Fishing - Swimming with waders experiment. READ THIS!!

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Swimming with waders experiment. READ THIS!!

As promised, today I tested (intentionally) the effect of swimming in
chest-high breathables while wearing a wading belt or not wearing a wading
belt. Here is my experiement, my results and my conclusions. It may be
suprising...

THE TEST:
I have a pair of Orvis breathable waders and a wide Orvis belt. The waders
fit comfortably; they are snug enough to not be baggy in the knees or butt,
but loose enough so that I can normally step up onto a height similar to a
kitchen chair, or squat down without the legs binding up. I think anyone who
owns waders that they would qualify as 'a good fit' have approximately the
same type of fit as these.

The belt I wear has a very wide back (similar to a weight belt) as I have a
stiff back and this belt provides good support. It closes by passing through
a plastic loop in front, then doubling back on itself where it seals with a
10 inch strip of velcro. The belt does not stretch or slip, and I normally
wear it above my hipbones, over my belly button. I usually wear it quite
snugly; it would be difficult to insert a finger between the belt and wader,
but it does not impede the ability to take a deep breath. Until now, I felt
that the prime purpose of the belt was to support my back, and even
considered not using it occasionally.

The waders have an additional water seal at the top, with an elastic string
that is sewn into the seam. This can be pulled tight once the waders are on,
and I usually do this, only loosening it to retrieve or store items (like a
camera) in the chest pocket which is in the interior of the waders.

I put the waders over dry swimming trunks, dry socks (red, of course...g)
and a dry t-shirt. I put on my wading boots (without gravel guards),
squatted down to press the air out of the legs, tightened the belt, stood up
and tightened the top elastic cord. This is exactly how I gear up when I go
fishing.

I then lowered myself into the pool by climbing down the ladder into the
shallow end, facing toward the pool. As I lowered myself, the water pressure
squeezed the air out of the legs, which 'burped' up past the waist belt once
I reached crotch-deep. Then, once I was standing in the water (about
mid-chest deep), I started walking towards the deep end of the pool. I waded
in until the water was at the very top of my waders, then proceeded until
the water was at my chin at which time I dropped down underwater and held my
breath to see what happened.

Initially, I was expecting to find my legs buoyant and floating upwards, as
has been stated so many times. I can definitively say that this is NOT TRUE
with breathables. When I entered the water down the ladder, the water
pressure squeezed all the excess air out of the legs, and there was no air
trapped in the legs or chest whatsoever. When I lay on my back with my legs
extended I floated very comfortably with absolutely no feeling of having to
compensate for buoyant legs, and could easily keep my face and mouth above
the water. When I brought my knees up to my chest, my lower body sank and I
took a position with the top of my head just at the surface of the water,
but I remained in the upright position. When I re-extended my legs, I again
floated shallow enough to breathe.

I could easily move with a backpaddling stroke, and I even rolled onto my
chest and dove downwards and was able to swim as if I was wearing just a
swimsuit. The waders were tightly pressed against my body, so I was able to
move my legs and kick very easily and without any constriction, without any
interference of motion, and without any complications from excess buoyancy.

Then I stood up in the neck-deep water and removed the wading belt and
loosened the top elastic cord. Initially, the water trickled down the waders
along my back, but within seconds, I could feel the water in my legs and
socks. Again, I ducked down underwater and floated up motionlessly to see
what happened.

There was absolutely no difference in buoyancy, and again I was able to
float easily keeping my face and mouth above water. I was also able to
backpaddle easily and move towards the side of the pool.

However, once I started moving backwards, the water filled my waders
completely and the legs 'billowed' slightly away from my skin. It was not a
full 'ballooning' effect: it was more like suddenly wearing extra large,
loose pants. Whereas before, the waders were pressed tightly to my legs, now
they were loose and billowy. This looseness made a very noticeable
difference in my ability to kick my legs, although it did not affect how I
floated in a 'dead float'.

Again, I rolled over and dove underwater, and found that my ablility to swim
was impeded a bit. I could still move, but when I kicked my legs, the waders
shifted around and got slightly tangled in my legs. It did not prohibit me
from swimming, as they did not 'parachute' open and slow me down, but I
absolutely preferred the earlier effect with the belt, where the waders were
unnoticable. Imagine trying to run in extra baggy jeans, and you can
understand what I'm talking about.

Then I backstroked to the side of the deep end of the pool and tried
climbing out. Here is where the difference was most noticable. I was
absolutely and completely unable to pull myself up at the side of the pool.
When I was immersed, the waders were weighless, but once I got myself up to
where my arms were holding me out of the water, the legs and body of the
waders were so full of water (probably in excess of 150 pounds...) that I
could not pull my body out of the pool. Kicking did not help, as the legs
were so full of water that I could not bend them. The harder I tried to
pull/kick myself out, with every little gain of an inch out the pool, the
heavier the waders got and the more impossible it was to climb out.

I swam over to the ladder, and tried to climb out from the shallow end.
Again, once I got up so that my crotch was out of the water, the weight of
the trapped water combined with the full legs made it impossible to lift my
legs to the next rung. It was completely impossible to climb out: if I had
to urgently get out, I could not have done it!

I was not in a position to flop forward onto my belly to drain the legs, so
I climbed back down and swam to the very shallow end of the pool. I stood
facing the pool and managed to hoist myself up until my butt was on the
ledge with my legs still in the water. Then I tried to swing my legs out of
the water, one leg at a time. Even that proved impossible!! The weight in
one lower leg alone was probably in excess of 50 pounds, and I could not
even raise one leg up to the ledge beside me. I could have asked for
assistance from a friend there, having her lift my foot, but I also was
afraid of the waders 'blowing out' if I removed my leg entirely from the
water. I lay on my back hoping to drain the water out of the upper part of
my waders, but this had no effect at all on the amount of water in the lower
legs. So I hopped back into the water, removed my boots and took off my
waders before I climbed out.

CONCLUSIONS:

A fisherman might find themselves in a similar situation as I was in if they
were fishing a calm pool and the bank collapsed under their feet. My
experiement did not take the effects of falling into moving current into
account, other than the current differential when backpaddling.

Nontheless, I did discover that some 'myths' about wearing wading belts seem
patently untrue. In my test, there was absolutely NO BUOYANT EFFECT from air
trapped in the legs, as it was squeezed out when I entered the water. I
would maintain that any fisherman who was standing in water deeper than
their waist would have the same thing happen as they entered the water.
Therefore, there is no trapped air to float up your legs.

Also, the effect of the current on waders full of water is not pronounced,
but it is enough to impede your agility. Images of getting 'dragged down' by
waders full of water are ungrounded, as I was able to float at exactly the
same level of buoyancy without the wading belt as with it.

While swimming underwater, the effect of the belt was very pronounced. The
waders with the belt, contrary to common belief, were more snug and provided
no interference at all. The waders without the belt were baggy, billowy, and
were not easy to swim in.

The HUGEST effect, and a *tremendously important* one, IMO, is the
difficulty of getting out of the water. Although I did not try to get out of
the pool with the belt on (an large oversight, I think), I believe it would
have been quite managable, as anyone who has ever fished with waders on can
attest. However (and this is a BIG 'however'), once the waders were filled
with water, I was completely unable to get out of the pool!! I could not
pull myself up and flop onto the shore, as my legs remained lower than my
body and full of water. I could not climb a ladder, nor could I even raise
my legs out of the pool once I was sitting on the edge.

CONCLUSIONS:

I think if a fisherman fell into a steep-sided pool or stream while wearing
waders without a belt, they would quickly be in a very serious
life-threatening situation. The only way I can imagine getting out would be
to slice the waders open, or to somehow get them off. It would be impossible
to grab a branch and haul yourself out, impossible to stand and step up over
a bank more than 12 or 14 inches tall, and impossible for friends on shore
to pull you up unless they were able to drag 300-400 pounds (your body
weight plus the water in the waders) up an incline. Even if you managed to
get out, your waders would likely split open from the pressure or else get
torn to shreds in the panic. If the river was the right type, then another
egress option would be to find a shallow bank and slither onto it on your
belly until you were able to raise your legs and drain them. However, I
would certainly not want to hope to find a spot exactly like that if I fell
in the water.

FINAL ANALYSIS:

Until about an hour ago, I was one of those who theorized that there really
wasn't much difference between wearing a belt or not. I am now a complete
convert: I am even going to retrofit the belt I have so that it has a backup
buckle in addition to the velcro. I will *never, ever* wade without a wading
belt! Although swimming is not greatly affected, I now know first-hand that
it would indeed be a life-threatening situation trying to get out of a
steep-sided river with waders full of water.

Please, everybody, WEAR A WADING BELT!! If you think somehow its not as
graphic as I just wrote about, go to the neighborhood pool and jump in.
Hell, I dare you to lay down in your bathtub, then try to get out! Its
frightening!

--riverman

Swimming with waders experiment. READ THIS!!

"riverman" wrote
Please, everybody, WEAR A WADING BELT!! If you think somehow its not as
graphic as I just wrote about, go to the neighborhood pool and jump in.
Hell, I dare you to lay down in your bathtub, then try to get out! Its
frightening!

Thank you for your research ... I had reached the always wear a belt
conclusion without the science just a couple dips without one on, and
fighting back up onto shore with filled waders.

On a similar subject, for those that pram or boat. I once very nearly fell
out of my 8 foot pram into deep water, fishing Davis Damsel time. It was
close enough that I got to wondering, "Could I get back in the pram if I
fell out." so when I got near shore in water tip toe deep I jumped
overboard and tried. No F__king way even with a tiny jump from those tippy
toes.

I wear a belt wading and always have a PFD or two in my pram, duckboat, or
kickboat ... ON if I've standing to cast, or leaning over to retrieve decoys
.... always close enough to the edge that I could grab it from outside the
boat

To me this is the same as always buckling my seat belt when driving ... just
sensible

Swimming with waders experiment. READ THIS!!

snippage for brevity only
FINAL ANALYSIS:
Please, everybody, WEAR A WADING BELT!! If you think somehow its not as
graphic as I just wrote about, go to the neighborhood pool and jump in.
Hell, I dare you to lay down in your bathtub, then try to get out! Its
frightening!

Outstanding. This is the best analysis I've ever seen on wearing a wading
belt and should be sent into every fly fishing magazine. One other thing to
consider is cold. When cold water gets down the waders in an emergency
situation like you described, the cold will seriously sap your strength
further complicating your exit. Again, thanks Myron, you may have saved a
life today and I'll definately refer people back to this post in the future.

--
Frank Reid
Reverse email to reply

Swimming with waders experiment. READ THIS!!

riverman wrote:
I think if a fisherman fell into a steep-sided pool or stream while wearing
waders without a belt, they would quickly be in a very serious
life-threatening situation. The only way I can imagine getting out would be
to slice the waders open, or to somehow get them off.

On that point, do you think you could have got them off underwater in
the deep end?

Thank you for the great analysis, riverman.

Swimming with waders experiment. READ THIS!!

Nice and complete test, Myron. I think I remarked in the other thread about
the water pressure forcing the air out of the waders, and the belt and top snug
tie-off will prevent any water from replacing the air. The two times that I
went swimming in waders I was wearing a very snug belt and had the top string
tight around my chest. Water got in the top part and trickled into my legs,
but it was not enough to prevent me from walking or getting out of the stream.

Great test and thanks for reporting it.

Swimming with waders experiment. READ THIS!!

"Gary M" wrote in message
...
riverman wrote:
I think if a fisherman fell into a steep-sided pool or stream while
wearing waders without a belt, they would quickly be in a very serious
life-threatening situation. The only way I can imagine getting out would
be to slice the waders open, or to somehow get them off.

On that point, do you think you could have got them off underwater in the
deep end?

I thought about trying that, but even in the warm pool and with no current,
I was very hesitant to try to get them off underwater. The thought of
having these things tangled around my legs was worrisome. I'm very certain
that, in a river emergency situation, by the time I thought about trying
that, I would be too cold and panicked to actually accomplish it. It would
involve unlacing the boots, getting them off, getting the gravel guards off,
removing my lifejacket, removing my wading jacket, removing any sweater I
put on after putting on my waders, unclipping the shoulder straps, loosening
the elastic, working the waders down over my legs, grabbing the toes and
pulling my legs out one at a time......you get the idea. I can't hold my
breath that long.

I think I'll do a followup experiement tomorrow. I want to know how much
water will get in if I don't backpaddle, and how hard it is to climb out
when the belt stays on. At that time, I think I'll try to remove them while
swimming and let you know how it goes. I might also put on my spare vest
with a few items in the pockets and see what affect that has.

If you don't hear from me, it didn't go well. ;-)

--riverman

PS: I did think an improvement to waders would be an 'emergency release'.
Imagine that, instead of being sewn on in back, the shoulder straps actually
run down inside the material of the waders where they are looped around a
strap that is inside a track, running parallel to the elastic cord. In an
emergency, you could reach inside the front of your waders, grab the end of
this strap, and pull it out (like removing the string in the waist of a pair
of sweat pants). Then shoulder straps would then be relased front and back,
and you could get the waders off without having to delayer all that gear.

Swimming with waders experiment. READ THIS!!

Riverman writes:

I thought about trying that, but even in the warm pool and with no current,
I was very hesitant to try to get them off underwater. The thought of
having these things tangled around my legs was worrisome. I'm very certain
that, in a river emergency situation, by the time I thought about trying
that, I would be too cold and panicked to actually accomplish it. It would
involve unlacing the boots, getting them off, getting the gravel guards off,
removing my lifejacket, removing my wading jacket, removing any sweater I
put on after putting on my waders, unclipping the shoulder straps, loosening
the elastic, working the waders down over my legs, grabbing the toes and
pulling my legs out one at a time......you get the idea. I can't hold my
breath that long.

I think I'll do a followup experiement tomorrow. I want to know how much
water will get in if I don't backpaddle, and how hard it is to climb out
when the belt stays on. At that time, I think I'll try to remove them while
swimming and let you know how it goes. I might also put on my spare vest
with a few items in the pockets and see what affect that has.

If you don't hear from me, it didn't go well. ;-)

--riverman

PS: I did think an improvement to waders would be an 'emergency release'.
Imagine that, instead of being sewn on in back, the shoulder straps actually
run down inside the material of the waders where they are looped around a
strap that is inside a track, running parallel to the elastic cord. In an
emergency, you could reach inside the front of your waders, grab the end of
this strap, and pull it out (like removing the string in the waist of a pair
of sweat pants). Then shoulder straps would then be relased front and back,
and you could get the waders off without having to delayer all that gear.

If you need to remove your waders, the best way (especially in an emergency) is
to cut them off. That is what the guy that my friend saved in the middle of
the Rapid last May.

Swimming with waders experiment. READ THIS!!

"Dave LaCourse" wrote in message
...

PS: I did think an improvement to waders would be an 'emergency release'.
Imagine that, instead of being sewn on in back, the shoulder straps
actually
run down inside the material of the waders where they are looped around a
strap that is inside a track, running parallel to the elastic cord. In an
emergency, you could reach inside the front of your waders, grab the end
of
this strap, and pull it out (like removing the string in the waist of a
pair
of sweat pants). Then shoulder straps would then be relased front and
back,
and you could get the waders off without having to delayer all that gear.

If you need to remove your waders, the best way (especially in an
emergency) is
to cut them off. That is what the guy that my friend saved in the middle
of
the Rapid last May.

I completely concur. I think first, however, I'd slice the legs WIDE open.
Probably just pull the waders forward down below my knees, stab through
them, then grab the hole with my hands and rip them open big.

Or just wear a wading belt! :-)

--riverman

Swimming with waders experiment. READ THIS!!

riverman wrote:

"Gary M" wrote in message
...
riverman wrote:
I think if a fisherman fell into a steep-sided pool or stream while
wearing waders without a belt, they would quickly be in a very serious
life-threatening situation. The only way I can imagine getting out would
be to slice the waders open, or to somehow get them off.

On that point, do you think you could have got them off underwater in the
deep end?

I thought about trying that, but even in the warm pool and with no current,
I was very hesitant to try to get them off underwater. The thought of
having these things tangled around my legs was worrisome. I'm very certain
that, in a river emergency situation, by the time I thought about trying
that, I would be too cold and panicked to actually accomplish it. It would
involve unlacing the boots, getting them off, getting the gravel guards off,
removing my lifejacket, removing my wading jacket, removing any sweater I
put on after putting on my waders, unclipping the shoulder straps, loosening
the elastic, working the waders down over my legs, grabbing the toes and
pulling my legs out one at a time......you get the idea. I can't hold my
breath that long.

I think I'll do a followup experiement tomorrow. I want to know how much
water will get in if I don't backpaddle, and how hard it is to climb out
when the belt stays on. At that time, I think I'll try to remove them while
swimming and let you know how it goes. I might also put on my spare vest
with a few items in the pockets and see what affect that has.

If you don't hear from me, it didn't go well. ;-)

--riverman

PS: I did think an improvement to waders would be an 'emergency release'.
Imagine that, instead of being sewn on in back, the shoulder straps actually
run down inside the material of the waders where they are looped around a
strap that is inside a track, running parallel to the elastic cord. In an
emergency, you could reach inside the front of your waders, grab the end of
this strap, and pull it out (like removing the string in the waist of a pair
of sweat pants). Then shoulder straps would then be relased front and back,
and you could get the waders off without having to delayer all that gear.

You might also try falling in ( as in slipping on a rock) to see how that would
have an effect on the air in the waders that was not able to get forced out by
walking in. Be careful and have a friend there with you just in case.

Darin

Swimming with waders experiment. READ THIS!!

You might also try falling in ( as in slipping on a rock)

You shoulda had Frank with you to do the testing.

Bill

Who loves ya, Frank? :-)

Well, not a pair of waders, but I've cut my way out of a float tube before.
To all, get a thumb-operated, serrated-edge, folding knife and attach it to
your shirt with an extended zinger. Serrated cuts through nylon strapping
much easier and quicker than a straight blade, one hand operation is really
helpful, and finally, attached to something you're not likely to loose
immediately (i.e. vest). I keep one inside my vest and ensure I can pull it
out to full arm extension. Put some nylon cord on the zinger if the zinger
isn't long enough.
Oh, Bill, my wife loves me, my daughters love me, my creditors love me, and
my favorite fly shop proprietor loves me, so thhhhtttt!

--
Frank Reid
Reverse email to reply

Swimming with waders experiment. READ THIS!!

"Darin Minor" wrote in message
...

You might also try falling in ( as in slipping on a rock) to see how that
would
have an effect on the air in the waders that was not able to get forced
out by
walking in. Be careful and have a friend there with you just in case.

Good idea. I think its uncommon to get out to a rock with a pool deep enough
for total submersion without wading past your waist, but it'd be good to
know what would happen, just in case. I'll add that to tomorrows trials.

1) Getting out with the wading belt on,
2) Jumping (falling) in before any partial immersion forces residual air
out,
3) Seeing how much water gets in if I don't hold the top open,
4) Taking off the waders underwater.

Any other ideas?

--riverman

(good thing its the hot season!)

Swimming with waders experiment. READ THIS!!

Myron writes:

Or just wear a wading belt! :-)

The guy had a belt on and I'm sure it did its job, but he was on the rock for
15 or 20 minutes, so his waders couldn't help but fill. Unfortunately, I don't
know *how* he cut them off. I would imagine just cutting the legs open at the
ankles would do the job, however.

Swimming with waders experiment. READ THIS!!

"Dave LaCourse" wrote in message
...
Myron writes:

Or just wear a wading belt! :-)

The guy had a belt on and I'm sure it did its job, but he was on the rock
for
15 or 20 minutes, so his waders couldn't help but fill. Unfortunately, I
don't
know *how* he cut them off. I would imagine just cutting the legs open at
the
ankles would do the job, however.

I think so, too. Where's that story posted, Dave?

--riverman

Swimming with waders experiment. READ THIS!!

Myron writes:

I think so, too. Where's that story posted, Dave?

In the other tread about wader safety. I didn't see it, but talked to the guys
that saved the dude from the river.

Swimming with waders experiment. READ THIS!!

Myron writes:

I think so, too. Where's that story posted, Dave?

In the other tread about wader safety. I didn't see it, but talked to the guys
that saved the dude from the river.

Swimming with waders experiment. READ THIS!!

"Kevin Vang" wrote in message
...
...if you are in water cold enough to make you wear
waders...

An interesting, and thus far ignored, consideration. While Myron's
experiments are fascinating and have yielded important information, it bears
noting that avoiding impermeable fabrics in the first place (when possible)
makes the whole issue moot. Having conducted similar experiments myself in
black spandex, I can state unequivocally that floatation, drag, and dead
weight are non-issues. Having also spent a good deal of time astream with a
well known top-posting ****tard while he conducted similar experiments in
unsealed nylon pants as well as in shorts, I can attest that they work just
about as well. But then, he DID throw caution (as well as good sense) to
the wind on a recent outing by wearing waders. :(

Wolfgang
but then, he IS older than me. :)

Swimming with waders experiment. READ THIS!!

Kevin Vang writes:

Way back when I was a 15 year old poolrat, one thing we all had
to do to pass the Red Cross Lifesaving Course was to jump into
the pool fully clothed, then strip down in the water and turn
your pants into a PFD by tying knots in the legs and blowing them
up. It wasn't hard to do back then, but I may have been slightly
more limber then than I am now. :(

Of course, if you are in water cold enough to make you wear
waders, I think the extra insulation they would provide would
be more useful than extra flotation. I believe the definition
of a PFD is "a device to prevent you from drowning long enough
to die of hypothermia."

Kevin

That was standard training in Navy bootcamp back in the mid 50s. You had to
use your trousers, jumper, and even your dixie cup white hat. The trousers and
jumper could support your weight fairly well. You could trap air in the hat,
but I wouldn't want to depend on it for very long.

Swimming with waders experiment. READ THIS!!

riverman wrote:

"Darin Minor" wrote in message
...

You might also try falling in ( as in slipping on a rock) to see how that
would
have an effect on the air in the waders that was not able to get forced
out by
walking in. Be careful and have a friend there with you just in case.

Good idea. I think its uncommon to get out to a rock with a pool deep enough
for total submersion without wading past your waist, but it'd be good to
know what would happen, just in case. I'll add that to tomorrows trials.

1) Getting out with the wading belt on,
2) Jumping (falling) in before any partial immersion forces residual air
out,
3) Seeing how much water gets in if I don't hold the top open,
4) Taking off the waders underwater.

Any other ideas?

--riverman

(good thing its the hot season!)

What about just pulling your waders down so that they can't hold as much water?
Leaving your boots on for traction once you get on shore might be a good thing,
plus being able to pull your waders back up may help retain what little body
heat you may have left.

Darin

Swimming with waders experiment. READ THIS!!

Excellent service to the community, Myron, much appreciated. I
forwarded your message to all of my fishing buddies.

--
Jarmo Hurri

Commercial email countermeasures included in header email
address. Remove all garbage from header email address when replying,
or just use .

Swimming with waders experiment. READ THIS!!