ff in Cuba
 

On Jan 3, 8:19*pm, Dave LaCourse wrote:


You know I am thinking you live in a bubble of your own making . . .
have you been watching or listening to the reporting coming from the
ground assault? Here is a clue which might just enable you to answer
your own question: Most of the rockets are fired from open areas.
Would you like the Pallies to stand around and wait for the counter-
fire?

The Israeli air attacks have focused on public administration and
police sites. The "civilian casualties" reported in our media do not
include killed police and public employees and their families which
are reported as "Hamas militants" killed so that puppies like you can
still parrot nonsense. That is why the bombing has been directed at
public facilities like the Ministry of Education, various Mosques,
police stations, hospitals etc etc. as well as apartment houses where
Hamas families live. The drones have been waiting for ambulances to go
to strike sites and then rocketing the ambulances.

Only today did the IDF go after the launchers sites with their
artillery barrage, not before in earnest. Could that be why the
rockets have continued all last week? Duhhhhhh. You could have learned
that from the Israeli media or even the American media.

David

ff in Cuba
 

On Jan 3, 8:19*pm, Dave LaCourse wrote:
On Sat, 3 Jan 2009 19:29:56 -0800 (PST), DaveS
wrote:

Both Israel and Palestine have a right to exist

EXACTLY. *Why won't Hamas say that Israel has the right to exist?

We are not talking about the west bank, we WERE talking about Gaza.
Correct?

So, if we are talking about Gaza, can you tell me why the Hamas
terrorists do not fire there rockets from the northeast corner of
Gaza? *There is nothing there to hurt if Israel bombs the site.
Follow the border from the northeast down to the southeast corner of
Gaza. *There is nothing, NOTHING within 500 ft of the border. *Why
doesn't Hamas use this area to fire their rockets/mortars? *Rhetorical
quetion - we know why: *Because the press would not satisfy what Hamas
wants, and that is Palestinians killed. *

Read the ****ing map/sattelite picture, David. *There is so much room,
so much unpopulated areas in Gaza that you could take the Sixth Fleet
our of the water and place the ships within Gaza and STILL have mucho
room to hide mortars/rocket pads without endangering the civilian
population. *

Face it, David, you HATE Israel and want to see her defeated. *Nothing
would please you more than to see the Jews lose lives over a fight in
Gaza. *Do you pray that they will be defeated? *Is your hatred that
great?

Read the ****in' map I sent you. *Why cannot Hamos place there rockets
outside of populated areas? *WHY?

http://maps.google.com/maps?source=i..._ENUS261&q=gaz...

Zoom in to 200ft/100mtrs scale, and tell me why can not Hamas put
their offensive weapons in the farmlands, orchards, deserts, along the
border, instead of placing them in populated areas? *Only MADMEN would
place offensive weapons amongst the population. *Only MADMEN *would
want civilians killed.

My God, David, but you have got this all wrong. *Think, man, think,
what Hamas is doing. *

Dave

David your big presumption is that most of the rockets are not fired
from open areas. I hope this is not going to be one of those "special
$50k data analysis" type of special sources , because the only video
I've seen of firings seem to be in relatively open areas. So I would
be interested on some cool site you've found that shows the allocation
and location of the Hamas launcher organization. Bet your boots.
Yessiree.

But then I also have some feel for the scale and size of these Gaza
"farm areas." Those "farms" are tiny! Get real. Its more than 200 ft
between me and my closest neighbor on one side, and being a fan of
the "unsafe and insane" variety of export grade Chinese explosives
courtesy of the Suquamish Tribe, I have a rough sense of the effects
of nearby detonations. Simply put, one little GTG rocket from an F-16
would take out the folks in both houses. My point is that as packed in
as they are in Gaza, you shoot and the chances of hitting something
are pretty high wherever you aim kinda level.

Fact is David, neither me or you know anything about where Hamas might
be putting its launchers.

Dave

ff in Cuba
 

On Sat, 3 Jan 2009 20:43:35 -0800 (PST), rb608
wrote:

I also believe it is
of greater immorality for Israel to intentionally kill those
civilians.

Joe, Israel has the obligation to protect her citizens. What is she
to do? Sit by and let ten - twenty rockets/day rain down on innocent
people? The weapons that are being used by Israel are "smart". They
can be guided to hit a gnat's ass. Israel is not "intentionally"
killing civilians. The blame here must be shared with Hamas. It is
Hama, however, that are intentionally placing their weapons to put the
civilians in harms way.

Dave

ff in Cuba
 

On Sat, 3 Jan 2009 21:02:04 -0800 (PST), DaveS
wrote:

Most of the rockets are fired from open areas.

That's bull ****, David. I watched live the launching of several
missles from the middle of a city, and then Israeli's reply.

Like I said, you could put the Sixth Fleet in the unpopulated areas of
Gaza. There is no need to fire those missles from the populated area.
No reason except for good press.

Go Israel, Survive

Dave, RWC

ff in Cuba
 

On Sat, 3 Jan 2009 22:26:31 -0800 (PST), DaveS
wrote:

Fact is David, neither me or you know anything about where Hamas might
be putting its launchers.

Sorry, David, but everytime I see Hamas launch a missle on TV, I see
it coming from the middle of a city (highly populated area).

http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&tab=wl&q=gaza

Zoom into 2000ft (20 mm scale) and measure the distance from the
northwest border to the nearest small town. You'll find it is about
than two miles. The same is true for the southwest corner (note the
destroyed airfield), and the distance to the nearest town is two
miles. Like I said, you can put a whole bunch of munitions, including
the Sixth Fleet, in these areas.

Face it. Hamas gets no GOOD press if they don't launch from the
cities. Regardless how carefull the Israeli's are, people, innocent
people, are going to die. I don't like that any more than you do, but
Hamas *doesn't care*. If your anti-Israeli ideology can not see that,
then you are lost, David, lost, completely blinded by the Hamas
propaganda.

Go Israel, Survive

Dave, RWC

ff in Cuba
 

On Jan 4, 8:21*am, Dave LaCourse wrote:
Joe, Israel has the obligation to protect her citizens. *What is she
to do? *Sit by and let ten - twenty rockets/day rain down on innocent
people? *The weapons that are being used by Israel are "smart". *They
can be guided to hit a gnat's ass. *

Yes, but they kill everything within 50 yards of that gnat's ass,
including a lot of innocent people. What do they do? Damned if I
know; but in separating the moral from the military, I know that
considering the killing of innocent families as acceptable collateral
damage is immoral.

Israel is not "intentionally"
killing civilians. *The blame here must be shared with Hamas. *It is
Hama, however, that are intentionally placing their weapons to put the
civilians in harms way.

Sorry, but splitting hairs over intent doesn't work for me. Hamas is
intentionally killing civilians. That is wrong. Israel is
intentionally firing into occupied areas and buildings knowing that
civilians will be killed. That's just as "intentional" by my
reckoning.

Here's what I think. If a Palestinian sniper were firing from a large
building in Jerusalem full of Israeli citizens, Israel would not
respond by blowing up the building; but they seem to have no problem
with it if the buildings are full of Palestinians. Tell me how that's
not racist and immoral?

It's ****ed up, except that Israel has bigger and more accurate
weapons; despite which, they are creating more extremists than they
are killing while innocents pay the price. I'm as sympathetic as
anyone to Israel's right to exist and its security concerns, but
they're doing themselves no favors by responding to Hamas in this
manner. This isn't about Israel; it's about hawkish political leaders
on both sides solidifying their positions with the deaths of innocent
people.

Joe F.

ff in Cuba
 

On Sun, 4 Jan 2009 06:12:05 -0800 (PST), rb608
wrote:

This isn't about Israel; it's about hawkish political leaders
on both sides solidifying their positions with the deaths of innocent
people.

Tell that to Snedeker.

I agree totally with what you say, but it is just not acceptable for
Israel to stand by and let these rockets kill innocent Jews. These
rockets are anti-personel, i.e., they are charged with large amounts
of shrapnel. They aren't meant to knock down a house, but to kill its
inhabitants.

It seems Hamas is close to a cease fire agreement. It's funny,
because Israel will automatically cease fire if Hamas does. They do
not need a treaty to do it. Don't fire on Israel and she won't fire
back. Simple. Solution: Get rid of Hamas.

Dave

ff in Cuba
 

On Jan 4, 9:23*am, Dave LaCourse wrote:
*Solution: *Get rid of Hamas.

That's fine, but only a small and symbolic piece of the puzzle. If we
start with that, we also need to get rid of the hawks within Israel.
Then we need to get rid of the attitudes on both sides that the other
people are less worthy of life than their own. Then maybe build some
trust and cooperation. None of which can be accomplished at the point
of a gun.

Joe F.

"What difference does it make to the dead, the orphans, and the
homeless, whether the mad destruction is wrought under the name of
totalitarianism or the holy name of liberty or democracy?" -Mohandas
K. Gandhi

ff in Cuba
 

On Sun, 4 Jan 2009 06:46:03 -0800 (PST), rb608
wrote:

On Jan 4, 9:23*am, Dave LaCourse wrote:
*Solution: *Get rid of Hamas.

That's fine, but only a small and symbolic piece of the puzzle. If we
start with that, we also need to get rid of the hawks within Israel.
Then we need to get rid of the attitudes on both sides that the other
people are less worthy of life than their own. Then maybe build some
trust and cooperation. None of which can be accomplished at the point
of a gun.

Joe F.

"What difference does it make to the dead, the orphans, and the
homeless, whether the mad destruction is wrought under the name of
totalitarianism or the holy name of liberty or democracy?" -Mohandas
K. Gandhi

Joe, believe me, I could not agree more. Senseless suicide bombers,
senseless assinations are not the way to go, but yet.....

Unfortunately there has never been a day of peace in my life.
Somewhere someone is killing another in the name of their God,
ideology, or greed. I doubt there has been a day of peace since the
beginning of recorded history. There will always be a Hitler, Pol
Pot, Stalin, etc. There will always be hate and disagreement. Call
my a cynic, but I have no faith whatsover in my fellow man living
peacefully with his neighbor.

Dave EOT for me.

ff in Cuba
 

In article , Dave LaCourse
writes
On Sat, 3 Jan 2009 20:43:35 -0800 (PST), rb608
wrote:

I also believe it is
of greater immorality for Israel to intentionally kill those
civilians.

Joe, Israel has the obligation to protect her citizens. What is she
to do? Sit by and let ten - twenty rockets/day rain down on innocent
people? The weapons that are being used by Israel are "smart". They
can be guided to hit a gnat's ass. Israel is not "intentionally"
killing civilians. The blame here must be shared with Hamas. It is
Hama, however, that are intentionally placing their weapons to put the
civilians in harms way.

Dave



If a wasp lands on your arm to sting you, you swat it!

QED
--
Bill Grey