What I learned today.
 

"Conan The Librarian" wrote in message
...
wrote:
Sadly, then I just have to struggle by making up something from a cookbook.


a few questions, Chuck.
1. Do you consider yourself well trained in a variety of
cooking skills?
2. Is you palate sensitive enough to discern most spices
in dishes you consume?
3. Can you generally tell by which method a cooked
dish was cooked(ie: grilled, roasted, fried, sauteed,etc).

if a fairly strong "yes" to all the above, and if self-confident enough, you
should be able to play around at duplicating much of what you might
encounter in restaurants or at the homes of friends, on your own. I think
RDean is merely stating that he is fond of doing just that sort of playing
around, and the challenges it presents. I think he also has the skill set to
pull it off adequately. Others don't wish to
go through that process, and wish more explicit instructions through the
process and get to the actual dining part more readily. This is where the
differences lie and the problems in understanding one another in this
thread. Oh, and Wolfie being puckish or whatever can muck the understanding
process up considerably, too, but that's the charm of ROFF.
Tom

What I learned today.
 

On 14 Dec, 03:32, "Tom Littleton" wrote:
"Conan The Librarian" wrote in ...

wrote:
Sadly, then I just have to struggle by making up something from a cookbook.

a few questions, Chuck.
1. Do you consider yourself well trained in a variety of
cooking skills?
2. Is you palate sensitive enough to discern most spices
in dishes you consume?
3. Can you generally tell by which method a cooked
dish was cooked(ie: grilled, roasted, fried, sauteed,etc).

if a fairly strong "yes" to all the above, and if self-confident enough, you
should be able to play around at duplicating much of what you might
encounter in restaurants or at the homes of friends, on your own. I think
RDean is merely stating that he is fond of doing just that sort of playing
around, and the challenges it presents. I think he also has the skill set to
pull it off adequately. Others don't wish to
go through that process, and wish more explicit instructions through the
process and get to the actual dining part more readily. This is where the
differences lie and the problems in understanding one another in this
thread. Oh, and Wolfie being puckish or whatever can muck the understanding
process up considerably, too, but that's the charm of ROFF.
Tom

English cooking is a lot simpler. If it´s brown it´s done, if it´s
black, it is either blood pudding or burned.

What I learned today.
 

On Fri, 14 Dec 2007 02:19:37 GMT, "Tom Littleton"
wrote:


wrote in message
.. .
I prefer to see and sample dishes and go from there,
whatever the cuisine. But I also realize that some have _no_ access to
trying certain things, and so, if you or they do need to use a cookbook
for a general sense of what ingredients are used, that's fine. But I'd
offer that attempting to use _recipes_ from a cookbook will not produce
"true" Cajun or Creole food.

I think the problem here is that you have a basic set of culinary skills and
are willing to put them to use, unfettered, whilst others feel the need for
more precise instruction. I'm sort of in your camp, and feel that cooking is
more a matter of feel, along with a basic knowledge of herbs, spices, meats
and other key ingredients. The chemist in me has learned, after a stubborn
period of trial and error, that baking is damned near as fussy as organic
synthesis in requiring adherence to every detail for it to work properly.
Others may find otherwise, and that's fine as well.

As to certain baked goods and foodstuffs, I'd absolutely agree.
Interestingly, perhaps, very little such baking was/is done in Creole or
even Cajun homes. In most Creole homes, even back into the 1700s
through to today, most breads, cakes, etc. were bought from the baker,
patisserie, cala ladies, etc. While the early "cookbook" I mentioned
does give "recipes" for bread such as pain Francais and "bakery bread,"
they _all_ call for "flour sufficient to make a smooth dough." Most
"dish recipes" call for things like "2 onions," "a dozen peppers," "a
heaping spoon of parsley," "salt and pepper to taste," whereas the
"update" made for wide distribution calls for things like "1 cup chopped
onions," "1 1/2 teaspoons parsley," etc.

The real problem/situation with trying to give _recipes_ for
(traditional) Creole and Cajun dishes is that there really are _none_ as
such. Any time one sees such a thing, one can be assured that it is
simply and essentially little more than a WAG done to either sell
cookbooks, or less-commercially, done simply to appease someone who
simply refuses to accept that there really is no _recipe_ as such.

Note - when I use "recipe," I mean such as "some chopped onion, some
parsley, some chopped celery, some tasso if you have it handy, etc." and
when I use _recipe_, I mean such as " Thou SHALL use the following - no
substitutions: precisely 1 1/2 cups chopped onion, 1 1/2 cups chopped
celery, etc." There are "recipes," just not _recipes_.

Think of it much like fly "recipes" - there are certainly "ingredient
lists," but I've never seen a _recipe_ that says something like "use x
grains of dubbing on a thread of x thousandths coated with x amount of
wax..." or "use a hackle of precisely x inches/mm" and so, your "art" is
different from a Dette which is different from a Flick, etc., but all
are generally a whatever tie.

TC,
R
Tom

What I learned today.
 

On Fri, 14 Dec 2007 02:32:39 GMT, "Tom Littleton"
wrote:


"Conan The Librarian" wrote in message
...
wrote:
Sadly, then I just have to struggle by making up something from a cookbook.


a few questions, Chuck.
1. Do you consider yourself well trained in a variety of
cooking skills?
2. Is you palate sensitive enough to discern most spices
in dishes you consume?
3. Can you generally tell by which method a cooked
dish was cooked(ie: grilled, roasted, fried, sauteed,etc).

if a fairly strong "yes" to all the above, and if self-confident enough, you
should be able to play around at duplicating much of what you might
encounter in restaurants or at the homes of friends, on your own. I think
RDean is merely stating that he is fond of doing just that sort of playing
around, and the challenges it presents.

No, he isn't. What I'm saying is that really are no _recipes_ for the
vast majority (like all of them) of Creole and Cajun dishes. Some folks
do better than others as to the final product, but no "native" cooks of
whom I am aware use _recipes_ for such. Even if one were to try to
gather all the "recipes" and use them, there are so many out there that
if one took the two most-differing out there, they would wind up with
two dishes that barely resembled each other. Three examples I can think
of instantly are gumbos, jambalayas, and courtbullions, even if one
specifies the type of gumbo, etc.- seafood, fowl and sausage, z'herbes,
etc.

Watch, for example, a good non-Creole cook like Alton Brown - he
actually measures what he gives as the _recipe_, whereas the
Creole/Cajun chefs - Wilson, Folse, Chase, Prudhomme, Spicer, Besh, etc.
- may give amounts (but often don't), but blatantly don't use them, even
pointing out that they don't actually use them. I was present when
Prudhomme, who was building a dish and was asked about amounts said,
never missing a beat, "abou' dis much," while adding things to the pan
from his mise en place with everything from his hands/fingers, the pot
spoon, and his knifetip...

I think he also has the skill set to pull it off adequately.

Others don't wish to
go through that process, and wish more explicit instructions through the
process and get to the actual dining part more readily.

Then my advice would be to not try it at home. If one isn't interested
in the process, the result isn't likely to be satisfying to anyone
involved. And there's nothing "wrong" with that - that's why there's
file and okra, as it were...

TC,
R

This is where the
differences lie and the problems in understanding one another in this
thread. Oh, and Wolfie being puckish or whatever can muck the understanding
process up considerably, too, but that's the charm of ROFF.
Tom

What I learned today.
 

"Mike" wrote in message
...
English cooking is a lot simpler. If it´s brown it´s done, if it´s
black, it is either blood pudding or burned.


my experience is limited, but I suspect you are close to
spot-on with this one, Mike. g

Tom

What I learned today.
 

In article
,
Mike writes
On 14 Dec, 03:32, "Tom Littleton" wrote:
"Conan The Librarian" wrote in
...

wrote:
Sadly, then I just have to struggle by making up something from a cookbook.

a few questions, Chuck.
1. Do you consider yourself well trained in a variety of
cooking skills?
2. Is you palate sensitive enough to discern most spices
in dishes you consume?
3. Can you generally tell by which method a cooked
dish was cooked(ie: grilled, roasted, fried, sauteed,etc).

if a fairly strong "yes" to all the above, and if self-confident enough, you
should be able to play around at duplicating much of what you might
encounter in restaurants or at the homes of friends, on your own. I think
RDean is merely stating that he is fond of doing just that sort of playing
around, and the challenges it presents. I think he also has the skill set to
pull it off adequately. Others don't wish to
go through that process, and wish more explicit instructions through the
process and get to the actual dining part more readily. This is where the
differences lie and the problems in understanding one another in this
thread. Oh, and Wolfie being puckish or whatever can muck the understanding
process up considerably, too, but that's the charm of ROFF.
Tom

English cooking is a lot simpler. If it´s brown it´s done, if it´s
black, it is either blood pudding or burned.


The version I heard was "If it's brown it's done, if it's Black it's
buggered !"
--
Bill Grey

What I learned today.
 

Tom Littleton wrote:

a few questions, Chuck.
1. Do you consider yourself well trained in a variety of
cooking skills?

"Trained" might not be exactly accurate, but yeah ... I have a lot
of experience cooking many different styles of cuisine.

2. Is you palate sensitive enough to discern most spices
in dishes you consume?

Yes. In fact, it's a bit of a running joke with Carol that when I
try a new dish I "deconstruct" the spices and herbs that went into it.

3. Can you generally tell by which method a cooked
dish was cooked(ie: grilled, roasted, fried, sauteed,etc).

Sure.

if a fairly strong "yes" to all the above, and if self-confident enough, you
should be able to play around at duplicating much of what you might
encounter in restaurants or at the homes of friends, on your own.

And I've been known to do exactly that. However, one of the ways I
got the self-confidence to do that is by reading and trying out various
recipes, however "un-authentic" they might be considered.

I think
RDean is merely stating that he is fond of doing just that sort of playing
around, and the challenges it presents. I think he also has the skill set to
pull it off adequately. Others don't wish to
go through that process, and wish more explicit instructions through the
process and get to the actual dining part more readily. This is where the
differences lie and the problems in understanding one another in this
thread. Oh, and Wolfie being puckish or whatever can muck the understanding
process up considerably, too, but that's the charm of ROFF.

I've got no problem with Wolfgang Puck ... er, I mean ... I think
Wolfgang is merely giving Richard a hard time because ... well ...
because Richard sometimes begs for it.

Bill says he's thinking about looking into recipes for Cajun food,
so Richard comes along and say he can't do that because there are no
recipes for "true" Cajun food.

We all know that's just Richard being Richard, but really ... how
helpful a response is that?


Chuck Vance

What I learned today.
 

What I learned today.
 

Conan The Librarian typed:
Tom Littleton wrote:

a few questions, Chuck.
1. Do you consider yourself well trained in a variety of
cooking skills?

"Trained" might not be exactly accurate, but yeah ... I have a lot
of experience cooking many different styles of cuisine.

2. Is you palate sensitive enough to discern most spices
in dishes you consume?

Yes. In fact, it's a bit of a running joke with Carol that when I
try a new dish I "deconstruct" the spices and herbs that went into it.

3. Can you generally tell by which method a cooked
dish was cooked(ie: grilled, roasted, fried, sauteed,etc).

Sure.

if a fairly strong "yes" to all the above, and if self-confident
enough, you should be able to play around at duplicating much of
what you might encounter in restaurants or at the homes of friends,
on your own.

And I've been known to do exactly that. However, one of the ways I
got the self-confidence to do that is by reading and trying out
various recipes, however "un-authentic" they might be considered.

One of the things I like to do is look through a recipe (especially the ones
with the photos - reading is for sissies) and then reconstruct it first in
my mind and then in the kitchen. Usually, after reading (blech!) the
ingredients and quantities, I have a pretty good idea where the flavors will
be coming from. Then I tweak the ingredients for my tastes or the tastes of
the people I'll be serving, tasting as I go. I would imagine the others here
with at least a basic familiarity with the kitchen (you know who you are) do
the same.

.. . . of course, I would also imagine that the two opposing teams in this
debate are saying exactly the same thing, but are in different rooms. ;-)
--
TL,
Tim
-------------------------
http://css.sbcma.com/timj

What I learned today.