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Wet golf with living biological golf balls has officially come to
colorado. Needless to say I'l not be sending my dues to the Colorado Troutmasters or was that Tournaments Unlimited this year. How any organization can simultaneously promote flyfishing competition while pretending to understand the word "wild" (and even emblazen this word on license plate bling) is entirely beyond my capacity to understand. There are so many things wrong with this it's not even funny. I wonder how they would feel about paint ball hunting deer? I'd sure like to have a conversation with someone trying to explain the difference to me. http://www.nationalflyfishingchampio...ion_rules.html Which is in direct conflict with the rules of fishing in Colorado which prohibit contests on moving water (see paragraph 8). http://wildlife.state.co.us/NR/rdonl...shbrochure.pdf Eventually all things merge in to one and a golf match runs through it. TBone |
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Willi wrote: wrote: Wet golf with living biological golf balls has officially come to colorado. Needless to say I'l not be sending my dues to the Colorado Troutmasters or was that Tournaments Unlimited this year. How any organization can simultaneously promote flyfishing competition while pretending to understand the word "wild" (and even emblazen this word on license plate bling) is entirely beyond my capacity to understand. There are so many things wrong with this it's not even funny. I wonder how they would feel about paint ball hunting deer? I'd sure like to have a conversation with someone trying to explain the difference to me. http://www.nationalflyfishingchampio...ion_rules.html Which is in direct conflict with the rules of fishing in Colorado which prohibit contests on moving water (see paragraph 8). http://wildlife.state.co.us/NR/rdonl...shbrochure.pdf Eventually all things merge in to one and a golf match runs through it. TBone Fishing contests like this are CLEARLY in violation of the 2006 Colorado DOW regulations. I emailed several people at Colorado TU, and the Colorado DOW. I'll be interested to see what, if any, response I get. PS How's the competition Bass fishing going Tim? Got any holes in one? Willi FWIW - I talked with a gentleman today who was fishing the Platte during the contest. In the morning he was told by one judge that there would be a contest but who was otherwise polite but pretty much told them to scat. Later on as more judges arrived they became more and more rude. They were surly and intimidating. The regulation is also clear on this...on still waters, where approval for a contest has been granted, fishing MUST stay open to the public during the contest. Next year I'm rocking the ****ers. TBone |
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wrote: Willi wrote: wrote: Wet golf with living biological golf balls has officially come to colorado. Needless to say I'l not be sending my dues to the Colorado Troutmasters or was that Tournaments Unlimited this year. How any organization can simultaneously promote flyfishing competition while pretending to understand the word "wild" (and even emblazen this word on license plate bling) is entirely beyond my capacity to understand. There are so many things wrong with this it's not even funny. I wonder how they would feel about paint ball hunting deer? I'd sure like to have a conversation with someone trying to explain the difference to me. http://www.nationalflyfishingchampio...ion_rules.html Which is in direct conflict with the rules of fishing in Colorado which prohibit contests on moving water (see paragraph 8). http://wildlife.state.co.us/NR/rdonl...shbrochure.pdf Eventually all things merge in to one and a golf match runs through it. TBone Fishing contests like this are CLEARLY in violation of the 2006 Colorado DOW regulations. I emailed several people at Colorado TU, and the Colorado DOW. I'll be interested to see what, if any, response I get. PS How's the competition Bass fishing going Tim? Got any holes in one? Willi FWIW - I talked with a gentleman today who was fishing the Platte during the contest. In the morning he was told by one judge that there would be a contest but who was otherwise polite but pretty much told them to scat. Later on as more judges arrived they became more and more rude. They were surly and intimidating. The regulation is also clear on this...on still waters, where approval for a contest has been granted, fishing MUST stay open to the public during the contest. Next year I'm rocking the ****ers. TBone Heroic. Gosh. Wolfgang |
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wrote:
Willi wrote: wrote: Wet golf with living biological golf balls has officially come to colorado. Needless to say I'l not be sending my dues to the Colorado Troutmasters or was that Tournaments Unlimited this year. How any organization can simultaneously promote flyfishing competition while pretending to understand the word "wild" (and even emblazen this word on license plate bling) is entirely beyond my capacity to understand. There are so many things wrong with this it's not even funny. I wonder how they would feel about paint ball hunting deer? I'd sure like to have a conversation with someone trying to explain the difference to me. http://www.nationalflyfishingchampio...ion_rules.html Which is in direct conflict with the rules of fishing in Colorado which prohibit contests on moving water (see paragraph 8). http://wildlife.state.co.us/NR/rdonl...shbrochure.pdf Eventually all things merge in to one and a golf match runs through it. TBone Fishing contests like this are CLEARLY in violation of the 2006 Colorado DOW regulations. I emailed several people at Colorado TU, and the Colorado DOW. I'll be interested to see what, if any, response I get. PS How's the competition Bass fishing going Tim? Got any holes in one? Willi FWIW - I talked with a gentleman today who was fishing the Platte during the contest. In the morning he was told by one judge that there would be a contest but who was otherwise polite but pretty much told them to scat. Later on as more judges arrived they became more and more rude. They were surly and intimidating. The regulation is also clear on this...on still waters, where approval for a contest has been granted, fishing MUST stay open to the public during the contest. Next year I'm rocking the ****ers. TBone "I appreciate your concerns, and will try to respond briefly to them. First, with regard to fishing regulations, the actual DOW regulations limit fishing contests using marked/tagged fish; we coordinated with DOW to ensure that the National Fly Fishing Championships were consistent with their regulations and indeed had DOW represented on the event steering committee to ensure communication and compliance. The event was strictly catch-and-release, and public anglers were not excluded from the areas used (all of the areas we used for venues had that as a requirement). The event did not violate any DOW regulations. The more general question – why would TU be involved in this – the answer is three-fold. First, is educational value. The event provided a forum from which we could build greater awareness about fly fishing and conservation. For example, as part of the competition we had stringent gear-cleaning protocols in place to ensure that exotic species like mud snails and whirling disease were not spread; this was included in some print and TV coverage of the event and will help raise angler awareness about what they as individuals can do to follow this example. The event also included a Conservation Symposium with displays and speakers from various agencies, conservation groups, etc. – creating a platform for public education on those issues. Second, is volunteer recruitment. The event drew in around 100 volunteers, many of whom had not been active volunteers in the past but plan to be involved in the future. Third, is fundraising. While this year’s event will have a very modest net, it has the potential to raise significant dollars for conservation. For example, the Jackson Hole One-Fly event raises $300,000 per year for conservation, and while we aren’t expecting to reach that level we should be able to raise significant dollars for conservation. The participants in this event were class individuals with a real dedication to fly fishing and to conservation. It was an amateur, Olympic-style event with no money on the line, only pride and the opportunity to represent the U.S. at the World Championships later this summer. If your concept of competitive fishing is based on what you see with things like professional bass fishing, this event is nothing like that. Certainly events like this aren’t for everyone, but it is not contrary to our mission for conserving, protecting, and restoring Colorado’s trout habitats. I hope this helps answer some of your questions, and thank you for taking the time to write." I re wrote him quoting the following part of the regs from printed version we get with our licenses and the downloadable one from the DOW website.: "Fishing contests not permitted on streams, rivers, other flowing water or Gold Medal Water. Contests for trout are permitted only on waters with more than 200 surface acres and managed as a catchable fishery. All regulations apply. Public fishing areas must stay open to free public fishing regardless of contest fee or other charges. Commercial and private lakes licensed by DOW are exempt." This is part of what one guy from CO TU emailed me back: "On the regulations – the description in the regulations brochure does not match the actual regulations themselves (see DOW website: http://wildlife.state.co.us/NR/rdonl...390/0/Ch01.pdf) –the actual regulation adopted by the Colorado Wildlife Commission reads:" So the webpage he sent me has regs concerning contests that are different from what was published in our printed regs and the downloadable one on their website! Note the date it was changed, probably close to when they applied. Still sucks though. I also wrote to the members of the Wildlife Commission. Willi |
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Wolfgang wrote:
Heroic. Gosh. Wolfgang Pathetic Golly Willi |
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Willi wrote: Wolfgang wrote: Heroic. Gosh. Wolfgang Pathetic Golly Willi Do you like what you're turning in to? You're mad. I can tell. Probably because you have latterly figured out (not, if I may indulge in a bit of self-flattery, without a bit of help from your humble servant) what your choice of friends says about you. Well, that's done. The important question is, "What's to be done about it NOW?" Oh, I can make suggestions, but when all is said and done, the decision really is yours........all yours. Just remember, nobody should have to go through what you are.....and nobody really does. Wolfgang um......on the other hand, you probably deserve it. :) |
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Wolfgang wrote:
Willi wrote: Wolfgang wrote: Heroic. Gosh. Wolfgang Pathetic Golly Willi Do you like what you're turning in to? Thanks for asking, that's really sweet. I can honestly say that I'm pretty happy with the changes I've made in the last couple years. I quit smoking after 35 years of smoking. I've started exercising and I'm in the best shape I've been in at least 25 years. I've been working less and spending more time with people in my life. I feel good. Again, thanks for asking Willi |
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Willi wrote:
wrote: Willi wrote: wrote: Wet golf with living biological golf balls has officially come to colorado. Needless to say I'l not be sending my dues to the Colorado Troutmasters or was that Tournaments Unlimited this year. How any organization can simultaneously promote flyfishing competition while pretending to understand the word "wild" (and even emblazen this word on license plate bling) is entirely beyond my capacity to understand. There are so many things wrong with this it's not even funny. I wonder how they would feel about paint ball hunting deer? I'd sure like to have a conversation with someone trying to explain the difference to me. http://www.nationalflyfishingchampio...ion_rules.html Which is in direct conflict with the rules of fishing in Colorado which prohibit contests on moving water (see paragraph 8). http://wildlife.state.co.us/NR/rdonl...shbrochure.pdf Eventually all things merge in to one and a golf match runs through it. TBone Fishing contests like this are CLEARLY in violation of the 2006 Colorado DOW regulations. I emailed several people at Colorado TU, and the Colorado DOW. I'll be interested to see what, if any, response I get. PS How's the competition Bass fishing going Tim? Got any holes in one? Willi FWIW - I talked with a gentleman today who was fishing the Platte during the contest. In the morning he was told by one judge that there would be a contest but who was otherwise polite but pretty much told them to scat. Later on as more judges arrived they became more and more rude. They were surly and intimidating. The regulation is also clear on this...on still waters, where approval for a contest has been granted, fishing MUST stay open to the public during the contest. Next year I'm rocking the ****ers. TBone "I appreciate your concerns, and will try to respond briefly to them. First, with regard to fishing regulations, the actual DOW regulations limit fishing contests using marked/tagged fish; we coordinated with DOW to ensure that the National Fly Fishing Championships were consistent with their regulations and indeed had DOW represented on the event steering committee to ensure communication and compliance. The event was strictly catch-and-release, and public anglers were not excluded from the areas used (all of the areas we used for venues had that as a requirement). The event did not violate any DOW regulations. [bone] Well, I'd have to disagree. Public anglers that went there to catch a few trout in what relative solitude they can find were 'practically' excluded by this event. That the CDOW supports this now is a pretty dramatic shift in policy. That the 'real' regs aren't printed just ****ES ME OFF. As far as I'm concerned, if we don't give a rip about the accuracy of the regs, the statewide bag and possession limit is still 8. The more general question - why would TU be involved in this - the answer is three-fold. First, is educational value. The event provided a forum from which we could build greater awareness about fly fishing and conservation. [bone] This is the worst point. To use a competitive event, with the likes of Jack "A cash flow runs through it and Jackson Hole flyfishing retailer" Dennis, as anything resembling the intrinsic soul of flyfishing is not an education I want conducted on public waters. They can hold this thing on a private pond if they want. For example, as part of the competition we had stringent gear-cleaning protocols in place to ensure that exotic species like mud snails and whirling disease were not spread; this was included [bone] BFD. It's the law. in some print and TV coverage of the event and will help raise angler awareness about what they as individuals can do to follow this example. [bone] It will also bring more people transferring more mud snails. The event also included a Conservation Symposium with displays and speakers from various agencies, conservation groups, etc. - creating a platform for public education on those issues. [bone] You do not need a fishing competition as a draw. Just get some chicks in daisy duke shorts and Dale Jr. jerseys. Second, is volunteer recruitment. [bone] Seems like these guys have a problem at HQ. This is a simple marketing program that does not need to be paid for by making a slut out of the noble pastime of hunting for fish. The event drew in around 100 volunteers, many of whom had not been active volunteers in the past but plan to be involved in the future. Third, is fundraising. While this year's event will have a very modest net, it has the potential to raise significant dollars for conservation. For example, the Jackson Hole One-Fly event raises $300,000 per year for conservation, and while we aren't expecting to reach that level we should be able to raise significant dollars for conservation. [bone] Be real. The revenue from the flyfishing industry is huge. The sales tax from the town of Basalt rivals the ski town of Snowmass Village. See how many of these guys will drive down next weekend just to hand out pamphlets. The participants in this event were class individuals with a real dedication to fly fishing and to conservation. It was an amateur, Olympic-style event with no money on the line, only pride and the opportunity to represent the U.S. at the World Championships later this summer. If your concept of competitive fishing is based on what you see with things like professional bass fishing, this event is nothing like that. [bone] Oh, it has plenty of similarities. Do you really think that you are 'superior' to the bass sportsman? That kind of grosses me out. Certainly events like this aren't for everyone, but it is not contrary to our mission for conserving, protecting, and restoring Colorado's trout habitats. [bone] Respectfully disagree. Teaching people that fishing for a living animal competively is at about the same moral high ground as competive paint ball hunting for deer. I hope this helps answer some of your questions, and thank you for taking the time to write." [bone] Well, the response you got was better than mine! I re wrote him quoting the following part of the regs from printed version we get with our licenses and the downloadable one from the DOW website.: "Fishing contests not permitted on streams, rivers, other flowing water or Gold Medal Water. Contests for trout are permitted only on waters with more than 200 surface acres and managed as a catchable fishery. All regulations apply. Public fishing areas must stay open to free public fishing regardless of contest fee or other charges. Commercial and private lakes licensed by DOW are exempt." This is part of what one guy from CO TU emailed me back: "On the regulations - the description in the regulations brochure does not match the actual regulations themselves (see DOW website: http://wildlife.state.co.us/NR/rdonl...390/0/Ch01.pdf) -the actual regulation adopted by the Colorado Wildlife Commission reads:" So the webpage he sent me has regs concerning contests that are different from what was published in our printed regs and the downloadable one on their website! Note the date it was changed, probably close to when they applied. [bone] Nope. The minute I read this, I recall that this is what I was told when I moaned about the Lyons event either a year ago or two. Still sucks though. I also wrote to the members of the Wildlife Commission. Willi |
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wrote:
Willi wrote: wrote: Willi wrote: wrote: Wet golf with living biological golf balls has officially come to colorado. Needless to say I'l not be sending my dues to the Colorado Troutmasters or was that Tournaments Unlimited this year. How any organization can simultaneously promote flyfishing competition while pretending to understand the word "wild" (and even emblazen this word on license plate bling) is entirely beyond my capacity to understand. There are so many things wrong with this it's not even funny. I wonder how they would feel about paint ball hunting deer? I'd sure like to have a conversation with someone trying to explain the difference to me. http://www.nationalflyfishingchampio...ion_rules.html Which is in direct conflict with the rules of fishing in Colorado which prohibit contests on moving water (see paragraph 8). http://wildlife.state.co.us/NR/rdonl...shbrochure.pdf Eventually all things merge in to one and a golf match runs through it. TBone Fishing contests like this are CLEARLY in violation of the 2006 Colorado DOW regulations. I emailed several people at Colorado TU, and the Colorado DOW. I'll be interested to see what, if any, response I get. PS How's the competition Bass fishing going Tim? Got any holes in one? Willi FWIW - I talked with a gentleman today who was fishing the Platte during the contest. In the morning he was told by one judge that there would be a contest but who was otherwise polite but pretty much told them to scat. Later on as more judges arrived they became more and more rude. They were surly and intimidating. The regulation is also clear on this...on still waters, where approval for a contest has been granted, fishing MUST stay open to the public during the contest. Next year I'm rocking the ****ers. TBone "I appreciate your concerns, and will try to respond briefly to them. First, with regard to fishing regulations, the actual DOW regulations limit fishing contests using marked/tagged fish; we coordinated with DOW to ensure that the National Fly Fishing Championships were consistent with their regulations and indeed had DOW represented on the event steering committee to ensure communication and compliance. The event was strictly catch-and-release, and public anglers were not excluded from the areas used (all of the areas we used for venues had that as a requirement). The event did not violate any DOW regulations. [bone] Well, I'd have to disagree. Public anglers that went there to catch a few trout in what relative solitude they can find were 'practically' excluded by this event. That the CDOW supports this now is a pretty dramatic shift in policy. That the 'real' regs aren't printed just ****ES ME OFF. As far as I'm concerned, if we don't give a rip about the accuracy of the regs, the statewide bag and possession limit is still 8. The more general question - why would TU be involved in this - the answer is three-fold. First, is educational value. The event provided a forum from which we could build greater awareness about fly fishing and conservation. [bone] This is the worst point. To use a competitive event, with the likes of Jack "A cash flow runs through it and Jackson Hole flyfishing retailer" Dennis, as anything resembling the intrinsic soul of flyfishing is not an education I want conducted on public waters. They can hold this thing on a private pond if they want. For example, as part of the competition we had stringent gear-cleaning protocols in place to ensure that exotic species like mud snails and whirling disease were not spread; this was included [bone] BFD. It's the law. in some print and TV coverage of the event and will help raise angler awareness about what they as individuals can do to follow this example. [bone] It will also bring more people transferring more mud snails. The event also included a Conservation Symposium with displays and speakers from various agencies, conservation groups, etc. - creating a platform for public education on those issues. [bone] You do not need a fishing competition as a draw. Just get some chicks in daisy duke shorts and Dale Jr. jerseys. Second, is volunteer recruitment. [bone] Seems like these guys have a problem at HQ. This is a simple marketing program that does not need to be paid for by making a slut out of the noble pastime of hunting for fish. The event drew in around 100 volunteers, many of whom had not been active volunteers in the past but plan to be involved in the future. Third, is fundraising. While this year's event will have a very modest net, it has the potential to raise significant dollars for conservation. For example, the Jackson Hole One-Fly event raises $300,000 per year for conservation, and while we aren't expecting to reach that level we should be able to raise significant dollars for conservation. [bone] Be real. The revenue from the flyfishing industry is huge. The sales tax from the town of Basalt rivals the ski town of Snowmass Village. See how many of these guys will drive down next weekend just to hand out pamphlets. The participants in this event were class individuals with a real dedication to fly fishing and to conservation. It was an amateur, Olympic-style event with no money on the line, only pride and the opportunity to represent the U.S. at the World Championships later this summer. If your concept of competitive fishing is based on what you see with things like professional bass fishing, this event is nothing like that. [bone] Oh, it has plenty of similarities. Do you really think that you are 'superior' to the bass sportsman? That kind of grosses me out. Certainly events like this aren't for everyone, but it is not contrary to our mission for conserving, protecting, and restoring Colorado's trout habitats. [bone] Respectfully disagree. Teaching people that fishing for a living animal competively is at about the same moral high ground as competive paint ball hunting for deer. I hope this helps answer some of your questions, and thank you for taking the time to write." [bone] Well, the response you got was better than mine! I re wrote him quoting the following part of the regs from printed version we get with our licenses and the downloadable one from the DOW website.: "Fishing contests not permitted on streams, rivers, other flowing water or Gold Medal Water. Contests for trout are permitted only on waters with more than 200 surface acres and managed as a catchable fishery. All regulations apply. Public fishing areas must stay open to free public fishing regardless of contest fee or other charges. Commercial and private lakes licensed by DOW are exempt." This is part of what one guy from CO TU emailed me back: "On the regulations - the description in the regulations brochure does not match the actual regulations themselves (see DOW website: http://wildlife.state.co.us/NR/rdonl...390/0/Ch01.pdf) -the actual regulation adopted by the Colorado Wildlife Commission reads:" So the webpage he sent me has regs concerning contests that are different from what was published in our printed regs and the downloadable one on their website! Note the date it was changed, probably close to when they applied. [bone] Nope. The minute I read this, I recall that this is what I was told when I moaned about the Lyons event either a year ago or two. Still sucks though. I also wrote to the members of the Wildlife Commission. Willi This is the letter I wrote to the division. Comments? I'll let you know the response, if any. Bone Dear Sir, I complained to the division 3 years ago about a competitive flyfishing event on the St. Vrain near the town of Lyons being in direct violation of section 8 of the colorado fishing regulations. At that time, I was told that there was a discrepency between the 'real' regulations and the 'printed' version. Just recently I complained about the International Fly Fishing competition on the So. Platte and was told the exact same thing. Since I view the regulations as the law and now I am told that they are not, please understand that, as far as I'm concerned the state wide bag limit is 20 trout and the regulations are printed in error. Is this an OK assumption or can you tell me why you maintain two different sets of regulations? Thank you, |
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Wolfgang wrote: wrote: This is the letter I wrote to the division. Comments? I'll let you know the response, if any. Bone Dear Sir, I complained to the division 3 years ago about a competitive flyfishing event on the St. Vrain near the town of Lyons being in direct violation of section 8 of the colorado fishing regulations. At that time, I was told that there was a discrepency between the 'real' regulations and the 'printed' version. Just recently I complained about the International Fly Fishing competition on the So. Platte and was told the exact same thing. Since I view the regulations as the law and now I am told that they are not, please understand that, as far as I'm concerned the state wide bag limit is 20 trout and the regulations are printed in error. Is this an OK assumption or can you tell me why you maintain two different sets of regulations? Thank you, Well, there, that should fix everything. Wolfgang Mr. Seibeneich, I noticed that you spend a great deal of your time making smart assed replies to most everyone's posts relating to fly fishing and that I can not find a single non-smart assed reply from you in dozens and dozens of recent entries. You seem to make claims to being a very literate person and sophisticated author of smart assed replies but I'm curious if you can organize your thoughts in a coherent fashion as to actually 'contribute' to a debate or discussion on subjects related to this group. Therefore I would like to ask a sincere question: Will you please post your rationale on the differences between competitive fly fishing as a way to promote angler education and competitive paint ball hunting for deer to teach hunters the ethics of that sport, or, perhaps you could wax eloquently on why it is important for the regulations printed in a state fishing regulation to accurately reflect the laws of the controlling division. Thank you for your thoughtful reply, Your pal, Halfordian Golfer A Cash Flow Runs Through It |
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On 14 Jun 2006 19:44:24 -0700, wrote:
[snipped] In TU's response to Willi, the author, in justification for a competitive fly fishing competition said, and I quote: "The event provided a forum from which we could build greater awareness about fly fishing and conservation. For example, as part of the competition we had stringent gear-cleaning protocols in place to ensure that exotic species like mud snails and whirling disease were not spread;" Yet the organizers of this event decided the best place to hold it would be in Boulder Colorado: http://www.nationalflyfishingchampio...modations.html Ironically, Boulder Colorado is one of the few places where there is a NZ mud snail closure in Colorado. http://www.anstaskforce.gov/hyannis/...Draft_4-06.pdf In fact, the Boulder Outlook Hotel is a 7 minute drive from the only enforced fishing closure in Colorado: http://wildlife.state.co.us/NR/rdonl...ulderCreek.pdf Then, from that 'base camp' the fishermen went off to the So. Platte, Waterton, Clear Lake, the Big Thompson and finally Lily Lake in Rocky Mountain National Park. Let that sink in a minute. Imagine organizing a flyfishing event aimed at the education of people for the purpose of preventing the spreading a pathogen, right in the center of the worst area of the infestation and then having them travel to pristine, unaffected, waters. Further, when I asked TU about this I received a terse response, and I quote: "You are so poorly informed about this activity a response is not worth my time. Since the DOW, USFS, and numerious public and private conservation groups were actively involved and supported this activity your complaint will not get too far." I might be picking nits, but this response, from a national conservation organization, suggesting that someone is 'too misinformed to be worthy of informing' seems hardly in keeping with an 'education' ideal of that organization. Lest you think this is the reponse of a harassing or accusational tone on my part, I present it below my signature, which is, Your pal, Halfordian Golfer "It is impossible to catch and release a wild trout" Dear Sir, It came to my attention that your organization is promoting competetive fishing on moving waters in the state of Colorado where this is expressly prohibited. In addition to being morally repugnant this is in clear violation of standards for harassment of wildlife as well as willful wasting of game meat as some percentage of mortality is inevitible. I'd like to understand your position on this so that I can act accordingly. I have already registered a stern complaint with the CDOW. If you assume the position that this is 'educational' then I have to ask what is being taught? Unlimited pure catch and release is as greedy as the worst poacher in my estimation and closer to a 'trophy' hunting model than the angler that catches a brace to consume but then quits. I am old enough to remember when the quality of the angling experience had to do with fishing in solitude for a wild animal and was not measured by social rewards and crowds on a stream. Sincerely, [deleted] Not that it matters much, but I totally agree with you on this one, Tim. /daytripper |
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wrote in message ... Why anyone supports or cares about the ****ers is less of a mystery as much as a source of sad bemusement, and can be attributed to little more what those supporters imagine is the cache of having a silly-assed sticker on their silly-assed yuppiemobile. If you actually support _real_ conservation, as opposed to self-centered "conservation," you are at odds with TU nationals. You're entitled to your opinion. While I agree that some things like the issue Tim is disdaining are rather, to be polite-foolish; TU as a whole is promoting and funding signficant research, habitat protection, and attempting to help find consensus amond disparate groups to further conservation causes as they apply to fresh cold water salmonid species. I used to wonder where Tim's disdain for TU came from until I came across some Colorado TU groups. I'll admit to them feeding a bad caricature IMO. But until something better comes along thats the national group trout fisherman to work with. Besides I happen to like my TU sticker and License plate frame on my yuppie mobile. Wayne How come when a TU member drives it, its a yuppiemobile, when you drive it, its a suburban btw? |
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wrote:
On 14 Jun 2006 19:44:24 -0700, wrote: Further, when I asked TU You (and Willi) seem to naively assume that TU (nationals) is now anything more than a bunch of fundraising whores currently spreading their legs for Troutbucks. What they once were is long lost, and while a few local chapters might actually _do_ something, TU as a national organization is no better than the NRA, the Red Cross, or any other for-profit business run under the guise of a non-profit group, and done so without the expenses, such as taxes, and headaches of other businesses. Why anyone supports or cares about the ****ers is less of a mystery as much as a source of sad bemusement, and can be attributed to little more what those supporters imagine is the cache of having a silly-assed sticker on their silly-assed yuppiemobile. If you actually support _real_ conservation, as opposed to self-centered "conservation," you are at odds with TU nationals. I actually agree with rdean about this, the saints be praised. I was a charter member of TU when I was about 15 years old (a member of the NRA also, after I bought my first rifle -- a .22 pump Winchester). Now I won't have anything to do with either one of them. The local chapters of TU probably do some good works. -- Cut "to the chase" for my email address. |
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On Wed, 14 Jun 2006 23:57:19 -0400, "Wayne Knight"
wrote: wrote in message .. . Why anyone supports or cares about the ****ers is less of a mystery as much as a source of sad bemusement, and can be attributed to little more what those supporters imagine is the cache of having a silly-assed sticker on their silly-assed yuppiemobile. If you actually support _real_ conservation, as opposed to self-centered "conservation," you are at odds with TU nationals. You're entitled to your opinion. While I agree that some things like the issue Tim is disdaining are rather, to be polite-foolish; TU as a whole is promoting and funding signficant research, habitat protection, and attempting to help find consensus amond disparate groups to further conservation causes as they apply to fresh cold water salmonid species. If they are so wonderful, why do they get a pass when they are taking a dump on Colorado, its regs, and the people who supposedly own the land? "TU as a whole?" Please. TU IS a hole. I used to wonder where Tim's disdain for TU came from until I came across some Colorado TU groups. I'll admit to them feeding a bad caricature IMO. But until something better comes along thats the national group trout fisherman to work with. If the water is in some form of danger, it ought to be closed to fishing and other forms of public access. TU wants to "conserve" for its own interests, just like the NRA wants to support gun rights for its own interests. The largest TU chapter in US is (or was) in Austin-****in-Texas, long known and respected as a premiere trout fishing destination. And yeah, before anyone goes there, they do dump truckloads of trout into the Guadalupe, but that don't make it a trout stream...the Peabodys have ducks, but AFAIK, no DU chapters... Besides I happen to like my TU sticker and License plate frame on my yuppie mobile. Wayne How come when a TU member drives it, its a yuppiemobile, when you drive it, its a suburban btw? I use Suburbans, trucks, and such for their utility value alone, I don't "drive" one as a car, and none has a bumper sticker pimping anything, nor do I trade them in on new models every coupla-three years. Ever tried to pull and launch a large boat, pull a cargo/cattle/horse trailer, or haul a flatbed loaded with a tractor down a wet dirt road, or similar with a Prius or whatever the ecoyuppiemobiles are called? TC, R |
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rw wrote:
wrote: On 14 Jun 2006 19:44:24 -0700, wrote: Further, when I asked TU You (and Willi) seem to naively assume that TU (nationals) is now anything more than a bunch of fundraising whores currently spreading their legs for Troutbucks. What they once were is long lost, and while a few local chapters might actually _do_ something, TU as a national organization is no better than the NRA, the Red Cross, or any other for-profit business run under the guise of a non-profit group, and done so without the expenses, such as taxes, and headaches of other businesses. Why anyone supports or cares about the ****ers is less of a mystery as much as a source of sad bemusement, and can be attributed to little more what those supporters imagine is the cache of having a silly-assed sticker on their silly-assed yuppiemobile. If you actually support _real_ conservation, as opposed to self-centered "conservation," you are at odds with TU nationals. I actually agree with rdean about this, the saints be praised. I was a charter member of TU when I was about 15 years old (a member of the NRA also, after I bought my first rifle -- a .22 pump Winchester). Now I won't have anything to do with either one of them. The local chapters of TU probably do some good works. I know how many hours I put in every year doing cold-water convervation and I'm pretty proud of what I've gotten done. I work closely with about a dozen local people and another 2-3 dozen from around the State and I know how dedicated to the cause they are and how many hours they put in. I'll be spending the next two days supervising a crane operator who's removing a rock pile from a collapsed bridge abutment in my favorite river (near the 'secret spot'). Pioneer Valley TU raised the funds for this locally and did 2 years of work to get the permits in line. You and rdean can kiss my ass. -- Stan Gula http://gula.org/roffswaps (oh wait, you said 'probably', so I apologize for my harshness) (and if anybody's interested: http://gula.org/pvtu/swift.pdf) |
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wrote in message oups.com... While you stretch my patience beyond what is reasonable, I will try again. Can you please, please try make a coherent comment.... Seriousness? You want seriousness? O.k. I cannot for the life of me understand why I am the only person here willing to grant you the insignificant boon you ask for. Selfishness? Laziness? A profound inability to see the obvious? Who knows. Unfortunately, there is nothing either of us can do about it and, let's face it, as a crazed desert ascetic messiah you are......well, let's just say you tend toward the corpulent end of the spectrum.....and I only have two hands and I'm not getting any younger. There is just no way I can hold you up AND drive the nails without making a bit of a mess of the job. Wolfgang |
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"rw" wrote in message m... wrote: ...And by the way, screw you, Wolfgang. Hee, hee, hee. I get bonus points every time you cry. :) Wolfgang |
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On Thu, 15 Jun 2006 12:30:08 GMT, "Stan Gula"
wrote: rw wrote: wrote: On 14 Jun 2006 19:44:24 -0700, wrote: Further, when I asked TU You (and Willi) seem to naively assume that TU (nationals) is now anything more than a bunch of fundraising whores currently spreading their legs for Troutbucks. What they once were is long lost, and while a few local chapters might actually _do_ something, TU as a national organization is no better than the NRA, the Red Cross, or any other for-profit business run under the guise of a non-profit group, and done so without the expenses, such as taxes, and headaches of other businesses. Why anyone supports or cares about the ****ers is less of a mystery as much as a source of sad bemusement, and can be attributed to little more what those supporters imagine is the cache of having a silly-assed sticker on their silly-assed yuppiemobile. If you actually support _real_ conservation, as opposed to self-centered "conservation," you are at odds with TU nationals. I actually agree with rdean about this, the saints be praised. I was a charter member of TU when I was about 15 years old (a member of the NRA also, after I bought my first rifle -- a .22 pump Winchester). Now I won't have anything to do with either one of them. The local chapters of TU probably do some good works. I know how many hours I put in every year doing cold-water convervation and I'm pretty proud of what I've gotten done. I work closely with about a dozen local people and another 2-3 dozen from around the State and I know how dedicated to the cause they are and how many hours they put in. I'll be spending the next two days supervising a crane operator who's removing a rock pile from a collapsed bridge abutment in my favorite river (near the 'secret spot'). Pioneer Valley TU raised the funds for this locally and did 2 years of work to get the permits in line. You and rdean can kiss my ass. And you can kiss mine. I specifically said that I realized locals might actually _do_ something, and you're one of the people I had in mind with the comment. It's much like the Red Cross, it's not the volunteers in the trenches that are the problem - even if they do nothing, they are at least harmless, it's the national business organization. Go back and reread your post. I don't see a single mention of anything really related to "Trout Unlimited" as a national org. What I see is local, locally, local. TC, R |
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JStraw Being new to this group I am astounded at the hate mongering JStraw that goes on. ... So as opposed to being incredibly hateful, JStraw do you think you could stay on point and respond intelligently JStraw so we can benefit from a good debate. Having been around for some years, I would strongly recommend the following strategy: enjoy what is good in here (there is _a lot_ of expertise in this group), ignore what you don't want to see. Trying to fight against or teach how to behave would be, among other things, entertainment for some. -- Jarmo Hurri Commercial email countermeasures included in header email address. Remove all garbage from header email address when replying, or just use . |
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Scott Seidman wrote: wrote in news:1150339464.034149.224770 @g10g2000cwb.googlegroups.com: Further, when I asked TU about this I received a terse response, and I quote: "You are so poorly informed about this activity a response is not worth my time. Since the DOW, USFS, and numerious public and private conservation groups were actively involved and supported this activity your complaint will not get too far." Can you pop a name and addy to go along with that quote? I'm interested in determining if it came from the local, state, or national level. Before you ask, no, TU Chapters are not necessarily consistant with State Councils, and State Councils are not always entirely in step with National. Howdy Scott, I was just responding to the "Media and Promotion" contact link from which is current. I'm not really sure who he is except for the information from that page. http://www.nationalflyfishingchampio...committee.html I'm as upset with the CDOW for maintaining two sets of regs but, as Media and Promotion contact, perhaps TU would be better served with someone a little more diplomatic. It's one thing for a licensed angler [with a particular beff] to be grumpy, another thing entirely for the organizers and sponsors, IMO, to be unsympathetic to that grump. Best regards, TBone |
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"JStraw" wrote in message oups.com... Wolfgang wrote: wrote in message oups.com... While you stretch my patience beyond what is reasonable, I will try again. Can you please, please try make a coherent comment.... Seriousness? You want seriousness? O.k. I cannot for the life of me understand why I am the only person here willing to grant you the insignificant boon you ask for. Selfishness? Laziness? A profound inability to see the obvious? Who knows. Unfortunately, there is nothing either of us can do about it and, let's face it, as a crazed desert ascetic messiah you are......well, let's just say you tend toward the corpulent end of the spectrum.....and I only have two hands and I'm not getting any younger. There is just no way I can hold you up AND drive the nails without making a bit of a mess of the job. Wolfgang Being new to this group I am astounded at the hate mongering that goes on. When folks like TBone TRY to stay on topic, regardless of his/her opinion, dudes like Wolfgang reply with almost anything but substance. So as opposed to being incredibly hateful, do you think you could stay on point and respond intelligently so we can benefit from a good debate. After all, this about fly fishing right? Wow, this is a red-letter day, it seems. --riverman (done packing, waiting for tomorrow....) |
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William Claspy typed:
On 6/15/06 10:01 AM, in article , "JStraw" wrote: After all, this about fly fishing right? What, is this new guy week or something? :-) Nothing wrong with what you're saying JStraw, but think of it like the first time you went to your wife's family reunion. (and if you aren't married, just bear with me :-) You probably didn't barge into Uncle Sam and Grandpa Joe's annual tete-a-tete about "tastes great" and "less filling", right? I mean, the argument is meaningless and it is never going to be resolved, but they go at it anyhow, as they've done since the world began. Some of the folks here have been doing their own peculiar dance together for many, many, many years. Most have personalities that are unlikely to change because you want to stick to "fly fishing only" regs. When it comes to ROFF, think blackberry jam. You gots to take the seeds with the sweet. After a while, you forget the seeds are even there. Bill, running out of metaphors I think it's time for a big group hug. Is 11:52 EDT okay with everyone? -- TL, Tim ------------------------- http://css.sbcma.com/timj |
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JStraw wrote:
snip After all, this about fly fishing right? JStraw as in Jack Straw from Wichita ? If so, welcome fellow Deadhead, there's a handful of us in this loony bin. Read this: http://www.cs.nmsu.edu/~jcook/ROFF/ And pay particular attention to the section titled: Are you thinking of complaining about all the non-flyfishing talk? HTH -- Ken Fortenberry |
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On Thu, 15 Jun 2006 10:44:27 -0400, William Claspy
wrote: On 6/15/06 10:01 AM, in article .com, "JStraw" wrote: After all, this about fly fishing right? What, is this new guy week or something? :-) Nothing wrong with what you're saying JStraw, but think of it like the first time you went to your wife's family reunion. (and if you aren't married, just bear with me :-) You probably didn't barge into Uncle Sam and Grandpa Joe's annual tete-a-tete about "tastes great" and "less filling", right? I mean, the argument is meaningless and it is never going to be resolved, but they go at it anyhow, as they've done since the world began. Some of the folks here have been doing their own peculiar dance together for many, many, many years. Most have personalities that are unlikely to change because you want to stick to "fly fishing only" regs. When it comes to ROFF, think blackberry jam. You gots to take the seeds with the sweet. After a while, you forget the seeds are even there. Bill, running out of metaphors Well, now...maybe you need to look into, oh, I dunno, Shakespeare or Ambrose Bierce or Oscar Wilde or Mencken or de Rochefoucauld before your next reply...do you happen to have access to any books? HTH (no, really, I do...of course, I know full well that some will say otherwise, but they lie like dogs...on rugs...), R ....and maybe some Machiavelli and Kesey, too... |
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Tim J. wrote:
I think it's time for a big group hug. Is 11:52 EDT okay with everyone? Ewwwwww, that's a visual I sure didn't need this early in the day. Please save the horror stories for /after/ Happy Hour so I don't have to confront them while sober. -- Ken Fortenberry |
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wrote in message ups.com... ...I'm as upset with the CDOW for maintaining two sets of regs but, as Media and Promotion contact, perhaps TU would be better served with someone a little more diplomatic. Ah, yes! Someone more like.....well, you, perhaps? It's one thing for a licensed angler [with a particular beff] to be grumpy, another thing entirely for the organizers and sponsors, IMO, to be unsympathetic to that grump. Hm.....trade **** for honey, huh? So, how's that working for you? Wolfgang |
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"JStraw" wrote in message oups.com... Being new to this group I am astounded at the hate mongering that goes on. It's o.k., I've gotten used to it. Mind you, I don't mean to suggest that I'd rebuff an offer of help in combating it, but I long ago ceased to expect any such. At any rate, whining about it is just another distraction. If you don't intend to help, at least try to shut up and go away. When folks like TBone TRY to stay on topic, regardless of his/her opinion, dudes like Wolfgang reply with almost anything but substance. Tit for tat. Show me substance, I'll show you more. So as opposed to being incredibly hateful, do you think you could stay on point and respond intelligently so we can benefit from a good debate. Nice try, but it won't do any good. I tried asking nicely a long time ago. You see the result. After all, this about fly fishing right? Well, I've just reviewed your whole post and, no, it doesn't look like it's about fly fishing. Wolfgang |
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On 15 Jun 2006 11:19:25 -0700, "Wayne Knight"
wrote: wrote: If the water is in some form of danger, it ought to be closed to fishing and other forms of public access. TU wants to "conserve" for its own interests, First and foremost, when I say "TU," I mean TU national, not every local TU chapter. That said... Huh? It was established to work for conservation, so I would think it's own interest would be in conservation. It's not meant to be a national fishing club. Maybe it wasn't meant to be, but that's what it has become - "pay to play" fishing and a fund-raising contest. Many of the people at TU national are professional fund-raisers. Look at the resumes - fishing, trout or otherwise, is usually mentioned as an afterthought, after all the career stuff, and nothing to indicate any real knowledge, experience, or most importantly, love of fishing. It's just, "A whole bunch of stuff.... In addition to croquet and cocktail parties, Bob, Sue, or whomever likes to fish..." Regardless a troubled stream does not have to be closed to need some intervention. Why not? For all I know, the guy Tim was talking to was a local CO TU guy, like I said they are different. But just because some misguided fools in CO belong to the same group I do doesn't make the group ineffective nor inefficient. I understand why certain groups have taken offense to what they consider a *liberal* bent in the national group. Conservation lobbying tends to come from the left side more than the right, so be it. They do seem to be taking a more balanced and consensus driven approach lately I know guys that got mad at TU becasue they didn't think enough was being done for their favorite stream. Exactly. It has nothing to do with true conservation, it has to do with squeaky wheels getting tax-free grease, and getting it twice, once in the non-profit status and again in managing to coop "public" water for a relative few to use the way they want. I'm a fisherman, with flyfishing as a subset, and I think "FFing only" on "public" water is ridiculous. If it's _public_ water, folks ought to be allowed to use cane poles and power bait to catch and eat their own damned fish, and if the water can't handle it, keep everyone off. That's among the reasons I think "public" water is a joke - it ain't _public_, it's "public." We have choices, you can choose to not be a member, I will continue to choose to be one until I at least get an alternative. The largest TU chapter in US is (or was) in Austin-****in-Texas, long known and respected as a premiere trout fishing destination. And yeah, before anyone goes there, they do dump truckloads of trout into the Guadalupe, but that don't make it a trout stream... All that means is lots of people in Austin decided joining TU would be a good thing. I agree on the Guadalupe but TU isn't paying for that, all those texans buying trout stamps are paying for that state program. There's any number of streams in the south east and other places getting trout trucked in where they don't belong and for the most part, it's not for the benefit of TU members. (fwiw, I disagree with trucking them in too) the Peabodys have ducks, but AFAIK, no DU chapters... But Memphis does. I use Suburbans, trucks, and such for their utility value alone, I don't "drive" one as a car, and none has a bumper sticker pimping anything, nor do I trade them in on new models every coupla-three years. Ever tried to pull and launch a large boat, pull a cargo/cattle/horse trailer, or haul a flatbed loaded with a tractor down a wet dirt road, or similar with a Prius or whatever the ecoyuppiemobiles are called? I don't drive a Toyota so I wouldn't know it's towing capacity. I drive a six year old BMW which had a higher towing capacity than my sister's Tahoe at the time. And it's towed some things but I have no need to tow a tractor and or horses. You drive your suburban because you think you have a good reason. No, I use such when I have a good reason. Otherwise, I don't, just like I don't use a hammer to tighten bolts or try to, just for T-Bone, OBROFF: use a big game rod on a small trout stream. As long as what ever you classify a yuppie pays for his/her vehicle, even if just to go to Nieman Marcus, what sweat off your balls is it? None whatsoever, assuming they drive to Neiman's and keep their cakehole shut. But if they jump up in my face about conservation and right-wing this and that, I'll call them a yuppie hypocrite. Why did you buy a BMW SUV? Or really, any SUV? Even the name "SUV" is pretty goofy-yuppie - what the hell is one supposed to do with a "sport utility vehicle?" Haul crates of footballs and golfclubs? How much "utility" duty do these things actually do? We have trucks, Wagoneers, Suburbans, and cars. The first three are working vehicles, tools, and the fourth is transportation for people. For a time, I did drive a Wagoneer as a dual purpose vehicle, but it got more working use than transportation use. And when I'm in places like the Northeast, where public transport is not only good but easier, I don't want to be hassled with a vehicle, my own, rented, or a taxi, when buses, subways, trains, etc. are more accessible, cheaper, and more-or-less regular. You're a smart guy, and if the others are to be believed pretty well off and get some perks from that status. I do? When? I'll take all the perqs I can get, and if I've missed any, I'd like to know so as to claim them. Why you have to put down others for aspiring to a certain status or lifestyle. It ain't your life and maybe it even results in revenue to the family business. "Aspiring to a certain status or lifestyle..."? WTF? If you think having a BMW SUV provides any status, more's the pity. Why would you think having this or that material possession would impress someone who can go buy one (or ten) just like it if they desired, but has made their choice to either do so or not to do so? Old money doesn't buy **** like that because of its status, they buy **** like that because it's convenient, they have no need to price shop, and/or because they only need to do it once every ten-plus years. If a Chevy is more convenient, that's what they buy. There is simply no way to impress someone who is comfortable with their money with your money because they just aren't concerned about either. Now, if we're talking about the nouveau riche, that's a whole 'nuther thing, and if you aspire to that, well, that's why there's chocolate and vanilla, I guess... TC, R |
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TBone wrote:
I see the boys made "The Stretch" above "The Unnamed Reservoir" all C&R this year. Old Rusty'd be a poacher in that stretch now-a-days. Nope. I checked the 2006 regs, which are unchanged for that particular stretch of water. There is a nearby section that has been c&r for years, but that's not where we were. -- Rusty Hook Laramie, Wyoming |
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