And you said it couldn't happen
 

http://www.iht.com/articles/2006/05/...ess/expats.php

Those rat *******s. Because of the cost of rentals in HK, my housing benefit
is technically higher than my income. And now I'm going to be taxed on this
'invisible money' at a rate higher than if I was even living in the US.

--riverman

And you said it couldn't happen
 

"riverman" wrote in message ...
http://www.iht.com/articles/2006/05/...ess/expats.php

Those rat *******s. Because of the cost of rentals in HK, my housing
benefit is technically higher than my income. And now I'm going to be
taxed on this 'invisible money' at a rate higher than if I was even living
in the US.

If what you say about your income is accurate, get your contract changed and
the housing allowance moved into your base salary.

Otherwise, I'd like to sympathize but I don't get my first 80K tax exempt
nor my housing paid for.

And you said it couldn't happen
 

"Wayne Knight" wrote in message
...
"riverman" wrote in message
...
http://www.iht.com/articles/2006/05/...ess/expats.php

Those rat *******s. Because of the cost of rentals in HK, my housing
benefit is technically higher than my income. And now I'm going to be
taxed on this 'invisible money' at a rate higher than if I was even
living in the US.

If what you say about your income is accurate, get your contract changed
and the housing allowance moved into your base salary.

The school is looking at ways to legally accomodate this new law, but their
first impression is that there will be a mass exodus of americans in the
next few years.


Otherwise, I'd like to sympathize but I don't get my first 80K tax exempt
nor my housing paid for.



'First' 80K? Who makes anywhere near $80K? And my HK taxes are already
higher than my US taxes would be, as they are at a flat rate, with no
exemption or standard deduction. Also, you get to have a retirement plan, a
ROTH, a representative in the government to protect your rights, etc. You
also get the option to own your housing, and to write off the interest on
your loan against your mortage payment, which is akin to having your housing
paid for and then some.

We've been down this road before, but trust me; being an expat worker is
just another slice of real life; it comes with its benefits and its
expenses, but its not the end of the rainbow. Its a choice of lifestyle
based on knowing the benefits and deficits. Getting a tax benefit isn't some
sort of free pass to nevernever land, and when its invoked on a teacher's
salary, and offset by the expenses of living overseas, its not even such a
big thing. My out of pocket expenses for living overseas far exceed the
taxes I'd be paying on my salary if I worked back home.

But now, the primary benefit just went away, and a huge expense just
increased. Hitting expat workers for a tax hike is just a cheap shot, as our
tax benefit is absolutely nothing compared to the tax release Bush just gave
the ultra rich, and we have no lobby, no legal representation, and no one
looking out for our side. And it generates a very strange type of
sympathetic support for Bush when other 'victims' of his fiscal
mismanagement see him picking on someone else other than them. Its a
smokescreen for the tax cuts to the wealthy.

--riverman

And you said it couldn't happen
 

"riverman" wrote in message ...


LOL. http://tinyurl.com/p87wu

"But repealing the exclusion would also pinch many less-fortunate Americans
in low-tax overseas locations such as Hong Kong, Saudi Arabia and Singapore.
These workers include US taxpayers hired on increasingly common "local" pay
packages - which contain fewer perks and are cheaper for companies to
provide - and people like teachers and not-for-profit workers, who enjoy no
corporate largess. "

--riverman

And you said it couldn't happen
 

On Sat, 20 May 2006 11:35:55 +0800, "riverman" wrote:

http://www.iht.com/articles/2006/05/...ess/expats.php

Those rat *******s. Because of the cost of rentals in HK, my housing benefit
is technically higher than my income. And now I'm going to be taxed on this
'invisible money' at a rate higher than if I was even living in the US.

--riverman

I'm with ya, brother...just tell me which one of those rat *******s
forced you into being an expat worker, and I'll not only see about
getting you back to the US, but I'll taunt him unmercifully... Which
one, huh, which one?

Got your back,
R

And you said it couldn't happen
 

On Sat, 20 May 2006 12:25:19 +0800, "riverman" wrote:


"Wayne Knight" wrote in message
...
"riverman" wrote in message
...
http://www.iht.com/articles/2006/05/...ess/expats.php

Those rat *******s. Because of the cost of rentals in HK, my housing
benefit is technically higher than my income. And now I'm going to be
taxed on this 'invisible money' at a rate higher than if I was even
living in the US.

If what you say about your income is accurate, get your contract changed
and the housing allowance moved into your base salary.

The school is looking at ways to legally accomodate this new law, but their
first impression is that there will be a mass exodus of americans in the
next few years.


Otherwise, I'd like to sympathize but I don't get my first 80K tax exempt
nor my housing paid for.



'First' 80K? Who makes anywhere near $80K?

OK, my brother, I'm still with ya, but I'm kinda wondering what's the
problem here? If you don't make 80K, I'm guessing the new 82K isn't a
problem, either, but with these rat *******s having forced you into
this...

And my HK taxes are already
higher than my US taxes would be, as they are at a flat rate, with no
exemption or standard deduction. Also, you get to have a retirement plan, a
ROTH, a representative in the government to protect your rights, etc. You
also get the option to own your housing, and to write off the interest on
your loan against your mortage payment, which is akin to having your housing
paid for and then some.

Yeah, Wayne...I just hope you thank God every morning that when they
came to force you into working outside the US, you escaped and have
managed to stay out of their clutches ever since...I'm planning on doing
what I can to help my brother Myron escape - surely you're with us,
aren't ya, my brother?

We've been down this road before, but trust me; being an expat worker is
just another slice of real life; it comes with its benefits and its
expenses, but its not the end of the rainbow.

Its a choice of lifestyle

Oh...hmm, ya know, my ex-stepbrother-in-law, it's kinda hard to work up
a really good sense of outrage against a stove company when the "victim"
claims they got a bad burn and a scar that said "Do Not Sit Here" _EVERY
time_ they hopped up on it...

HTH,
R

And you said it couldn't happen
 

wrote in message
...
On Sat, 20 May 2006 11:35:55 +0800, "riverman" wrote:

http://www.iht.com/articles/2006/05/...ess/expats.php

Those rat *******s. Because of the cost of rentals in HK, my housing
benefit
is technically higher than my income. And now I'm going to be taxed on
this
'invisible money' at a rate higher than if I was even living in the US.

--riverman

I'm with ya, brother...just tell me which one of those rat *******s
forced you into being an expat worker, and I'll not only see about
getting you back to the US, but I'll taunt him unmercifully... Which
one, huh, which one?

Got your back,
R

Yeah, you have a point. Sorry for the bandwidth...I have no idea why I
posted this here; there isn't anything I'm asking of anyone. I'm just
reacting because I'm feeling betrayed by my government again, and bull****
about how damn hard it is to get ahead in this freaking life, and I'm
talking to my primary community since I don't live in the US, surrounded by
neighbors and friends. Something I suspect you certainly don't have any
clue about, as you believe I live some sort of life of gravy surrounded by
luxury and relieved of any financial worries.

Cannibals, that what we've become. With all sure love to see other people
struggle to try to make a living. If anyone gets a benefit, and its not us,
then lets rejoice when they lose it. Certainly its an unfair advantage. What
right do they have to get something I don't get, just because they live and
work outside the country? And if something is prohibited to them or some
other expenses are extreme because of their lifestyle, then its probably
justified. Because expat teachers are obviously getting fabulously rich
doing what they do, and the tax break and housing benefit they are allowed
are most likely just excess spending money on top of a lucrative salary and
luxuriant lifestyle. Just like those corporate execs who closing this tax
'loophole' was intended to impact. Besides, even if they are barely getting
by, at least they're in Europe, or Hong Kong, or Africa or something. They
get to travel.

Forgive me if I don't post here for a bit.

--riverman

And you said it couldn't happen
 

On Sat, 20 May 2006 20:33:18 +0800, "riverman" wrote:


wrote in message
.. .
On Sat, 20 May 2006 11:35:55 +0800, "riverman" wrote:

http://www.iht.com/articles/2006/05/...ess/expats.php

Those rat *******s. Because of the cost of rentals in HK, my housing
benefit
is technically higher than my income. And now I'm going to be taxed on
this
'invisible money' at a rate higher than if I was even living in the US.

--riverman

I'm with ya, brother...just tell me which one of those rat *******s
forced you into being an expat worker, and I'll not only see about
getting you back to the US, but I'll taunt him unmercifully... Which
one, huh, which one?

Got your back,
R

Yeah, you have a point. Sorry for the bandwidth...I have no idea why I
posted this here; there isn't anything I'm asking of anyone. I'm just
reacting because I'm feeling betrayed by my government again, and bull****
about how damn hard it is to get ahead in this freaking life, and I'm
talking to my primary community since I don't live in the US, surrounded by
neighbors and friends. Something I suspect you certainly don't have any
clue about, as you believe I live some sort of life of gravy surrounded by
luxury and relieved of any financial worries.

I don't claim, nor have I ever, anything about your financial situation.
But if didn't know anything about what it would be like before you
jumped in, that's on you. And if you were being taxed in such fashion
so as to move you from a "live of gravy surrounded by luxury" to
poverty, that might be a different story. However, the link you posted
gave the example of someone who made 75K and was provided a 3000.00USD a
month Paris apartment, whose tax bill was going from 600.00USD to about
5100.00USD. That 4500.00 difference is more than a goodly number of
people in world make, so it's kinda tough to get all worked up and
outraged for that poor unfortunate, toughing it out on a mere 71K in a
paid-for Paris apartment...

Cannibals, that what we've become. With all sure love to see other people
struggle to try to make a living. If anyone gets a benefit, and its not us,
then lets rejoice when they lose it. Certainly its an unfair advantage. What
right do they have to get something I don't get, just because they live and
work outside the country? And if something is prohibited to them or some
other expenses are extreme because of their lifestyle, then its probably
justified. Because expat teachers are obviously getting fabulously rich
doing what they do, and the tax break and housing benefit they are allowed
are most likely just excess spending money on top of a lucrative salary and
luxuriant lifestyle. Just like those corporate execs who closing this tax
'loophole' was intended to impact. Besides, even if they are barely getting
by, at least they're in Europe, or Hong Kong, or Africa or something. They
get to travel.

Hey, then quit teaching and become a corporate exec. If you got into
teaching for the purpose of getting rich, you ****ed up...in several
ways...

HTH,
R

And you said it couldn't happen
 

riverman wrote:
wrote:
I'm with ya, brother...just tell me which one of those rat *******s
forced you into being an expat worker, and I'll not only see about
getting you back to the US, but I'll taunt him unmercifully... Which
one, huh, which one?

Got your back,
R

Yeah, you have a point. Sorry for the bandwidth...
snip
Forgive me if I don't post here for a bit.

That's some pretty thin skin you got there Myron.

The gubmint screwed you with your pants on and neither
Knight nor Dickie Dean has any sympathy for you. So
friggin' what ? You have my sincerest condolences on
your impending financial loss, now quit yer whining.

--
Ken Fortenberry

And you said it couldn't happen
 

"Ken Fortenberry" wrote in message
et...
riverman wrote:
wrote:
I'm with ya, brother...just tell me which one of those rat *******s
forced you into being an expat worker, and I'll not only see about
getting you back to the US, but I'll taunt him unmercifully... Which
one, huh, which one?

Got your back,
R

Yeah, you have a point. Sorry for the bandwidth...
snip
Forgive me if I don't post here for a bit.

That's some pretty thin skin you got there Myron.

The gubmint screwed you with your pants on and neither
Knight nor Dickie Dean has any sympathy for you. So
friggin' what ? You have my sincerest condolences on
your impending financial loss, now quit yer whining.



Nah, its not their lack of sympathy, Ken. I feel a bit embarassed for
bringing it here.

myron

And you said it couldn't happen
 

riverman wrote:
"Ken Fortenberry" wrote in message
et...
riverman wrote:
wrote:
I'm with ya, brother...just tell me which one of those rat *******s
forced you into being an expat worker, and I'll not only see about
getting you back to the US, but I'll taunt him unmercifully... Which
one, huh, which one?

Got your back,
R
Yeah, you have a point. Sorry for the bandwidth...
snip
Forgive me if I don't post here for a bit.
That's some pretty thin skin you got there Myron.

The gubmint screwed you with your pants on and neither
Knight nor Dickie Dean has any sympathy for you. So
friggin' what ? You have my sincerest condolences on
your impending financial loss, now quit yer whining.



Nah, its not their lack of sympathy, Ken. I feel a bit embarassed for
bringing it here.

Why ? Is it not something that might come up in a conversation
on a fishing trip ? As in, Man, you won't believe how I got
screwed ? Well then, it's a perfectly good roff post in my ever
so humble opinion.

--
Ken Fortenberry

And you said it couldn't happen
 

riverman wrote:

Nah, its not their lack of sympathy, Ken. I feel a bit embarassed for
bringing it here.

You're losing sight of the bigger picture. This bill isn't a tax
increase. It's a tax cut. According to David Cay Johnston of the Tax
Policy Center:

"The top tenth of 1 percent, whose average income is $5.3 million, would
save an average of $82,415. Those in the top group would see their tax
bill cut 4.8 percent, while Americans at the center of the income
distribution — the middle fifth of taxpayers, who will earn an average
of $36,000 this year — could expect a 0.4 percent reduction in their tax
bill, or about $20.

"Those who make less than $75,000 — which includes about 75 percent of
all taxpayers — would save, at most, $110 each. Those making more than
$1 million would save, on average, almost $42,000."

Now do you feel better?

--
Cut "to the chase" for my email address.

And you said it couldn't happen
 

On Sat, 20 May 2006 07:57:10 -0600, rw
wrote:

riverman wrote:

Nah, its not their lack of sympathy, Ken. I feel a bit embarassed for
bringing it here.

You're losing sight of the bigger picture. This bill isn't a tax
increase. It's a tax cut. According to David Cay Johnston of the Tax
Policy Center:

"The top tenth of 1 percent, whose average income is $5.3 million, would
save an average of $82,415. Those in the top group would see their tax
bill cut 4.8 percent, while Americans at the center of the income
distribution — the middle fifth of taxpayers, who will earn an average
of $36,000 this year — could expect a 0.4 percent reduction in their tax
bill, or about $20.

So, let's do a little math, forgetting about earned income vs. taxable
income, etc., and just use what you've cut-n-pasted. The person who
earned 5.3 mil would pay around 1.75mil or about a third of their
income, and the 36K person would pay around 5.1K, or about 1/7 of their
income. Tell ya what, since you're a money wiz, I'm gonna let you rip
me off the same way - let's you and I buy 100,000 oz. of gold, and I'll
pay for a 1/7th of it. Then I'll let you screw me over and I'll just
take 49,000 oz rather than half...

And before you go there, I'd suggest that the likelihood is that the 36K
person will use more, over their lifetime, in direct government
benefits/services (for example, schools rather than "universal"
benefits, such as the interstate highway system), than the 5.3 mil
person.

"Those who make less than $75,000 — which includes about 75 percent of
all taxpayers — would save, at most, $110 each. Those making more than
$1 million would save, on average, almost $42,000."

Apparently, no one making under 80K (or now, 82K) will "save" (really,
pay less) anything as they weren't paying anything before. Myron has
implied that he makes under 80K, so he wasn't paying taxes on his salary
income before and won't be now. However, his housing which is provided
to him, is now being calculated differently and some or all of it could
be added to his taxable income (after the first 11K or so). There are
"fringe benefits" which are, or contextually can be, chargeable to
taxable income for those who live and work in the US, too (look at the
"frequent flyer" brouhaha). And frankly, that someone who, as in
article, who makes 75K salary and a 3000USD a month Paris apartment
provided AND who has all the benefits of US citizenship for even 4500USD
a year is getting a deal. That they were previously getting those
benefits for 600USD a year seems the biggest ripoff in the whole deal -
that's not even a Frappimochachino a (business) day...

And you said it couldn't happen
 

On Sat, 20 May 2006 13:51:43 GMT, Ken Fortenberry
wrote:

riverman wrote:
"Ken Fortenberry" wrote in message
et...
riverman wrote:
wrote:
I'm with ya, brother...just tell me which one of those rat *******s
forced you into being an expat worker, and I'll not only see about
getting you back to the US, but I'll taunt him unmercifully... Which
one, huh, which one?

Got your back,
R
Yeah, you have a point. Sorry for the bandwidth...
snip
Forgive me if I don't post here for a bit.
That's some pretty thin skin you got there Myron.

The gubmint screwed you with your pants on and neither
Knight nor Dickie Dean has any sympathy for you. So
friggin' what ? You have my sincerest condolences on
your impending financial loss, now quit yer whining.



Nah, its not their lack of sympathy, Ken. I feel a bit embarassed for
bringing it here.

Why ? Is it not something that might come up in a conversation
on a fishing trip ? As in, Man, you won't believe how I got
screwed ? Well then, it's a perfectly good roff post in my ever
so humble opinion.

Heck, I'd not dispute that, but as you yourself have so frequently
pointed out, "post at your own risk"...

And you said it couldn't happen
 

And you said it couldn't happen
 

"riverman" wrote in message ...


The school is looking at ways to legally accomodate this new law, but
their first impression is that there will be a mass exodus of americans in
the next few years.

I doubt there will be a mass exodus. When it gets right down to it, you need
a new tax accountant. While I am an accountant, I am not a tax accountant
but isn't there some credit for taxes paid in another country? The expats I
do taxes for don't pay a foreign income tax and it's been a while since I
dealt with it.

'First' 80K? Who makes anywhere near $80K? [snip] Also, you get to have a
retirement plan, a ROTH, a representative in the government to protect
your rights, etc. You also get the option to own your housing, and to
write off the interest on your loan against your mortage payment, which is
akin to having your housing paid for and then some.

Do you want me to apologize for working full time, raising a kid, and
getting three degrees after being a ward of the state of Florida while you
were out perfecting your paddling skills? I worked my ass off, took some
lumps, made some mistakes, got a few breaks here and there, but overall just
persevered. Yes, I make more than 80k as I'm sure several here do. some here
make more than me, some make less, so what? I don't get to take summers off
and go all over the world to fish and see places I only dream about in
National geographic. As to my retirement plan, like most non-union
non-public sector employees I'm on a defined contribution plan. I'm
dependent on the stock market and what I can put away in a 403b to eat and
travel on something besides social security. You're right it's a lifestyle
choice, I made mine and I live with it. You got the same government bubba,
but as far as representing "me", I'm a democrat in a republican state :(

We've been down this road before, but trust me; being an expat worker is
just another slice of real life; it comes with its benefits and its
expenses, but its not the end of the rainbow. Its a choice of lifestyle
based on knowing the benefits and deficits. Getting a tax benefit isn't
some sort of free pass to nevernever land, and when its invoked on a
teacher's salary, and offset by the expenses of living overseas, its not
even such a big thing. My out of pocket expenses for living overseas far
exceed the taxes I'd be paying on my salary if I worked back home.

Maybe you have mis-conception on teacher's salary, last time we got into
this particular ****ing contest I googled up a couple of stories which
mentioned long term teachers in the Chicago area and somewhere near
DC/Baltimore getting 6 figures salaries. Granted these are the exceptions
but teachers are not exactly living in poverty.

But now, the primary benefit just went away, and a huge expense just
increased. Hitting expat workers for a tax hike is just a cheap shot, as
our tax benefit is absolutely nothing compared to the tax release Bush
just gave the ultra rich, and we have no lobby, no legal representation,
and no one looking out for our side. And it generates a very strange type
of sympathetic support for Bush when other 'victims' of his fiscal
mismanagement see him picking on someone else other than them. Its a
smokescreen for the tax cuts to the wealthy.

You know I despise Bush as much as anyone and the overall tax cut does
benefit the higher paying *taxpayers* which I think is wrong in this period
of deficits and supposed war, it alos makes need changes to the alternative
minimum tax which has become more and more a middle class tax trap. And if
you expats had no *lobby*, then why are we reading about it in national
publications? Like I said the first time you brought this up, we have single
moms in this country trying to escape poverty making what you make and
paying taxes. So now you have to pay taxes on your housing, you income is
still tax exempt. In your case it is a very easy fix to keep your money tax
free. Like I said, hire a good tax accountant. He/She will be worth the
$500-$1000 its going to cost you.

And you said it couldn't happen
 

On Sat, 20 May 2006 09:58:01 -0600, Willi wrote:

wrote:


You using your trout vision to get this perspective?

Yes.

And you said it couldn't happen
 

wrote in message
...

Yeah, Wayne...I just hope you thank God every morning that when they
came to force you into working outside the US, you escaped and have
managed to stay out of their clutches ever since...I'm planning on doing
what I can to help my brother Myron escape - surely you're with us,
aren't ya, my brother?

I worked overseas once, not my cup of tea. At least Saudi Arabia wasn't.

And you said it couldn't happen
 

...We've been down this road before, but trust me; being an expat worker is
just another slice of real life; it comes with its benefits and its
expenses, but its not the end of the rainbow. Its a choice of lifestyle
based on knowing the benefits and deficits.....

A choice. Then why the periodic whines?

Wolfgang

And you said it couldn't happen
 

...So, let's do a little math, forgetting about earned income vs. taxable
income, etc., and just use what you've cut-n-pasted. The person who
earned 5.3 mil would pay around 1.75mil or about a third of their
income, and the 36K person would pay around 5.1K, or about 1/7 of their
income....

O.k., I'm not real good at math. Maybe you can help me out here.
Which one has $3,550,000 left and which one $30,900 after taxes?

Let me guess.....some of you guys STILL think this filthy little thing
is a human being......right? :)

Wolfgang
who, last time he looked (just over a month ago) paid the feds about a
fifth of his taxable income.......and is wondering where his millions
went. :(

And you said it couldn't happen
 

On 20 May 2006 18:29:48 -0700, "Wolfgang" wrote:

...So, let's do a little math, forgetting about earned income vs. taxable
income, etc., and just use what you've cut-n-pasted. The person who
earned 5.3 mil would pay around 1.75mil or about a third of their
income, and the 36K person would pay around 5.1K, or about 1/7 of their
income....

O.k., I'm not real good at math. Maybe you can help me out here.
Which one has $3,550,000 left and which one $30,900 after taxes?

And not very good at logic, either...here, it's real simple - the person
who _earned_ 5.3 mil has 3.55 mil or 2/3 of their _earned_ income and
the person who _earned_ 36K has 30.9K or 6/7 of their _earned_ income...

Let me guess.....some of you guys STILL think this filthy little thing
is a human being......right? :)

No "we" don't...and you're a liar...

Wolfgang
who, last time he looked (just over a month ago) paid the feds about a
fifth of his taxable income

Maybe you and Myron could get a twofer-deal at H & R Blockhead...and
maybe they can explain, in one-syllable words, why being taxed O% of his
_earned_ income and 20% of your "earned" income beats the **** out of
33.3% of another's _earned_ income....

.......and is wondering where his millions went. :(

It's the result of a cheap education and making EXTREMELY bad wagers,
one nickel at time...oh, wait...did you mean dollars? Hey, at least in
theory, you might live to 52,397...

HTH,
The Unclean One

And you said it couldn't happen
 

On 20 May 2006 17:14:18 -0700, "Wolfgang" wrote:

...We've been down this road before, but trust me; being an expat worker is
just another slice of real life; it comes with its benefits and its
expenses, but its not the end of the rainbow. Its a choice of lifestyle
based on knowing the benefits and deficits.....

A choice. Then why the periodic whines?

Copycat...

And you said it couldn't happen
 

Copycat...

****bag.

Wolfgang

And you said it couldn't happen
 

O.k., I'm not real good at math. Maybe you can help me out here.
Which one has $3,550,000 left and which one $30,900 after taxes?



And not very good at logic, either...here, it's real simple - the person
who _earned_ 5.3 mil has 3.55 mil or 2/3 of their _earned_ income and
the person who _earned_ 36K has 30.9K or 6/7 of their _earned_ income...

Logic? Ooh.....FUN! How do we know that anybody involved "earned"
anything?

Let me guess.....some of you guys STILL think this filthy little thing
is a human being......right? :)

No "we" don't...

Well, that's good.

and you're a liar...

Ouch.

Wolfgang
who, last time he looked (just over a month ago) paid the feds about a
fifth of his taxable income


Maybe you and Myron could get a twofer-deal at H & R Blockhead...and
maybe they can explain, in one-syllable words, why being taxed O% of his
_earned_ income and 20% of your "earned" income beats the **** out of
33.3% of another's _earned_ income....

You should try working for a living sometime......you'd be surprised at
what it would do to your perspective.

.......and is wondering where his millions went. :(


It's the result of a cheap education and making EXTREMELY bad wagers,
one nickel at time...oh, wait...did you mean dollars? Hey, at least in
theory, you might live to 52,397...

I got a shiny new nickel says I know where this exchance is going to
go.

Wolfgang
yeah, i'm easily amused........so? :)

And you said it couldn't happen
 

On 20 May 2006 20:26:50 -0700, "Wolfgang" wrote:

It's the result of a cheap education and making EXTREMELY bad wagers,
one nickel at time...oh, wait...did you mean dollars? Hey, at least in
theory, you might live to 52,397...

I got a shiny new nickel says I know where this exchance is going to
go.

Well, see...you just don't how to put your pittance to work for you...

And you said it couldn't happen
 

On 20 May 2006 20:19:16 -0700, "Wolfgang" wrote:

Copycat...

****bag.

Hey, hey...I'm a douchebag, thank you very much...

And you said it couldn't happen
 

"riverman" wrote in message ...

"riverman" wrote in message
...


LOL. http://tinyurl.com/p87wu

"But repealing the exclusion would also pinch many less-fortunate
Americans in low-tax overseas locations such as Hong Kong, Saudi Arabia
and Singapore. These workers include US taxpayers hired on increasingly
common "local" pay packages - which contain fewer perks and are cheaper
for companies to provide - and people like teachers and not-for-profit
workers, who enjoy no corporate largess. "

--riverman



And in the USA the average person gets a $24,000 exclusion, and you complain
about a drop from $80k to $70k exclusion? And if you get your housing paid
for here in the states, it counts towards your taxable income. I always
thought it was rip to give the exclusion in the first place. When I had to
go overseas on business, I did not get an exclusion on my pay during the 2-3
weeks I traveled.

And you said it couldn't happen
 

wrote in message
...
On Sat, 20 May 2006 12:25:19 +0800, "riverman" wrote:


"Wayne Knight" wrote in message
...
"riverman" wrote in message
...
http://www.iht.com/articles/2006/05/...ess/expats.php

Those rat *******s. Because of the cost of rentals in HK, my housing
benefit is technically higher than my income. And now I'm going to be
taxed on this 'invisible money' at a rate higher than if I was even
living in the US.

If what you say about your income is accurate, get your contract changed
and the housing allowance moved into your base salary.

The school is looking at ways to legally accomodate this new law, but
their
first impression is that there will be a mass exodus of americans in the
next few years.


Otherwise, I'd like to sympathize but I don't get my first 80K tax
exempt
nor my housing paid for.



'First' 80K? Who makes anywhere near $80K?

OK, my brother, I'm still with ya, but I'm kinda wondering what's the
problem here? If you don't make 80K, I'm guessing the new 82K isn't a
problem, either, but with these rat *******s having forced you into
this...

And my HK taxes are already
higher than my US taxes would be, as they are at a flat rate, with no
exemption or standard deduction. Also, you get to have a retirement plan,
a
ROTH, a representative in the government to protect your rights, etc. You
also get the option to own your housing, and to write off the interest on
your loan against your mortage payment, which is akin to having your
housing
paid for and then some.

Yeah, Wayne...I just hope you thank God every morning that when they
came to force you into working outside the US, you escaped and have
managed to stay out of their clutches ever since...I'm planning on doing
what I can to help my brother Myron escape - surely you're with us,
aren't ya, my brother?

We've been down this road before, but trust me; being an expat worker is
just another slice of real life; it comes with its benefits and its
expenses, but its not the end of the rainbow.

Its a choice of lifestyle

Oh...hmm, ya know, my ex-stepbrother-in-law, it's kinda hard to work up
a really good sense of outrage against a stove company when the "victim"
claims they got a bad burn and a scar that said "Do Not Sit Here" _EVERY
time_ they hopped up on it...

HTH,
R


And are not those British taxes deductible, or a credit against US taxes?

And you said it couldn't happen
 

"Calif Bill" wrote in message
.net...


And are not those British taxes deductible, or a credit against US taxes?

Hi Bill (et al),
I wasn't going to discuss this here, because I know that its beyond
understanding of most folks in the states. They hear 'tax exemption' all
their sympathies go out the window, and are replaced with thoughts like 'I
pay my taxes, you should pay yours' and 'gee, I wish I had an $80K
exemption' and they miss the details. Its the inability or unwillingness to
consider those details that enables things like this tax law to get passed
in the first place.

Let me explain the details one time, then I'm EOT because the talk I've seen
here shows me that my frustration is not understood nor sympathized with,
and instead (knowing the history of this forum), people here love to get all
piranha on each other when they see someone truly upset, as I am.

First of all, I don't pay taxes to the Brits. I pay to the HK government,
which is a Special Administrative Region of the Chinese Government. So my
tax dollars (at a 15% flat 15% rate of my income-plus-10%, with no
exemptions or deductions) goes to fund the big Chinese entity in the east.
That's a condition of working here in HK which I was fully aware of and am
not concerned with. My HK tax, after all the nickles and dimes, is
reasonable as HK prefers to keep taxes low to entice businesses to come
here. I pay something in the realm of $3000 US for yearly HK taxes.

Second of all, I still don't pay any US taxes on my income. That exemption
was actually increased, something that only affects the expats who earn more
than $82K a year, which for the record is not even in the ballpark of my
salary. As far as HK expats go, I earn a teacher's salary.

Now, some of most of you are already not listening, because I said the magic
turnoff words 'don't pay US taxes', but consider the rest of the picture.

The new US tax burden is on the Housing Benefit alone. It was designed to
target those expat corporate execs who are earning $100K per year, but are
being given luxurious $3K -$4K per month apartments in cities all over the
world as a tax-hidden benefit, most of which are in countries with standards
of living far below the US. Those guys are living like kings, as $3k buys a
mansion. It specifically lowers the excludable housing allowance from
whatever it was (beyond what my housing was worth) to about $11K. For most
expats in the world, the new housing cap has no effect, as your average
teacher's apartment is probably in the realm of $300-$400 a month.

Here in HK, thats not the case. In fact, HK is being held up as a specific
place where the new law doesn't fit. Apartments are EXPENSIVE. I could not
affort to teach here if I had to pay my own rent; my 1-story 2 bedroom flat,
with a kitchen that measures 3x4 feet and a bedroom only big enough for a
bed (no dresser) rents for $3500 per month. In fact, the rental on my
efficiency apartment exceeds my yearly income.

And any housing benefit I recieve that has value beyond $11k, I now have to
pay US taxes on. So my tax liability is now based on US$31000. To top that
off, the tax tables for this particular expat tax aren't 'stepped': you pay
the full rate on the first dollar, instead of a smaller percentage on the
first chunk, as with most other US taxes. On top of that, its a higher tax
rate than regular income tax. The result is that it looks like I'll be
liable for about $6000 in US taxes next year. Keep in mind, the new law
prohibits me from writing off my HK taxes against that, as its a tax on a
different part of my income. The HK tax is against my US income tax, which
is sheltered. Also, there are NO shelters allowed against the new housing
tax. Its a flat rate without loopholes. Also, keep in mind that in any other
part of the world, if I were getting a $3500 apartment, I'd be a corporate
exec with discretionary funds, corporate largesse, access to corporate
accountants, and could easily dodge this bullet with voodoo bookkeeping.
But, of all the expats in the world, its HK medium income workers who are
being caught in the crosshairs the most.

Now, for the IMPORTANT part (for those of you who stopped reading at 'I
don't pay taxes'). If I worked in the US, I wouldn't pay taxes either,
just as many of you don't pay taxes. My income, as a teacher with 15 years
experience, would be about what it is now, however I could itemize. I could
write off my exemption, my yearly donation to a ROTH or 401K, my mortagage
interest, my work-related expenses, my home improvement costs, education
expenses, travel expenses, moving expenses, etc etc etc, and at the end of
the year, I'd be getting back pretty much all I sent in. (Maybe less a
thousand or two, but not much.). But since I do not have any US based
income, I can't write off those expenses. I'm not even allowed to have some
of them (ROTH), and the others I have to just eat, like the mortage interest
and housing expenses. But thats okay; the $82K exemption I am allowed
roughly offsets those expenses, and the net result is the same. So please
don't think that my tax exemption is any big thing: its another way to get
the same benefit I would get if I itemized US-based income as a teacher. Its
been that way since I moved overseas; the only difference is that its easier
to file.

But this NEW thing....thats a different story. Its a harsh tax, without
loopholes or exemptions, that will hit HK workers (and Singapore and
Bermuda) hard. My housing benefit is an invisible benefit: my house in Congo
was nicer than my HK apartment, but because of the inflated rate of HK
apartments, I have to pay a huge percentage of my takehome pay, in excess of
the tax I already pay the HK government, to the US. And the US is the ONLY
NATION on earth that makes its expats pay taxes.

Now, before any of you get all 'I wish my income was sheltered' on me, go
back and read what I wrote. If you earned what I earn, you shouldn't be
paying more than a few thousand dollars a year either. THE TAX SHELTER DOES
NOT GIVE AN ADVANTAGE: IT ONLY LEVEL THE FIELD TO WHAT WE"D HAVE BACK IN THE
US. But if you still think that 'well, if you chose to earn a teacher's
salary, then you have no grounds to complain about not having anything left
after this big tax' then how can you dare challenge RDean's defense of HIS
taxes. He's saying the precise same thing to you: just because you're not
rich, don't bitch about losing a big chunk of your income (forget about
percentages).

OK, thats EOT, because if you still don't get it, I can't help you.

--riverman

And you said it couldn't happen
 

It's the result of a cheap education and making EXTREMELY bad wagers,
one nickel at time...oh, wait...did you mean dollars? Hey, at least in
theory, you might live to 52,397...

I got a shiny new nickel says I know where this exchance is going to
go.



Well, see...you just don't how to put your pittance to work for you...

My pittance does all I ask of it. It doesn't keep me awake at night.
The more interesting and fruitful area of exploration, I think, is why
it, like so many other things, terrifies YOU so badly.

Wolfgang

BOO!

hee, hee, hee.

And you said it couldn't happen
 

On Sun, 21 May 2006 14:25:36 +0800, "riverman" wrote:


"Calif Bill" wrote in message
k.net...


And are not those British taxes deductible, or a credit against US taxes?

Hi Bill (et al),
I wasn't going to discuss this here, because I know that its beyond
understanding of most folks in the states. They hear 'tax exemption' all
their sympathies go out the window, and are replaced with thoughts like 'I
pay my taxes, you should pay yours' and 'gee, I wish I had an $80K
exemption' and they miss the details. Its the inability or unwillingness to
consider those details that enables things like this tax law to get passed
in the first place.

Let me explain the details one time, then I'm EOT because the talk I've seen
here shows me that my frustration is not understood nor sympathized with,
and instead (knowing the history of this forum), people here love to get all
piranha on each other when they see someone truly upset, as I am.

First of all, and speaking only for myself, I'm not getting "piranha" on
you, I'm simply reacting and commenting on what _you_ brought up. First,
you chose to be an expat and the rules were much the same when you chose
it. And there's a possibility that your taxes won't be affected in the
least:

"But under the new system, this tax exemption on housing will be capped
at $11,536, although is some cases the Internal Revenue Service could
adjust it based on geographic differences in the cost of living."

Yes, I realize _could adjust_ and "the IRS" in the same sentence aren't
much comfort, but I'd offer that generally the IRS winds up being, at
the end of day, somewhat fair, either by accident or from external
pressure. Look at per diem rates for travel deductions.

And something else from the article you cited:

"But many Americans abroad protest that it unfairly targets them. The
Joint Committee on Taxation in the U.S. Congress estimated that the new
measures would cost $200 million a year in taxes for the 4.1 million
Americans - excluding military personnel and Foreign Service officers -
living abroad."

That's an average of 50USD per taxpayer, and from the article, it
appears that those in the higher income range with the bigger perq packs
are going to carry the lion's share of the burden.

And there's the "The United States is the only developed country that
imposes worldwide income tax on its citizens working overseas." bit.
First of all, it's misleading. Ask a Brit about working in France or
vice-versa, what with that little slice of heaven, tax-wise. And if
either one fails to properly plan, it can get _really_ ugly. But would
either be considered to be working "overseas" as contemplated by the
article? IAC, citizens of "developed" countries are most certainly
taxed on income earned outside of that developed country and in these
countries, there are much the same complaints as well as suggestions
offered as to how to avoid taxation issues.

One example comes to mind. We are friends with a family whose most
senior living generation were born in eastern Europe of a German father
and an English mother pre-WW2, but went to New Zealand in the late 30s.
The three senior siblings live in NZ, Switzerland, and the US, having
married citizens of those respective countries. The kids (my
generation) began life as NZers, but now live in Belgium (works there,
married and divorced from, but still quite friendly with, a Swiss
citizen), England (single, works worldwide), France (married to a German
citizen, both work in Paris), and Australia (married to a NZer, both
work there). Of the next generation, only one child is of age, and she
grew up in Belgium, was graduated from college in England, and now works
in Japan. I've yet to hear any say they happily paid taxes with a smile
on their face. And we have friends from just about every corner of the
globe, and I've yet to run across anyone, of any socio-economic class,
who feels they are being unfairly undertaxed.

What's the bottom line? For me, it's when someone who has made their
own bed complains that it isn't comfortable AND blames it on someone
else. I know for a fact that a teacher (for example, a US high school
teacher with a Masters in a mid-sized district - "middle of the road")
in the US can retire fairly comfortably with a reasonable bit of
discipline and planning (a regular contribution into an
educational-employee-only TSA, for example) and can, with some serious
discipline and planning, retire a millionaire with an rise in
"lifestyle." If the path you chose precludes this, again, that's on
you, not Bush, the IRS, "rat *******s," or anyone else.

FWIW, Wayne's advice some professional help is good advice and might
be what you need. If you can't afford the fees upfront, perhaps look to
investment-type advisors who make their money when you make yours.
Google up "tax sheltered annuities for educational employees" for ideas.
I realize that TSAs themselves may not be what you need, but it'll give
you a place to start.

TC,
R

And you said it couldn't happen
 

...I'd offer that generally the IRS winds up being, at
the end of day, somewhat fair, either by accident or from external
pressure.

HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! Time after time after
time after time......

How DO you do it? :)

And something else from the article you cited:


"But many Americans abroad protest that it unfairly targets them. The
Joint Committee on Taxation in the U.S. Congress estimated that the new
measures would cost $200 million a year in taxes for the 4.1 million
Americans - excluding military personnel and Foreign Service officers -
living abroad."


That's an average of 50USD per taxpayer...

Average? Uh oh. Hey steeeeeeevieeee!

and from the article, it
appears that those in the higher income range with the bigger perq packs
are going to carry the lion's share of the burden.

Tsk, tsk. One is forced to wonder how the dears bear up under the
strain.

...And we have friends from just about every corner of the
globe,

Yeah? Try telling them you ****ed away the family giblets sometime.
You'll see what "friends" means. :)

and I've yet to run across anyone, of any socio-economic class,
who feels they are being unfairly undertaxed.

Profundity, thy name is dicklet.

What's the bottom line? For me, it's when someone who has made their
own bed complains that it isn't comfortable

One is forced to wonder......have you ever actually SEEN a bed being
made?

Wolfgang
if god didn't want them shot, she wouldn't let ducks sit.

And you said it couldn't happen
 

wrote in message
...
On Sun, 21 May 2006 14:25:36 +0800, "riverman" wrote:

What's the bottom line? For me, it's when someone who has made their
own bed complains that it isn't comfortable AND blames it on someone
else.

I apprecitate that, but it's nonsense in this case, as this isn't the bed I
chose to lie in. I have a retirement strategy, and I'm being very careful
about it. The bed I have been making has been reasonably comfortable, and
has allowed me the same opportunity as any other working american to retire
reasonably. But they changed this tax law midcareer in a manner that
unfairly and seriously impacts certain expat workers, and has significant
impact on our earnings, hence our savings and retirement potential. And it
was a ****up; in an effort to actually target a group of people who were
getting a potentially unbalanced perk (expat execs), this new tax law
blindsides a large portion of people who have a savings potential not
significantly different than if they were stateside. If they were to
simultaneously allow us to claim deductions that stateside workers can
claim: ROTH or other tax-sheltered accounts, itemized deductions on our
mortages, etc, so that we could legally protect ourselves from this tax,
then it would be a fair exchange. But the regular joe, working for an
average wage in a country with exorbitant rental rates is right in the
crosshairs. There are very few of us, which is why we aren't represented in
the "$50 per taxpayer" estimate.

I know for a fact that a teacher (for example, a US high school
teacher with a Masters in a mid-sized district - "middle of the road")
in the US can retire fairly comfortably with a reasonable bit of
discipline and planning (a regular contribution into an
educational-employee-only TSA, for example) and can, with some serious
discipline and planning, retire a millionaire with an rise in
"lifestyle." If the path you chose precludes this, again, that's on
you, not Bush, the IRS, "rat *******s," or anyone else.

The path I chose, and the investments I am allowed to participate in, are
dictated by the tax laws. And if those rat *******s had not changed the
rules midstream, or do not make special compensation for those of us who
weren't being targeted, then I might still be able to stay in HK and work
toward a similar retirement as your friends after 25 years overseas as I
have been planning to do. As it is, an additional $6000 housing tax added to
the $3000 I already pay puts my tax debt at the same level as people in the
US making twice my salary, as they have tax shelters. That's what's bull****
about this: it going to force people to move away from the better-paying
jobs and work in countries where housing is cheap. With lower housing costs
comes lower salaries, and lower savings, which means a worse retirement; it
can change everything. The impact of this new tax to HK workers is very far
reaching; more than any tax proposal I have ever heard of. If this was
passed back home and impacted the average worker like it will impact us
here, there would be armed insurrection. Its on par with removing the
standard and itemized deductions, and jacking the tax tables thousands of
dollars.


FWIW, Wayne's advice some professional help is good advice and might
be what you need. If you can't afford the fees upfront, perhaps look to
investment-type advisors who make their money when you make yours.
Google up "tax sheltered annuities for educational employees" for ideas.
I realize that TSAs themselves may not be what you need, but it'll give
you a place to start.


Yeah, its one definite place to start, and I can afford the fees; I'm not a
charity case. Replanning is absolutely in the works, as is a career rethink.
I don't believe folks realize the impact magnitude of this tax, but its a
reality, and I now have to look hard at how to absorb it into my career
plan. I certainly can't afford to stay in HK, as this tax increase eats up a
gargantuan chunk of what I was putting away for retirement, and puts my
savings potential back to where it was when I was in Congo. But I can't
afford to work for many more years in those lowpaying countries.

I'm not asking for anything from anyone here...I'm just absolutely bull****
that this got passed and at the impact it will have, and wanted to vent. I
understand if the realities of this are too distant for any of you to really
appreciate, but they are for real. And I don't hold out any hope that the
IRS will save the day. I also appreciate that you weren't going piranha on
me, thanks for the sounding board, and I'll let this topic die now.

--riverman

And you said it couldn't happen
 

...The bed I have been making has been reasonably comfortable, and
has allowed me the same opportunity as any other working american to retire
reasonably.

Well, see, about that.....

Not every American has the opportunity to retire reasonably.

Hadn't you heard about poverty and stuff?

...I'm not asking for anything from anyone here...

Ah! O.k., so, no letters to your congressional representatives this
time?

Wolfgang
so much for eot. :)

And you said it couldn't happen
 

On Sun, 21 May 2006 23:07:44 +0800, "riverman" wrote:


wrote in message
.. .
On Sun, 21 May 2006 14:25:36 +0800, "riverman" wrote:

What's the bottom line? For me, it's when someone who has made their
own bed complains that it isn't comfortable AND blames it on someone
else.

I apprecitate that, but it's nonsense in this case, as this isn't the bed I
chose to lie in. I have a retirement strategy, and I'm being very careful
about it. The bed I have been making has been reasonably comfortable, and
has allowed me the same opportunity as any other working american to retire
reasonably. But they changed this tax law midcareer in a manner that
unfairly and seriously impacts certain expat workers,

SNIP

As it is, an additional $6000 housing tax added to
the $3000 I already pay puts my tax debt

As I read it, there isn't anything fixed yet, and knowing how the IRS
works, I'd offer that taking a wait-and-see attitude might be a little
easier on you. OTOH, _IF_ they actually wind up hosing a large section
of expats in situations similar to yours, it would be a different
arrangement than the one you chose, and calling "bull****" then would be
a different story. But until the rules are promulgated, you don't know
what the heck is going to happen. Again, look at the "frequent flyer"
flap and the ending result. I'm can't speak for everyone and every
company, but when the dust settled, I think everyone was, well...willing
to let it lie as something they would live with ("happy" and "tax
collector," be they the IRS or whomever, don't really get on to well in
the same sentence).

SNIP

I'm not asking for anything from anyone here...I'm just absolutely bull****
that this got passed and at the impact it will have, and wanted to vent. I
understand if the realities of this are too distant for any of you to really
appreciate, but they are for real. And I don't hold out any hope that the
IRS will save the day.

Excuse me? Too distant for _anyone_ to understand but you? Where the
hell do you think you are, Pluto? And what do you think you're doing
that sets you so far apart from _anyone_ that _no one_ else could
understand? This is part of that attitude that gets any potential
sympathy washed away, but hey, like I said, it's your choice...

TC,
R

And you said it couldn't happen
 

"riverman" wrote in message ...

I'm just reacting because I'm feeling betrayed by my government again,
and bull**** about how damn hard it is to get ahead in this freaking life,
and I'm talking to my primary community since I don't live in the US,
surrounded by neighbors and friends.

Sure, someone sat in their office and said "let's screw Myron, after all
he's a liberal and low paid school teacher living abroad. He can;t hurt us."

Cannibals, and zero tax bill if you lived in the US?

Welcome to the real world where the wealthiest, the poorest, and every one
in between has some kind of worry. Look on the bright side too, since you
live at a low income level, you won;t need as much to retire on plus you;re
still young enough to come back to the states and qualify for a teaching
pension should you so desire.

At the end of the day, you're harping about something that your
comprehension of is seriously lacking. Whatever it is you teach do it well
but leave the tax code, retirements, and **** to the experts on your behalf.
I sat down and read some of the new law last night as one of the folks I
filed an extension for is subject to the AMT (at a total income of 85K per
year!) and refreshed my memory on someother things IRS like. You're ****ing
and moaning and making it sound like it worse than it really is. Will you
have to pay some taxes you don't pay now? Probably. Can you and your
employer think out of the box and find a way in your situation legally and
ethically? Probably.

You've got a good "woe is me" or "holier than thou" attitude until someone
calls bull**** on you, get over it and get professional financial help.

And you said it couldn't happen
 

Seriously Myron, you just post stuff like this to give Wayne K a
chubby, right? g
--
Charlie...
www.chocphoto.com

And you said it couldn't happen
 

Charlie Choc wrote:
Seriously Myron, you just post stuff like this to give Wayne K a
chubby, right? g

LMAO.

Good one, Choc.

--
Ken Fortenberry

And you said it couldn't happen
 

"Charlie Choc" wrote in message
oups.com...
Seriously Myron, you just post stuff like this to give Wayne K a
chubby, right? g
--
Charlie...
www.chocphoto.com

FY Choc

And you said it couldn't happen
 

Wayne Knight wrote:
"riverman" wrote in message ...

I'm just reacting because I'm feeling betrayed by my government again,
and bull**** about how damn hard it is to get ahead in this freaking life,
and I'm talking to my primary community since I don't live in the US,
surrounded by neighbors and friends.

Sure, someone sat in their office and said "let's screw Myron, after all
he's a liberal and low paid school teacher living abroad. He can;t hurt us."

Cannibals, and zero tax bill if you lived in the US?

Welcome to the real world where the wealthiest, the poorest, and every one
in between has some kind of worry. Look on the bright side too, since you
live at a low income level, you won;t need as much to retire on plus you;re
still young enough to come back to the states and qualify for a teaching
pension should you so desire.

At the end of the day, you're harping about something that your
comprehension of is seriously lacking. Whatever it is you teach do it well
but leave the tax code, retirements, and **** to the experts on your behalf.
I sat down and read some of the new law last night as one of the folks I
filed an extension for is subject to the AMT (at a total income of 85K per
year!) and refreshed my memory on someother things IRS like. You're ****ing
and moaning and making it sound like it worse than it really is. Will you
have to pay some taxes you don't pay now? Probably. Can you and your
employer think out of the box and find a way in your situation legally and
ethically? Probably.

You've got a good "woe is me" or "holier than thou" attitude until someone
calls bull**** on you, get over it and get professional financial help.

Aww, comon, Wayne. Tell me how you really feel. :-)

OK, OK, so I'm panicking. No argument there...I hate when really big
blips like this come on the radar screen. FWIW, there was a meeting
this weekend with the school super, some board members and most of the
senior American staff, and the consensus was:
a) don't panic yet. We don't know all the details, but
b) this is probably going to be bigger than we realize
c) and if the implementation is what it looks like it will be, the
enrollment in the school will probably drop about 20-25% and the
majority of senior US staff will leave in the next 2 years.
d) but wait and see how the IRS accommodates places like HK first.

So their take on the potential impact is similar to mine, and their
advice is similar to yours. Fair enough. The sky might not be falling
quite yet.

--riverman