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I'm ashamed of my country
US military investigates Iraq massacre claims:
http://tinyurl.com/leqng I have little doubt that this is true. Out marines killed 15 unarmed Iraqis in their homes, including seven women and three children. For the third time in my life, I'm ashamed of (or for) my country. The first time was the Mi Lai Massacre. The second, recently, was the Abu Ghraib torture. Now this horror. This has to stop. -- Cut "to the chase" for my email address. |
I'm ashamed of my country
I came across that video of an Apache helicopter shooting of three
people in a field (google under 'apache killing video'), and for the past two weeks I have felt a bit nauseus. It was a very contentious issue, and made the online rounds several years ago, but AFAIK it was never definitively proven that these guys were doing anything wrong. Some people insisted such strange assertations as "if they were innocent, why were they in a field at night?" or "if they were innocent, why was that one person running?" Being in a field at night, or running don't seem to me to be offenses punishable by death, and people's willingness to accept that 'they were killed, therefore they must be guilty of something' makes me deeply ashamed. There have been assertations that they were just farmers, and other assertations that they had been tracked directly from a car bombing site, and that footsoldiers later searched the wreckage and found weapons. However, all I have found is definitve assertations that the military is being completely silent on this. That makes me fear the worst. There is another site that shows footage of a vehicle randomly shooting at cars on the road to Bagdhad airport, while some jazzy Elvis tune plays in the background. Several of the cars react in ways that make it obvious that the drivers were hit, possibly killed. Certainly, in almost all of these cases, the drivers were guilty of nothing more than being behind this vehicle and not noticing that they were gaining on it; I can't believe they all were carrying car bombs. I would dearly like to think that our military is above wanton killing, and has better discipline than this, but the reality is that an army is a very blunt instrument, and that 'acceptable collateral damage' has migrated from accidental killing of people caught in crossfire of legitimate firefights, to deliberate killing of random indiviuals. My Lei would not even be prosecuted today, I fear. All of this shames and sickens me; the random killing, the endorsement of it by many Americans (and the associated attacks on people who condemn it), and the absolute impossibility of most of it ever coming to justice. --riverman |
I'm ashamed of my country
In article .com,
riverman wrote: My Lei would not even be prosecuted today, I fear. All of this shames and sickens me; the random killing, the endorsement of it by many Americans (and the associated attacks on people who condemn it), and the absolute impossibility of most of it ever coming to justice. What's more, not only is all this stuff morally repugnant: to be brutally pragmatic about it, it's also enormously damaging to the future safety of America and Americans. This doesn't seem to have occurred to those who a) don't want to know it's happening (which is why I'm so worried about the lack of information available to the general mass of people in the States) or b) explain it away in the way you describe See also http://tinyurl.com/jfqrh (and note that the Telegraph is a right-wing paper, and the SAS is far from being a hotbed of pansy liberalism) L |
I'm ashamed of my country
And it is regularly ashamed of you...
Remember, there's always Canada...and speaking of which, where'd the fake whiny New Yorker-turned-Canadian loony go? |
I'm ashamed of my country
"riverman" wrote in
oups.com: I came across that video of an Apache helicopter shooting of three people in a field (google under 'apache killing video'), and for the past two weeks I have felt a bit nauseus. It was a very contentious issue, and made the online rounds several years ago, but AFAIK it was never definitively proven that these guys were doing anything wrong. Some people insisted such strange assertations as "if they were innocent, why were they in a field at night?" or "if they were innocent, why was that one person running?" Being in a field at night, or running don't seem to me to be offenses punishable by death, and people's willingness to accept that 'they were killed, therefore they must be guilty of something' makes me deeply ashamed I recall that video. It troubled me too for days. The 50mm cannon rounds left absolutely nothing behind but the green heat signature of remains. Those guys were acting very suspicious, as you mention, and I had read they were 1/4 of mile from a US Army checkpoint. I was hoping you had found an explanation, but I guess we'll never know. Putting aside the controversey, it is interesting to see how the decision is made to kill them, and how the gunner eventually gets the go code. It was not a fait accompli, nor could you detect any wink-winkness in the dialogue. For me, this video does not rank beside the British troops who made the random shoot-up video to Elvis music that you mention. An interesting part of the video is the when the gunner opens fire, but is on 'manual'. The gunship is a few miles away I think, and he misses, causing one of the targets to "dance". How could the targets not know they were being shot at? I suppose that with no gunfire audible or rotar sound they must have written off the thuds of bullets as something else. The gunner says, "****! Going to auto!", or something like that. And of course doesn't miss again. I remember thinking it was just like a video game with a cheat bot enabled. |
I'm ashamed of my country
rw wrote in news:a05Uf.4007$HW2.908
@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net: US military investigates Iraq massacre claims: http://tinyurl.com/leqng I have little doubt that this is true. Out marines killed 15 unarmed Iraqis in their homes, including seven women and three children. For the third time in my life, I'm ashamed of (or for) my country. The first time was the Mi Lai Massacre. The second, recently, was the Abu Ghraib torture. Now this horror. This has to stop. Hey, we're making progress in the region. The liberated Afghanis are right at this very moment trying to figure out if they can get around the death penalty for a Christian convert by calling him insane. -- Scott Reverse name to reply |
I'm ashamed of my country
On 22 Mar 2006 00:03:22 -0800, "riverman" wrote:
I came across that video of an Apache helicopter shooting of three people in a field (google under 'apache killing video'), and for the past two weeks I have felt a bit nauseus. It was a very contentious issue, and made the online rounds several years ago, but AFAIK it was never definitively proven that these guys were doing anything wrong. Some people insisted such strange assertations as "if they were innocent, why were they in a field at night?" or "if they were innocent, why was that one person running?" Being in a field at night, or running don't seem to me to be offenses punishable by death, and people's willingness to accept that 'they were killed, therefore they must be guilty of something' makes me deeply ashamed. There have been assertations that they were just farmers, and other assertations that they had been tracked directly from a car bombing site, and that footsoldiers later searched the wreckage and found weapons. However, all I have found is definitve assertations that the military is being completely silent on this. That makes me fear the worst. There is another site that shows footage of a vehicle randomly shooting at cars on the road to Bagdhad airport, while some jazzy Elvis tune plays in the background. Several of the cars react in ways that make it obvious that the drivers were hit, possibly killed. Certainly, in almost all of these cases, the drivers were guilty of nothing more than being behind this vehicle and not noticing that they were gaining on it; I can't believe they all were carrying car bombs. I would dearly like to think that our military is above wanton killing, Think it all you want, but it isn't, and regardless of what you mean by "our"...any time you give a couple of hundred thousand kids under the age of 25 assault rifles and larger weapons, things are occasionally going to go wrong. and has better discipline than this, but the reality is that an army is a very blunt instrument, An army has but one ultimate purpose: to kill people and tear up their ****. Sometimes, thankfully, it need not do it, but it and its leaders better be ready to do it at all times. And sometimes, if you'll pardon the pun, somebody jumps the gun. And of course, you've got a few nutcases that slip in and get their hands on a gun... and that 'acceptable collateral damage' has migrated from accidental killing of people caught in crossfire of legitimate firefights, to deliberate killing of random indiviuals. "Migrated?" You think this, should it turn out to be totally unjustified, illegal killing, or guys like Calley and co. are something new and "American?" My Lei would not even be prosecuted today, I fear. VERY unlikely - possible, but VERY unlikely... All of this shames and sickens me; the random killing, the endorsement of it by many Americans (and the associated attacks on people who condemn it), and the absolute impossibility of most of it ever coming to justice. And just who are these "many Americans" who have endorsed "random killing" and attacked those who condemn it? And of what incidents are you speaking? If one were going to base an opinion solely upon what I've read in "news" reports, I'd agree that something at least suspicious happened and that someone is trying cover something up, but the "facts" from all sides seem unlikely: supposedly, the Marines took heavy fire but they only found 2 AKs, there were only two eyewitnesses but both are young children, etc. Some of the "after-the-fact" stories from the locals are questionable, too: 4 guys supposedly herded into a closet too small to fit them and shot, reporters giving credence to blood spatter pattern analysis opinions from untrained locals, etc. I'd offer that folks who have nothing more to go on might want to reserve judgment at this point - as always, YMMV. TC, R |
I'm ashamed of my country
"GaryM" wrote in message 2.112... "riverman" wrote in oups.com: I came across that video of an Apache helicopter shooting of three people in a field (google under 'apache killing video'), and for the past two weeks I have felt a bit nauseus. It was a very contentious issue, and made the online rounds several years ago, but AFAIK it was never definitively proven that these guys were doing anything wrong. Some people insisted such strange assertations as "if they were innocent, why were they in a field at night?" or "if they were innocent, why was that one person running?" Being in a field at night, or running don't seem to me to be offenses punishable by death, and people's willingness to accept that 'they were killed, therefore they must be guilty of something' makes me deeply ashamed I recall that video. It troubled me too for days. The 50mm cannon rounds left absolutely nothing behind but the green heat signature of remains. Those guys were acting very suspicious, as you mention, and I had read they were 1/4 of mile from a US Army checkpoint. I was hoping you had found an explanation, but I guess we'll never know. I don't know what 'suspicious' means, and I most definately did not say they were acting so. They were acting in a manner that was not clear what they were doing, but I've seen enough things in other cultures and places to not label them 'suspicious' without reason to be suspect. Its like an inkblot: different people see different things. The person running across the field seemed a bit out of place, but then again I have worked with people who were very agressive when they worked. If that person was putting something in a field that the tractor needed when it arrived, then I could easily imagine them being a 'go getter' who sprinted out to the field and back; not something deserving of being killed over. Likewise, as they were unwrapping the thing the moment they were being killed, they had their head down beside the engine of a running tractor. I think it is completely likely that they never heard or saw the tractor driver being shot, and were just hustling, doing their job. Again, this is only supposition, but similarly so is the assumption that they were doing something 'suspicious'. The difference is, my supposition didn't lead to them being killed by a hovering Apache. Putting aside the controversey, it is interesting to see how the decision is made to kill them, and how the gunner eventually gets the go code. It was not a fait accompli, nor could you detect any wink-winkness in the dialogue. No, I agree. But I think the part of the coversation where the controller says "are you sure its a weapon" and the pilots reply: "Absolutely Positive" sealed their fate, but I was anything but 'absolutely positive' and fail to understand how the pilot could be so sure. I deeply crave to know that the pilot was privvy to some info that I don't have. Or at least that ground troops later verified that he was correct. For me, this video does not rank beside the British troops who made the random shoot-up video to Elvis music that you mention. What do you mean: its worse, or its not as bad? An interesting part of the video is the when the gunner opens fire, but is on 'manual'. The gunship is a few miles away I think, and he misses, causing one of the targets to "dance". How could the targets not know they were being shot at? Trust me on this: I have been in the vicinity of live machinegun fire. When you hear it, you skip; its involuntary. In Congo, during the coup, whenever the gunfire went off, even inside the house and knowing full well that I was not being targeted, I reacted pretty much exactly like that, then giggled it off. Their reaction was precisely what I'd expect for someone who thought they were NOT being shot at. If they thought they were the target and were familiar with gunfire, they would have instantly scattered. Some poster pointed out that the tractor driver gave the runner a little peck on the cheek. I think the skipper was a woman. In fact, the scenario I can't get out of my head, that fits the image, is this: A farmer is plowing a field, his field hand is hanging out by the truck, and the farmer's wife or daughter is bringing something out to the tractor. She meets up with the field hand, they chat a bit, and she says 'just a sec, I need to drop this by the field for Abdul." She's one of those 'go get it' workers, so she sprints to the field, drops the package, and sprints back to casually resume her converstation. Meanwhile, the fieldhand strolls over and drops off what looks like a bottle of water. They return to the truck and chat a bit more (having no idea that an Apache pilot is watching). They know the chopper is there, glance up at it, and say something like "geez, its strange having those Americans all over the place, but at least they're here to make some changes. I hope it doesn't take long." Then, the tractor arrives, she sprints over to see Abdul, and the sound of the chopper firing makes her skip a step in suprise. She shakes it off, not ever imagining she was the target. The farmer pecks her on the cheek, hops off the tractor, and starts walking over to his fieldhand to take a break while she preps whatever she brought. Suddenly, out of the blue, he is blown to bits, which shocks the everloving **** out of the field hand who dives under the truck. The woman doesn't hear a thing, with her head down by the running tractor engine, and with her get-go attitude, she's unwrapping whatever thing she brought. Then she gets blown to ****, too. Meanwhile, the fieldhand cannot believe or understand what is happening. He is panicking, trying to hide behind the truck and falls down, where he is spotted. A second later, the truck explodes in front of him, stunning, injuring and shellshocking him. Severely wounded, he rolls out into the field, where he is also blown to death. I suppose that with no gunfire audible or rotar sound they must have written off the thuds of bullets as something else. The gunner says, "****! Going to auto!", or something like that. And of course doesn't miss again. I remember thinking it was just like a video game with a cheat bot enabled. I think that's precisely the impression that modern weaponry is designed to make. --riverman If anyone knows more about this video.....FACTS, not suppositions, I need to hear them. |
I'm ashamed of my country
I spent 19 months in Iraq, with a lot of good soldiers. I am not saying
that something like this could not happen, but it remains allegations at this point (which were raised by a news journal). I hope it would turn out to not be as it seems, but then again I naive about such things. |
I'm ashamed of my country
Benjamin Turek wrote:
I spent 19 months in Iraq, with a lot of good soldiers. I am not saying that something like this could not happen, but it remains allegations at this point (which were raised by a news journal). I hope it would turn out to not be as it seems, but then again I naive about such things. If you're a soldier in Iraq and you're constantly in danger of being shot by a sniper or blown apart by an IED, I can almost forgive you for going into a blind killing rampage when your buddy gets killed. Almost, but not quite. What I can't forgive are the callous, deceitful politicians who put you in that position, and who continue to assert that things are going "very, very well" in spite of simple, obvious reality, and who evade responsibility for any mistakes. The same holds true for the disgraceful Abu Graib torture scandal. Rumsfeld asserts that the Geneva Convention doesn't apply and personally approves interrogation methods that amount to torture. So who gets punished when the **** hits the fan? The low-ranking mouth breathers who were given the dirty work. -- Cut "to the chase" for my email address. |
I'm ashamed of my country
On 22 Mar 2006 09:17:27 -0800, "lazarus cooke"
wrote: wrote: See also http://tinyurl.com/jfqrh (and note that the Telegraph is a right-wing paper, and the SAS is far from being a hotbed of pansy liberalism) Two things come to mind: he apparently had no problem being involved in or with the British military's actions in Northern Ireland There is no comparison. Very few civilians were killed by the British Army in Northern Ireland in comparison with Iraq, Oooooh...so it's not the fact that civilians are killed (or murdered), it's the NUMBER that are killed (or murdered)...do any and all circumstances count, or is it just absolutely unwarranted, illegal acts that count? What I mean is that if the "breakpoint" number was one more civilian death and a civilian were accidentally caught in a crossfire and killed (and let's assume the impossible and pretend it was a Brit at the trigger), would that move it over into "illegal" right at that exact instant or would someone from the Regiment need to serve notice on all parties, or ??? although the British army have been in Northern Ireland for over thirty years. And the worst example, Bloody Sunday, immediately caused a horrified reaction throughout England, and a series of judicial enquiries which are still continuing over thirty years later. It's a good example, though, of how this sort of thing can, in spite of what you say, damage a country. At the time of Bloody Sunday, hardly anyone had been killed in the Ulster Troubles, and the Provisional IRA to all intents and purposes did not exist. Bloody Sunday convinced thousands of Irish Catholics that there was no point in pursuing their cause through democratic means, and lead directly to the foundation of a brilliantly effective guerilla campaign which did indeed damage Britain considerably, and lead to Britain having to negotiate a compromise with the guerillas since they realized that they could never defeat them militarily. Well, yeah, sure, but the British are perfect...well, not as perfect as the Canadians, of course...and one would find that Britain was and is not damaged anywhere near as much as you seem to think by anything done in Northern Ireland , and secondly, the British are, at the root of it all, responsible for quite a bit of "the mess" in the Middle East, Absolutely. I totally agree. But you must be very, very stupid to think that the next bit in any way follows logically. and for a British serviceman to get all whiny and weepy about how some in an occupying group look upon locals is, bluntly, horse****.. Yeah, who would think that it might be at least a bit hypocritical for a member of the SAS (who, as all members of the armed forces do, speaks for the entirety of the UK forces as well as the population) to get all whiny about a situation for which his country is in large part responsible by virtue of having treating the locals like animals put on this earth for the benefit of a few Brits and their lands and property like the Queen's and King's own... Germany was, at the root of it, responsible for much of WWI. Does that mean that for a German soldier to 'get all whiny and weepy' about slaughtering Polish jews in WWII would have been, bluntly, horse****? WWI didn't involve anything such as what the Brits did in the Middle East, or how anyone treated the "locals" before, during, or after. But if this SAS guy had refused to go to Iraq from the get-go on the basis of the sum of the situation, including the mess the Brits created, that'd be a different story. What I suspect, based on what I've read, is that this guy simply wanted to avoid personal risk and chose an excuse known to afford some protection to the user of such excuses (he would be, if his claims are accurate, thus far the only moral member of the SAS). US troops have quit or tried to quit using the same line. Soldiers don't get to question the "legality" of wars or even the advisability of them - the only "legal" decision a soldier gets is whether they believe their direct orders are lawful, and if they refuse an order on the basis of its legality, they better be damned sure of their position and/or ready to face the consequences. And more importantly, even if what he claims regarding the US forces were 100% true and they applied to every member of those forces, he would have no need (moral or otherwise, and as to opposed to "want") or justification to quit _British_ military service over the actions of US and Iraqi forces. And I find it particularly against logic that some folks want to hold up a single member of any armed service who echoes their beliefs as a beacon to follow, yet casually dismisses any member of those same services who takes a position at odds with their beliefs. |
I'm ashamed of my country
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I'm ashamed of my country
lazarus cooke wrote:
wrote: Oooooh...so it's not the fact that civilians are killed (or murdered), it's the NUMBER that are killed (or murdered)... I consider killing six million jews worse than killing one jew. But maybe you don't. rdean probably thinks it's BETTER. Well, yeah, sure, but the British are perfect.. Here I have to disagree with you strongly. Particularly as regards their track record in Northern Ireland (which I covered as a journalist from 1975 to 1982),. The fact that it was so disgracefully badly covered by the British media led to a great extent to a small problem turning into a big one. The problem with the British media was that they didn't cover all the GOOD NEWS in Northern Ireland. :-) -- Cut "to the chase" for my email address. |
I'm ashamed of my country
I would venture to say that at times torture of prisoners is the only option
left available. Its not pretty, but wounds heal. If the torture of a few people leads to saving of a couple hundred lives, I believe the end justifies the mean. I also believe it depends on who you talk to about how well things are going. If you are only getting your info from the daily news, you are getting a description of the whole picture, just the details of a part of it that they find interesting. The biggest problem I have with our involvement in Iraq, is how we are rebuilding it. We are building high tech schools and hospitals that could be used by the people that are paying for them over here. |
I'm ashamed of my country
"Benjamin Turek" wrote in message news:ctkUf.14649$gD4.5326@trnddc05... I would venture to say that at times torture of prisoners is the only option left available. Its not pretty, but wounds heal. If the torture of a few people leads to saving of a couple hundred lives, I believe the end justifies the mean. sweet baby jesus. i would rather apologize on roff than to be forever known as the author of those words. the horror of that attitude is to obvious to be examined, or explained. awh |
I'm ashamed of my country
"Benjamin Turek" wrote in message news:ctkUf.14649$gD4.5326@trnddc05... I would venture to say that at times torture of prisoners is the only option left available. Its not pretty, but wounds heal. If the torture of a few people leads to saving of a couple hundred lives, I believe the end justifies the mean. Undoubtedly it can save many lives.....maybe.....sometimes. At any rate then, you blelieve that a group of Iraqi "insurgents" are perfectly justifyed in torturing a downed American pilot.....say, a colonel, perhaps.....who could reasonably be expected to know something about upcoming operations in which hundreds of their compatriots might die. Again, it might be highly effective.......but you're going to have some trouble selling the program in Peoria. I also believe it depends on who you talk to about how well things are going. Say, the mother of a murdered Iraqi child, for instance. If you are only getting your info from the daily news, you are getting a description of the whole picture, just the details of a part of it that they find interesting. Actually, we were hoping you would fill us in on the uninteresting parts. We are confident that you won't fail us. The biggest problem I have with our involvement in Iraq, is how we are rebuilding it. We are building high tech schools and hospitals that could be used by the people that are paying for them over here. Well, the money used to bomb and burn the ones they already had could have been used by the people who paid for it over here too. But what good would THAT do anyone? Wolfgang |
I'm ashamed of my country
I guess everything is relative.
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I'm ashamed of my country
Then I guess thats how I'll be remembered.
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I'm ashamed of my country
"Benjamin Turek" wrote in message news:AMkUf.14655$gD4.5707@trnddc05... Then I guess thats how I'll be remembered. well, benjamin, i'm sorry about that. i really am. |
I'm ashamed of my country
"Benjamin Turek" wrote in message news:pJkUf.14654$gD4.1466@trnddc05... I guess everything is relative. Not quite. Dead ones aren't.....not anymore. Wolfgang |
I'm ashamed of my country
Benjamin Turek wrote:
I also believe it depends on who you talk to about how well things are going. If you are only getting your info from the daily news, you are getting a description of the whole picture, just the details of a part of it that they find interesting. One place I'm getting my information from is Iyad Allawi, our hand-picked Iraq Interim Prime Minister. The guy we backed in the last election. (He got 8% of the vote.) The guy who Bush said knew Iraq far better than he did. Allawi says Iraq is now in a civil war. I don't believe a single word I hear about Iraq from the Bush administration, and I believe very little I hear from them about anything. Their record of lying is nearly perfect. -- Cut "to the chase" for my email address. |
I'm ashamed of my country
you shouldn't be, i am fine with what i wrote. if you have an opinion you
might as well stand by it i always thought |
I'm ashamed of my country
yeah except for those
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I'm ashamed of my country
"Benjamin Turek" wrote in message news:zalUf.14056$bu.12783@trnddc04... you shouldn't be, Yeah, everybody should be. i am fine with what i wrote. Yeah. That's the point. if you have an opinion you might as well stand by it i always thought Thinking is not your strong suit. If it were, you would at least know that loyalty to an opinion is about as good a four word description of the basis of everything that is wrong with this world as one could possibly hope for. Wolfgang |
I'm ashamed of my country
so are you to br the champion of the spineless. why don't we pander to whom
ever is selling something good today? I guess that is just another difference in our opinions. not standing up for what you believe is just as wrong, flexibility is the key. and until someone can show the horrific damage caused by a dog lunging at you or licking peanut butter off of you, having your picture taken naked, and witnessing an ugly American have sex is some great evil when American soldiers lives can be on the line I will gladly stand by my opinion. maybe the biggest problem I have is that the information that could have been potentially gathered could have helped to save my life, while I was in a foreign country with people shooting at me. So it has given me a different look at the situation. I didn't have the opportunity to sit in front of my computer and ponder the morality of psychological torture. I am sure you'll get a big kick of breaking this down and writing snappy responses to the individual sentences I wrote. Maybe you'll call me an idiot, although I am sure you won't stoop to using an insult containing less than four syllables. And that's just fine. Some people need to do stuff like that to boost their self image, provide themselves with a sense of accomplishment. And that's fantastic, I am glad I was able to help you. |
I'm ashamed of my country
As a guy that wore a uniform for 23 years, I can tell you that torture
is the quickest way to get your own troops in the same boat. The end DOES NOT JUSTIFY THE MEANS!!! I trained folks around the world on this specific point. Unfortunately, you parrot what you hear from your government and thats why many of our troops are blown up on the streets of Iraq. If we do it, if we sanction it, we reap what we sow. By the way, the worst information validy is gained by info from torture. In my time, if I had heard that info was gained by torture, I would have thrown it out as unreliable. Frank Reid |
I'm ashamed of my country
rdean posted:
"...and regardless of what you mean by "our"..." Strange statement, that...should I have said "your"? --riverman |
I'm ashamed of my country
"Frank Reid" wrote As a guy that wore a uniform for 23 years, I can tell you that torture is the quickest way to get your own troops in the same boat. The end DOES NOT JUSTIFY THE MEANS!!! I trained folks around the world on this specific point. Unfortunately, you parrot what you hear from your government and thats why many of our troops are blown up on the streets of Iraq. If we do it, if we sanction it, we reap what we sow. Thank you Frank ... both for your years of service, and for getting it right Larry ( An American that believes this country is far more than geography, infastructure, and people. MY America is also ideas, noble ones that deserve defending .. even against our own leadership, if need be ) |
I'm ashamed of my country
A comedian quipped: "The only thing I hate worse than tailgaters is
those damn people who go really slow right in front of you!" A roffian posted: "We invaded Iraq because Saddam was a brutal despot, and if we have to torture a few people, its justified." Hmmm.. --riverman Mirror mirror on the wall... |
I'm ashamed of my country
"Benjamin Turek" wrote in message news:GVlUf.9004$vy.6853@trnddc01... so are you to br the champion of the spineless. Hm.....you got a better candidate in mind? why don't we pander to whom ever is selling something good today? Well, I suppose I might patronize someone who had something good to sell today.....if it was something I wanted or needed.....and if the price was right.....but I'll be jiggered if I'd know how to pander to him or her.....or why.....or what any of this has to do with what we're talking about here.....or what the hell you ARE talking about, for that matter....which, if you think about it, makes us about even. I guess that is just another difference in our opinions. You got me stumped, Bennie.....I didn't know one had been offerred. not standing up for what you believe is just as wrong, flexibility is the key. No. Thinking is the key. And it can result in either flexibility or rigidity, depending on circumstances....and how good (or not) you are at it. and until someone can show the horrific damage caused by a dog lunging at you or licking peanut butter off of you, having your picture taken naked, and witnessing an ugly American have sex is some great evil when American soldiers lives can be on the line I will gladly stand by my opinion. I know a dog would have you standing in a warm puddle of your opinion in ten seconds or less. :) maybe the biggest problem I have is that the information that could have been potentially gathered could have helped to save my life, while I was in a foreign country with people shooting at me. No, that is by no means your biggest problem. You have a few greater ones, not the least of which is that dead men write poorly. So it has given me a different look at the situation. Yeah, that much appears to be true. I didn't have the opportunity to sit in front of my computer and ponder the morality of psychological torture. And now, here you are with the opportunity......and no tools. Life just isn't fair, is it? I am sure you'll get a big kick of breaking this down and writing snappy responses to the individual sentences I wrote. It's not much of a kick, really. But I've found that dealing with arguments one at a time makes it a lot easier for me to keep track of them and to do them all the justice they deserve. Besides, it makes it easier for readers. I find the usual hash of selective editing followed by a dull-witted mush at the end very unhelpful. Maybe you'll call me an idiot, Maybe not. Mmmmmm.....aaarggghhhh.....groan......Oh, alright! Idiot. although I am sure you won't stoop to using an insult containing less than four syllables. Hah! Fooled ya! And that's just fine. Well, FINE! Some people need to do stuff like that to boost their self image, provide themselves with a sense of accomplishment. Indeed....and we've certainly got our share of them. But I'm working on that. And that's fantastic, No, that's bad.....and not a little sad......um....well, sometimes it's funny. :) I am glad I was able to help you. Well there, as they say, is the rub, Bennie. You haven't. You haven't helped anyone......least of all yourself. A stew of self-pity, rage, ignorance, nationalism, and bigotry is just something to sit in till you get eaten, and whether it's someone else who partakes of the repast or yourself is immaterial in the end. Wolfgang |
I'm ashamed of my country
riverman wrote:
A roffian posted: "We invaded Iraq because Saddam was a brutal despot, and if we have to torture a few people, its justified." Hmmm.. Report: U.S. military abused Iraqi detainees at former Saddam military base: http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/w...raq-abuse.html -- Cut "to the chase" for my email address. |
I'm ashamed of my country
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I'm ashamed of my country
On Wed, 22 Mar 2006 22:55:46 -0600, Kevin Vang wrote:
In article ctkUf.14649$gD4.5326@trnddc05, says... I would venture to say that at times torture of prisoners is the only option left available. Its not pretty, but wounds heal. If the torture of a few people leads to saving of a couple hundred lives, I believe the end justifies the mean. Math problem: Let p1 = the probability that there might be a ticking time bomb somewhere. Let p2 = probability that the prisoner in custody has information about the bomb. Let p3 = the probability that we could get accurate information from the prisoner about the bomb. Let p4 = the probability that we could get and use the information in time, and let n = the expected number of lives that could be saved. What are the minimum values of p1, p2, p3, p4, and n which would justify the use of torture? Kevin All depending on how you define "we", whenever p2 is 100%, p3 is also 100%. Also depending on how you define "we," if p1 is anything above zero and n equals 1 or more, especially if "n" is or consists of your wife, kid(s), mother, father, friend(s), or anyone else you care about, I'd suspect that you would hope p4 would be 100%, but would take anything above zero given no other options... The problem is that p2 is almost always a completely unknown variable and p3 decreases exponentially with regard to a decrease in p2...calculating p3 is easy, but you MUST know p2, and it's almost always incalculable. HTH, R |
I'm ashamed of my country
On 22 Mar 2006 17:40:25 -0800, "riverman" wrote:
rdean posted: "...and regardless of what you mean by "our"..." Strange statement, that...should I have said "your"? What's so strange? You said "our (military)"...define "our"...and then explain how "our" encompasses any and all that might read your post... HTH, R |
I'm ashamed of my country
On Wed, 22 Mar 2006 22:58:54 GMT, "Wayne Harrison" wrote:
"Benjamin Turek" wrote in message news:ctkUf.14649$gD4.5326@trnddc05... I would venture to say that at times torture of prisoners is the only option left available. Its not pretty, but wounds heal. If the torture of a few people leads to saving of a couple hundred lives, I believe the end justifies the mean. sweet baby jesus. i would rather apologize on roff than to be forever known as the author of those words. the horror of that attitude is to obvious to be examined, or explained. awh wayno, I'd simply offer this, and I'm not asking for your comment (although it is welcome), just your consideration - if the torture (however you choose to define it) of those who were intent upon harming your loved ones (or even just unknown innocents), without the slightest hesitation, thought, or remorse, would (or even likely could) save the lives of those self-same people, what would you want done? The horror of a lot of things is obvious, but it doesn't mean that sometimes the best of men must endure a lessor horror while standing to prevent a greater horror...and more than you can probably imagine, I hope you and yours never have to get right up in the face of either... TC, R |
I'm ashamed of my country
Frank Reid wrote: As a guy that wore a uniform for 23 years, I can tell you that torture is the quickest way to get your own troops in the same boat. The end DOES NOT JUSTIFY THE MEANS!!! I trained folks around the world on this specific point. Unfortunately, you parrot what you hear from your government and thats why many of our troops are blown up on the streets of Iraq. If we do it, if we sanction it, we reap what we sow. By the way, the worst information validy is gained by info from torture. In my time, if I had heard that info was gained by torture, I would have thrown it out as unreliable. Frank Reid I've noticed that almost all of the people that are cheering on the torturing are safely sitting behind their computer screens at least 6,000 miles away from any chance that they will have to face the consequences. |
I'm ashamed of my country
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I'm ashamed of my country
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I'm ashamed of my country
"Math problem: Let p1 = the probability that there might be a ticking
time bomb somewhere. Let p2 = probability that the prisoner in custody has information about the bomb. Let p3 = the probability that we could get accurate information from the prisoner about the bomb. Let p4 = the probability that we could get and use the information in time, and let n = the expected number of lives that could be saved. What are the minimum values of p1, p2, p3, p4, and n which would justify the use of torture?" An interesting effort to use pseudomath to dehumanize a decision. It gives math a bad name. Pretty much any bad decision can be justified by simplifying it into only the variables you want to consider. Why not take into consideration the emotional and personal toll on the torturers, the stress caused to troopers who feel morally repulsed by the knowledge that their country tortures people, the future impact on diplomacy, the lost future 'bargaining rights' with the host countries of the victims, the economic impacts of dealing with countries that have trade ministers who abhor torture, or the entire slippery slope of creeping change in how wars are conducted. If we condone torture in any form, we have already begue to become who we are fighting against, and have accepted and adopted the very standards that we profess to be fighting against. How can we continue to protest the WTC plane crashes as being 'wrong', as its only a few steps further down the road to conducting terrorism ourselves on that same scale. We become them. Fit that into your probability model. --riverman |
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