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On Apr 15, 6:04*pm, Giles wrote:

Sounds like a thin year. Here's what i am thinking: If you got
em . . . send 2-3 dozen. I will plant half out directly where Ive got
some decent subirrigation near a pond, mulched, and Ill put an
expanded plastic mesh sleeve over then as soon as they show. The other
half I will pot and raise a year or so in my fenced garden at the
homeplace. Then next year if more seeds make it thru the winter we can
scale up a little. Ill send an address via Email. OK?

Dave

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DaveS wrote:
The morality of wealth discussion, like so many other things,
generally dances over so much so as to approach meaninglessness. I am
a progressive, lib in some simplistic seeking minds, pretty "green,"
mostly vote "D" unless the candidate is a known child molester or
there is a decent "R" running for auditor or treasurer at the
courthouse, and etc etc. And although Id be considered in asset terms
(not income terms) well off, I could and have on occasion worked up a
rant or two on the evils of wealth. However . . .

Since I am now wealthy myself and just beginning to appreciate the
complexities of agribusiness in 21st century America

I would like to
point out a few things.
snip

OK. Thanks.

Point is, working for yourself is a great gig if you can get it
and I don't know anyone who wouldn't rather manage the family
fortune full-time rather than having to hold down a job.

--
Ken Fortenberry

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On Apr 16, 1:32*pm, Ken Fortenberry
wrote:
DaveS wrote:
The morality of wealth discussion, like so many other things,
generally dances over so much so as to approach meaninglessness. I am
a progressive, lib in some simplistic seeking minds, pretty "green,"
mostly vote "D" unless the candidate is a known child molester or
there is a decent "R" running for auditor or treasurer at the
courthouse, and etc etc. And although Id be considered in asset terms
(not income terms) well off, I could and have on occasion worked up a
rant or two on the evils of wealth. However . . .

Since I am now wealthy myself and just beginning to appreciate the
complexities of agribusiness in 21st century America

I would like to
point out a few things.
snip

OK. Thanks.

Point is, working for yourself is a great gig if you can get it
and I don't know anyone who wouldn't rather manage the family
fortune full-time rather than having to hold down a job.

--
Ken Fortenberry

Well OK.
1. I am not wealthy. I am not a farmer; I am a farm-groupie. I do own
a small amount of ag land mostly for its river, and I am working to
get more shade to cool down the 1/2 mile I control, and switching
crops to keep more water in the river.

2. Separate and apart from how someones "fortune" was made, it is not
just "anyone" thats keeps a large ag/land based "fortune" together
over several generations.

3. "Working for yourself" successfully by definition is a hard "gig"
and one just doesn't "get it," a person creates it, one doesn't just
"hold" it down. Not for long anyway. Ive done both and helped create a
company or two. Doing your own self employed business or a company
start up is kissing away at least 5 years of your life, time with your
kids, etc etc. Working for someone else or in a corporate or public
bureaucracy was lots easier and can have its own advantages as per
creativity etc. But it was definitely easier and sometimes more
lucrative.

4. "Agribusiness." thats as close as suits get to farming. And they
require a porous border, a blind eye from labor law regulators, etc.
but your cheap food still requires lots of physical work, more than
average mental agility, and willingness to work all night in the shop
so the swather cuts clean or the baler works when the moisture level
is just right for the target protein level an hour after sunrise.

5. When you say "I don't know anyone who wouldn't rather manage the
family
fortune full-time rather than having to hold down a job." its simple.
But it's not that simple. I am sure most would agree with you, but
wouldn't have much of a "family fortune" left after a year or two. I
also know a couple of folks who inherited big time ag assets and year
by year are "managing" them into the ground. Sustaining and growing
the productivity and income flows from an ag or forest based "family
fortune" is not a walk in the park. Without some love for the land,
respect for the natural processes and people who make it happen, and a
willingness to work, a family cannot hold onto these kinds of assets
over the generations.

6. Like I said, if RD is managing with reasonable success, a
commercial sized chunk of family land, it is bull**** to fault him for
not "working."

Dave

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On Apr 16, 12:32*pm, wrote:
On Fri, 16 Apr 2010 09:41:03 -0500, Ken Fortenberry





wrote:
wrote:
Ken Fortenberry wrote:
wrote:
Ken Fortenberry:
The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in
moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification
for selfishness.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * -- John Kenneth Galbraith

Ah...so THAT explains why there are no wealthy "liberals"...

That one touch a nerve, did it ? ;-)

Not in the least - I feel _very_ little need to justify _anything_ to _anyone_,
and esp. not about that for which I've worked toward...if I thought I would feel
the need to "justify" some action I planned to take to anyone, I'd likely not do
it.

That's quite the performance of the "Dance of the Non Sequiturs".
The search for a superior moral philosophy is a mental exercise,
not an action one plans to take.

And there's not a lot of what I'd call "work" involved in being
born with a silver spoon in your mouth. What you call "work" is
what a lot of folks call "managing the family fortune" and a lot
of folks do that at the kitchen table after they've finished their
full day of "work".

Shows what you know - running a sausage plantation whilst making sure one's
manservant doesn't mis-mix the cocktails is a big job...why, shucks, in the last
year, I've had to get up before noon at least twice, and at least once a month,
the work day lasts for over an hour...

HTH,
R
...I mean, the serfs don't just whip themselves, donchaknow...

Idiot.

g.

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On Apr 16, 1:49*pm, DaveS wrote:
On Apr 16, 7:41*am, Ken Fortenberry
wrote:





wrote:
Ken Fortenberry wrote:
wrote:
Ken Fortenberry:
“The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in
moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification
for selfishness.”
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * -- John Kenneth Galbraith

Ah...so THAT explains why there are no wealthy "liberals"...

That one touch a nerve, did it ? ;-)

Not in the least - I feel _very_ little need to justify _anything_ to _anyone_,
and esp. not about that for which I've worked toward...if I thought I would feel
the need to "justify" some action I planned to take to anyone, I'd likely not do
it.

That's quite the performance of the "Dance of the Non Sequiturs".
The search for a superior moral philosophy is a mental exercise,
not an action one plans to take.

And there's not a lot of what I'd call "work" involved in being
born with a silver spoon in your mouth. What you call "work" is
what a lot of folks call "managing the family fortune" and a lot
of folks do that at the kitchen table after they've finished their
full day of "work".

--
Ken Fortenberry- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

The morality of wealth discussion, like so many other things,
generally dances over so much so as to approach meaninglessness. I am
a progressive, lib in some simplistic seeking minds, pretty "green,"
mostly vote "D" unless the candidate is a known child molester or
there is a decent "R" running for auditor or treasurer at the
courthouse, and etc etc. And although Id be considered in asset terms
(not income terms) well off, I could and have on occasion worked up a
rant or two on the evils of wealth. However . . . I would like to
point out a few things.

1. The econ system of this country is fundamentally capitalist. That
is the reality. 2. Much of the environmentally critical land and water
in the USA is owned and managed by people of wealth. For better or
worse they are important stewards.
3. At the ground level, day to day, government and regulation of these
private lands, specifically ag and forest lands, is at best a mixed
blessing. Govt favors big business and the environmental mismanagement
of grazing, mining and energy leasing in the West gives thin support
to the idea that govt is mostly the answer.
4. On a day to day basis, decision by decision, how to till, how close
to the waterway, how to rotate crops and stock, what to do with the
poop, how to manage the wind/slope/pests/weeds, how to raise animals
humanely, how/when/and how much to cut, etc etc, not to mention how to
make your efforts profitable, and deal with the legions of regulators,
taxes, subsidies, politicians, well meaning others etc. is pretty damn
complex.
5. But, all the above have much more impact on the current and future
health of the environment than garden variety green advocacy, or the
career- long desk dances of most bureaucrats.

All true enough.

6. I do believe that better understanding and working cooperatively
with private ag and forest land owners could have considerable
positive impact on fish and water quality.

Or, as in the past, it could once again have a profoundly catastrophic
impact.

Cooperation SOUNDS positive, but it ain't necessarily.

Where am I going with this? To the extent I am correct in assuming
that RD is managing the substantial land and ag assets of his family.
he is probably working physically and intellectually a lot harder than
most "professional" jobs require. Ive a friend who owns/manages 6000
acres plus other stuff, he is working 6 to 9, ends the day with a mask
of dust, lives in a modest house, drives decade old vehicles and each
crop year is probably at risk for a few million. He could make more
money with a 2 year degree in computer science and have to keep up on
a tenth of the science my friend does, "managing his family's land."

I think RDs politics are often way off base, but to assume that he
just floats day to day, silver spoon etc is bull****. Sometimes I
could question his cold-water advise but his advise on mechanical and
land stuff rings true and suggests he has gotten his hands dirty more
than most. And if he manages, and influences the management of . . .
as much land as I think he does, a few decisions on his part will have
much greater impact on our environment than most of the rest of us
will ever have. Not to be too clinical but, these people are or should
be the natural allies of conservation minded fishers and hunters, and
that might require focusing on areas of mutual interest and not on
rhetorical ideological differences.

Dave

All of which looks real pretty......but that's the way it is with
conjecture. The diminutive member has made a point of concealing as
much of himself as possible (not hard to understand) while daily
revealing more than he has ever intended to in a lifetime.

Meanwhile, others tend to see what they are conditioned to
see.....unless they are very careful and observant and thoughtful.
And lucky.

giles.

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DaveS wrote:
Ken Fortenberry wrote:
Point is, working for yourself is a great gig if you can get it
and I don't know anyone who wouldn't rather manage the family
fortune full-time rather than having to hold down a job.

Well OK.
...
2. Separate and apart from how someones "fortune" was made, it is not
just "anyone" thats keeps a large ag/land based "fortune" together
over several generations.

3. "Working for yourself" successfully by definition is a hard "gig"
and one just doesn't "get it," a person creates it, one doesn't just
"hold" it down. Not for long anyway. ...

That's all well and good but I think there's a difference between
someone who starts out with a ****load of student loans and an old
Chevy versus someone who starts out with a preordained career path
leading to the top of an already successful agribusiness enterprise.

Just speaking in generalities, of course.

--
Ken Fortenberry

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On Apr 16, 3:50*pm, Ken Fortenberry
wrote:

Just speaking in generalities, of course.

--
Ken Fortenberry

Me too. Look I do know the significance of diffs between what you
start with. Ive been involuntarily hungry as a kid and half my friends
were dead before 25, and Ive slept in a ditch hitching across this
great country of ours. My only points are that from what I can see
managing a significant chunk of land takes some smarts and is real
work, AND that the day to day decisions made by such managers are of
major environmental import, and when it is your own land and you want
intergenerational sustainability, these decisions tend toward
conservation. If that's what RD does, it is hard and challenging work.

Dave

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On Fri, 16 Apr 2010 18:21:48 -0700 (PDT), DaveS wrote:

On Apr 16, 3:50*pm, Ken Fortenberry
wrote:

Just speaking in generalities, of course.

--
Ken Fortenberry

Me too. Look I do know the significance of diffs between what you
start with. Ive been involuntarily hungry as a kid and half my friends
were dead before 25, and Ive slept in a ditch hitching across this
great country of ours. My only points are that from what I can see
managing a significant chunk of land takes some smarts and is real
work, AND that the day to day decisions made by such managers are of
major environmental import, and when it is your own land and you want
intergenerational sustainability, these decisions tend toward
conservation. If that's what RD does, it is hard and challenging work.

Dave


Well, I've never slept in a ditch while hitchhiking...or for any other reason.
And FWIW, I'm much more than a handsome stud on a tractor - geez, don't hate me
because I'm beautiful...

HTH,
R

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On Apr 16, 7:50*pm, wrote:
On Fri, 16 Apr 2010 18:21:48 -0700 (PDT), DaveS wrote:
On Apr 16, 3:50*pm, Ken Fortenberry
wrote:

Just speaking in generalities, of course.

--
Ken Fortenberry

Me too. Look I do know the significance of diffs between what you
start with. Ive been involuntarily hungry as a kid and half my friends
were dead before 25, and Ive slept in a ditch hitching across this
great country of ours. My only points are that from what I can see
managing a significant chunk of land takes some smarts and is real
work, AND that the day to day decisions made by such managers are of
major environmental import, and when it is your own land and you want
intergenerational sustainability, these decisions tend toward
conservation. If that's what RD does, it is hard and challenging work.

Dave

Well, I've never slept in a ditch while hitchhiking...or for any other reason.
And FWIW, I'm much more than a handsome stud on a tractor - geez, don't hate me
because I'm beautiful...

HTH,
R- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Idiot

Dave

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"DaveS" wrote in message
...
1. I am not wealthy. I am not a farmer; I am a farm-groupie.

does this entail hanging around farmers and trying to get their attentions?


Sustaining and growing
the productivity and income flows from an ag or forest based "family
fortune" is not a walk in the park. Without some love for the land,
respect for the natural processes and people who make it happen, and a
willingness to work, a family cannot hold onto these kinds of assets
over the generations.


I think you're somewhat overdramatizing here, at least in my experience.
No argument with the rest of your premise, however.
Tom