true or not, is cowardly, and totally devoid
of class.

You've just described Wolfgang to a T. Still, I miss the nasty little
jerk and wish you hadn't run him off with your pollyanna platitudes.

I bet Willi a beer that he'd be back. That's a bet I sincerely hope
to lose.

What is this - the history channel? Can't we all just forget about the past and
get along?

Yeah, that *is* funny, ain't it? ;-)
--
TL,
Tim
http://css.sbcma.com/timj

Question about loop leaders?
 

Tim J. wrote:

What is this - the history channel? Can't we all just forget about the past and
get along?

No.


Yeah, that *is* funny, ain't it? ;-)

Not particularly. No smiley here.

--
Cut "to the chase" for my email address.

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wrote...
i am truly sorry you said what you said; i think you owe dave, warren
(who i suspect would have preferred that his financial condition, and his
reliance upon the charity of another man, would not have been advertised in
this forum), and all the rest of us, an apology.

You are wrong, wayno. I don't give a **** about my "financial
condition" or my "reliance upon the charity of another man" being posted
to ROFF. I'll always be grateful to Dave for making my attendance at
Penn's possible. The following is as true today as it was when I first
wrote it:
http://makeashorterlink.com/?B24742D89

The only change/revision I would make to that post would be my
employment status. ;-) Reading it again brought back some good memories
and helped wash some of the bad taste that was left in my mouth from
reading the crap that is going on right now. Sick, wrong and ****ing
disgusting IMO and I want absolutely nothing more to do with it. Just
so there are no mistakes: Dave, thanks again for getting me to Penn's.
I will *always* be grateful for you doing what you did and the thought
of your deeds being blasted in this forum really gives me a case of the
red ass.
--
Warren
(use troutbum_mt and earth(nospam)link dot net to reply via email)

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Warren wrote:

Dave, thanks again for getting me to Penn's.
I will *always* be grateful for you doing what you did and the thought
of your deeds being blasted in this forum really gives me a case of the
red ass.

In that case, you shouldn't have bitched about it in earshot of a
half-dozen people.'

--
Cut "to the chase" for my email address.

Question about loop leaders?
 

Question about loop leaders?
 

"Charlie Choc" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 17 Oct 2004 19:16:55 GMT, Ken Fortenberry
wrote:

Charlie Choc wrote:

I fished all the way up from the Texas hole to the cable hole. I'm not
sure
what you are calling the currents, but - as I said - I didn't see anyone
fish
the way you describe or any fish deformed the way you describe. ...

If you fished the Kiddie Hole and didn't see any deformed fish then
you must have got skunked at the Kiddie Hole. Louie's right, Kiddie
Hole fishing isn't even sportsmanlike.

Didn't get skunked and didn't see any deformed fish (there). Maybe what we
thought was the kiddie hole wasn't.

Yeah, I supposet that's an option. My story matches Charlies exactly: we
waded in across a shallower part and I took up a postition behind some
larger, flat topped rocks near where the head of the main current was. All
my casts were with nymphs (learned the day before that little else worked)
but were upstream and off to the side, and I definately did not kick up any
seds from the bottom. I was catching medium sized fish (14 inches, or so
IIRC) every 4-5 minutes or so. They were definately not beat up, in fact
some were quite pretty. About 8 or 10 other people came through in the time
we were there (about an hour) and I don't think anyone else caught anything
at all.

Maybe it wasn't the Kiddie Pool: we discussed that several times as it was
both of our first time there. And maybe there is a well-known formula for
catching fish, but we weren't using it and weren't catching any skaggy fish
either. But AFAIK, it doesn't matter; we were fishing.....rejecting some
locale because its 'too easy' or the 'fish are ugly' smacks of elitism. We
were newbies to the region, and had to work for our catches.

--riverman

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--
X-No-Archives: maybe, possibly, hell I don't know?
"rw" wrote in message
m...
Warren wrote:

Dave, thanks again for getting me to Penn's. I will *always* be grateful for you
doing what you did and the thought of your deeds being blasted in this forum really
gives me a case of the red ass.

In that case, you shouldn't have bitched about it in earshot of a half-dozen
people.'


Remember not "bitch" to tell me that you are "mildly ****ed off" the next time I
decide to, repeatedly, post Ken's response to your **** post.

Mark

Question about loop leaders?
 

rw wrote:
Warren wrote:

Dave, thanks again for getting me to Penn's.
I will *always* be grateful for you doing what you did and the
thought of your deeds being blasted in this forum really gives me a
case of the red ass.

In that case, you shouldn't have bitched about it in earshot of a
half-dozen people.'

I'd guess that Warren was "bitching" about having to come up with $200 at a time
of unemployment. I'd further guess that he couldn't have even imagined that
someone would turn around and post it on roff - especially someone using it for
a shield because *they* felt attacked on another front. Steve, you're dis'ing a
*LOT* of people with this round, because many of us donated a few dollars just
to help rescue the Zimbo rod. Dave is the one who refused to keep the money and
used it (and much of his own, I suspect) to give the people attending Penns some
western camaraderie.
--
TL,
Tim
http://css.sbcma.com/timj

Question about loop leaders?
 

rw wrote:
Warren wrote:

Dave, thanks again for getting me to Penn's.
I will *always* be grateful for you doing what you did and the
thought of your deeds being blasted in this forum really gives me a
case of the red ass.

In that case, you shouldn't have bitched about it in earshot of a
half-dozen people.'

I'd guess that Warren was "bitching" about having to come up with $200 at a time
of unemployment. I'd further guess that he couldn't have even imagined that
someone would turn around and post it on roff - especially someone using it for
a shield because *they* felt attacked on another front. Steve, you're dis'ing a
*LOT* of people with this round, because many of us donated a few dollars just
to help rescue the Zimbo rod. Dave is the one who refused to keep the money and
used it (and much of his own, I suspect) to give the people attending Penns some
western camaraderie.
--
TL,
Tim
http://css.sbcma.com/timj

Question about loop leaders?
 

rw wrote:
Tim J. wrote:

What is this - the history channel? Can't we all just forget about
the past and get along?

No.

Yeah, that *is* funny, ain't it? ;-)

Not particularly. No smiley here.

You *must* think it's fun. You're the one stirring the **** pot.
--
TL,
Tim
http://css.sbcma.com/timj

Question about loop leaders?
 

rw wrote:
Tim J. wrote:

What is this - the history channel? Can't we all just forget about
the past and get along?

No.

Yeah, that *is* funny, ain't it? ;-)

Not particularly. No smiley here.

You *must* think it's fun. You're the one stirring the **** pot.
--
TL,
Tim
http://css.sbcma.com/timj

Question about loop leaders?
 

Warren writes:

Dave, thanks again for getting me to Penn's.

I know that, and I understand you venting with rw as I posted in an e-mail just
a few minutes ago.

For those of you who do not understand, let me give a short history. After
penns, I tried to contact Warren, and got no reply. Again and again I got no
reply. The e-mail filter I use on this account had his old e-mail address, so
his replies were blocked. We finally figured it out and I assured Warren not
to worry about anything he ever owed me. It wasn't about the money; it was
about him blowing me off. Warren and I squared away all of this months ago.
It is sad, however, that it had to be made public, embarrassing both Warren and
me. Warren's financial and employment situation is no one's business.

Question about loop leaders?
 

riverman writes:

.rejecting some
locale because its 'too easy' or the 'fish are ugly' smacks of elitism.

No elitism involved, Myron. The fish in the Kiddie Hole are so beat up that I
know if you caught one, you would feel the same as I do. I am talking about a
good size rainbow (17 inches) that comes in like a rag doll. When you see its
mouth, all scarred with open sores, if you don't condemn fishing there, then
you have no heart. You might as well use a net to catch these fish because
catching them on a fly rod ain't sport.

Question about loop leaders?
 

Dave LaCourse wrote:
snip
It is sad,
however, that it had to be made public, embarrassing both Warren and
me.

It's not you two who are being embarrassed.
--
TL,
Tim
------------------------
http://css.sbcma.com/timj

Question about loop leaders?
 

Dave LaCourse wrote:
snip
It is sad,
however, that it had to be made public, embarrassing both Warren and
me.

It's not you two who are being embarrassed.
--
TL,
Tim
------------------------
http://css.sbcma.com/timj

Question about loop leaders?
 

"Dave LaCourse" wrote in message
...
riverman writes:

.rejecting some
locale because its 'too easy' or the 'fish are ugly' smacks of elitism.

No elitism involved, Myron. The fish in the Kiddie Hole are so beat up
that I
know if you caught one, you would feel the same as I do. I am talking
about a
good size rainbow (17 inches) that comes in like a rag doll. When you
see its
mouth, all scarred with open sores, if you don't condemn fishing there,
then
you have no heart. You might as well use a net to catch these fish
because
catching them on a fly rod ain't sport.


Well, yes and no. I'm a bit embarassed to admit it on roff (well, not all
that embarassed, I guess) but I got skunked on the Juan my first and third
day. Like I tell my Calculus kids; its simple if you know how, impossible if
you don't. For them who know the Juan, catching footballs there is
apparently trivial, as folks tell tales of hundreds of fish a day. I saw
some absolute newbies under the tutelage of a guide hauling out big fish
with every drift. It was humilating, but then again, what did *they* learn,
except how to catch fish on the Juan?

However, not knowing that you needed submicroscopic nymphs, where the 'hot
spots' were, what the local technique was, or where the 'better' fish were
merely meant that I had a great day fishing and figuring it out for myself,
which is what I like best about fishing. Personally, I hate things that
become 'popular' because all sorts of stupid artificial rules start coming
in. Suddenly, certain gear is de rigeur, other gear is 'square' or 'old
fashioned'. Even in the non fishing world, I hate that ****. Gotta have the
right shoes, the right haircut, the right car, gotta live in the right
neighborhood. Hey, its still rock-and-roll to me, I'd rather live my own
life.

Anyway, I doubt that I will ever fish the San Juan again. Too much 'local
knowledge' which tries to invalidate self-discovery. When Willi spent a day
figuring out how to catch those fat browns in that pond, he was fishing.
Anyone who spends a day figuring out how to catch the fish on the Juan is
considered a loser, especially if they fish the Kiddie Pool. Or shuffle
their feet, or cast nymphs behind them. Screw it, too many rules to that
place.

--riverman

Question about loop leaders?
 

"Dave LaCourse" wrote in message
...
riverman writes:

.rejecting some
locale because its 'too easy' or the 'fish are ugly' smacks of elitism.

No elitism involved, Myron. The fish in the Kiddie Hole are so beat up
that I
know if you caught one, you would feel the same as I do. I am talking
about a
good size rainbow (17 inches) that comes in like a rag doll. When you
see its
mouth, all scarred with open sores, if you don't condemn fishing there,
then
you have no heart. You might as well use a net to catch these fish
because
catching them on a fly rod ain't sport.


Well, yes and no. I'm a bit embarassed to admit it on roff (well, not all
that embarassed, I guess) but I got skunked on the Juan my first and third
day. Like I tell my Calculus kids; its simple if you know how, impossible if
you don't. For them who know the Juan, catching footballs there is
apparently trivial, as folks tell tales of hundreds of fish a day. I saw
some absolute newbies under the tutelage of a guide hauling out big fish
with every drift. It was humilating, but then again, what did *they* learn,
except how to catch fish on the Juan?

However, not knowing that you needed submicroscopic nymphs, where the 'hot
spots' were, what the local technique was, or where the 'better' fish were
merely meant that I had a great day fishing and figuring it out for myself,
which is what I like best about fishing. Personally, I hate things that
become 'popular' because all sorts of stupid artificial rules start coming
in. Suddenly, certain gear is de rigeur, other gear is 'square' or 'old
fashioned'. Even in the non fishing world, I hate that ****. Gotta have the
right shoes, the right haircut, the right car, gotta live in the right
neighborhood. Hey, its still rock-and-roll to me, I'd rather live my own
life.

Anyway, I doubt that I will ever fish the San Juan again. Too much 'local
knowledge' which tries to invalidate self-discovery. When Willi spent a day
figuring out how to catch those fat browns in that pond, he was fishing.
Anyone who spends a day figuring out how to catch the fish on the Juan is
considered a loser, especially if they fish the Kiddie Pool. Or shuffle
their feet, or cast nymphs behind them. Screw it, too many rules to that
place.

--riverman

Question about loop leaders?
 

On 18 Oct 2004 12:12:15 GMT, irate (Dave LaCourse) wrote:

riverman writes:

.rejecting some
locale because its 'too easy' or the 'fish are ugly' smacks of elitism.

No elitism involved, Myron. The fish in the Kiddie Hole are so beat up that I
know if you caught one, you would feel the same as I do.

You said you only caught one fish there, how do you know they are all beat up?
Like I said, I caught fish in what I think was the kiddie hole and *none* of
them were beat up. I don't think any of the ones Myron caught were either. I'm
sure some are, but certainly not all.
--
Charlie...

Question about loop leaders?
 

On 18 Oct 2004 12:12:15 GMT, irate (Dave LaCourse) wrote:

riverman writes:

.rejecting some
locale because its 'too easy' or the 'fish are ugly' smacks of elitism.

No elitism involved, Myron. The fish in the Kiddie Hole are so beat up that I
know if you caught one, you would feel the same as I do.

You said you only caught one fish there, how do you know they are all beat up?
Like I said, I caught fish in what I think was the kiddie hole and *none* of
them were beat up. I don't think any of the ones Myron caught were either. I'm
sure some are, but certainly not all.
--
Charlie...

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Myron writes:

snippage

Screw it, too many rules to that
place.

What you say is true. It is a difficult river to learn by yourself. The small
nymphs work best - 20 - 24. We had the pleasure of being shown the river by an
expert, roff's own Bruce Hopper (Bruiser). He introduced me to these tiny
little nymphs that worked like a magic charm. I have used them successfully on
other rivers.

But, then again, any new river is a challenge. It takes time and experience to
know where the fish are holding, what they want, and how to get it to them. I
don't think the SJ is unique to this problem.

Question about loop leaders?
 

On Mon, 18 Oct 2004 13:27:17 +0100, "riverman" wrote:

However, not knowing that you needed submicroscopic nymphs,

I showed you the size nymphs Bruce provided for us to use on the 1st day, you
just didn't believe me and wanted to use your own. g
--
Charlie...

Question about loop leaders?
 

On Mon, 18 Oct 2004 13:27:17 +0100, "riverman" wrote:

However, not knowing that you needed submicroscopic nymphs,

I showed you the size nymphs Bruce provided for us to use on the 1st day, you
just didn't believe me and wanted to use your own. g
--
Charlie...

Question about loop leaders?
 

rw wrote:

Warren wrote:

Dave, thanks again for getting me to Penn's. I will *always* be
grateful for you doing what you did and the thought of your deeds
being blasted in this forum really gives me a case of the red ass.


In that case, you shouldn't have bitched about it in earshot of a
half-dozen people.'


That was an "off ROFF" personal conversation like you pointed out to me
about a post I made that mentioned you.

Willi

Question about loop leaders?
 

rw wrote:

Warren wrote:

Dave, thanks again for getting me to Penn's. I will *always* be
grateful for you doing what you did and the thought of your deeds
being blasted in this forum really gives me a case of the red ass.


In that case, you shouldn't have bitched about it in earshot of a
half-dozen people.'


That was an "off ROFF" personal conversation like you pointed out to me
about a post I made that mentioned you.

Willi

Question about loop leaders?
 

Charlie Choc wrote:

On 17 Oct 2004 22:17:10 GMT, irate (Dave LaCourse) wrote:

Never said I saw someone standing in the same place all day. I did see two
guys standing at the head of the KH nymphing *down-stream*, and if you can't
figure out what they were doing, well......

And there are people that spin fish there too. Who cares??? As long as
they weren't shuffling, there's nothing illegal about fishing
downstream. I fish dries downstream quite a bit of the time on the
Juan. On some water types, that's the best way to make a good
presentation.

You don't like it, don't do it.

Willi

Question about loop leaders?
 

Charlie Choc wrote:

On 17 Oct 2004 22:17:10 GMT, irate (Dave LaCourse) wrote:

Never said I saw someone standing in the same place all day. I did see two
guys standing at the head of the KH nymphing *down-stream*, and if you can't
figure out what they were doing, well......

And there are people that spin fish there too. Who cares??? As long as
they weren't shuffling, there's nothing illegal about fishing
downstream. I fish dries downstream quite a bit of the time on the
Juan. On some water types, that's the best way to make a good
presentation.

You don't like it, don't do it.

Willi

Question about loop leaders?
 

Charlie Choc wrote:

On 17 Oct 2004 22:17:10 GMT, irate (Dave LaCourse) wrote:

The SJ isn't my favorite type of place to fish, but it wasn't as big a circus
as the hyperbole of you and those "of your ilk" had led me to believe it might
be.


In the Winter, much of that circus atmosphere is gone. We've had days
when our group had the river to ourselves.

Willi

Question about loop leaders?
 

Dave LaCourse wrote:


I never returned to the SJ because of the conditions. I have fished other
tailwaters and never saw the beat up fish that the SJ contains. I fished the
Big Horn and never caught a fish with lip sores or so defeated that it couldn't
fight.


What you saw is nothing unique. Fertile rivers that are heavily fished
will have fish setup below wading anglers. Some of the places I've seen
that are the Yellowstone in the Park, the Green, the Bighorn, the North
Platte, the South Platte etc. (Although Charlie may say they can't learn
- joke Charlie) fish are smart enough to make the association over time
that wading fishermen mean food.

Every heavily fished C&R water is going to have "scarred" up fish. The
more pressure and angler success, the more common this is. On all the
rivers I mentioned above, I've caught fish that had "scars" from being
hooked before (yes even the BIGHORN). On many heavily fished C&R rivers
the average fish is caught several times a season. Being hooked causes
some damage even from the most careful angler and from careless anglers????

Willi

Question about loop leaders?
 

Dave LaCourse wrote:


I never returned to the SJ because of the conditions. I have fished other
tailwaters and never saw the beat up fish that the SJ contains. I fished the
Big Horn and never caught a fish with lip sores or so defeated that it couldn't
fight.


What you saw is nothing unique. Fertile rivers that are heavily fished
will have fish setup below wading anglers. Some of the places I've seen
that are the Yellowstone in the Park, the Green, the Bighorn, the North
Platte, the South Platte etc. (Although Charlie may say they can't learn
- joke Charlie) fish are smart enough to make the association over time
that wading fishermen mean food.

Every heavily fished C&R water is going to have "scarred" up fish. The
more pressure and angler success, the more common this is. On all the
rivers I mentioned above, I've caught fish that had "scars" from being
hooked before (yes even the BIGHORN). On many heavily fished C&R rivers
the average fish is caught several times a season. Being hooked causes
some damage even from the most careful angler and from careless anglers????

Willi

Question about loop leaders?
 

On Mon, 18 Oct 2004 07:28:54 -0600, Willi & Sue wrote:

In the Winter, much of that circus atmosphere is gone. We've had days
when our group had the river to ourselves.

Assuming Delta keeps flying I'll be there in January. If nothing else, it will
be interesting to watch you and Bruce fish it.
--
Charlie...

Question about loop leaders?
 

On Mon, 18 Oct 2004 07:28:54 -0600, Willi & Sue wrote:

In the Winter, much of that circus atmosphere is gone. We've had days
when our group had the river to ourselves.

Assuming Delta keeps flying I'll be there in January. If nothing else, it will
be interesting to watch you and Bruce fish it.
--
Charlie...

Question about loop leaders?
 

riverman wrote:

... For them who know the Juan, catching footballs there is
apparently trivial, as folks tell tales of hundreds of fish a day. I saw
some absolute newbies under the tutelage of a guide hauling out big fish
with every drift. It was humilating, but then again, what did *they* learn,
except how to catch fish on the Juan?

Why would other people catching fish humiliate YOU ? I don't get it.
And they learned more than how to catch fish on the Juan. They learned
how to fish microscopic nymphs.

However, not knowing that you needed submicroscopic nymphs, where the 'hot
spots' were, what the local technique was, or where the 'better' fish were
merely meant that I had a great day fishing and figuring it out for myself,
which is what I like best about fishing. Personally, I hate things that
become 'popular' because all sorts of stupid artificial rules start coming
in. Suddenly, certain gear is de rigeur, other gear is 'square' or 'old
fashioned'. Even in the non fishing world, I hate that ****. Gotta have the
right shoes, the right haircut, the right car, gotta live in the right
neighborhood. Hey, its still rock-and-roll to me, I'd rather live my own
life.

Well, that's a nice enough rant but I think you're conflating totally
different things. I like to hire a guide the first time I visit new
waters, especially if I'm going to be there for a few days. And even
if I don't hire a guide I'll visit a local flyshop to buy a few flies
and chat up the locals trying to discover what's what. Now how that
gets conflated with having to have an Eddie Bauer Edition Ford Explorer
escapes me.

--
Ken Fortenberry

Question about loop leaders?
 

riverman wrote:

... For them who know the Juan, catching footballs there is
apparently trivial, as folks tell tales of hundreds of fish a day. I saw
some absolute newbies under the tutelage of a guide hauling out big fish
with every drift. It was humilating, but then again, what did *they* learn,
except how to catch fish on the Juan?

Why would other people catching fish humiliate YOU ? I don't get it.
And they learned more than how to catch fish on the Juan. They learned
how to fish microscopic nymphs.

However, not knowing that you needed submicroscopic nymphs, where the 'hot
spots' were, what the local technique was, or where the 'better' fish were
merely meant that I had a great day fishing and figuring it out for myself,
which is what I like best about fishing. Personally, I hate things that
become 'popular' because all sorts of stupid artificial rules start coming
in. Suddenly, certain gear is de rigeur, other gear is 'square' or 'old
fashioned'. Even in the non fishing world, I hate that ****. Gotta have the
right shoes, the right haircut, the right car, gotta live in the right
neighborhood. Hey, its still rock-and-roll to me, I'd rather live my own
life.

Well, that's a nice enough rant but I think you're conflating totally
different things. I like to hire a guide the first time I visit new
waters, especially if I'm going to be there for a few days. And even
if I don't hire a guide I'll visit a local flyshop to buy a few flies
and chat up the locals trying to discover what's what. Now how that
gets conflated with having to have an Eddie Bauer Edition Ford Explorer
escapes me.

--
Ken Fortenberry