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Lulea Sweden
Hi,
I will be in Lulea, Northern Sweden for a wedding July 21-26. Can anyone give me information about FFing prospects (mainly trout but would of course be intersted in sea trout and perhaps salmon (no real experience of either of the latter)) Thanks, Gordon |
Last I was there, there weren't no trout, sea trout or greyling. Not
even any bugs! Vaughan, can you help this guy out? --riverman (and how's the new place looking?) |
riverman wrote:
Last I was there, there weren't no trout, sea trout or greyling. Not even any bugs! Vaughan, can you help this guy out? =20 --riverman =20 (and how's the new place looking?) =20 Now be fair mate, we never actually drove through Lule=E5, so there might= =20 have been fish there........ The yard is starting to thaw out and is=20 mostly ice clear and we haven't sunk too deep into the swamp. Then again = the ground hasn't fully thawed yet so I am not feeling to cocky. In=20 another month I will know for sure. Are you coming by this summer? Or=20 are you busy getting organized for your little rant to the Orient? You=20 are welcome if you have the time. So far as I know no clave is planned=20 but plenty of fishing has been........ To answer the original question, some of the local boys are better to=20 give advice than I am, but you could look at: http://biphome.spray.se/angler/ or http://www.secretcreeks.com/ or http://www.fjallen.nu/fiska/index_en.htm to get an idea. There are LOTS of other sites and lots of great fishing. = Lots of not so great as well so take a look at these sites and a map and = then let us know how far do you want to travel and how long you have.....= =2E. /Vaughan |
riverman wrote: Last I was there, there weren't no trout, sea trout or greyling. Not even any bugs! Vaughan, can you help this guy out? =20 --riverman =20 (and how's the new place looking?) =20 Now be fair mate, we never actually drove through Lule=E5, so there might= =20 have been fish there........ The yard is starting to thaw out and is=20 mostly ice clear and we haven't sunk too deep into the swamp. Then again = the ground hasn't fully thawed yet so I am not feeling to cocky. In=20 another month I will know for sure. Are you coming by this summer? Or=20 are you busy getting organized for your little rant to the Orient? You=20 are welcome if you have the time. So far as I know no clave is planned=20 but plenty of fishing has been........ To answer the original question, some of the local boys are better to=20 give advice than I am, but you could look at: http://biphome.spray.se/angler/ or http://www.secretcreeks.com/ or http://www.fjallen.nu/fiska/index_en.htm to get an idea. There are LOTS of other sites and lots of great fishing. = Lots of not so great as well so take a look at these sites and a map and = then let us know how far do you want to travel and how long you have.....= =2E. /Vaughan Hi Gordon.. Vaughan, Riverman Luleå, that's my "neighbourhood". I live 130km south of Luleå, but I spent the whole autumn, august to november, in Luleå. I did some flyfishing during my stay. Although I already had some ideas on where to go fishing, I started out talking to some guys in the local fishing shop. For daytrips they recommended Råne River (in swedish: Råneälven), being the closest spot for decent streamfishing for trout & grayling. It's about an hour of driving away, north of Luleå. The Luleå flyfishing club has an exclusive stretch for members in this river. But that's only 4km out of maybe 200km, so there's plenty of other spots to choose from. I had good fishing for char, but didnt catch any decent sized trouts. But it's a beautiful river and the trouts are definately in there. There are of course plenty of other waters too. The Åby River (Åbyälven) and the Byske River (Byskeälven) are also good alternatives about an hour of driving from Luleå, both direction to the south. Byske River is definately the most well-known of the mentioned rivers. It's where to go if you'd be interested in salmons. If trout is the target, any of the three rivers would be good alternatives, I'd say. I am also the webmaster of the secretcreeks.com-website, that Vaughan referrred to. If you go to www.secretcreeks.com, and click on 'Råneälven' or any of the other rivers in the left menu you'll find photos of the rivers. B.t.w., I just established a forum on this site. Not overly enormous activity there yet, but if you have more questions regarding fishing in northern Sweden, please register a user, post your questions and me, Vaughan or any of the other guys will answer your questions. Best Regards /Erik Holmlund, Skellefteå www.secretcreeks.com Posted via http://scandicangler.com |
Vaughan Hurry wrote in message .. .
riverman wrote: Last I was there, there weren't no trout, sea trout or greyling. Not even any bugs! Vaughan, can you help this guy out? =20 --riverman =20 (and how's the new place looking?) =20 Now be fair mate, we never actually drove through Lule=E5, so there might= =20 have been fish there........ The yard is starting to thaw out and is=20 mostly ice clear and we haven't sunk too deep into the swamp. Then again = the ground hasn't fully thawed yet so I am not feeling to cocky. In=20 another month I will know for sure. Are you coming by this summer? Or=20 are you busy getting organized for your little rant to the Orient? You=20 are welcome if you have the time. So far as I know no clave is planned=20 but plenty of fishing has been........ I don't think I'll be able to get up there this summer, Vaughan. Congo finishes late and Hong Kong starts early, so I only have 6 days open before summer school, and 6 days after. Basically, this will be the summer without a summer. Bummer. However, SWMBO is starting her 2-year program in London this summer, and I'm finishing mine this year, so next year I will have the entire summer free. I might accompany her to the northlands and spend a big chunk of it in scandahoovia. I have this sinking feeling that my cherished summer trips up to that slice of heaven are tracking away from me as life takes its course. You know how much I love that part of the world, but sometimes life carries us in and out and its just too damn hard to steer it. Are there any trips to NZ in your future? I'd certainly be in interested in making my way down there to meet up and fish. --riverman |
riverman wrote:
I don't think I'll be able to get up there this summer, Vaughan. Congo finishes late and Hong Kong starts early, so I only have 6 days open before summer school, and 6 days after. Basically, this will be the summer without a summer. Bummer. However, SWMBO is starting her 2-year program in London this summer, and I'm finishing mine this year, so next year I will have the entire summer free. I might accompany her to the northlands and spend a big chunk of it in scandahoovia. I have this sinking feeling that my cherished summer trips up to that slice of heaven are tracking away from me as life takes its course. You know how much I love that part of the world, but sometimes life carries us in and out and its just too damn hard to steer it. Are there any trips to NZ in your future? I'd certainly be in interested in making my way down there to meet up and fish. --riverman Bugger! I did kinda figure............NZ is possible over the next couple of years but I am not sure, depends on how the research goes (and the funding). I'll let you know if I get the chance. I have fished there in February and July and both trips were amazing. Cicada fishing in February was probably the most enjoyable. Good luck in Hong Kong Vaughan |
That's true. As a teacher, I am clearly aware that being away from the
desk for 8 weeks a year is one aspect of the job that most other professions do not get. Teaching has it shortcomings, of course, but so does every occupation. I like my job, and I like having some time in the summer to go fishing! And likewise, its not as much vacation as most think. Those of you in the profession know what I am talking about, and most of those not in the profession generally aren't convinced unless they had parents who were teachers. --riverman |
riverman wrote:
That's true. As a teacher, I am clearly aware that being away from the desk for 8 weeks a year is one aspect of the job that most other professions do not get. Teaching has it shortcomings, of course, but so does every occupation. I like my job, and I like having some time in the summer to go fishing! And likewise, its not as much vacation as most think. Those of you in the profession know what I am talking about, and most of those not in the profession generally aren't convinced unless they had parents who were teachers. --riverman i am frequently surprised by how few people really grasp or care about the horrible inequity in the work environment and pay structure for our public elementary and secondary school teachers. for any teacher who cares about his/her profession, the workdays are unending and obligations extend throughout the summer; too few folks appreciate the devotion of those teaching the public's community of children; the available classroom resources are always lean; course design and management are often controlled by some bureaucrat in a central office, bowing to political pressure; the kids are frequently hostile and behave poorly, with little motivation for learning or to be taught; and the pay is terrible. i'm ashamed to say that a 1st year teacher with a masters degree and all proper teaching credentials in my city's schools has a starting pay of a little over 29k...and it takes 20 years before he/she can expect to earn over 40k. it's shameful and ridiculous. jeff (and none of my family were/are teachers) |
"Jeff Miller" wrote i'm ashamed to say that a 1st year teacher with a masters degree and all proper teaching credentials in my city's schools has a starting pay of a little over 29k...and it takes 20 years before he/she can expect to earn over 40k. it's shameful and ridiculous. what, you mean to tell me that ron artest isn't worth, like, 40k a ****ing week? yfitp wayno (i mean, just think of the role model aspect!) |
Jeff Miller wrote: i'm ashamed to say that a 1st year teacher with a masters degree and all proper teaching credentials in my city's schools has a starting pay of a little over 29k...and it takes 20 years before he/she can expect to earn over 40k. Working 10 months out of the year, 29K would equate to 35K for the rest of us. Not a bad start, when you consider how relatively easy it is to obtain an education degree and the lack of real knowledge on a subject needed to *teach* it in some states, it is not unrealistic to expect lowered salaries. (Please note i did not say teachers did not *know* their subjects in all cases) Elementary and Secondary education is not the noble profession many folks make it out to be. Can some teachers make a difference in some kid's life, of course. it still does not the whole profession noble. You want to raise teacher salaries? Raise the bar to get in. Wayne I might have left this alone if I wasn't writing checks to the IRS and state today after receiving my property tax bill yesterday. :( |
Jeff Miller wrote: i'm ashamed to say that a 1st year teacher with a masters degree and all proper teaching credentials in my city's schools has a starting pay of a little over 29k...and it takes 20 years before he/she can expect to earn over 40k. Working 10 months out of the year, 29K would equate to 35K for the rest of us. Not a bad start, when you consider how relatively easy it is to obtain an education degree and the lack of real knowledge on a subject needed to *teach* it in some states, it is not unrealistic to expect lowered salaries. (Please note i did not say teachers did not *know* their subjects in all cases) Elementary and Secondary education is not the noble profession many folks make it out to be. Can some teachers make a difference in some kid's life, of course. it still does not the whole profession noble. You want to raise teacher salaries? Raise the bar to get in. Wayne I might have left this alone if I wasn't writing checks to the IRS and state today after receiving my property tax bill yesterday. :( |
In article .com,
"Wayne Knight" wrote: Jeff Miller wrote: i'm ashamed to say that a 1st year teacher with a masters degree and all proper teaching credentials in my city's schools has a starting pay of a little over 29k...and it takes 20 years before he/she can expect to earn over 40k. Working 10 months out of the year, 29K would equate to 35K for the rest of us. Not a bad start, when you consider how relatively easy it is to obtain an education degree and the lack of real knowledge on a subject needed to *teach* it in some states, it is not unrealistic to expect lowered salaries. (Please note i did not say teachers did not *know* their subjects in all cases) Elementary and Secondary education is not the noble profession many folks make it out to be. Can some teachers make a difference in some kid's life, of course. it still does not the whole profession noble. You want to raise teacher salaries? Raise the bar to get in. Wayne I might have left this alone if I wasn't writing checks to the IRS and state today after receiving my property tax bill yesterday. :( You should have. Let's look at some other things about teaching... Out of that "not a bad start", you are required to take continuing education courses... of course, you don't get PAID to take them, like in most other professions... they're out of your own pocket. And of course they're only available during the summertime. So much for that "10 months of the year" job. You spend several hours a night grading papers, recording grades, writing lesson plans, creating classroom materials, reading background material, correcting textbooks, reading professional journals, contacting parents, other teachers, administrators... So much for that "8 to 3" job... You buy extra supplies (just little things like classroom materials for 30 kids, extra reading material for the kids, all those little extras that make a classroom more than an empty box with students in it) out of your own pocket, to the tune of several thousand dollars a year (We have the receipts to prove it...) So much for that "not a bad start"... Any attempt to maintain classroom discipline is met with angry calls from parents denying that their little darlings would EVER do anything disruptive (despite the fact the the little "darling" has spent more time suspended than in the classroom), and the fact that due to a few bad apples, a teacher can't even hug a crying student on the playground anymore. Of course, the parents are completely ignorant of the fact that if you let the TV raise the kids for the first 6 years, there's almost nothing that a school can do to rescue them. Not to mention the fact that anytime a school levy comes up, you have to act like a beggar, pleading for the community to pass it so you will have a job the next year. Then you've got the school board that keeps the number of teachers as low as possible, so that you're constantly at a load that is ONE student short of the number that would require them to assign you an aide... and you're working with special ed students that all have different needs, and writing 12 highly detailed individual lesson plans a week (over the course of a year, over 1000 pages worth!). On top of all that, after years and years of teaching in the highest stress field, you're thrown out without even a gold watch when the strain gets to be too much, with completely inadequate counselling and assistance available. I was a substitute teacher for 2 years, and taught music for 7 years. I was a profesional musician for over 30 years, and have 2 recordings to my credit. I bacame a Mr. Mom after my son was born because it was clear there was no future in teaching, and have made more money in retail hell than I ever did in education. My wife taught "special needs" students (ages to 13, highest functioning at about 2-3 grade)for 25 years. You clearly have NO idea what teaching is really like. You probably wouldn't survive a week in an elementary classroom, and a high school basic math or English class would eat you alive in an hour. Think about this - those taxes you pay aren't for the kids you may or may not have in school any more, they're payments on the credit you were extended for the education YOU received, and still use. So go ahead and **** and moan about your taxes. Poor baby. -- "What it all comes to is that the whole structure of space flight as it stands now is creaking, obsolecent, over-elaborate, decaying. The field is static; no, worse than that, it's losing ground. By this time, our ships ought to be sleeker and faster, and able to carry bigger payloads. We ought to have done away with this dichotomy between ships that can land on a planet, and ships that can fly from one planet to another." - Senator Bliss Wagoner James Blish - _They Shall Have Stars_ |
Joe Ellis wrote: You should have. Let's look at some other things about teaching... Out of that "not a bad start", you are required to take continuing education courses... of course, you don't get PAID to take them, like in most other professions... they're out of your own pocket. And of course they're only available during the summertime. So much for that "10 months of the year" job. Not what my sister endures. She manages to get hers in during the school year. You buy extra supplies (just little things like classroom materials for 30 kids, extra reading material for the kids, all those little extras that make a classroom more than an empty box with students in it) out of your own pocket, to the tune of several thousand dollars a year (We have the receipts to prove it...) So much for that "not a bad start"... Seen the extra checks I used to write for supplies big guy? Seen the tax treatment for teachers? Probably not. On top of all that, after years and years of teaching in the highest stress field, you're thrown out without even a gold watch when the strain gets to be too much, with completely inadequate counselling and assistance available. Defined benefit pensions too. The private sector has been losing them for years. You probably wouldn't survive a week in an elementary classroom, and a high school basic math or English class would eat you alive in an hour. I subbed too. Math and Chemistry. Got quite a bit of work in too at the time as I was employed in a clinical laboratory. Even considered doing it for a living but my undergrad Chemistry degree and post graduate work was not good enough for them, they wanted an education degree. At that point the salary was comparable to my private sector income and the benefits were definitely better. My employer at one point *loaned* me to a school system. I taught calculus and general chemistry for two hours each day for one year. I enjoyed it. Even enjoyed doing lesson plans and grading tests. I take work home now in the evening, I'm sure others do too. So what? Think about this - those taxes you pay aren't for the kids you may or may not have in school any more, they're payments on the credit you were extended for the education YOU received, and still use. My taxes are a civic duty to support vital government functions. As far as I know, most citizens generally don't mind paying our fair share for a community benefit. I do object to the education system not having to live like the rest of us and tighten our belts peridocially. My fellow citizens and I just got a levy increase for administrative and athletic facilities. I'm all for high school sports, but seven million for a football stadium is a little out of hand. So go ahead and **** and moan about your taxes. Poor baby. I would not go around calling those you feed you baby. Read the post again, I said the education requirements were not tough. And I said it was not the noble profession folks made it out to be. I never said it was an easy job. I knew someone would sputter bull**** rather than offer an intellectual argument, speaks highly for some abilitiy to teach. Wayne |
"Wayne Knight" wrote in message ups.com... SNIP I knew someone would sputter bull**** rather than offer an intellectual argument, speaks highly for some abilitiy to teach. Wayne So the bottom line was that you couldn't cut it, you couldn't or wouldn't make a career in teaching? Yet, you get to trash it and beauregard as if you actually knew what the hell you were talking about? As a retiree out of the human services I do not have to smile and be quiet anymore when someone talks trash. Two of the things that account for allot of what's wrong with this country is that most MEN do not know **** about the health care system, or the education system. That makes them dangerous in the voting booth, and total whiners for the most part in the nursing homes and hospitals. Teaching is possibly the most noble of the professions. My children were well served by teachers, and most people can name teachers who had considerable influence on their lives. My daughter is now a professor. Most of the retired teachers I know are balanced and happy people, and most take comfort that their pensions are not in the hands of corrupt corporations and slimy politicians. And that is about as much justice as one should expect in this sad-assed country. Dave |
"Wayne Knight" wrote in message
oups.com... //snip// Working 10 months out of the year, 29K would equate to 35K for the rest of us. Not a bad start, when you consider how relatively easy it is to obtain an education degree and the lack of real knowledge on a subject needed to *teach* it in some states, it is not unrealistic to expect lowered salaries. (Please note i did not say teachers did not *know* their subjects in all cases) Wayne, I used to think pretty much the same thing as you. Not any more. My wife teaches four levels of Japanese at one of the local high schools here in St Louis County. She spends more time working outside of class than inside, and subject matter knowledge is the least of the issues. There's a good summer break, but she works evenings and weekends grading papers, preparing lesson plans, talking to parents, preparing special lesson plans for students who are suspended (one of the more asinine punishments), preparing other special plans for students with disabilities, working with other students who need extra help, assisting others who want to do independent study, and on and on. And what's the reward for long hours and extra dedication? Nothing but the psychic reward of occasionally making a difference in somebody's life. In my world, and probably in yours, people get ahead by working harder: bigger bonuses, promotions, more perqs, etc. But not teachers. A talented teacher who works harder gets tougher students. Elementary and Secondary education is not the noble profession many folks make it out to be. Can some teachers make a difference in some kid's life, of course. it still does not the whole profession noble. Is ANY profession noble? My wife doesn't make much money. But when her former students who are now FBI agents, lawyers, and teachers come back years later to see her and tell her what a difference she made, it's a pretty valuable reward. And when one of her best students - an honor roll student and athlete - elected to join the Marines to get money for college and law school, and then went to Afghanistan on October 2001, I think her concern about him was second only to that of his parents. I suspect that few people other than teachers and police officers get such a picture of the social issues that this country faces. There are people in this community who don't eat every day because they can't afford it. There are kids in my wife's classes whose mothers work full time for the minimum wage and can't make ends meet for their families. There are kids who go to bed at night having had nothing to eat all day except the free lunch at school, and are about the be evicted from their homes. That is absolutely true. And we penalize the kids for that! You want to raise teacher salaries? Raise the bar to get in. Yeah. Get a bunch of technicians who're good test takers but haven't the foggiest notion about the real world. Doesn't do any good to raise the bar if not enough people want to get in. Imagine a kid from the inner city of St Louis who is bused to an affluent school in St Louis county. His mother can hardly afford to buy him a pencil and paper, but now he is immersed in a school with kids who drive BMWs. How does he feel? What kind of character does it take to deal with that, and how do teachers deal with the issues? Probably not by learning something from a textbook and passing a test about it. Wayne I might have left this alone if I wasn't writing checks to the IRS and state today after receiving my property tax bill yesterday. :( I know. I paid mine today too. I figure a good bit of it went to pay for propaganda development to convince people that the Administration wants to improve the country. |
"David Snedeker" wrote in message ... "Wayne Knight" wrote in message ups.com... SNIP I knew someone would sputter bull**** rather than offer an intellectual argument, speaks highly for some abilitiy to teach. Wayne So the bottom line was that you couldn't cut it, you couldn't or wouldn't make a career in teaching? Yet, you get to trash it and beauregard as if you actually knew what the hell you were talking about? As a retiree out of the human services I do not have to smile and be quiet anymore when someone talks trash. Two of the things that account for allot of what's wrong with this country is that most MEN do not know **** about the health care system, or the education system. That makes them dangerous in the voting booth, and total whiners for the most part in the nursing homes and hospitals. Teaching is possibly the most noble of the professions. My children were well served by teachers, and most people can name teachers who had considerable influence on their lives. My daughter is now a professor. Most of the retired teachers I know are balanced and happy people, and most take comfort that their pensions are not in the hands of corrupt corporations and slimy politicians. And that is about as much justice as one should expect in this sad-assed country. Yet another load of unmitigated (as well as unsubstantiated) horse**** from our resident psychopath in the great northwest. Wolfgang who knows that have offspring, knowing a teacher or two, and being retired from the public tit does not an authority make. |
On 15 Apr 2005 06:17:02 -0700, "Wayne Knight"
wrote: (snipped) You want to raise teacher salaries? Raise the bar to get in. Good idea. When my daughter and I were doing a year of home schooling for my grandson, I thought it might be easier all around if I got a teaching certificate. So I took the test for practice. With no study and half an hour left at the end of the test, I'd easily made a better than passing grade. It could have been still better, but I was off on some of the 'If little Susie slams little Tommy over the head with the toy locomotive in kindergarten, what do you do about it?' questions. So the degree has to count, as the state test here isn't worth doggie doo. This did not fill me with confidence that the next year the grandson would be sent out among educated folks with much knowledge to impart to him. Luckily he's in a good school now, as are the granddaughters, but if you take the local pot luck of schools and teachers, you _will_ wind up with some people teaching who have not proven to have knowledge of their subjects and are teaching only out of a lesson book. Cyli r.bc: vixen. Minnow goddess. Speaker to squirrels. Often taunted by trout. Almost entirely harmless. http://www.visi.com/~cyli email: lid (strip the .invalid to email) |
"David Snedeker" wrote in message ... So the bottom line was that you couldn't cut it, you couldn't or wouldn't make a career in teaching? Yet, you get to trash it and beauregard as if you actually knew what the hell you were talking about? I said I considered it, they wanted an education degree in that particular school system. At the time I was doing post grad work in chemistry, and yes I made a choice not to seek the edu degree. Two of the things that account for allot of what's wrong with this country is that most MEN do not know **** about the health care system, I have forgotten more about the health care system than you ever learned. Teaching is possibly the most noble of the professions. My children were well served by teachers, and most people can name teachers who had considerable influence on their lives. Oh bull****, if you're bleeding out from a chest wound, I'm sure you would consider the trauma surgeon to be the most noble profession at the time, or if your house was on fire....you get the idea. There are good teachers that *inspire* kids but I'm sure your children were exposed to bad and medicore teachers too, most of which they can't remember. No different than everyday life and other people you come in contact with on a daily basis. of the retired teachers I know are balanced and happy people, and most take comfort that their pensions are not in the hands of corrupt corporations and slimy politicians. And that is about as much justice as one should expect in this sad-assed country. Oh come on, the country has issues, always has had issues We'll find a way to survive Georgie and the sun will continue to rise in the east and set in the west. As to your friends pensions, get a grip son, they were government employees, and who do the governement employees actually work for? , hint, it ain't the taxpayer. |
Wayne Harrison wrote:
"Jeff Miller" wrote i'm ashamed to say that a 1st year teacher with a masters degree and all proper teaching credentials in my city's schools has a starting pay of a little over 29k...and it takes 20 years before he/she can expect to earn over 40k. it's shameful and ridiculous. what, you mean to tell me that ron artest isn't worth, like, 40k a ****ing week? yfitp wayno (i mean, just think of the role model aspect!) not to mention mcCant$... ;) jeff |
"Bob Patton" wrote in message
... In my world, and probably in yours, people get ahead by working harder: bigger bonuses, promotions, more perqs, etc. But not teachers. A talented teacher who works harder gets tougher students. Haven't teachers sort of done that to themselves tho? Is ANY profession noble? IMO not really. My wife doesn't make much money. I understand fully what you are trying to say Bob and I;m sure your wife is most excellent at what she does. Is it tough to make a living on what some professions, including teaching pay. It sure the hell is and I would not want to be doing that right now but that's not the relevant point. I suspect that few people other than teachers and police officers get such a picture of the social issues that this country faces. There are people in this community who don't eat every day because they can't afford it. There are kids in my wife's classes whose mothers work full time for the minimum wage and can't make ends meet for their families. There are kids who go to bed at night having had nothing to eat all day except the free lunch at school, and are about the be evicted from their homes. That is absolutely true. And we penalize the kids for that! Do you think teachers and police officers really have the picture? I would submit that they don't. I was one of *those people* . My mother still has not recovered. We don;t penalize the kids, some ****ing know it all amateur psychiatrist nobilese teacher brands the kid a special needs or targets him as a trouble maker. I'm glad your wife can influence so many lifes and taht Snedeker's girls had nothing but great kids, my teachers sucked (figureatively speaking of course) and were more concerned with their contract negotiations that if I could find the solution to a quadratic equation, primarily because most of them had no idea what one was. And do not get me started on how we were treated by the local police. Yeah. Get a bunch of technicians who're good test takers but haven't the foggiest notion about the real world. Doesn't do any good to raise the bar if not enough people want to get in. If a math professor in college does not know math, then it will come out and they will be cut. Do the same in elememtary school, then maybe johnny could read. Imagine a kid from the inner city of St Louis who is bused to an affluent school in St Louis county. Again I don;t have to imagine what that is like. I know. I paid mine today too. I figure a good bit of it went to pay for propaganda development to convince people that the Administration wants to improve the country. Amen |
Cyli wrote:
On 15 Apr 2005 06:17:02 -0700, "Wayne Knight" wrote: (snipped) You want to raise teacher salaries? Raise the bar to get in. but if you take the local pot luck of schools and teachers, you _will_ wind up with some people teaching who have not proven to have knowledge of their subjects and are teaching only out of a lesson book. ....well lessee here...new teachers with a bs degree start at 26k...do you really question what the smarter and more capable people usually choose to do? hint...they don't remain in teaching in the public schools. raise the salaries...you'll get better quality generally. jeff |
"Wayne Knight" wrote in message
... "Bob Patton" wrote in message ... //snip// not get me started on how we were treated by the local police. Not defending the police - just trying to make a point about some social inequalities. There's a cop in SWMBO's school who is a very special person. I know that's not always true. There are some good teachers; there are a lot who don't care very much. Most work for public school administrations run by politicians and entrenched bureaucracies who have to worry more about being criticized for teaching something controversial than about whether their kids can do quadratic equations. Fortunately, in my wife's case she doesn't need the money - if she did she wouldn't teach. I work for a big bank and thought I knew something about bureaucracy. But the education bureaucracy is something else again. I've noticed in my work that some of the people who at the end of the day are best at what they do aren't really motivated by money. There's some kind of intangible reward that they get from doing a good job and being respected for that. People who advance to high levels in search of more money have different skills. And you can read about some of them in the newspapers - and see some of them on perp walks - almost every day. What do you suppose would motivate college students to consider becoming teachers instead of, say, bankers? Bob |
"Bob Patton" wrote in message
... What do you suppose would motivate college students to consider becoming teachers instead of, say, bankers? Not everyone can be a banker, nor can everyone be a teacher. Sometimes its the education that trips them up, sometimes its a desire, what makes folks want to be divorce lawyers or groundskeepers. I am not attacking teaching per se, just this noble profession bs and noting that the pay, while it could be higher is not as bad as it is made out to be. My daughter recently graduated from Michigan State and was accepted into a top flight medical school. Over wine and along the Manistee River as we were talking, I noted some hesitation in her voice when talking about it, after a couple of hours she it came out that she had applied because of the earnings level and a perceived pressure from me. She's not going to med school now, but considering some more to her liking. BTW, after he relevation, she considered teaching but guess what *they* wanted g. |
Cyli wrote:
"Wayne Knight" wrote: You want to raise teacher salaries? Raise the bar to get in. Good idea. When my daughter and I were doing a year of home schooling for my grandson, I thought it might be easier all around if I got a teaching certificate. So I took the test for practice. With no study and half an hour left at the end of the test, I'd easily made a better than passing grade. Let's say a district or state decides to "raise the bar" by 1) requiring a Masters of all new teachers and 2) instituting a teaching certificate test say 5 to 10 times more rigorous than the current one (to ensure "real knowledge on a subject").... but it keeps entry salaries the same. What are the chances that even one more highly qualified candidate will enter the applicant pool? Raising the bar, by itself, does nothing, I think. Raise salaries, though, and you can raise the bar to good effect. JR |
On Sat, 16 Apr 2005 06:58:20 -0400, Jeff Miller
wrote: Cyli wrote: On 15 Apr 2005 06:17:02 -0700, "Wayne Knight" wrote: (snipped) You want to raise teacher salaries? Raise the bar to get in. but if you take the local pot luck of schools and teachers, you _will_ wind up with some people teaching who have not proven to have knowledge of their subjects and are teaching only out of a lesson book. ...well lessee here...new teachers with a bs degree start at 26k...do you really question what the smarter and more capable people usually choose to do? hint...they don't remain in teaching in the public schools. raise the salaries...you'll get better quality generally. jeff That and the bureaucracy that gives them the job security that some go to it for. You'd get some more of dingbats who'd have to go away sometime, but you might have less of the "This is the lesson plan I was given. This is all you will learn here." type who don't _know_ anything more than the lesson plan calls for. Make sure that the arithmetic teacher knows arithmetic and in higher grades that the chemistry teacher knows something more about chemistry than what he / she learned in the one hour a day for one year they took it in college. Many of the teachers I had were, uh, not too bright, which I was, fortunately, too young and ignorant myself to realize at the time, though I sometimes wondered what was wrong. When my kids were in school they were getting more teachers who cared about the kids and their mental well-being, but there were still some of the kind from my years around. And the new wave didn't seem to be much more knowledgeable than the old teachers. My grandchildren got teachers who were even more concerned, but for educational qualities, my older daughter had to pick which schools they went to very carefully. My youngest trusted in the system, which failed, so we did the home schooling for a year and after that my older daughter inherited the grandson, who was showing, even in a good school system, that he was way ahead in education. Now we did home schooling about the same way I fish. Whenever we all felt like it and whatever looked interesting, though we did try to stick to math lessons. And the kid still came out way ahead in knowledge. Hmmmm. This means a lot less of government oversight needed for teachers to be free to be hired and fired and to teach away from the blasted pre-ordained plans. Like I can see an end to that.... Cyli r.bc: vixen. Minnow goddess. Speaker to squirrels. Often taunted by trout. Almost entirely harmless. http://www.visi.com/~cyli email: lid (strip the .invalid to email) |
"JR" wrote Raising the bar, by itself, does nothing, I think. Raise salaries, though, and you can raise the bar to good effect. i reckon you are right about that. for $40k a month, i will teach oral hygiene in bedford-stuyvestant. yfitons wayno (well, for a year or two, anyway) |
Cyli wrote:
Now we did home schooling about the same way I fish. Whenever we all felt like it and whatever looked interesting, though we did try to stick to math lessons. And the kid still came out way ahead in knowledge. Hmmmm. and i have a nephew-in-law who was home schooled to age 16; he's barely able to read... so, how do we recognize, attract, and reward quality teachers? |
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"Jeff Miller" wrote in message
news:OLi8e.3183$Zr.991@lakeread08... //snip//... so, how do we recognize, attract, and reward quality teachers? Offer salaries and working conditions that make young people want to be there. Then raise the bar on certifications and require continuing education so that people who work there have peers that want to be there (as opposed to having no alternative) because they're intellectually and professionally stimulated. Rehabilitate or eliminate burnout cases. Don't "punish" kids by suspending them and sending them home to empty houses. Find things that need to be done at the school and make them do that. For example, make them clean the bathrooms - with toothbrushes if the offense is bad enough. Bob |
Kevin Vang wrote:
It's funny what you here about the teachers from their students sometimes. I once happened to be with a group of teenage boys who were talking about their math teacher like she was the wicked witch of the west, so I asked who she was. I had to laugh when they told me, because she was a former student of mine. She was an outragously beautiful, blue-eyed blonde Scandinavian beauty. By now she has probably reached the ripe old age of 35, so I can't imagine she's too much worse for the wear. Maybe she's Glenda, the good witch. Now click your heels together and say ... -- Cut "to the chase" for my email address. |
"Bob Patton" wrote in message ... Don't "punish" kids by suspending them and sending them home to empty houses. Find things that need to be done at the school and make them do that. For example, make them clean the bathrooms - with toothbrushes if the offense is bad enough. http://tinyurl.com/85td9 |
"Wolfgang" wrote in message ... Yet another load of unmitigated (as well as unsubstantiated) horse**** from our resident psychopath in the great northwest. Wolfgang who knows that have offspring, knowing a teacher or two, and being retired from the public tit does not an authority make. Well you don't know much. 1. Most of my working life I owned and or managed private firms, so your public tit comment is gratuitous. 2. As a part of my work Ive visited, observed, evaluated, consulted, trained, advised etc in more schools, educational programs and classrooms and shops than you or Knight will ever see or drive by, including urban systems where you would most likely wet yourself within a half hour. 3. Ive spent a bit of time in hospitals, worked in one for a short time in college, and hung out for about 6 months at a nursing home while my father died. Turns out I seem to have a pretty high pain threshold. Doesn't make me an expert, but I observed that men were bigger whiners and complainers when sick than women. Why don't you ask some of the nurses, or maybe a few mothers. Most men get queasy if they see their own blood, or even have to clean up a little ****. And if you don't know that I know you have not been around little kids much, and apparently don't like to get out of the lab much. 4. Ive also worked with more than a few Older worker employment programs and on a few class actions. In my personal experience, two occupational groups stand out as being noticeably more well adjusted and "happy" in retirement: Teachers, and surprising to me, highway patrol men. For someone who works in the 5% difference drug realm, you sure play fast and loose with the word "unsubstantiated." Dave |
"Wayne Knight" wrote in message ... Well I don't have a clue what your point is. I stand by my statement that from what I have seen in life and in my work, teachers are an uncommonly dedicated lot, and seem to me to be generally happy in retirement and uncommonly satisfied with how they have spent their lives. Wayne, I hope you are not holding up hospitals as bastions of efficiency and cost effectiveness. And your comment about surgeons? . . . Noble would not be my choice of adjectives. To me they are more like fighter pilots, same kind of egos, reflexes etc. Definitely needed, interesting and talented . . .. but noble? Sorry. Dave Dave |
"David Snedeker" wrote in message ... Well I don't have a clue what your point is. I stand by my statement that from what I have seen in life and in my work, teachers are an uncommonly dedicated lot, and seem to me to be generally happy in retirement and uncommonly satisfied with how they have spent their lives. Teachers are not the only uncommonly dedicated lot David. You can put them on a pedestal if you like, I won't. . Wayne, I hope you are not holding up hospitals as bastions of efficiency and cost effectiveness. No but I try everyday to make them that way. Like the education *system*, they're a tough nut to bring to reality and make them work right. |
"David Snedeker" wrote in message ... "Wolfgang" wrote in message ... Yet another load of unmitigated (as well as unsubstantiated) horse**** from our resident psychopath in the great northwest. Wolfgang who knows that have offspring, knowing a teacher or two, and being retired from the public tit does not an authority make. Well you don't know much. Unlike you, I never claimed to. 1. Most of my working life I owned and or managed private firms, so your public tit comment is gratuitous. Most? To how many decimal places? 2. As a part of my work Ive visited, observed, evaluated, consulted, trained, advised etc in more schools, educational programs and classrooms and shops than you or Knight will ever see or drive by, And you calculated that......how? including urban systems where you would most likely wet yourself within a half hour. Urban systems? Yeah, I don't see much of that 3. Ive spent a bit of time in hospitals, worked in one for a short time in college, Well......gosh......I won't try to match that. and hung out for about 6 months at a nursing home while my father died. Turns out I seem to have a pretty high pain threshold. What.....they put thumbscrews on you? Doesn't make me an expert, We agree on that much. but I observed that men were bigger whiners and complainers when sick than women. And you know how impressive your observations are......right? Why don't you ask some of the nurses, or maybe a few mothers. Mainly because I have no reason to suspect that any I am familiar with would have any idea of or interest in your observations. There are other reasons, but I suspect that one will suffice. Most men get queasy if they see their own blood, or even have to clean up a little ****. You've traveled more widely than I suspected. I wasn't aware that you were intimately familiar with most men. And if you don't know that I know you have not been around little kids much, and apparently don't like to get out of the lab much. Well, you don't know much. 4. Ive also worked with more than a few Older worker employment programs and on a few class actions. Well......gosh. In my personal experience, two occupational groups stand out as being noticeably more well adjusted and "happy" in retirement: Teachers, and surprising to me, highway patrol men. And one could hardly ask for better evidence than your personal experience, huh? For someone who works in the 5% difference drug realm, you sure play fast and loose with the word "unsubstantiated." O.k., why don't you see if you can point out what you have substantiated......and how? For that matter, why don't you see if you can elucidate for us just what any of the self-congratulatory twaddle above has to do with the claim that teaching is "possibly the most noble of the professions" or anything that Wayne said in response to Mr. Ellis? Good luck! :) Wolfgang |
um...well...since i'll be in a symbiotic if not parasitic position with
you in September, we'll simply have to disagree on this one right now and i'll reserve my own special brand of diatribe for October when i'm safely home in carolina land. G but, about the only thing i'm able to do is raise a glass in the bar i'm in... i think the alcohol tax benefits the schools and i'm doing my part. g jeff (who thinks 29k for a good teacher is simply unconscionable; and, i'll bet i sent just as big a check to uncle as you did) Wayne Knight wrote: You want to raise teacher salaries? Raise the bar to get in. Wayne I might have left this alone if I wasn't writing checks to the IRS and state today after receiving my property tax bill yesterday. :( |
"Wolfgang" wrote in message ... Wolfgang, all I really needed to cite was your demonstrated whininess, and the overwhelming weight of that by gender would alone tip the balance to the male population. You have all the displaced cynicism of one of those who lives far too close to the 5% significant difference rule. Kissy Kissy Dave Who confesses he gets far too much fun from poking dis cheesehead monkey. |
"Jeff" wrote in message ink.net... um...well...since i'll be in a symbiotic if not parasitic position with you in September, we'll simply have to disagree on this one right now and i'll reserve my own special brand of diatribe for October when i'm safely home in carolina land. G No you'll get the chance the first weekend of the show. We're meeting a friend for beer and brats, Friday night or breakfast Sat morning. He takes almost every summer off and fishes/guides the UP. And fwiw, he's a middle school math teacher :). That's how he gets the summer off. Except when he does insurance adjusting for the summer out in the rockies. but, about the only thing i'm able to do is raise a glass in the bar i'm in... i think the alcohol tax benefits the schools and i'm doing my part. g And michigan alcohol taxes are higher than most. jeff (who thinks 29k for a good teacher is simply unconscionable; and, I think 29K for most anything good is unconsiconable. . i'll bet i sent just as big a check to uncle as you did) The size of your check of no concern to me. However I applaud the proper use of tax planning. Why some folks plan on getting a refund is beyond me. |
"David Snedeker" wrote in message ... "Wolfgang" wrote in message ... Wolfgang, all I really needed to cite was your demonstrated whininess, and the overwhelming weight of that by gender would alone tip the balance to the male population. You have all the displaced cynicism of one of those who lives far too close to the 5% significant difference rule. Kissy Kissy All you had to do was cite my demonstrated whininess. Well......dang......that sure does sound like it means something. O.k., with your demonstrated expertise in teaching, it should be very simple for you to explain, even to one with my limited capacity to comprehend, exactly what that means. Dave Who confesses he gets far too much fun from poking dis cheesehead monkey. Keep on enjoying! :) Wolfgang |
Wayne Knight wrote:
"Jeff" wrote in message ink.net... um...well...since i'll be in a symbiotic if not parasitic position with you in September, we'll simply have to disagree on this one right now and i'll reserve my own special brand of diatribe for October when i'm safely home in carolina land. G No you'll get the chance the first weekend of the show. We're meeting a friend for beer and brats, Friday night or breakfast Sat morning. He takes almost every summer off and fishes/guides the UP. And fwiw, he's a middle school math teacher :). That's how he gets the summer off. Except when he does insurance adjusting for the summer out in the rockies. well allrighty then... however, i suspect we'll need a third on my side of the argument though, just in case we are forced to convince you of the rightness of our position. g will he be fishing with us? The size of your check of no concern to me. However I applaud the proper use of tax planning. Why some folks plan on getting a refund is beyond me. didn't think it was...but, it didn't affect my opinion about teachers or salaries in the same manner, hence my silly comment. ...and, btw, isn't it the truth that most salaried folks - esp. teachers - get a refund because they know they haven't the ability or discipline to save, don't make enough to save and pay expenses of living, and won't have the funds to pay the tax due on april 15, so they select all the withholding possible...? my planning as a quarterly estimated tax payer is simply to send what i can spare when i can spare it and hope/pray it all works out by april 15. it rarely does... now, enough of this unpleasantness. soon come the u.p. and there's a mystery to solve. i (obviously and admittedly) need more clues. jeff |
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