"Jarmo Hurri" wrote in message I'm not
100% sure of what you're trying to say, but in any case this
sounds very weird. Say you make your backcast at one o'clock (line
again, not rod), while wanting to make the frontcast at 10
o'clock. How are you going to get the rod loaded in the first place
during the forward cast? After the backcast the line will first go
up. If you start your forward cast directly from there, you can't get
the weight of the line against the rod. If you wait until the line is
at the right "level" it will no longer be straight but a puddle.

Or did I misunderstand this completely?

I've read a couple of books on casting, and I think that in those book
"pretty much everyone" thinks exactly the opposite. ;-)

--
Jarmo Hurri

There is a slight drift at the end of the backcast from 1:00 which allows
you to load the rod properly. You can either turn your head to see this, or
more experienced casters can feel it.
Next time you cast, try it with short line out (35ft) watch the tip of your
rod...you should see a slight drift on your backcast.
-tom

On Tue, 8 Feb 2005 16:45:48 +0100, "riverman" wrote:

His point (which I will let
him expand on here shortly, I'm sure) is that the line will move away
perpendicular to whatever direction you stop the rod, and will load up when
it hits the end, regardless of what direction the following front cast sends
it.

The line will move in the direction the rod *tip* was traveling when you did
the "speed up and stop". That is an important distinction to make.
--
Charlie...
http://www.chocphoto.com/ - photo galleries
http://www.chocphoto.com/roff

"riverman" wrote in message
...
"Wayne Knight" wrote in message
ps.com...
riverman wrote:
Thats true, but having a good clear backcast doesn't hurt. Anyway, at
the
time I was a medicre caster
(stuff snipped)

Wayne wrote:
Grasshopper, if you make a hard stop at the 12:00 position on the
backcast, this will often cause your back cast to go straight up,
sometimes referred to as a steeple cast. Of more import on the forward
cast is the ability to generate line speed and shoot the line. WF lines
are better for this and a single haul often helps.

As far as covering more water and getting nothing forward, you have
proved once again the ability to mend and control your line while
stream fishing is more important than the ability to boom a cast
regardless of the distance to your target.

Riverman wrote:
Charlie Choc and I had this discussion at the SJMiniClave last year (just
he
and I for a coupla days). I'm familiar with the steeple cast, and employ
it
often when I have trees hard against my back on streams and there is too
much interference on the water for a roll cast, but even at my
intermediate
level of casting, I can not get as good a load on the rod with that as I
can
with a regular backcast. And my effective casting distance is about half,
at
best.
Charlie and I were discussing the relationship between the direction of
the
line during the backcast in comparison to the frontcast. He says (as does
pretty much everyone) that its irrelevant, as the line moves away from
your
rod perpendicular to whatever direction it was going when it stopped, with
no loss of loading. I thought that there was something about this that
must
disobey the rules about momentum and moment arm. The challenge we gave
ourselves was to make a V-shaped cast; where the line went up at 2:00 on
the
backcast, and up at 10:00 on the forward cast. I found that it just didn't
work that well...there were loops and the end of the line flopped every
which way. However, if the backcast is directly opposite the forward cast:
3:00 and 9:00 (note: these are the directions the LINE is going, not the
rod), then there is a more complete loading of the rod on the backcast,
and
a cleaner, further forward cast.
Your thoughts, Master?
--riverm-H^H^H^H^grasshopper

Riverman,
I suggest a book called " The Essence of Flycasting"
by Mel Krieger. (ISBN: 0-944169-02-3)
DaveMohnsen
Denver
(missed you guys by a week or so last summer on the San Juan. Would have
been fun to watch you guys going through the drill you mentioned with
casting. :) I suspect Charlie knows a bit about it, in a lot of different
conditions, and in a lot of different waters. Uhh . . .read the book, or
get the video, practice, and then fish with Charlie again)

Hi Wayne:
What you experienced in your V-cast attempts--eg. line flop, loops,
etc.--was normal and to be expected. Basically, you attempted to alter
the frontcast direction when compared to the backcast direction and
which can't be done with much success. Instead, begin your backcast in
a direction that is 180 degrees from your intended target. For
example, if your target is at 2 o'clock, you should attempt to throw
your backcast toward 8 o'clock. In this way, you maximize angular
momentum and increase the amount of loading on your rod for longer and
more-precise casts.

As for restricted backcasts or where they aren't possible at all AND
for a quick change of direction of up to about 90 degrees, you might
want to learn and then try a one-handed spey cast, that is, a spey cast
done with a single-handed rod. It works great in close quarters and
allows you to quickly reposition the fly with a minimum of casting
strokes. Add a haul on the forwardcast and you can get pretty decent
results distancewise too!!

Tight lines!

riverman Its no suprise that this sounds strange to you, Jarmo, as
riverman the materials you sent me were my primary source in
riverman assessing Charlie's ascertations.

Now that I understand what you're talking about this does not sound
strange at all. (I guess the word "irrelevant" caused all the
confusion.) There are all kinds of casts where the standard casting
plane is broken.

One of the casts I practiced a couple of years ago was such that first
you make consecutive side casts with your palm up (along the direction
of the river, for example). Then on the final forward cast you turn
your thumb up (reel down) and direct the cast across the river:

http://www.sexyloops.com/flycasting/tsidecasting.shtml

--
Jarmo Hurri

Commercial email countermeasures included in header email
address. Remove all garbage from header email address when replying,
or just use .

Charlie Choc wrote:
On Tue, 8 Feb 2005 16:45:48 +0100, "riverman" wrote:


His point (which I will let
him expand on here shortly, I'm sure) is that the line will move away
perpendicular to whatever direction you stop the rod, and will load up when
it hits the end, regardless of what direction the following front cast sends
it.


The line will move in the direction the rod *tip* was traveling when you did
the "speed up and stop". That is an important distinction to make.

The *end* of the line, aka the fly, will go where the rod tip
was pointing during the power stroke, but if you move the rod
tip after that, the rest of the line will follow. This is the
reach cast, used when you want to put the line upstream of the
fly when casting over a current.

--
Ken Fortenberry

riverman wrote:

Your thoughts, Master?


I think:

1. You should pay more attention to what Charlie is saying, I think you
misunderstand the dyanmics of the cast. Charilie is right about the tip
direction.

2. Next time you are in civilization, you need to take your rods to a
well stocked fly shop and try some different lines, including maybe one
weight up or down, your rods should load *as well* at the 12:00
position, 11:00 position, or the 9:00 position.

3. Both Kreh and Jaworski have stated longer casts benefit from longer
strokes so your rationale that you cast farther using a 9:00 stop
versus an 11:00 stop makes sense.

4. If after doing #2, you don't find improvement, I would be looking at
the rods and trying different models and makers to find the one that
*fits* you. This of course involves spending money you may or may not
have but may help you in the long run. Most folks know that I love
Winston rods generically speaking. But what most people don't know is
that I found the Winston LT five weight to be one of the worse rods
ever made because how I cast and how that rod cast could not mesh. Most
folks I know fishing the LT love them.

5. Practice change of direction casts, practice using your backcast as
your forward cast. They are ackward, but things that can make your
success rate better. One of the hardest things for me to learn was to
do what jarmo was talking about casting parallel to the river then
changing direction perpendicular. Try moving your rod tip to the left
and righ as you practice your final forward cast and watch how the fly
line moves in relationship to the tippet end.

6. Pay more attention to what Charlie stated. You want your fly to go
in a certain direction, then you gots to point the rod tip in the right
place.

And Grasshopper, I am no master, if you want a master ask Mike or post
this on the Fly Fisherman website, at least three masters post there
regularly.

On 8 Feb 2005 09:07:06 -0800, "Wayne Knight" wrote:

3. Both Kreh and Jaworski have stated longer casts benefit from longer
strokes so your rationale that you cast farther using a 9:00 stop
versus an 11:00 stop makes sense.

I think you are better off with a 10 o'clock stop and letting the rod drift
back to 9 o'clock for that. You get the longer forward stroke with less risk
of having the rod tip starting down when you stop.
--
Charlie...
http://www.chocphoto.com/ - photo galleries
http://www.chocphoto.com/roff

Charlie Choc wrote:
I think you are better off with a 10 o'clock stop and letting the rod
drift
back to 9 o'clock for that. You get the longer forward stroke with
less risk
of having the rod tip starting down when you stop.


I rarely consiously stop at 9 when going for a longer cast. i stop and
the 10 position and lengthen my arm rather than keeping things tucked
in close. If I stop at 9 with a long back cast, i'm picking flowers for
the spouse.

JackL@EpicOdyssey wrote:

Hi Wayne:

[more good advise snipped.]

Jack meet Myron. Myron meet Jack ,g