"No surprise that life's road can feel different . . . in crappyshoes
 

On Jan 4, 4:20*pm, David LaCourse wrote:
On 2010-01-04 14:48:33 -0500, DaveS said:





On Jan 4, 5:10*am, David LaCourse wrote:

No, that is what he is saying. *However, from my experience, he is
wrong (at least here in the left wingnut state of Massachusetts). *I
work in a food pantry and I've yet to meet someone like Dave has
described. *Most of our clients have been coming to the pantry for
years. *There has been new ones in the past year, but they are the
working poor, and from talking with them, I doubt any are Republicans
let alone conservatives.

Most of the volunteers did not vote for Obama. *All of the clients
probably did vote for Obama.

Dave

- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Well OK
1. No I am not saying that a disproportionate number of conservatives
are going to food banks. How could I know that? Maybe we have
different definitions of proportionate? For me, it would mean that a
higher proportion (%) of the total universe of conservatives are
coming to food banks, THAN the proportion (%) of the universe of
others who come to food banks.
2. What I am saying is that based on my experiences in the past, and
some current observations and info, I believe that a larger number of
people with conservative political beliefs are coming to food banks
(and other human services) than do in non recessionary times.

Could be true, *I guess. *But, in my experience looking over the past
year most of the new clients at the food bank I volunteer at are the
working poor, blue collar workers, not your typical conservative. *This
is also true at three or four other food banks/pantries in the area
that I am familiar with, including one in a well-to-do community.

And . . .
3. Again from experience, not survey or experiment, these folk are
typically new comers to needing assistance and are often very
emotional, sometimes hostile and demanding, and rarely but regularly
threatening. Its hard times and they are not used to asking for help.

I have experienced many new comers to the food pantry and all find it
humiliating. *A single black mom, very well dressed, came in about two
months ago for the first time. She took her number and had a seat in
the corner were she silently cried. *She had been employed in a well
paying job from the looks of her clothes, and during a conversation I
got the feeling she was obviously educated. *I talked with her in
private and tried to assure her that there was no shame in asking for
help and that it would only be temporary in her case. * Others also
seemed humiliated and embarrassed by the experience. *And, yes, I would
be too.

4. Hello, I was responding to Beanster's characterization that libs
typically walk by a beaten man and are more concerned with criminals
than victims. Rightwingers love those kind of jokes which imply that
wingnuts are stand-up heroes, without actually helping anybody.
Bonhoeffer called stuff like this "cheap grace." I think.

Well, to begin with, to have "grace" they would need to be Christian. *
I'm not arguing with Bonhoeffer, but I believe a true Christian is a
loving person, willing to give back with his/her time, treasures, and
talents. *There is no "cheap grace". *You can't earn grace, and
although good works are not necessary, every Christian I know does some
sort of extra work and is generous with his/her time and money. *As far
as making a joke about libs walking past a beaten man...... well, that
attitude, true or false, had to start somewhere. *I once heard a women
friend in the singing group I once belonged to say that she felt sorry
for this particular criminal who had killed someone. *She said he was a
"product of his environment." *She showed no such pity for the innocent
person killed as we talked about the crime. *I have seen this same
attitude at a national level. *Can't recall the name of the guilty
person in jail, but he was black, "a product of his environment", was
found guilty by overwhelming evidence, yet the liberal press and
hollywood types *demanded* he be let go. *I think that there is a
history of such things happening. *I grew up dirt poor. *I was NOT a
product of my environment. *No one is. *We all have choices in life.



Side note: By the way, Working poor people are not somehow immune to
voting R or immune to conservative political belief, particularly
around issues like abortion, unionization, etc.. Karl Rove sure knew
that in the 2004 Ohio election, and wasn't there this Reagan fellow
who . . . .

No they aren't. *But the poor I see on a daily basis are 100% Obamites,
and the "change" they want is more entitlements. *I know, I know,
someone will brand me as a bigoted blowhard ******* for having said
that, but it is the truth. *They truly need help, but many have made
bad decisions and continue to make more bad decisions, and ride the
system for all it's worth. *They are happy with their lives, afaik, and
wouldn't change if it meant working for what they get.



Since to your knowledge no conservative has come into the food pantry
where you volunteer, to ask for assistance or acted emotionally, you
apparently have touched the elephant in a different place. ;+))

Well, it all depends on one's perspective, but that has been my
experience, Dave. *One must also remember that being a conservative
does not automatically mean that person is a Republican. *I grew very
poor and my parents were conservative Democrats. *d;o) (After thought: *
I doubt my parents, if alive, would today vote Democrat. *Their
Democrat party has changed. *It is not the party today of JFK. *
Remember the first thing he did when he became prez? *I will never
forget - he gave everyone a very nice tax break. *More money to spend
meant more income for the government.)



Dave
By the way the most hostile and demanding laid off people in my
experience base were defense workers, engineers and middle managers.
The most appreciative, positive and eager to retrain (?) . . . people
like laid off sawmill workers in Snoqualemie and paper workers out on
the Coast. *And all these groups got (get?)enhanced services, and
deeper support. You figure.

Hmmmm. *Well, I know of two 6 figure friends, both engineers, who have
been unemployed for awhile (one for almost two years). *They are both
in their 50s, would accept under-paid positions, and both have been
retrained, one as a truck driver. *Neither has given up hope of finding
a job. *One, married to a working nurse, is slowly spending his 401K
and has moved into a smaller home. *They'll survive.

You and I, Dave, are very fortunate. *I count my blessings daily, and
I'm sure you do too.

Dave

Good god, you are an idiot.

And a pig.

And a liar.

g.
well, yeah, not necessarily in that order.

"No surprise that life's road can feel different . . . in crappy shoes
 

On 2010-01-04 19:28:01 -0500, "Tom Littleton" said:


"David LaCourse" wrote in message
news:201001041720588930-dplacourse@aolcom...
No they aren't. But the poor I see on a daily basis are 100% Obamites,
and the "change" they want is more entitlements.

sure they do......sigh


someone will brand me as a bigoted blowhard ******* for having said that

why should they bother, when your own words do it themselves.

Tom
p.s. David, you shouldn't try to divine the thoughts of those who you
clearly don't understand.

Tom, I see and deal with the people. They are pathetic. Most of them
have become dependent on food stamps, welfare, gov housing, food
pantries, etc. Some are *third* generation welfare cases. Three
generations of no progress. It's like we have thrown away these
people. And they DO expect more from Obama. And I don't give a ****
what you think or say about the subject. I live it. I see them. I
hug them or shake their hand. The past three years have been a big eye
opener for me.

Jo and I move to Georgia on Thursday. We both plan to do the same
thing down there.

Go kiss some more ass, Tom. It'll make you feel better.

Dave

"No surprise that life's road can feel different . . . in crappy shoes
 

On 2010-01-04 21:30:04 -0500, Giles said:

On Jan 4, 4:20*pm, David LaCourse wrote:
On 2010-01-04 14:48:33 -0500, DaveS said:





On Jan 4, 5:10*am, David LaCourse wrote:

No, that is what he is saying. *However, from my experience, he is
wrong (at least here in the left wingnut state of Massachusetts). *I
work in a food pantry and I've yet to meet someone like Dave has
described. *Most of our clients have been coming to the pantry for
years. *There has been new ones in the past year, but they are the
working poor, and from talking with them, I doubt any are Republicans
let alone conservatives.

Most of the volunteers did not vote for Obama. *All of the clients
probably did vote for Obama.

Dave

- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Well OK
1. No I am not saying that a disproportionate number of conservatives
are going to food banks. How could I know that? Maybe we have
different definitions of proportionate? For me, it would mean that a
higher proportion (%) of the total universe of conservatives are
coming to food banks, THAN the proportion (%) of the universe of
others who come to food banks.
2. What I am saying is that based on my experiences in the past, and
some current observations and info, I believe that a larger number of
people with conservative political beliefs are coming to food banks
(and other human services) than do in non recessionary times.

Could be true, *I guess. *But, in my experience looking over the past
year most of the new clients at the food bank I volunteer at are the
working poor, blue collar workers, not your typical conservative. *This
is also true at three or four other food banks/pantries in the area
that I am familiar with, including one in a well-to-do community.

And . . .
3. Again from experience, not survey or experiment, these folk are
typically new comers to needing assistance and are often very
emotional, sometimes hostile and demanding, and rarely but regularly
threatening. Its hard times and they are not used to asking for help.

I have experienced many new comers to the food pantry and all find it
humiliating. *A single black mom, very well dressed, came in about two
months ago for the first time. She took her number and had a seat in
the corner were she silently cried. *She had been employed in a well
paying job from the looks of her clothes, and during a conversation I
got the feeling she was obviously educated. *I talked with her in
private and tried to assure her that there was no shame in asking for
help and that it would only be temporary in her case. * Others also
seemed humiliated and embarrassed by the experience. *And, yes, I would
be too.

4. Hello, I was responding to Beanster's characterization that libs
typically walk by a beaten man and are more concerned with criminals
than victims. Rightwingers love those kind of jokes which imply that
wingnuts are stand-up heroes, without actually helping anybody.
Bonhoeffer called stuff like this "cheap grace." I think.

Well, to begin with, to have "grace" they would need to be Christian. *
I'm not arguing with Bonhoeffer, but I believe a true Christian is a
loving person, willing to give back with his/her time, treasures, and
talents. *There is no "cheap grace". *You can't earn grace, and
although good works are not necessary, every Christian I know does some
sort of extra work and is generous with his/her time and money. *As far
as making a joke about libs walking past a beaten man...... well, that
attitude, true or false, had to start somewhere. *I once heard a women
friend in the singing group I once belonged to say that she felt sorry
for this particular criminal who had killed someone. *She said he was a
"product of his environment." *She showed no such pity for the innocent
person killed as we talked about the crime. *I have seen this same
attitude at a national level. *Can't recall the name of the guilty
person in jail, but he was black, "a product of his environment", was
found guilty by overwhelming evidence, yet the liberal press and
hollywood types *demanded* he be let go. *I think that there is a
history of such things happening. *I grew up dirt poor. *I was NOT a
product of my environment. *No one is. *We all have choices in life.



Side note: By the way, Working poor people are not somehow immune to
voting R or immune to conservative political belief, particularly
around issues like abortion, unionization, etc.. Karl Rove sure knew
that in the 2004 Ohio election, and wasn't there this Reagan fellow
who . . . .

No they aren't. *But the poor I see on a daily basis are 100% Obamites,
and the "change" they want is more entitlements. *I know, I know,
someone will brand me as a bigoted blowhard ******* for having said
that, but it is the truth. *They truly need help, but many have made
bad decisions and continue to make more bad decisions, and ride the
system for all it's worth. *They are happy with their lives, afaik, and
wouldn't change if it meant working for what they get.



Since to your knowledge no conservative has come into the food pantry
where you volunteer, to ask for assistance or acted emotionally, you
apparently have touched the elephant in a different place. ;+))

Well, it all depends on one's perspective, but that has been my
experience, Dave. *One must also remember that being a conservative
does not automatically mean that person is a Republican. *I grew very
poor and my parents were conservative Democrats. *d;o) (After thought:
*
I doubt my parents, if alive, would today vote Democrat. *Their
Democrat party has changed. *It is not the party today of JFK. *
Remember the first thing he did when he became prez? *I will never
forget - he gave everyone a very nice tax break. *More money to spend
meant more income for the government.)



Dave
By the way the most hostile and demanding laid off people in my
experience base were defense workers, engineers and middle managers.
The most appreciative, positive and eager to retrain (?) . . . people
like laid off sawmill workers in Snoqualemie and paper workers out on
the Coast. *And all these groups got (get?)enhanced services, and
deeper support. You figure.

Hmmmm. *Well, I know of two 6 figure friends, both engineers, who have
been unemployed for awhile (one for almost two years). *They are both
in their 50s, would accept under-paid positions, and both have been
retrained, one as a truck driver. *Neither has given up hope of finding
a job. *One, married to a working nurse, is slowly spending his 401K
and has moved into a smaller home. *They'll survive.

You and I, Dave, are very fortunate. *I count my blessings daily, and
I'm sure you do too.

Dave

Good god, you are an idiot.

And a pig.

And a liar.

g.
well, yeah, not necessarily in that order.

Hey, don't forget to wash your hands in very hot water, lots of soap,
for at least ten minutes. And use a brush for your fingernails.
There's all sorts of germs and **** up there yaknow.

Davey, who has oft wondered why God blessed Wolfgang with such a
marvelous brain only to have him misuse it writing in this nuthouse....
We've got to find something for this little boy to do.

"No surprise that life's road can feel different . . . in crappy shoes
 

"David LaCourse" wrote in message
news:2010010422410250878-dplacourse@aolcom...

hmmm.....we have a 5 year limit on welfare, since the '90s
and they're 3rd generation?? Sometimes, we think we see, but don't, if you
get what I mean. You have judged them 'pathetic'. You have guessed they
'vote Obama all the way', and that they wish to continue a lifestyle of
dependance on your food kitchen. It might not be them that's pathetic.......
Tom

"No surprise that life's road can feel different . . . in crappy shoes
 

On 2010-01-05 05:39:19 -0500, "Tom Littleton" said:


"David LaCourse" wrote in message
news:2010010422410250878-dplacourse@aolcom...

hmmm.....we have a 5 year limit on welfare, since the '90s
and they're 3rd generation?? Sometimes, we think we see, but don't, if you
get what I mean. You have judged them 'pathetic'. You have guessed they
'vote Obama all the way', and that they wish to continue a lifestyle of
dependance on your food kitchen. It might not be them that's pathetic.......
Tom

I know *personally* the three generation remark. My own brother was on
welfare, his youngest followed in his steps, and one of her children
was on welfare. My neice still lives in subsidized housing, as did my
brother until he died. When I see the same people for more than 3 years
coming to get their once-a-month food allowance and they have their
children with their children in tow, yeah, I see third generation
poverty, three generations that have not advanced, who have been lost,
swept between the cracks in the floor, and the only answer you have is
to turn away and ignore them? Shame on you. I call them pathetic
meaning sad, not *your* usual meaning of the word contemptuous pity.
There are five food banks/pantries available to them once a month.
They visit all of them and get enough food for an entire month. That
is sad. A five year limit on welfare? There is no limit on how long
these sad souls can live in subsidized housing or visit the food
pantries.

For two or three weeks after the 2008 election, many of the clients
were overwhelmed with joy. It was like their messiah had finally come
home. I don't know if they even voted, but they sure as hell were glad
that Obama and all of his fluff promises was elected. The same people
three days a week, 52 weeks a year for several years. *That* is
pathetic (my definition, not yours). We have literally lost three
generations of peope because they rely on government entitlements.

But thinks are looking up, Tom. With the redistribution of wealth that
Obama and Emanuel want, these poor souls will have as much as you and I
have -- we'll all be pathetic (my definition, not yours). Of course
the ruling class, Obama, Biden, the Kennedys, Bushes, Cheney, et al
will continue their rape of the people.

Dave

"No surprise that life's road can feel different . . . in crappyshoes
 

David LaCourse wrote:

Jo and I move to Georgia on Thursday. We both plan to do the same thing
down there.


i'll be interested in your comparison of northern, taxachusetts welfare
programs and clientele with those in the north jawja republican
mountains...

jeff

"No surprise that life's road can feel different . . . in crappy shoes
 

On 2010-01-05 10:01:47 -0500, jeff said:

David LaCourse wrote:

Jo and I move to Georgia on Thursday. We both plan to do the same
thing down there.


i'll be interested in your comparison of northern, taxachusetts welfare
programs and clientele with those in the north jawja republican
mountains...

jeff

Republican mountains? News to me. But, I will try and campare the
difference if/when we can find a place to volunteer. We are about 30
miles from *any place*. You, Rachel, and the pup must visit if for no
other reason that to watch the sunset.

Dave

"No surprise that life's road can feel different . . . in crappyshoes
 

On Jan 5, 5:47*am, David LaCourse wrote:
SNIP

three days a week, 52 weeks a year for several years. **That* is
pathetic (my definition, not yours). *We have literally lost three
generations of peope because they rely on government entitlements.

But thinks are looking up, Tom. *With the redistribution of wealth that
Obama and Emanuel want, these poor souls will have as much as you and I
have -- we'll all be pathetic (my definition, not yours). *Of course
the ruling class, Obama, Biden, the Kennedys, Bushes, Cheney, et al
will continue their rape of the people.

Dave

David
You may not like what I am about to say, nor will some others here,
LIB and TORY alike. No blame or personal criticism is intended. I am
talking here about all of us. . . men, sons, husbands, fathers,
uncles, brothers, bros in law, grand fathers, patriarchs, and one of
the responsibilities I believe we have as men.

The research on poverty seems to support the conclusion that the
single biggest factor in breaking an individual's cycle of poverty and
public dependency . . . is the support and intervention of family
members. The public "second chance" programs by and large serve those
people whose family (or church) will not or cannot help them. You want
to help? You have the time and resources? Help your own blood first.
You've tried? Try again.

No blame or criticism here; Ive seen lots of people dumped on the
public till, from families which have the resources to help their own.
I have little basis for thinking that the proportions vary by
political outlook, but libs and tories do talk about it differently.
Probably over generalizing but . . . LIBs try to intercede to get
their family members into services, fudging eligibility, and freeing
themselves from personal responsibility. TORIES tend to draw
behavioral lines in the sand, and when the family member fails, the
Tory removes the support or the promise of support and talks about
"tough love" as the rationale for not taking personal responsibility
for helping the family member. Sure, some intersession and some "tough
love" are always needed. But taking responsibility, earning
patriarchy, keeping things up close and personal are critical for
helping fallen family.

Bottomline is the public and the churches and the food banks and the
shelters have to fill the gap, while both political sides heckle. I
think we all can do better giving a helping hand to needy and
imperfect family members by being persistent, hanging in there and
never giving up..

The other side of this equation sums up like this . . . Family abuse
of other family members is also a large factor in retraining and
substance sobriety program dropouts. In my career I did a number of
post mortems of failed retraining program agencies. ie pawing thru all
the files, the finances, tracking down people, re-interviewing,
looking at outcomes and what happened to clients. One conclusion I
came to was that for these failed service providers, the single most
frequent cause for not completing a training program or employment
readiness program for women and male youth was . . . being beaten, The
termination stats listed these as "health" or "medical" or "Death, "
but the files told the story.
These are harder and more dangerous situations to get involved in
especially so with family. Be that as it may, men can and should step
up when this effects family. Man to man conversations and if
necessary, a little physical counseling can go a long way.

Dave

"No surprise that life's road can feel different . . . in crappy shoes
 

On 2010-01-05 15:12:54 -0500, DaveS said:

On Jan 5, 5:47*am, David LaCourse wrote:
SNIP

three days a week, 52 weeks a year for several years. **That* is
pathetic (my definition, not yours). *We have literally lost three
generations of peope because they rely on government entitlements.

But thinks are looking up, Tom. *With the redistribution of wealth that
Obama and Emanuel want, these poor souls will have as much as you and I
have -- we'll all be pathetic (my definition, not yours). *Of course
the ruling class, Obama, Biden, the Kennedys, Bushes, Cheney, et al
will continue their rape of the people.

Dave

David
You may not like what I am about to say, nor will some others here,
LIB and TORY alike. No blame or personal criticism is intended. I am
talking here about all of us. . . men, sons, husbands, fathers,
uncles, brothers, bros in law, grand fathers, patriarchs, and one of
the responsibilities I believe we have as men.

The research on poverty seems to support the conclusion that the
single biggest factor in breaking an individual's cycle of poverty and
public dependency . . . is the support and intervention of family
members. The public "second chance" programs by and large serve those
people whose family (or church) will not or cannot help them. You want
to help? You have the time and resources? Help your own blood first.
You've tried? Try again.

No blame or criticism here; Ive seen lots of people dumped on the
public till, from families which have the resources to help their own.
I have little basis for thinking that the proportions vary by
political outlook, but libs and tories do talk about it differently.
Probably over generalizing but . . . LIBs try to intercede to get
their family members into services, fudging eligibility, and freeing
themselves from personal responsibility. TORIES tend to draw
behavioral lines in the sand, and when the family member fails, the
Tory removes the support or the promise of support and talks about
"tough love" as the rationale for not taking personal responsibility
for helping the family member. Sure, some intersession and some "tough
love" are always needed. But taking responsibility, earning
patriarchy, keeping things up close and personal are critical for
helping fallen family.

Bottomline is the public and the churches and the food banks and the
shelters have to fill the gap, while both political sides heckle. I
think we all can do better giving a helping hand to needy and
imperfect family members by being persistent, hanging in there and
never giving up..

The other side of this equation sums up like this . . . Family abuse
of other family members is also a large factor in retraining and
substance sobriety program dropouts. In my career I did a number of
post mortems of failed retraining program agencies. ie pawing thru all
the files, the finances, tracking down people, re-interviewing,
looking at outcomes and what happened to clients. One conclusion I
came to was that for these failed service providers, the single most
frequent cause for not completing a training program or employment
readiness program for women and male youth was . . . being beaten, The
termination stats listed these as "health" or "medical" or "Death, "
but the files told the story.
These are harder and more dangerous situations to get involved in
especially so with family. Be that as it may, men can and should step
up when this effects family. Man to man conversations and if
necessary, a little physical counseling can go a long way.

Dave


Wish I had said that! d;o) I agree whole heartedly, but the
health/medical thingy has changed since I was a kid. When I grew up in
the 40s/early 50s, there was no health care. How the hell did we
survive, I wonder. Today IS different because of the rise in cancer,
hiv, aids, heart disease, etc. But back then, few people got really
sick. I don't remember anyone going to the hospital, and I lost only
one member of the family, a fly fishing/duck hunting uncle who died
from pancreatic cancer in 1959 while I was in Japan protecting your
sorry ass from the communist hordes. d;o)

The male patriarch of a family has aways been important in any family,
if for no other reason than to set an example and teach. One thing
that was very important when I was a boy - grandparents. Just about
every house in my neighborhood had a Nana, or Pop, or gramma/pa. As
well as the love, discipline, teaching of parents, there was the same
responsibility wth grand parents. Grand parents are something that
most kids today only see on special occasions, unless ya have one
living with you. I feel blessed to have had my oldest grandson living
with us for the past five years, and now his brother has moved in and
will watch the house while we are in Georgia

Not to bore you with further pantry stories, but I know of several
women, regular clients of the pantry, that have numerous children with
numerous fathers, and there is little, IF ANY, child support be it
monitary or advisory by said fathers. It is a big problem with our
country, and one that most countries do not have to deal with.

I agree with the main gist of your post, Dave. Like I said, wish I had
said that.

Dave

"No surprise that life's road can feel different . . . in crappy shoes
 

"David LaCourse" wrote in message
news:2010010508470016807-dplacourse@aolcom...
the only answer you have is
to turn away and ignore them?

no, I'm saying generation to generation poverty has been part of our economy
since this nation started. Nothing 'pathetic' about it, it's built into the
system. It's good that you do something to help. I try to do likewise.


Shame on you. I call them pathetic
meaning sad, not *your* usual meaning of the word contemptuous pity. There
are five food banks/pantries available to them once a month. They visit
all of them and get enough food for an entire month. That is sad. A five
year limit on welfare? There is no limit on how long these sad souls can
live in subsidized housing or visit the food pantries.

no. And, while you might backpedal now and parse your use of pathetic, you
are all too willing to guess about their politics/voting(as if you really
know) and pass judgement elsewhere.
We have literally lost three generations of peope because they rely on
government entitlements.

this is where you let politics get in the way of clear thinking. We've had
poverty, generation-to-generation poverty, and you apparently only started
noticing it in the past 20 years. Hell, the same families that were poor in
VA in 1800 still are today. Sure, there are a few that break the cycle, but
the system is set up to make that a challenge. One of the greatest crocks o'
crap ever sold is the Horatio Alger ideal. By and large, our nation just
doesn't work that way. Perhaps, in Obama, they felt they
saw someone who might effect a change in that. In my experiences, most of
the folks who I've encountered receiving welfare, food stamps, going to the
food bank, etc., don't like that situation, and work like the devil to
change it. Sometimes, they get discouraged, but by and large, it is not some
sort of lifestyle choice.
Tom