Fishing - Merry Christmas!

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Merry Christmas!

rw wrote:
Karl S wrote:

However, Christmas is in fact the celebration of the birth of Jesus,
the Christ. The salvation of mankind is worth celebrating.

Where do Santa Claus and the reindeer (including Rudolph) and the elves
and Mrs. Santa Claus fit into this Jesus thing?

They don't, generally speaking. Santa got his start with a kindly German
priest who became known as "Saint Nicholas". He had a tradition of
bringing toys to the children of his town on Christmas. The rest of it,
elves and the North Pole and all that, were just fun tales to entertain
children. In short, the pop culture that has been wrapped around
Christmas is all about pleasing children, and personally I see no
problem with that at all.

Easter is the preeminent Christian holiday (although the Easter Bunny is
gaining ground). One Christian holiday is quite enough for me to ignore.
Christmas belongs to pop culture.

Why should you or I care how somebody else celebrates a holiday?

Karl S.

Merry Christmas!

Karl S wrote:
rw wrote:

Where do Santa Claus and the reindeer (including Rudolph) and the
elves and Mrs. Santa Claus fit into this Jesus thing?

They don't, generally speaking. Santa got his start with a kindly German
priest who became known as "Saint Nicholas". He had a tradition of
bringing toys to the children of his town on Christmas. The rest of it,
elves and the North Pole and all that, were just fun tales to entertain
children. In short, the pop culture that has been wrapped around
Christmas is all about pleasing children, and personally I see no
problem with that at all.
......
Why should you or I care how somebody else celebrates a holiday?

There is little doubt that the modern "pop-culture" Christmas does as
much as anything to inculcate in American children the rapacious,
insatiable consumerism that leads us to.... well, among other things, to
wage unprovoked wars of aggression in order to keep the mindless
consumption running strong....

(a part of the Gospels I evidently missed)....

JR

Merry Christmas!

"Karl S" wrote in message
t...

...Why should you or I care how somebody else celebrates a holiday?

Ah! So, you DO see the point........at long last.

Wolfgang
who doubts it.......but there's that native generosity of spirit at work
again. :(

Merry Christmas!

David Snedeker wrote:
"Karl S" wrote in message
t...

Wolfgang wrote:

"Karl S" wrote in message
...

Stan Gula wrote:

I call bull****.
Here's some details:
http://www.simpletoremember.com/vita...eRealStory.htm

The Roman Saturnalia celebration predates Christianity, and the Romans
actually stole (errr, adopted) the idea from the Greeks who called it
Sacaea. And the Greeks stole it from Babylon where it was called

Zagmuk.

The solstice was celebrated in Babylon 4,000 years before Christ and a
lot
of the 'Christmas traditions' have been handed down from the ancient
past.
Note that Zagmuk is very similar to Zagnut, a wicked fine candy bar,
which
has been made for over 75 years which predates most of us. Not that

that

relates to Christmas at all, except that if somebody wanted to buy me a
reasonable priced candy bar for a present, well, hint, hint, wink,

wink.

Gonna open a nice bottle of port tomorrow to toast "Longer Days!".

I said "widely popular holidays", Stan.

What percentage of the world today celebrates Saturnalia? Sacaea?

Zagmuk?

The Solstice? The most popular runner-up would be Chanukah or Hanukkah,
whichever spelling you prefer, but that is a rather minor celebration of
the Jewish faith which is widely recognized only because it occurs in

the

same part of the year as Christmas.
Forgotten celebrations to dead religions really don't count as a basis

for

a holiday season.
It doesn't even really matter that Christmas is near the solstice.
If Christmas happened in July, the holiday season would be in July.
And December would be only a time of waiting for New Year's Day.

You sort of missed the point, Karl. Christmas couldn't happen in
July......the winter solstice......get it? Most of the world pays

attention

to the winter solstice in one way or another, and celebrates Saturnalia,
Sacaea, Zagmuk, Christmas, Chanukah or whatever.......and has since
antiquity.....they just change the name and the idols periodically. The
Christians merely borrowed from a variety of creation myths (as did the
Jews.....and the Romans......and others.....before them) and stuck some

of

their own window dressing on it. Their major problem was that they

weren't

real good with calendars........or at making up their minds for that

matter.

They missed the solstice.....and they still can't decide whether or not

they

like the vernal equinox (about the timing of which they are equally
uncertain).....the whole death and rebirth (resurrection, blah,

blah....you

know, Easter) better than the solstice. See, the old year

dies.....cosmic

significance and all that.....right? But when does it begin anew?
Hm......is it when they days start to get longer?......or is it when the
grass starts to grow again? Well, what the hell......let's start it

both

times! Can't lose! :)

Wolfgang
i mean, does ANYBODY really still believe that december 25th marks an
important birthday?

I'm sorry Wolfgang, but you are not missing - but rather, ignoring - the
point.

Christmas could indeed be any time of the year, because it seems nobody
really knows the exact date of Jesus' birth. That it was set in December
was a slightly shameful political decision taken a long time ago, that
is true. Mankind, even well-meaning scholarly types, can get political.

However, Christmas is in fact the celebration of the birth of Jesus, the
Christ. The salvation of mankind is worth celebrating.

You will of course continue to ignore this, for the sheer malicious fun
of it. By all means do so, for this time of year is the hatching season
for Christ-haters, if that is how you celebrate the winter solstice.
By the way, celebrate it today.

Not on the 25th. That's Christmas.

Karl S.

Merry Christmas to you Karl and all Christians. Just ignore all this stuff
and enjoy the holiday for whatever reasons and meanings it has to you.

As someone who regularly offends, I have an idea how disconcerting some of
our dark humor, and history etc can be, but don't take it personally. The
deal isn't usually that folks "hate" Christ, or want to kill him: The deal
is that while many admire some of the teachings attributed to Christ the
man, not everyone worships him as a god. In fact, just as some Christians
have a problem with the cult of Mary, some monotheists (who share your
belief in Jehovah, the Father-God), kinda look upon some of the Christian
stuff as a Jesus cult.

Anyway Merry Christmas, and please don't make too much of the static; its
just a way to pass thru what I think even you will admit can be a pretty
heavy dose of commercialized time.

Dave
Some of my best friends are Christians and Jews and Muslims, you know, the
Desert Churches. I will toast all their holidays, Prophets and God around
the fire tonight.

Thank you for your sensible words, David. We all know that Christmas has
become commercialized, in much the way a ship becomes encrusted with
barnacles.
That's kind of a sad thing, but it's how people are.
But, all of that tinsel and plastic is not Christmas. Christmas is still
there, underneath it all, sacred and holy.
As for my use of the word "hate"? Pardon the term, but I have
reluctantly become convinced that it is factual. How else can one
explain the annual attacks upon, of all things, a holiday? If nothing
else, a long weekend off work, with pay?

Karl S.

Merry Christmas!

"Karl S" wrote in message
...

Thank you for your sensible words, David. We all know that Christmas has
become commercialized, in much the way a ship becomes encrusted with
barnacles.

"Holy Days", holidays, feast days.....whatever one wishes to call
them.....have always been important factors in the economies of the cultures
that celebrate them. Your metaphor is as inapt as it is hackneyed.
Barnacles slow a ship; commerce is the very lifeblood of civilization.
Remove the commercialization of Christmas (not yet a venerable
tradition.....but getting close) and you're back to being a minority sect of
cranks seeking immolation. O.k. with me if that's what you want (and it
appears to be), but please do try to prearrange for someone to clean up the
mess.

That's kind of a sad thing,

Civilization is a sad thing? Really? You should see the alternative.

but it's how people are.

All too few of them. Most are trying to scratch a living from the
smoldering embers left in the wake of the enlightened.

But, all of that tinsel and plastic is not Christmas.

True enough. The real message of Christmas is death.....everlasting
flames.....torture.....napalmed children.....crusades.....witch
hunts....autodafe.....charnel houses.....the rack....terrorist
recruitment......the list goes on and on and on and on...........

Christmas is still there, underneath it all, sacred and holy.

Well, isn't that just precious?

As for my use of the word "hate"? Pardon the term, but I have reluctantly
become convinced that it is factual.

Reluctantly? Bull****. You suck it up. It's what you came here for. And
you haven't got the common decency to say "thank you".

How else can one explain the annual attacks upon, of all things, a
holiday?

There are many ways.....but you wouldn't be interested.

If nothing else, a long weekend off work, with pay?

Ah! More time to dream up new eternal tortures for infant sinners!
:)

Wolfgang
who notices that old warm and fuzzy feeling creeping up again.

Merry Christmas!

Wayne Harrison wrote to the wise man from the land of cheese and adventu
yfitons
wayno(and a little advice with the ladies would also be gratefully
received)

I call bull**** for the second time this week.

*|:-)}

Merry Christmas!

"Wayne Harrison" wrote in message
.. .

...one of these days, george, you are gonna have to sit down with me on a
stream in the u.p. and carefully explain the meaning of life.

Wouldn't do any good. Well, hasn't for me anyway. I mean, I really believe
he's doing his best, but every time we get together he explains it
all......and it makes perfect sense at the time.....but as soon as I get in
the car and back on the road.....and start thinking about ROFF.....my eyes
kind of glaze over.......and it's all gone. :(

Still, it's fun to listen. C'mon up in September; if George leaves anything
out, Joel will fill in all the nasty details. :)

yfitons
wayno(and a little advice with the ladies would also be gratefully
received)

Good luck. The ******* NEVER shares that! :(

Wolfgang

Merry Christmas!

On Wed, 21 Dec 2005 07:41:55 -0500, Charlie Choc
wrote:

(snipped)

Since Christmas is on Sunday this year a couple of the largest churches in the
Atlanta area will be closed so their employees and parishioners can celebrate
"in their own way".

I remember reading that in some news a week or so ago. It was so odd,
and so difficult to believe, that it absolutely slipped my mind.

Seems that Christmas Eve has become the big church day of the season
for churches. I can see that they'd cut their Christmas day
ceremonies down to just a couple of before noon ones, but to cut out
all services because it falls on a Sunday is mind boggling.

It's Sunday, for (literally) Christ's sake. Do they believe in Sunday
services or not? They have a double holy day going and they're going
to go home and watch Dicken's Christmas Carol or a football game on TV
instead of giving a service and communion? How can they sluff
(slough?) that stuff off on their parishioners? If there is even one
church member who wishes to attend an ordinary Sunday service and take
communion, why aren't they given the chance to do so?

Yeah, it's just a rant, as I have no official religion any more. I
just like to see groups and people make an attempt to live up to the
principles they espouse, especially if they espouse them for the
entire rest of the world.

You should hear me go on when I see some supposedly patriotic American
displaying a dirty tattered flag as if he / she were doing the
American thing.

Cyli
r.bc: vixen. Minnow goddess. Speaker to squirrels.
Often taunted by trout. Almost entirely harmless.

http://www.visi.com/~cyli
email: lid (strip the .invalid to email)