Fishing - Bull Trout

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- - Bull Trout (http://www.fishingbanter.com/showthread.php?t=3639)

"Jonathan Cook" wrote in message
m...
"Danl" wrote in message
...

...and you are correct! As a matter of fact, no one should be treated as
a
high priest. Except maybe Willi.

Willi, HPOTF -- I'll second that.

That's an important distinction. Whenever I hear scientists equated to
"priests" my radar goes off.

Sorry, Danl, I didn't mean to imply any of the things you wrote.
But if you look at rationalism and how it plays out and is
maintained, the parallels to society-controlling orthodox religions
is quite strong.

No need to apologize, Jon. But I strongly disagree with your analysis that
the parallels are strong. It is my experience that in areas of scientific
endeavor, new ideas are not only welcome, but are strongly sought after.
Billions and billions (pardon me, CS) of dollars are spent every year trying
to expand the knowledge base. There exists a vast number of people whose
jobs are to create new technology to replace the old. I don't perceive any
parrallel to these endeavors within the society-controlling orthodox
religions.

Danl

JR wrote in message ...
[I guess Huxley wrote:]

"Thus we must not expect too much of the term species. ..."

I couldn't agree more. The problem is we do expect too much. We
have very powerful legislation depending on it (the Endangered
Species Act). We hear about the thousands of species lost every
month in tropical forest clearing (which, btw, I doubt is "true").
While my far-Lumper leaning may lead to absurdities, so does the
far-Splitter leaning, which I think is the prevailing atitude
today. It's no wonder average people applying a little common
sense get put off by some of the applications of the ESA.

Jon.

Jonathan Cook wrote:

JR wrote in message ...
[I guess Huxley wrote:]

"Thus we must not expect too much of the term species. ..."

I couldn't agree more. The problem is we do expect too much. We
have very powerful legislation depending on it (the Endangered
Species Act). We hear about the thousands of species lost every
month in tropical forest clearing (which, btw, I doubt is "true").

I don't know about thousands every month, but it wouldn't surprise me if
the numbers were close to that high.

While my far-Lumper leaning may lead to absurdities, so does the
far-Splitter leaning, which I think is the prevailing atitude
today. It's no wonder average people applying a little common
sense get put off by some of the applications of the ESA.

In the end, it's going to all be decided by what people think is worth
saving. I reckon "common sense" would lead many if not most average
Americans to think dozens, hundreds, thousands of nondescript,
not-obviously-useful critters are worth sacrificing if it means even one
job created or saved. On the other hand, a whole lot of average
Americans would think it little less than a tragedy if the Deschutes
Redsides (not even a sub-species, simply a unique strain) went the way
of the dodo.

JR

"Yuji Sakuma" wrote in message
.. .

The problem is that the vicious attacks that regularly fly back and
forth in
this newsgroup are almost certainly of zero interest to anybody
except the
protagonists. Unfortunately, it is not possible to know from a
header what
is contained in a post without actually opening it and reading it;
otherwise
I for one, would not waste my time opening many posts to this
newsgroup.
The intemperate nature of contributions in recent times may have
discouraged
new people from participating. Who wants to be insulted by someone
who
doesn't even know them? It happened to me. And as others have
noted, the
preponderance of off-topic posts may have caused many who used to
post to
give up. I was actually beginning to wonder if OT should be
re-defined as
"On Topic" and reserved for posts about flyfishing because sometimes
there
seem to be far fewer of them than off-topic posts. This would
minimize
wasted time for the (probable) majority not interested in reading
about
American politics in a flyfishing forum and who are innocently
looking for
talk about fishing.

Engaging in insult and invective puts one in the company of (if not
necessarily on a par with) the likes of Chaucer, Shakespeare, Swift,
Clemens, Wilde, Shaw, Mencken, and innumerable lesser luminaries, and
that's just the ones who wrote in English. Hell, you can buy whole
books full of the **** the ancient Romans used to fling at one
another. People have been doing this for about as long as they've had
the means to communicate with one another. Complaints about it
probably started within seconds after the first sample was offered.
Doubtless, you can see the effect it's had so far. It's nice to think
of what a world full of nice people might be like, but I don't think
it would be as interesting as the one we live in. No murder? Yeah,
that would be cool...but then there'd be no Hamlet. No
slavery?.....no Huck Finn. It's a trade off. Scale it down a bit and
we end up something like the difference between a moderated news group
and ROFF. Your freedom to say what you please, including registering
complaints about what someone else might say, comes at the price of
everyone else's freedom to do the same.

However, judging from recent posts, the worst of it
seems to have passed.

It'll be back.

Another observation is that the number posters seems
to be shrinking to a smaller and smaller core group- something is
happening
and I don't think it is good.

The number of posters shrinks and then it expands and then it shrinks
and then it expands.......

Nothing is happening that hasn't happened many times before and it
will continue to happen, off and on, for as long as unmoderated usenet
groups survive which, to be sure, may not be all that long. You see,
the REAL problem, as I've mentioned here before, is that unmoderated
usenet groups are the closest thing to a democratic institution that
the world has ever seen......and a LOT of people simply don't like
democracy very much. What's happening here that isn't good is what
always happens to free speech.

Maybe it is just Darwinism in play.

That metaphor has long been stretched way past the breaking point. No
one has to participate here. Darwin had nothing to say about such a
world.

I
disagree with your comment about wording, I don't think the
discussions
would be any less lively if people were nice to each other because I
think
more people would participate and more ideas would come forth.

There are plenty of moderated fishing fora on the web. How do they
compare? More to the point, if they are better why would anyone
interested only in talk of fishing even WANT to be here? There may be
places on the internet where people discuss fishing nicely and in a
lively fashion, but I haven't found any myself. Nor have I seen one
in which more ideas come forth than here. Any recommendations?

Wolfgang

"Wolfgang" wrote...
"Yuji Sakuma" wrote...
The problem is that the vicious attacks that regularly fly back and
forth in this newsgroup are almost certainly of zero interest to anybody
except the protagonists.

Nah. It's like a train wreck - sometimes a person can't help but stare at the
carnage.

snip
However, judging from recent posts, the worst of it
seems to have passed.

It'll be back.

Fer sure. It's kinda like passing a kidney stone, going through the unspeakable
pain, and having the doctor say, "Well, at least you got that small one out of
the way." ;-)
--
TL,
Tim
------------------------
http://css.sbcma.com/timj

"Greg Pavlov" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 10 Feb 2004 11:21:42 -0600, "Wolfgang"
wrote:

It's nice to think
of what a world full of nice people might be like, but I don't
think
it would be as interesting as the one we live in. No murder?
Yeah,
that would be cool...but then there'd be no Hamlet. No
slavery?.....no Huck Finn. It's a trade off.

I'd dump Hamlet & Huck Finn anytime if it made the
world less "interesting" in your sense of it. So,
I imagine, would most of the victims.

Well, the examples were hyperbolic. I don't think it would be
difficult to come up with others that would make the choice more
problematic. But, I think you already know that, so I won't bother.
At any rate, it's academic.....it ain't gonna happen. What probably
WILL happen eventually is the disappearance of freewheeling groups
like ROFF. The victims here more or less routinely express a strong
desire to make it less interesting.

Personally, I think it's a shame, and not just because I happen to
like spirited discussions; without them really nasty assholes can hide
in a place like this (or any other for that matter) for years. How
far would history's great depots have gotten if they were subjected to
a bit of goading in usenet early in their careers?

Wolfgang
wanna dump the NEXT hamlet or huck finn? this is the place to do it.
:)

JR wrote:

True. Part of my problem is that I tend to look into ROFF on my work
computer at the end of the workday, and by that time I'm usually ****ed
off about some damn thing or other.

It's precisely that sort of thing that has me saying often that workmis
overrated.

But then, I figure if everybody worded their comments a little
differently, ROFF would be, if not entirely suffused with sweetness and
light, certainly a lot less lively. ;)

Youbetcha

ODFW does do a good job, I think, with the Deschutes hatchery summer
steelhead.

Indeed they do. I've read that something like 60% of the steelhead in
the Deschutes are hatchery fish, but that something like 60% of the
fish caught are natives. That points out one of the differences in
fish caused simply by being born and raised in a hatchery.

The fish are bred at the Round Butte hatchery (which is run
by ODFW but owned by Portland General Electric Co), with brood
stock taken from the Pelton dam fish ladder. It's good to hear that
they find new fresh brood stock each year. I think that didn't used
to be the case. It's an interesting operation, but unlike Oak Springs
you can't just drop in to visit; you need to phone ahead to make
arrangements.

This is one of those things you'd obviously consider doing that most
folks would be bashful about. I was quite surprised when the Olympic
National Park biologist was not just willing to talk, but actually
eager. I think more of us should call ahead, find a good time and have
a real tour at one of these hatchery facilities. The people operating
the hatcheries are often so isolated that they will look forward to a
visit. Next time I plan a trip to the Deschutes I will call Round
Butte and see about a tour.

Thanks

Chas
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"Wolfgang" wrote:

At any rate, it's academic.....it ain't gonna happen.

That's a common enough phrase, it's academic, and your definition is
what we usually are thinking when we use it. Ever wonder what that
says about academia?

I don't intend to insult anyone with that comment, it's just that I
like expressions and enjoy digging at their roots.

Chas

Chas
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Hi Wolfgang,

The Darwinism metaphor might have been inappropriate but I used it from the
angle that natural selection might be leading toward a result that only
those who thrive in the insults, bad language, politics, etc. in this
newsgroup will remain standing. Everyone else will be driven out. Which is
exactly what you are saying ought to happen because it's a democracy. Maybe
so, but this could end up with the newgroup being co-opted by a handful of
people instead being supported by a potentially large number of fly
fishermen with a wide spectrum of interests and attitudes who might interact
and enjoy the newsgroup. Okay, maybe guys like Shakespeare, etc., did use
insult as a means of expression as you say but so what? Out of all
flyfishermen, I would venture to say that few have even read Shakespeare and
the others mentioned more than just superficially, let alone enjoyed them.
Probably, like me, they were forced to read him in high school and never
bothered to do so again. Yes, I know that you are a big fan of insult and I
have also seen that you have plenty of interesting things to say.
Nevertheless, I don't think flinging insults at each other is considered
customary good behaviour in today's society. But much worse than that, I
think it that it is actually boring for innocent bystanders. In my opinion,
posts to newgroups should have general interest, not just be two
perpetrators duking it out in a private vendetta. I was gratified to see
Charles and JR come to their senses; there was good information in their
communications but the trading of insults detracted from my enjoyment of it.
Now, insults used in jest are a totally different matter, they can be some
of the best humour around and I do enjoy them. American politics is
important to everyone in the world, including to non-Americans like me, but
I get my fix elsewhere. I see no logical reason why it should be discussed
in a flyfishing newsgroup - aren't there any politics newsgroups around?

Best regards,

Yuji Sakuma

================================================== ================

"Wolfgang" wrote in message
...

"Danl" wrote:

Billions and billions (pardon me, CS) of dollars are spent every year
trying
to expand the knowledge base. There exists a vast number of people
whose
jobs are to create new technology to replace the old. I don't perceive
any
parrallel to these endeavors within the society-controlling orthodox
religions.

In fact, it's quite the opposite. They fight for the status quo,
stability, and are anti progress, just ask Gallaleo and Darwin.

Chas
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