ot health care
 

a collection of thoughts on the topic at hand:
First, it is truly comical the BS that passes for American views of other
nations healthcare in this debate. That is, it would be comical if it
weren't, at times, coming from elected officials sworn to be acting in the
public's interest.
Second, the US system is SO ****ed up as to be a truly daunting challenge to
rectify. A few key items:
1. We charge massive tuition for doctors to become educated in the field.
Other nations feel it to be in their national interest not to saddle
physicians with huge personal debts.
2. Our system of malpractice litigation leads to massive increases in costs
and further, to defensive medical practices that do little to benefit the
patient.
3. Our insurance industry runs with huge overhead costs and generates
exceptional profits. Healthcare should never have been made a business in
the first place. As Jeff stated, basic, quality care should be a right of
everyone from birth, in this country.
4. We compensate providers on the basis of fee for service, rather than by
diagnosis and outcome. This nearly guarantees inflated services and
fraudulant billing. This applies to doctors, hospitals, laboratories, etc.

and, those are just the high(or low) points. The problem, as I see it, is
that fixing the mess will require a VERY drastic overhaul, and I frankly do
not see any political will to change to the extent needed. Half-measures and
gradual measures will, as likely as not, actually make the problems of
undercoverage, price gouging and bad outcomes worse. Obama has it right when
he states that, left in the status quo, healthcare will bankrupt the Federal
and State budgets and impoverish many more citizens, as time goes on. Thus,
healthcare reform ought to be the nation's utmost domestic priority. To have
it sullied with the absolute nonsense, such as bogus claims of the
shortcomings of other nations, 'death panels', and the like is close to a
national disgrace. Folks like Louie cry that 'my taxes will go up!!', while
I sit here figuring mine probably wouldn't go up, under a single-payer
model, more than the $14,000-plus in premiums I am currently paying. Add in
out-of pocket debacles like Ken cites, and for many folks, such a system
would prove a godsend.
I despair that anything will come of the current debate other than a
half-baked compromise that the luddites can point to in 6 or 7 years and
say, "look! Healthcare reform is a failure". That saddens me.

.....just one person's opinion. No, I haven't any personal experience will
the healthcare systems of other nations, but, I have spent the past 30 years
working in our healthcare system, and know something is very, very
wrong......
Tom

ot health care
 

David LaCourse wrote:

Uh, Tim, there is no such thing as a free lunch Of course they pay,
through taxes, fees, etc. If Obama has his way, my health care costs
will go through the roof. Without tort reform (sorry Carolina guys),
the expense will always remain high. Except for the obvious blunder
(removing the left leg when the right one was the intended one), can
Canadians sue for what they *think* was malpractice? Do they? Do the
laws in Canada discourage such actions? They certainly don't in this
country.


I don't pay health care insurance premiums. I do pay taxes, and that's
what covers my health care. My taxes are not much higher, if at all,
than those in the US. If I have to have an expensive procedure, it is
covered. If I have surgery, I do not pay extra fees. If my wife has a
child, we do not pay extra fees. That's how it works for us. We think
governments should look after people's health care.It works well for us,
regardless of what you think and what propaganda you listen to.

I really cannot understand the objection that many in the US seem to
have to making health care affordable for all its citizens.

Tim Lysyk

ot health care
 

On 2009-09-18 18:38:04 -0400, jeff said:

while i have no problem with the rich having full and free access to
their cadillac health insurance and pricey docs... my friend louie
seems to ignore that, unlike him, millions of folks have no choices,
can't afford anything, or can't afford what's offered. they deserve
decent health care. decent is all i ask, not the super-duper best doc
money can buy.

Whoa! Hold on there, friend. I do not nor have I ever had full and
free access to cadillac health insurance and pricey docs. I was on
Joanne's Verizon health care, the same health care that EVERYONE in the
company had. It was the same health care as the secretaries,
electricians, plumbers, PhDs, Vice Prez, etc. Nothing special about it
except it allowed you to choose your own doctor. I doubt Obama's plan
will allow that, but who knows?

decent health care is probably near the top two or three things a
populace should expect of our government.

I am not against health care for all, Jeffy. I just think that the US
government should not RUN it. What does the U.S. government run well
anymore? Hell, they can't even run a war correctly, and certainly not
Social Security, AmTrac, or anything else. What are we to do if our DC
government runs health care into a giant bottomless money pit the way
they have Social Security. The fine Commonwealth of Massachusetts has
a free health care plan - no one in Mass goes without health care. The
govenor and the State House has run up a 2 billion dollar deficit in
just a couple of years, and that deficit is climbing at an alarming
rate. It works, but at what expense? Who is going to pay for it?
There are not enough tax payers in the state to do it.

I have friends that are unemployed and work at the food pantry for
their weekly groceries. THEY have health care, and from what I have
seen, it is pretty good. One woman suffers from seisures and sees a
doctor amost weekly. She ended up in Saints Med Center in Lowell where
she stayed free of charge for three or four days. All of her
anti-seisure medicine is free. Another young man has a 59 yo father
dying of bone cancer and sees a doc regularly free of charge.

The figures I hear bouncing around are 47 million uninsured. Thirty
million of those 47 are like my grandsons - they choose not to take the
health care provided by their employers, and take home more pay that
way. When I was at GTE, we had a choice of accepting the health care
(and paying some of the costs), or not. Most everyone chose the health
care insurance and its incumpent expenses.

Insure the remaining 17 million, implement tort reform so that millions
of dollars are not spent on frivolous lawsuits, or paid out because a
doctor could not control what went wrong. Your own John Edwards made a
fortune practicing malpractice suits. But, don't throw out the baby
with the wash water. There is no way on God's green earth that Obama
can implement health care reform without adding to an already bulging
deficit. And if he does, leave my health care alone, or give me what
Rangle, Reed, and Pelosi have. And, don't make me pay taxes on
$75,000. If it's good enough for Charlie, it be good enough for the
Pirate.

Dave

ot health care
 

"David LaCourse" wrote in message
news:2009091819385544303-dplacourse@aolcom...
The figures I hear bouncing around are 47 million uninsured. Thirty
million of those 47 are like my grandsons - they choose not to take the
health care provided by their employers, and take home more pay that way.

your figure of 30 million is nothing short of fiction. Despite that, let's
look at what those noble(generally young) folks are doing to the overall
system by their choice. First, it raises the premium costs by tilting the
average healthcare cost of those in the pool. Second, when those uninsured
younger folks get a catastrophic illness or injury, they can't pay the
bills, which then get passed along to those of us who can. Still another
fine example of the half-assed mess of a national system we have in this
nation. Thanks for the lucid example.

Tom

ot health care
 

On 2009-09-18 19:31:43 -0400, "Tom Littleton" said:

Folks like Louie cry that 'my taxes will go up!!',

I cried that? Hmmm, don't remember it. We now pay a far higher tax
rate than you, I imagine, and we aren't even working! But that's part
of doing business in the good ole usofa. I *did* say that our asshole
Govenor took a state that was fairly even cash wise and put us into
$2,000,000,000.00 debt faster than I can say "Mass politics suck."
And, taxes will probably go up to pay for it. (Not to worry: Joanne
and I are leaving the state in the near future for the mountains of
Georgia.)

If you will read my reply to Jeff, I state that I am not against health
care reform. Something has to be done. But giving it over to the same
people that brought us the bottomless money pit soon to be bankrupt
Social Security, the same folks that can't decide how to run or win a
war, the same folks that brought us AmTrac, the same folks that
chastise a boorish Wilson but let Charie Rangel run free, the same
folks that gave us Nancy and Harry - uhuh, it ain't gonna wash, Tom.
Giving the DC government free run on health care is the worst thing we
could possible do. Reform it. Get those uninsured on insurance. Make
it so that when you change jobs your insurance goes with you. Do away
with the "existing condition" bull****, but DON'T let the Federal
Government run it, and don't try to pull the wool over our eyes by
saing, "It will not add to the deficit." Ask Deval Patrick about
*that* one. It WILL cost us and that means more taxes for EVERYONE,
including those that do not now pay taxes.

Dave

ot health care
 

"David LaCourse" wrote in message
news:2009091821114433169-dplacourse@aolcom...
It WILL cost us and that means more taxes for EVERYONE,
including those that do not now pay taxes.

Dave

see, you did it, alreadyg. Anyhow, higher taxes without health insurance
premiums is a good deal for most American citizens. I can't speak to the
individual bills for you and Joanne, any more than you should guess about my
tax bills. Sort of like guessing what other nations' healthcare systems
are....if you don't have the facts, you're wasting everyone's time.
By the way, I hope the move the the mountains of Georgia is enjoyable. You
might, however, get another chance to provide us with examples of our
National Healthcare system, when you compare the nature of your care in the
state of GA to what your situation is, currently, in Mass. Another issue the
nation faces is very wide discrepancies between various locales, and
available treatment, no matter which insurance one carries.......
Tom
p.s 'governement run', you say?? Howcome Medicare operates at a vastly more
efficient level of overhead than most private insurers??(and, I am not
referring to reimbursement levels, just operational costs).

ot health care
 

On 18-Sep-2009, David LaCourse wrote:

Sure do. Ever heard of Fawn Lake in Montana? Ask Fortenberry about
it. He was there once.

Dave



We used to motor on our 17ft boat 15 or so miles up to where it hits the
Rapid and there was a great campsite right there
There was also a French woman who ran a hotel and rented cabins- in
Chesuncook Village pop 5

Ken- What about Fawn Lake??? - another inside joke?
Fred

ot health care
 

On 2009-09-18 19:37:39 -0400, Tim Lysyk said:

David LaCourse wrote:

Uh, Tim, there is no such thing as a free lunch Of course they pay,
through taxes, fees, etc. If Obama has his way, my health care costs
will go through the roof. Without tort reform (sorry Carolina guys),
the expense will always remain high. Except for the obvious blunder
(removing the left leg when the right one was the intended one), can
Canadians sue for what they *think* was malpractice? Do they? Do the
laws in Canada discourage such actions? They certainly don't in this
country.


I don't pay health care insurance premiums. I do pay taxes, and that's
what covers my health care. My taxes are not much higher, if at all,
than those in the US. If I have to have an expensive procedure, it is
covered. If I have surgery, I do not pay extra fees. If my wife has a
child, we do not pay extra fees. That's how it works for us. We think
governments should look after people's health care.It works well for
us, regardless of what you think and what propaganda you listen to.

I had over $100,000 in surgery, health care, etc with my prostate
cancer. It didn't cost me anything except about $1000 in premiums. My
first wife had both of our children in military hospitals - not the
best of care, but it was at least free. My monthly medicine costs
someone several hundred dollars each month, but it costs me zip, nada,
zilch.

I really cannot understand the objection that many in the US seem to
have to making health care affordable for all its citizens.
'
Tim, most do NOT feel that way. Most do not want the Democrats running
it. Can you not see what a mess our government has made of Social
Security, the military, Amtrak, or anything else they touch with their
greedy little fingers? Government care might work in Canada with a
population of 33 million, but we have California with more than your
population. Throw in the entire country with a population almost ten
times that of Canada, and you have problems. Given that the UK,
Canada, France, and Germany do not have a combined population anywhere
near what we have, you have a problem. What works for you and the UK
may not work for us.

And, does Canada and the UK have as much government corruption as we
have? Do you have lobbyists that make more money than our President?
Do you have ParliamentCritters that do not have to PAY taxes but WRITE
your taxes? WE DO. We have a third world government, full of
corruption on both sides of the aisle. Do you have all the money and
more that you made in the past 8 years? Have you ever had a Prime
Minister that did? We have. Turn over 1/6th of our economy to yet
another government agency to run and there will be insurmountable
problems, more bureaucracy than man has ever seen before, and all of
them will be Democrats so they can vote in more people like themselves.
Our government is already an animal in the process of eating itself.

Dave
You still haven't answer the question: Can you sue your health care
giver, your doctor, because he did what he thought was correct?

ot health care
 

On Sep 18, 5:34*pm, "Tom Littleton" wrote:
"David LaCourse" wrote in message

news:2009091808295675249-dplacourse@aolcom...

Richard, without a doubt, you are a bigger asshole than Fortenberry.

ahhh, we're all assholes. I doubt the size difference between the two is all
that significant.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * bsegTom

It ain't so much the size......it's whether or not it's paid for.

g.

ot health care
 

Fred wrote:
Ken- What about Fawn Lake??? - another inside joke?

There is no Fawn Lake.

One of the roff regulars recommended to a total Yellowstone
newbie asking for advice that it might be a good idea to go
into grizzly country in September based on what he'd heard
from an outfitter. Destination; Fawn Lake.

In September, there is no Fawn Lake.

Long story short, many roffians hiked all the way up to that
occasional lake, mostly weeds "destination", few, if any, fish
were caught but proof positive was allegedly proffered that
something called "Fawn Lake" exists in June.

So yeah, inside joke. I lost a bet with another roffian when
the "pertinacious prove Forty wrong posse" declined to waste
a precious day of their Yellowstone vacation on the third,
fourth or fifth year of the "Fawn Lake" joke. I coulda swore
I had those suckers gut hooked but then I didn't hike all the
way up there near as many times as they did. LOL !!

--
Ken Fortenberry