Western Clave - Slough Creek
 

I found this. "Colter's Run" aptly describes the trip up to the Second
Meadow on Slough.
http://www.ultimatemontana.com/secti...oltersrun.html
Frank Reid

Western Clave - Slough Creek
 

Frank Reid wrote:
I found this. "Colter's Run" aptly describes the trip up to the Second
Meadow on Slough.
http://www.ultimatemontana.com/secti...oltersrun.html
Frank Reid


Yeah, but did Colter ever find Fawn Lake? :-)

I thought the cross-country detour to the second meadow via
what's-its-name lake was pretty cool. That lake could be good to fish
earlier in the season before it weeds up. IMO, you shouldn't have been
using waders and you shouldn't have carried so much stuff, but that's
your business.

Those damn flies were the only bad thing about the trip.

--
Cut "to the chase" for my email address.

Western Clave - Slough Creek
 

Frank Reid wrote:
I found this. "Colter's Run" aptly describes the trip up to the Second
Meadow on Slough.
http://www.ultimatemontana.com/secti...oltersrun.html
Frank Reid

"Colter's journey took him to...near what is now Cooke City...but his
accounts of the...oddities sounded so farfetched that he was the butt
of many a mountain man's jokes for years afterward...."

Perhaps the first......but certainly not the last.....to plant his ass
at a campground near Cooke City and become a long standing joke.

Wolfgang
who's got a shiny new nickel says colter never saw fawn lake.
:)

Western Clave - Slough Creek
 

I thought the cross-country detour to the second meadow via
what's-its-name lake was pretty cool. That lake could be good to fish
earlier in the season before it weeds up. IMO, you shouldn't have been
using waders and you shouldn't have carried so much stuff, but that's
your business.

Those damn flies were the only bad thing about the trip.

True, then again, I had not gotten the full info on the extent of the
trip. Lotta miss communication, a lot on my part. Just didn't ask.
(Insert whine of your choice here). I WILL be more prepared for the
next trip (and I won't run out of my meds before the next trip). Also,
I will not be using a pack designed for a 10 year old.
I would have loved to have a float tube on that lake. Looked like a
lot of fun.
I figured out how to stop the flies. As soon as I borrowed the head
net from Danl, the wind and rain came up and the flies went away. I
done scared 'em by going into proactive defense.
Good fission with ya.
Frank Reid

Western Clave - Slough Creek
 

"Frank Reid" wrote in message
ps.com...
I thought the cross-country detour to the second meadow via
what's-its-name lake was pretty cool. That lake could be good to fish
earlier in the season before it weeds up. IMO, you shouldn't have been
using waders and you shouldn't have carried so much stuff, but that's
your business.

Those damn flies were the only bad thing about the trip.

True, then again, I had not gotten the full info on the extent of the
trip. Lotta miss communication, a lot on my part. Just didn't ask.
(Insert whine of your choice here). I WILL be more prepared for the
next trip (and I won't run out of my meds before the next trip). Also,
I will not be using a pack designed for a 10 year old.
I would have loved to have a float tube on that lake. Looked like a
lot of fun.
I figured out how to stop the flies. As soon as I borrowed the head
net from Danl, the wind and rain came up and the flies went away. I
done scared 'em by going into proactive defense.
Good fission with ya.
Frank Reid


Get yourself a water purifier bottle too. Got one this year, and it came in
very handy. Worked just fine, and didn't have to carry water with me,
lightening the load significantly.

BTW - thanks much for the Huskers hat. It made one of the shots posted on
Tim's web site (the cutt) and it was very lightweight, and breathable, which
came in handy too with the heat.

Didn't get to fish with you much this year, but I think it had something to
do with your recovery mode. Not sure if I will make 2007 or not. Was
planning on bringing the family next time around but the September date is
impossible due to school. Getting ready to hassle the traveling Clavemeister
on that one...

The Finn

Makela's photos, was Western Clave - Slough Creek
 

Mike Makela ten.tsacmoc@alekamm typed:
snip
It made one of the shots
posted on Tim's web site (the cutt) and it was very lightweight, and
breathable, which came in handy too with the heat.

I hadn't posted the link to Mike's photos yet because I was waiting for
a TR, but I can plop that in later:
http://css.sbcma.com/timj/roffpics/2006_makela_montana/
Very nice photos, Mike.
--
TL,
Tim
---------------------------
http://css.sbcma.com/timj/

Makela's photos, was Western Clave - Slough Creek
 

"Bob Weinberger" wrote in message
news:j4KAg.16$l95.4@trnddc08...

"Tim J." wrote in message
...
http://css.sbcma.com/timj/roffpics/2006_makela_montana/

However the photos labeled " Elk in the Trees" & "Elk in the Trees 2" are
mislabeled. That's a Mule Deer doe in the picture, not an elk.

You better clean up those spectacles Bob...I think that Mule deer buck would
be ****ed if he knew you were calling him a doe... ;)

How's the "O", shaping up after the big run off this spring...?

Tight Lines,
JT

Makela's photos, was Western Clave - Slough Creek
 

"JT" wrote in message
...

You better clean up those spectacles Bob...I think that Mule deer buck
would be ****ed if he knew you were calling him a doe... ;)

How's the "O", shaping up after the big run off this spring...?

Tight Lines,
JT

You're right. That's part of the reason I quit deer hunting some years ago -
only hunt elk now (besides my wife loves elk meat, but dislikes deer meat).
Those little bucks are too hard to pick out in heavy timber.

The "O" has been fairly spotty fishing this year. The fish are still there,
but its been difficult to determine what they may be feeding on at any given
time. Most of the silt and heavy algae growth was cleaned out by the high
water, so most of the bugs that depended on those conditions and provided
consistent hatches (e.g. Callibaetis & Midges) are pretty much gone. The
species of bugs that depend on clean gravel are still recolonizing, and any
given species shows only sporadically. I expect things to stabilize by next
spring & to have excellent fishing conditions.

TL,
Bob Weinberger

Western Clave - Slough Creek
 

"Mike Makela" ten.tsacmoc@alekamm wrote in message
. ..

Get yourself a water purifier bottle too. Got one this year, and it came
in very handy. Worked just fine, and didn't have to carry water with me,
lightening the load significantly.


Works great for me. Never gotten sick (which doesn't really prove anything)
and never have to carry water with me - always have fresh cool water when
needed.

Makela's photos, was Western Clave - Slough Creek
 

"Jonathan Cook" wrote in message
...
Bob Weinberger wrote:

However the photos labeled " Elk in the Trees" & "Elk in the Trees 2" are
mislabeled. That's a Mule Deer doe in the picture, not an elk.

To easterners, it's something with hoofs and horns, so
just start shooting. :-)

Jon.
double :-) for those who missed the first

And I left the gun at home...oh wait, don't own one..

Mike

Makela's photos, was Western Clave - Slough Creek
 

Mike Makela wrote:
"Jonathan Cook" wrote in message
...
Bob Weinberger wrote:

However the photos labeled " Elk in the Trees" & "Elk in the Trees 2" are
mislabeled. That's a Mule Deer doe in the picture, not an elk.

To easterners, it's something with hoofs and horns, so
just start shooting. :-)

Jon.
double :-) for those who missed the first

And I left the gun at home...oh wait, don't own one..

Mike

I've got a couple of loaners.

Wolfgang
yipeeiokiyay!

Western Clave - Slough Creek
 

jeffc wrote:
"Mike Makela" ten.tsacmoc@alekamm wrote in message
. ..

Get yourself a water purifier bottle too. Got one this year, and it came
in very handy. Worked just fine, and didn't have to carry water with me,
lightening the load significantly.



Works great for me. Never gotten sick (which doesn't really prove anything)
and never have to carry water with me - always have fresh cool water when
needed.




I like the water purifier bottles too.

Especially as I've gotten older, I've become more and more of a fan of
lightweight gear. If I'm going to carry it, whether in my vest, on my
back, on my feet etc, I going to look for the lightest things that will
work and I try and keep the gear I carry to a minimal. I've done most
outdoor stuff enough that I have a good feel for what I NEED depending
on how long I'll be out and how far I'm going.

One thing I think many people overlook is what they wear on their feet.
I find light weight shoes, sandals, wading boots etc to be a BIG plus.
IMO, the worst place for extra weight is on your feet.

Willi

Western Clave - Slough Creek
 

Willi wrote:
...IMO, the worst place for extra weight is on your feet.

Colin Fletcher agrees. On the other hand (well, foot, I suppose), the
worst place to get a bruise, cut, scrape, sprain or what have you, is
on your feet.

For heavy duty packing far from the nearest road (say, thirty miles or
more :) I like the protection of thick, tough leather.

Wolfgang

Western Clave - Slough Creek
 

jeffc wrote:
Works great for me. Never gotten sick (which doesn't really prove
anything) and never have to carry water with me - always have fresh cool
water when needed.

I can't recall you ever carry'in more than one bottle of water with you,
even when we do those 10-12 hour fishes on Upper Creek. Of course, I
usually have 5 or 6 bottles to spare :~^ )

Op

Western Clave - Slough Creek
 

"Willi" wrote in message
...

I like the water purifier bottles too.

I want to get me on of them purifier bottles too. I have a PURE "Hiker,"
but its just a micro-filter and not a *purifier*. I am hesitant to drink
water filtered thru it, without boiling the water as well. When Jeff M. and
I did our camp out at the end of April, I would filter us about 2 to 3
gallons and boil several bottles worth for the days fishing. I would just
set the bottles in a feeder stream for several hours to cool them down.

Mr. Miller would simply mix half and half Wild Turkey and stream filtered
water to purify his *drinking* water!

Especially as I've gotten older, I've become more and more of a fan of
lightweight gear.

Oh, if only I could convince myself that I didn't *need* everything from an
extra six pair of sox to 5 canisters of fuel!

If I'm going to carry it, whether in my vest, on my
back, on my feet etc, I going to look for the lightest things that will
work and I try and keep the gear I carry to a minimal. I've done most
outdoor stuff enough that I have a good feel for what I NEED depending
on how long I'll be out and how far I'm going.

Sadly, I don't do enough campin'/fishin' trips to determine what I really
need and what I should leave at home.

One thing I think many people overlook is what they wear on their feet.
I find light weight shoes, sandals, wading boots etc to be a BIG plus.
IMO, the worst place for extra weight is on your feet.

Here's where we differ. I prefer a good heavy pair of leather wadin' boots
with strong ankle support. I figure the extra weight only strengthens my
legs for future fishin' trips.

Op

Willi

Western Clave - Slough Creek
 

Mr. Opus McDopus wrote:
"Willi" wrote in message
...


One thing I think many people overlook is what they wear on their feet.
I find light weight shoes, sandals, wading boots etc to be a BIG plus.
IMO, the worst place for extra weight is on your feet.


Here's where we differ. I prefer a good heavy pair of leather wadin' boots
with strong ankle support. I figure the extra weight only strengthens my
legs for future fishin' trips.

In that case you should consider these for your next fishing trip:

http://www.karatedepot.com/ankle-weights.html

I'm with Willi on this one. An ounce saved on footgear is worth a high
energy multiple of ounces carried on your back. I'm not sure what that
multiple is, but I'll bet it's at least 3:1.

--
Cut "to the chase" for my email address.

Western Clave - Slough Creek
 

"rw" wrote in message
m...
In that case you should consider these for your next fishing trip:

http://www.karatedepot.com/ankle-weights.html

I didn't say I wanted to carry extra weight, just that I like the extra
protection that heavier boots provide.

I'm with Willi on this one. An ounce saved on footgear is worth a high
energy multiple of ounces carried on your back. I'm not sure what that
multiple is, but I'll bet it's at least 3:1.

When I fish, I'm not plannin' on hikin' eight or ten miles with a 50 lb.
back pack, I am fishin' and rock hoppin' It's quite easy to get ones foot
wedged in between rocks on our streams, so the ankle protection is a must,
im my mind.

Op.

Western Clave - Slough Creek
 

Mr. Opus McDopus wrote:
"rw" wrote in message
m...

In that case you should consider these for your next fishing trip:

http://www.karatedepot.com/ankle-weights.html


I didn't say I wanted to carry extra weight, just that I like the extra
protection that heavier boots provide.

I use Simms lightweight high-ankle boots with Aquasteath soles and
removable studs. They're light but kind of expensive. The ankle support
is fine (I've sprained my left ankle numerous times playing tennis --
the ligaments are just about gone) and the soles wear very well on long
hikes, unlike felt. Sometimes I just wear rubber sandals for wet wading
if I know the hiking isn't going to be a problem.

I'm with Willi on this one. An ounce saved on footgear is worth a high
energy multiple of ounces carried on your back. I'm not sure what that
multiple is, but I'll bet it's at least 3:1.


When I fish, I'm not plannin' on hikin' eight or ten miles with a 50 lb.
back pack, I am fishin' and rock hoppin' It's quite easy to get ones foot
wedged in between rocks on our streams, so the ankle protection is a must,
im my mind.

I've fished your North Cakalaky waters. It's down, down, down to the
fishing, and up, up, up back to the rig, in what seems like 110%
humidity. If anything, the hiking is more strenuous per mile than is
typical in the Rocky Mountain West.

--
Cut "to the chase" for my email address.

Western Clave - Slough Creek
 

"Mr. Opus McDopus" wrote in message
...

"Willi" wrote in message
...

I like the water purifier bottles too.

I want to get me on of them purifier bottles too. I have a PURE "Hiker,"
but its just a micro-filter and not a *purifier*. I am hesitant to drink
water filtered thru it, without boiling the water as well. When Jeff M.
and I did our camp out at the end of April, I would filter us about 2 to 3
gallons and boil several bottles worth for the days fishing. I would just
set the bottles in a feeder stream for several hours to cool them down.


I think it's "Pur", but I could be mistaking.
In anycase,
I also own the Pur Hiker, it does filter down to 0.3 microns removing
protozoa and bacteria, but not viruses. It does have an activated carbon
core to remove chemicals and foul tastes. I can see how one could have
purified concerns to boil the water after filtering, however I'm still
taking my chances, and never had a problem so far. I had done a lot of
research on water filters and found the Pur Hiker to be one of the best at
the time, I've had mine for 15 years now, but not sure what's on the market
today. Oh btw, Pur is now taken over by the Swiss company Katadyn, it's the
same filter, just called Katadyn Hiker.
fwiw
-tom

Western Clave - Slough Creek
 

"Mr. Opus McDopus" wrote in message
...

When I fish, I'm not plannin' on hikin' eight or ten miles with a 50 lb.
back pack, I am fishin' and rock hoppin' It's quite easy to get ones foot
wedged in between rocks on our streams, so the ankle protection is a must,
im my mind.

Op.

Agree, ankle protection is a must....
Hiking Boots are one of the most important equipment in backpacking. Support
(ankle), comfort and shoes that are well broken-in. I always double layer
the sock, one coolmax ultrathin sock, and one heavy sock and I also use one
layer of adhesive tape around the ball of the foot for blisters.

We had a gal sprain her angle when she used lightweight running shoes with
no ankle support. She lost her footing on the rocks and we had to carry her
and her pack 2 miles to the ranger station. Lucky she wasn't heavy, but it
was still pretty tough.
few,
-tom

Western Clave - Slough Creek
 

On 8/10/06 10:14 AM, in article , "Tom
Nakashima" wrote:

"Mr. Opus McDopus" wrote in message
...

When I fish, I'm not plannin' on hikin' eight or ten miles with a 50 lb.
back pack, I am fishin' and rock hoppin' It's quite easy to get ones foot
wedged in between rocks on our streams, so the ankle protection is a must,
im my mind.

Op.

Agree, ankle protection is a must....
Hiking Boots are one of the most important equipment in backpacking. Support
(ankle), comfort and shoes that are well broken-in. I always double layer
the sock, one coolmax ultrathin sock, and one heavy sock and I also use one
layer of adhesive tape around the ball of the foot for blisters.

I stopped using liner socks when Smartwool appeared. Those are some sweet
socks.

I'll be hiking in New Hampshire's White Mountains next week. Very rocky.
You can bet I'll be wearing my "heavy" leather boots! Though the boots I
wear now aren't as heavy as the big Galibiers I had back in the day.
Breaking in those bad boys was BRUTAL! What was I thinking? Never did get
around to the Eiger. :-)

My decision making doesn't seem to change over the years either. My current
XC skiing gear is Karhu XCD-GTs (full steel edge) and "Snowfield class"
boots (Karhu Converts). For, basically, Ohio swamp skiing. But I'll be
ready if I ever need to take them up to Crested Butte!

As for wading boots, I have to admit that the pattern continues- I go for
beefier rather than lighter. I generally don't put in too many miles when
on the stream, and I'd rather have the support and the protection.

Kind of like wearing a bike helmet.

:-)

Bill

Western Clave - Slough Creek
 

"William Claspy" wrote in message
...

Agree, ankle protection is a must....
Hiking Boots are one of the most important equipment in backpacking.
Support
(ankle), comfort and shoes that are well broken-in. I always double layer
the sock, one coolmax ultrathin sock, and one heavy sock and I also use
one
layer of adhesive tape around the ball of the foot for blisters.

I stopped using liner socks when Smartwool appeared. Those are some sweet
socks.

I'll be hiking in New Hampshire's White Mountains next week. Very rocky.
You can bet I'll be wearing my "heavy" leather boots! Though the boots I
wear now aren't as heavy as the big Galibiers I had back in the day.
Breaking in those bad boys was BRUTAL! What was I thinking? Never did
get
around to the Eiger. :-)

My decision making doesn't seem to change over the years either. My
current
XC skiing gear is Karhu XCD-GTs (full steel edge) and "Snowfield class"
boots (Karhu Converts). For, basically, Ohio swamp skiing. But I'll be
ready if I ever need to take them up to Crested Butte!

As for wading boots, I have to admit that the pattern continues- I go for
beefier rather than lighter. I generally don't put in too many miles when
on the stream, and I'd rather have the support and the protection.

Kind of like wearing a bike helmet.

:-)

Bill


Nice touch William on the helmet,
you have fun in the White Mountain range.
-tom

Western Clave - Slough Creek
 

Mr. Opus McDopus wrote:
jeffc wrote:

Works great for me. Never gotten sick (which doesn't really prove
anything) and never have to carry water with me - always have fresh cool
water when needed.


I can't recall you ever carry'in more than one bottle of water with you,
even when we do those 10-12 hour fishes on Upper Creek. Of course, I
usually have 5 or 6 bottles to spare :~^ )

Op



heck, when fishing with you, it's like having a mobile convenient mart
along. but, that's jeffc above, not me... i was impressed by willi's
set up. it's clearly the way to go. ought to save you 10 pounds or
more. g

jeff

Western Clave - Slough Creek
 

"jeff" wrote in message
news:Xu7Dg.3371$W01.1364@dukeread08...

heck, when fishing with you, it's like having a mobile convenient mart
along. but, that's jeffc above, not me... i was impressed by willi's set
up. it's clearly the way to go. ought to save you 10 pounds or more. g

jeff

My most sincere apologies Mr. Miller! I just saw the "jeff" and missed the
"c" completely. :~^ (

Is Willi's set-up the filter/bottle combo? If it is, you had better get
one, 'cause if I get one, you may just have to drink stream water and Wild
Turkey unfiltered.

Love,
Op --When we gonna do another fish?--

Western Clave - Slough Creek
 

rw wrote:

I'm with Willi on this one. An ounce saved on footgear is worth a high
energy multiple of ounces carried on your back. I'm not sure what that
multiple is, but I'll bet it's at least 3:1.


It's sort of like the wheels on a bike. You need to pick your feet up
and accelerate them with each step, just to keep your torso moving at a
constant rate. I didn't take much physics but I agree with you for
sure.

Willi's vest weighs like 10 ounces by the way. I'm usually thinking
he forgot everything!

bruce h

Western Clave - Slough Creek
 

Mr. Opus McDopus wrote:

"jeff" wrote in message
news:Xu7Dg.3371$W01.1364@dukeread08...


heck, when fishing with you, it's like having a mobile convenient mart
along. but, that's jeffc above, not me... i was impressed by willi's set
up. it's clearly the way to go. ought to save you 10 pounds or more. g

jeff


My most sincere apologies Mr. Miller! I just saw the "jeff" and missed the
"c" completely. :~^ (

Is Willi's set-up the filter/bottle combo? If it is, you had better get
one, 'cause if I get one, you may just have to drink stream water and Wild
Turkey unfiltered.

i didn't get a good look at it, but i think it's like the one wolfgang
had. pump water into the bottle through a filter system. also, willi
carried lemonade mix and that was quite tasty...

Love,
Op --When we gonna do another fish?--


well, there's the u.p. in september, and graham county in october...
just back from an offshore trip out of ocracoke...

jeff

Western Clave - Slough Creek
 

bruiser wrote:
rw wrote:

I'm with Willi on this one. An ounce saved on footgear is worth a high
energy multiple of ounces carried on your back. I'm not sure what that
multiple is, but I'll bet it's at least 3:1.


It's sort of like the wheels on a bike. You need to pick your feet up
and accelerate them with each step, just to keep your torso moving at a
constant rate. I didn't take much physics but I agree with you for
sure.

I don't contest the point about extra weight on the feet. The energy
cost is well known and has been for a long long time. However,
concerns about support and protection are also valid. I've got
relatively strong legs riding atop not so strong ankles. A stiff
hiking boot is worth a bit of extra weight to me. In addition, my
boots are always pretty well scuffed around the toes and ankles after a
trip in rocky country. I'm pretty sure that tough leather has saved me
from some pretty nasty bruises.

It's a trade off.

Meanwhile, the bicycle analogy may look o.k. at a glance, but it's
wrong. Ideally, ALL of the weight of a bicycle would be in the wheels,
more specifically, on the outer edge of the wheels. It's all about
inertia. There would be a bit of extra energy cost in acceleration,
but the rest of the time it would work in your favor. Of course, this
is not an argument in favor of putting heavier wheels on your
bike......doing so would increase the overall weight. No gain
there......probably......maybe......the dynamics get complicated.
You'd never win a race on a weightless bike.....um.....unless maybe
it's all uphill.

Willi's vest weighs like 10 ounces by the way. I'm usually thinking
he forgot everything!

Or he has really tiny fly boxes, cameras, cheeses, books, binoculars,
bread loaves, hatchets, ropes, carabiners, baked potatoes, water
bottles, spare reels, granola bars, mosquito nets, saws, turkey legs,
knives, chains (hey, you never know when you're going to run into a
freak snow storm, right?) ladders, pineapples, cool looking rocks,
flasks, sandwiches, tupperware, thermos bottle, pot roasts, lawn
chairs, machetes, meatloaf, fuel bottles, hams, stove
and......um........oh yeah, matches. :)

Wolfgang
and some candy bars please.

Western Clave - Slough Creek
 

Wolfgang wrote:
A stiff
hiking boot is worth a bit of extra weight to me.

I can't argue with you there. I pretty much agree.

Ideally, ALL of the weight of a bicycle would be in the wheels,
more specifically, on the outer edge of the wheels.

On that part you're exactly completely wrong. The most important part
of a bike to make lighter is the outer edge of the wheels.

You'd be right if we could ride our bikes in a frictionless vacuum.

bruce h

Western Clave - Slough Creek
 

bruiser wrote:
Wolfgang wrote:
A stiff
hiking boot is worth a bit of extra weight to me.

I can't argue with you there. I pretty much agree.

Ideally, ALL of the weight of a bicycle would be in the wheels,
more specifically, on the outer edge of the wheels.

On that part you're exactly completely wrong. The most important part
of a bike to make lighter is the outer edge of the wheels.

You'd be right if we could ride our bikes in a frictionless vacuum.

bruce h

You'd be right if we were drag racing. :)

Wolfgang
who just can't WAIT for the physicists to jump in!

Western Clave - Slough Creek
 

Because of wind resistance and rolling resistance, a rider must
constantly accelerate a wheel to maintain a constant overall speed. On
top of that, humans pedal a bike with two legs most of the time and I'm
not aware of anyone, including Floyd Landis, that makes perfect circles
with their feet. Every rider is a pedal masher to some extent, which
translates into little accelerations on each pedal stroke.

Lack of wind resistance is more important than weight in a wheel, but,
all things equal, lighter wheels are always better. The ultimate wheel
would have zero wind resistance and zero weight.

Only about 35% of the inertia of a rolling wheel is translated into
rotation anyway.


bruce h

Western Clave - Slough Creek
 

bruiser wrote:
Wolfgang wrote:

A stiff
hiking boot is worth a bit of extra weight to me.


I can't argue with you there. I pretty much agree.


Ideally, ALL of the weight of a bicycle would be in the wheels,
more specifically, on the outer edge of the wheels.


On that part you're exactly completely wrong. The most important part
of a bike to make lighter is the outer edge of the wheels.

You'd be right if we could ride our bikes in a frictionless vacuum.

You guys are both wrong, but Wolfgang is REALLY, REALLY wrong. The
important effect is angular inertia, regardless considerations of a
frictionless vacuum. Light wheels are very important in a performance
bicycle.

I don't know where Wolfgang comes up with this stuff. I suppose he just
pulls it out of his butt. Maybe he's under the false assumption that you
want the greater gyroscopic effect of heavy wheel rims. You don't. I
suppose that if your wheels had zero mass you'd have a problem, but they
don't.

--
Cut "to the chase" for my email address.

Western Clave - Slough Creek
 

Wolfgang wrote:
bruiser wrote:

Wolfgang wrote:

A stiff
hiking boot is worth a bit of extra weight to me.

I can't argue with you there. I pretty much agree.


Ideally, ALL of the weight of a bicycle would be in the wheels,
more specifically, on the outer edge of the wheels.

On that part you're exactly completely wrong. The most important part
of a bike to make lighter is the outer edge of the wheels.

You'd be right if we could ride our bikes in a frictionless vacuum.

bruce h


You'd be right if we were drag racing. :)

Or braking or turning.

--
Cut "to the chase" for my email address.

Western Clave - Slough Creek
 

bruiser wrote:
Because of wind resistance and rolling resistance, a rider must
constantly accelerate a wheel to maintain a constant overall speed.

Who could possibly doubt it?

On
top of that, humans pedal a bike with two legs most of the time and I'm
not aware of anyone, including Floyd Landis, that makes perfect circles
with their feet.

Well, if their feet are firmly attached to the pedals (and I believe
that is much to be desired) then one has to wonder what sort of shape
those pedals describe in making a circuit.

Every rider is a pedal masher to some extent, which
translates into little accelerations on each pedal stroke.

Indubitably.

Lack of wind resistance is more important than weight in a wheel,

Of course.

but,
all things equal, lighter wheels are always better.

Well, that depends on what "all things being equal" means.

The ultimate wheel
would have zero wind resistance and zero weight.

The ultimate bicycle and rider would have zero wind
resistance......well, except in a strong tail wind. Zero weight would
be much worse than useless.

Only about 35% of the inertia of a rolling wheel is translated into
rotation anyway.

Highly variable.....depending on number of factors. Friction is a big
one. Hard, solid rubber tires are faster than pneumatics. Steel rims
are faster yet. Steel rims on a precisely balanced and very rigid
wheel.....well, you get the picture.

Long about now, you're probably wondering how any of the above accords
with what I said in my early post......right? :)

Wolfgang

Western Clave - Slough Creek
 

rw wrote:

You guys are both wrong, but Wolfgang is REALLY, REALLY wrong. The
important effect is angular inertia, regardless considerations of a
frictionless vacuum. Light wheels are very important in a performance
bicycle.

I don't know where Wolfgang comes up with this stuff. I suppose he just
pulls it out of his butt. Maybe he's under the false assumption that you
want the greater gyroscopic effect of heavy wheel rims. You don't. I
suppose that if your wheels had zero mass you'd have a problem, but they
don't.

Hee, hee, hee.

You don't know what I said.

Wolfgang
hee, hee, hee.

Western Clave - Slough Creek
 

rw wrote:
Wolfgang wrote:
bruiser wrote:

Wolfgang wrote:

A stiff
hiking boot is worth a bit of extra weight to me.

I can't argue with you there. I pretty much agree.


Ideally, ALL of the weight of a bicycle would be in the wheels,
more specifically, on the outer edge of the wheels.

On that part you're exactly completely wrong. The most important part
of a bike to make lighter is the outer edge of the wheels.

You'd be right if we could ride our bikes in a frictionless vacuum.

bruce h


You'd be right if we were drag racing. :)

Or braking or turning.

Nope.

Wolfgang
oh, this is going to be SUCH fun! :)

Western Clave - Slough Creek
 

Wolfgang wrote:
(snip)
Long about now, you're probably wondering how any of the above accords
with what I said in my early post......right? :)

Wolfgang

What I'm wondering is how you could possibly be so full of ****.

All other things being equal means "all other things being equal".

Lighter wheels are better than heavier wheels, and faster. Period.

Take it to the extreme. Do you think you could ride faster with wheels
that weighed one ounce or wheels that weighed 300 pounds? Seriously.

bruce h

Western Clave - Slough Creek
 

bruiser wrote:
Wolfgang wrote:

(snip)
Long about now, you're probably wondering how any of the above accords
with what I said in my early post......right? :)

Wolfgang


What I'm wondering is how you could possibly be so full of ****.

All other things being equal means "all other things being equal".

Lighter wheels are better than heavier wheels, and faster. Period.

Take it to the extreme. Do you think you could ride faster with wheels
that weighed one ounce or wheels that weighed 300 pounds? Seriously.

Generations of experience by bicycle racers and designers count as
nothing compared to Wolfgang's intuitive uberintellect.

--
Cut "to the chase" for my email address.

Western Clave - Slough Creek
 

bruiser wrote:
Wolfgang wrote:
(snip)
Long about now, you're probably wondering how any of the above accords
with what I said in my early post......right? :)

Wolfgang

What I'm wondering is how you could possibly be so full of ****.

Really? Are you sure that we aren't slipping over into some kind of
metaphor or something here? I mean, are you actually wondering about
something that any thinking person must realize is impossible or is
this some sort of idiomatic usage? Words DO matter, you see.

All other things being equal means "all other things being equal".

Thus inviting one to ask what that means.

Lighter wheels are better than heavier wheels, and faster. Period.

Better AND faster. O.k., so better doesn't mean faster. Then what
DOES better mean? And what in the world would induce you to believe
that a lighter wheel will spin faster than a heavier one? Or, to put
it another way, WHY will a light wheel spin faster than a heavy one?

Take it to the extreme. Do you think you could ride faster with wheels
that weighed one ounce or wheels that weighed 300 pounds? Seriously.

Seriously? Take a look at my original assertion. Try to figure it
out. Who do you know that rides a 300 pound bicycle.......seriously.

Wolfgang
who, all other things being equal, remains

Wolfgang

Western Clave - Slough Creek
 

rw wrote:
bruiser wrote:
Wolfgang wrote:

(snip)
Long about now, you're probably wondering how any of the above accords
with what I said in my early post......right? :)

Wolfgang


What I'm wondering is how you could possibly be so full of ****.

All other things being equal means "all other things being equal".

Lighter wheels are better than heavier wheels, and faster. Period.

Take it to the extreme. Do you think you could ride faster with wheels
that weighed one ounce or wheels that weighed 300 pounds? Seriously.

Generations of experience by bicycle racers and designers count as
nothing compared to Wolfgang's intuitive uberintellect.

Ah, an authority on the history of bicycle engineering! I KNEW we
wouldn't have to wait long for one to show up.

So, please recount for us the the chronology of experiments in wheel
weight distribution.

Wolfgang
this is just going to keep on getting better and better! :)

Western Clave - Slough Creek
 

Wolfgang wrote:
rw wrote:

Wolfgang wrote:


You'd be right if we were drag racing. :)

Or braking or turning.


Nope.

Braking and turning are accelerations, as is drag racing. With heavy
rims the bicyclist will fight against angular momentum.

You have no physical intuition or even any technical understanding. If
you were wise you'd never approach the topic.

--
Cut "to the chase" for my email address.