Knot to replace Blood Knot?
 

http://www.geocities.com/roo_two/Zeppelin.html

I just tried it on two pieces of 4x, and it seems very strong and is
quite easy to tie. Its not as simple as the Surgeons Knot, but it has
the advantage that it leaves a linear knot, and its much easier than a
Blood Knot.

What do others think...is this a good leader-tippet or tippet-tippet
knot? I wonder if its even worth doing two or more passes through
rather than the one.

--riverman

Knot to replace Blood Knot?
 

riverman wrote:
http://www.geocities.com/roo_two/Zeppelin.html

I just tried it on two pieces of 4x, and it seems very strong and is
quite easy to tie. Its not as simple as the Surgeons Knot, but it has
the advantage that it leaves a linear knot, and its much easier than a
Blood Knot.

What do others think...is this a good leader-tippet or tippet-tippet
knot? I wonder if its even worth doing two or more passes through
rather than the one.

I just tested it against a Surgeon's Knot in Rio 5x. It failed before
the Surgeon's did.

--
Cut "to the chase" for my email address.

Knot to replace Blood Knot?
 

riverman wrote:
http://www.geocities.com/roo_two/Zeppelin.html

I just tried it on two pieces of 4x, and it seems very strong and is
quite easy to tie. Its not as simple as the Surgeons Knot, but it has
the advantage that it leaves a linear knot, and its much easier than a
Blood Knot.

What do others think...is this a good leader-tippet or tippet-tippet
knot? I wonder if its even worth doing two or more passes through
rather than the one.

--riverman

I just did a very non technical test on that knot. I tied it leaving me
with a loop 15 lb. test mono. I stuck a screw drive handle in each end
of the loop and pulled. It snapped at the knot every time. I did the
same test with a 5 turn blood knot. It also snapped at the knot, but
with a significantly higher tension needed. I realize this is about as
basic of a test as you can get, but the difference was enough, that I
could easily feel it.

Most of time I use a double surgeon's knot. It's easy to tie, and if
tied correctly(must be seated evenly), it's close to a 100% knot.

brians

Knot to replace Blood Knot?
 

briansfly wrote:

I just did a very non technical test on that knot. I tied it leaving me
with a loop 15 lb. test mono. I stuck a screw drive handle in each end
of the loop and pulled. It snapped at the knot every time. I did the
same test with a 5 turn blood knot. It also snapped at the knot, but
with a significantly higher tension needed. I realize this is about as
basic of a test as you can get, but the difference was enough, that I
could easily feel it.

An easy way to get an objective comparison between knots is to tie both
knots in one strand of tippet and pull to failure. That's what I did to
compare this knot with a double Surgeon's. The Surgeon's won. (One trial.)

--
Cut "to the chase" for my email address.

Knot to replace Blood Knot?
 

rw wrote:

briansfly wrote:


I just did a very non technical test on that knot. I tied it leaving
me with a loop 15 lb. test mono. I stuck a screw drive handle in each
end of the loop and pulled. It snapped at the knot every time. I did
the same test with a 5 turn blood knot. It also snapped at the knot,
but with a significantly higher tension needed. I realize this is
about as basic of a test as you can get, but the difference was
enough, that I could easily feel it.


An easy way to get an objective comparison between knots is to tie both
knots in one strand of tippet and pull to failure. That's what I did to
compare this knot with a double Surgeon's. The Surgeon's won. (One trial.)

Yup, i've done that too. All I had at my desk was 15 to 40 lb Trilene
Big Game mono(I use this to make my striper leaders). I figured tying it
in a loop would be a lot easier way to break it.

Back to Myron's question about multiple passes on the Zeppelin knot. I
tried it. The knot is very hard to seat properly, and it becomes bulky.
It did seem to have a higher break strength.

brians

Knot to replace Blood Knot?
 

There are three variations of ways to tie a Surgeon's knot that I know
of. The easy and quick way is to make a very large overlap between the
two lines, form a very large loop, and pull the strands through together
with your fingers. This wastes a lot of tippet and leader material,
which I don't like.

A more material-efficient way is to use a relatively small overlap, make
a small loop, and thread the strands through one at a time. This takes a
lot longer.

I've converged on an intermediate method. I make an intermediate size
loop and use my hemostat instead of my fingers to pull the strands
through together.

--
Cut "to the chase" for my email address.

Knot to replace Blood Knot?
 

On 3 Aug 2006 09:34:00 -0700, "riverman" wrote:

I just tried it on two pieces of 4x, and it seems very strong and is
quite easy to tie. Its not as simple as the Surgeons Knot, but it has
the advantage that it leaves a linear knot, and its much easier than a
Blood Knot.

What do others think...is this a good leader-tippet or tippet-tippet
knot? I wonder if its even worth doing two or more passes through
rather than the one.

I use a tool on all the knots I tie. Otherwise, I have trouble with
my sore and stiff fingers. I use the double (sometimes triple)
surgeons knot and have very few, if any, failures. The best part
about using a tool (besides giving my fingers a break) is that I can
tie the knots much faster than most folks can - not that there is a
race....... it's just easier to use the tool.

Knot to replace Blood Knot?
 

What Tool???
Sunny_B

"Dave LaCourse" wrote in message
...
On 3 Aug 2006 09:34:00 -0700, "riverman" wrote:

I just tried it on two pieces of 4x, and it seems very strong and is
quite easy to tie. Its not as simple as the Surgeons Knot, but it has
the advantage that it leaves a linear knot, and its much easier than a
Blood Knot.

What do others think...is this a good leader-tippet or tippet-tippet
knot? I wonder if its even worth doing two or more passes through
rather than the one.

I use a tool on all the knots I tie. Otherwise, I have trouble with
my sore and stiff fingers. I use the double (sometimes triple)
surgeons knot and have very few, if any, failures. The best part
about using a tool (besides giving my fingers a break) is that I can
tie the knots much faster than most folks can - not that there is a
race....... it's just easier to use the tool.

Knot to replace Blood Knot?
 

On Thu, 03 Aug 2006 19:23:00 GMT, "Sunny_B"
wrote:

What Tool???
Sunny_B

If it has a name, I have long ago forgotten it. It is the brass tool
demonstrated at the fly shows. To tie the clinch knot, thread the
fly, make a loop, stick the tool in the loop and twist around the loop
5 or 6 times, then reach through the loop with the tool, grasp the
bitter end of the tippet and pull it through the looop. Release the
tool, wet the knot and pull tight.

For the double surgeon's knot, make a loop with the end of the leader
and one end of the tippet held together. Reach through the loop and
make two (or three) twists. Then, grab the longest end of the tippet
and the short end of the leader with the tool, pull completely through
the loop. Tighten by pulling on all four parts of the knot (leader
and tippet, short ends of leader and tippet).

The same knots can be tied with your forceps using the instructions
above. If I lose my tying tool (every couple of years or so), I use
my forceps.

There are other knots that can be tied with this tool, but the two
mentioned above are all I need.

Dave

Knot to replace Blood Knot?
 

"Dave LaCourse" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 03 Aug 2006 19:23:00 GMT, "Sunny_B"
wrote:

What Tool???
Sunny_B

If it has a name, I have long ago forgotten it.

Can you take it picture of it or find it on the web...we would like to see
it.
-tom

Knot to replace Blood Knot?
 

On Thu, 3 Aug 2006 13:04:54 -0700, "Tom Nakashima"
wrote:

Can you take it picture of it or find it on the web...we would like to see
it.

Here is one made of plastic and stainless steel.

http://www.knottying.com/

The top of the yellow plastic is spring loaded and slides down
revealing a jaw on the tip of the stainless steel end, used to grasp
the line and pull it through the loops of either a clinch knot or a
double surgeon's knot.

I prefer my all brass model, but the plastic one works just as well.
And, with a little practice, so does your forceps.

Dave

Knot to replace Blood Knot?
 

"Dave LaCourse" wrote in message
...
Here is one made of plastic and stainless steel.

http://www.knottying.com/

The top of the yellow plastic is spring loaded and slides down
revealing a jaw on the tip of the stainless steel end, used to grasp
the line and pull it through the loops of either a clinch knot or a
double surgeon's knot.

I prefer my all brass model, but the plastic one works just as well.
And, with a little practice, so does your forceps.

Dave

Thanks Dave, looks good, the yellow tool that is, might be kindda hard to
tie knots with the Weedless Heavyweight Charger Lure
-tom

Knot to replace Blood Knot?
 

On Thu, 3 Aug 2006 13:57:49 -0700, "Tom Nakashima"
wrote:

might be kindda hard to
tie knots with the Weedless Heavyweight Charger Lure

And cast with anything less than a 10 weight.

d;o)

Knot to replace Blood Knot?
 

riverman wrote:
http://www.geocities.com/roo_two/Zeppelin.html

I just tried it on two pieces of 4x, and it seems very strong and is
quite easy to tie. Its not as simple as the Surgeons Knot, but it has
the advantage that it leaves a linear knot, and its much easier than a
Blood Knot.

What do others think...is this a good leader-tippet or tippet-tippet
knot? I wonder if its even worth doing two or more passes through
rather than the one.

No opinion on efficacy of the knot. However, I did look at the website
and then checked the information presented there against Ashley. I was
mildy suprised to find that the knot wasn't listed under either of the
names given on the website. According to the footnote on the website,
the knot was in use in the 30s (not surprising for a knot named after
Zeppelins). "The Ashley Book of Knots" was first published in 1944.

Another note on the website states that the Zeppelin knot is not the
same thing as the Rigger's bend/Hunter's bend. This one DOES show up
in Ashley under the label 1425A, described on page 260 and illustrated
on the following page. Looking at the illustration, I'm inclined to
agree both with the statement that it is not the same knot and that it
looks pretty much the same upon completion. However, knots are
tricky....that's why they're fun. As any knot maven will declare
(correctly), a knot that differs in any respect.....even in the tiniest
detail.....is a different knot. But....and this is a very important
qualification.....that is true only of the finished product. How you
get there doesn't matter. And two processes that look radically
different in illustration (knots are notoriously difficult to
illustrate anyway) may end up in identical products.

For what it's worth. :)

Wolfgang
is there a topologist in the house?

Knot to replace Blood Knot?
 

riverman wrote:
http://www.geocities.com/roo_two/Zeppelin.html

I just tried it on two pieces of 4x, and it seems very strong and is
quite easy to tie. Its not as simple as the Surgeons Knot, but it has
the advantage that it leaves a linear knot, and its much easier than a
Blood Knot.

What do others think...is this a good leader-tippet or tippet-tippet
knot? I wonder if its even worth doing two or more passes through
rather than the one.

--riverman

Here is a knot for consideration and testing. I never committed the
time to learn to efficiently tie blood knots, but many years ago
started tying a clinch to clinch knot for my tippet connections. The
result is a knot that looks very similar to a blood knot. I can do
this knot very quickly while on stream. Back when I first started
fooling around with this knot, I performed a very simple test comparing
this knot to a true blood knot.

I took two equal lengths of the same X tippet. Two ends were tied
together using a blood knot, the other two ends were tied together
using two clinch knots. I then used two screwdriver handles to stretch
test the leader material/knots. It seemed that the two different knots
broke in alternating order. My conclusion, not overly scientific, was
that the two knots were similar in strength. I've been using nothing
but the clinch to clinch knot ever since.

Give this knot a try, and if anyone does test it against a true blood
knot, please post your results.

Jeff

Knot to replace Blood Knot?
 

Knot to replace Blood Knot?
 

"rw" wrote in message
m...
wrote:

Here is a knot for consideration and testing. I never committed the
time to learn to efficiently tie blood knots, but many years ago
started tying a clinch to clinch knot for my tippet connections.

That's a terrible knot. Did you learn it from Wayno? :-)

It may test strong when freshly tied, but it will soon weaken because of
the tight 180-degree bend around the clinch-knot loops.

Learn the Surgeon's Knot, dude. It's easy.

--
Cut "to the chase" for my email address.

Use it consistently for nymphing (the doubled cinch). Have tested it over
time versus the surgeon's knot variations and it holds up. I also use
Flouro for nymphing which may have an impact. One thing about this doubled
cinch is you have to seat it well, especially when using fluoro, it can slip
if not tied tight. I also do a horrible thing, bite the tags vs cut them,
again to prevent slippage.

Mike

Knot to replace Blood Knot?
 

briansfly wrote:
rw wrote:

briansfly wrote:


I just did a very non technical test on that knot. I tied it leaving
me with a loop 15 lb. test mono. I stuck a screw drive handle in each
end of the loop and pulled. It snapped at the knot every time. I did
the same test with a 5 turn blood knot. It also snapped at the knot,
but with a significantly higher tension needed. I realize this is
about as basic of a test as you can get, but the difference was
enough, that I could easily feel it.


An easy way to get an objective comparison between knots is to tie both
knots in one strand of tippet and pull to failure. That's what I did to
compare this knot with a double Surgeon's. The Surgeon's won. (One trial.)

Yup, i've done that too. All I had at my desk was 15 to 40 lb Trilene
Big Game mono(I use this to make my striper leaders). I figured tying it
in a loop would be a lot easier way to break it.

Back to Myron's question about multiple passes on the Zeppelin knot. I
tried it. The knot is very hard to seat properly, and it becomes bulky.
It did seem to have a higher break strength.

brians

Hmm, which is stronger; a surgeon's or a blood knot? I think factors
other than breaking strength play a role, because if the blood knot is
stronger, then the only reason to use a surgeon's because its easier to
tie. And if the surgeon's is stronger, then the only reason to use a
blood knot is to have a straight connection. If this Zeppelin thing is
weaker than both, but not significantly so, then it might be a good
compromise for, say, small spooky trout where you want a nice straight
leader, and maximum breaking strength is not necessary, but you don't
want to bother tying a blood knot.

I'll try some tests myself to see how it feels. Did you guys find it
significantly weaker? I once thought about using a 'double grapevine'
(also called a 'fisherman's knot') for tippet-tippet, but was astounded
to discover that it had almost no resilience at all! Try it
http://www.aqvi55.dsl.pipex.com/knot.../fisherman.htm

--riverman

Knot to replace Blood Knot?
 

riverman wrote:

Hmm, which is stronger; a surgeon's or a blood knot? I think factors
other than breaking strength play a role, because if the blood knot is
stronger, then the only reason to use a surgeon's because its easier to
tie.

A well-tied Surgeon's is close to 100%. That's tough to beat.

And if the surgeon's is stronger, then the only reason to use a
blood knot is to have a straight connection.

A well-tied Surgeon's makes an excellent straight connection. I didn't
used to think so before I really learned how to tie it. Are you sure
you're tying it correctly?

If this Zeppelin thing is
weaker than both, but not significantly so, then it might be a good
compromise for, say, small spooky trout where you want a nice straight
leader, and maximum breaking strength is not necessary, but you don't
want to bother tying a blood knot.

I think it's significantly weaker. Very significantly. Of course, that
opinion is based on one trial. :-)

--
Cut "to the chase" for my email address.

Knot to replace Blood Knot?
 

On Thu, 03 Aug 2006 21:26:12 -0600, rw
wrote:

well-tied Surgeon's makes an excellent straight connection. I didn't
used to think so before I really learned how to tie it. Are you sure
you're tying it correctly?


I started using a triple Surgeons this year... so far it appears to be
a bit stronger than the standard double surgeons.The trick is to pull
both tag ends through the loop together at the same time, at least
twice I don't have the where with all to tye a blood knot tippet to
leader connection. I mean in the wind, at dusk...just too much
trouble.
I have buddies who swear by the BN. They carry the little tool and
spend huge amounts of prime time tying tippets on...
Harry
troutflies com

Knot to replace Blood Knot?
 

bones wrote:
On Thu, 03 Aug 2006 21:26:12 -0600, rw
wrote:


well-tied Surgeon's makes an excellent straight connection. I didn't
used to think so before I really learned how to tie it. Are you sure
you're tying it correctly?



I started using a triple Surgeons this year...

Why not? It only takes almost 50% more time than a double Surgeons's. :-)

The key to a good Surgeon's Knot is seating it. Both loops should seat
uniformly. Easier said than done.

--
Cut "to the chase" for my email address.

Knot to replace Blood Knot?
 

On Thu, 03 Aug 2006 22:19:02 -0600, rw
wrote:

bones wrote:
On Thu, 03 Aug 2006 21:26:12 -0600, rw
wrote:


well-tied Surgeon's makes an excellent straight connection. I didn't
used to think so before I really learned how to tie it. Are you sure
you're tying it correctly?



I started using a triple Surgeons this year...

Why not? It only takes almost 50% more time than a double Surgeons's. :-)

The key to a good Surgeon's Knot is seating it. Both loops should seat
uniformly. Easier said than done.

Well, if it breaks half as often I'm ahead of the game :-)

I find that if you pull both tags simultaneously through the loop and
pinch in place between thumb and forefinger the set is easier...
moistening the knot prior to the cinch is a must.

Of course, the knot makes not difference if one is into Tarpon strikes
on an 18" trout.:-)


Do a goggle of Surgeon's knot ... it gets interesting :-)




Harry
troutflies com

Knot to replace Blood Knot?
 

On Thu, 03 Aug 2006 22:50:28 -0600, rw
wrote:

bones wrote:

Do a goggle of Surgeon's knot ... it gets interesting :-)

I haven't done that Google search, but my understanding is that surgeons
don't use the Surgeon's Knot. :-)


super glue ...
Harry
troutflies com

Knot to replace Blood Knot?
 

bones wrote:

Do a goggle of Surgeon's knot ... it gets interesting :-)

I haven't done that Google search, but my understanding is that surgeons
don't use the Surgeon's Knot. :-)

--
Cut "to the chase" for my email address.

Knot to replace Blood Knot?
 

"riverman" wrote in news:1154622840.240160.100490
@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com:

http://www.geocities.com/roo_two/Zeppelin.html

I just tried it on two pieces of 4x, and it seems very strong and is
quite easy to tie. Its not as simple as the Surgeons Knot, but it has
the advantage that it leaves a linear knot, and its much easier than a
Blood Knot.

What do others think...is this a good leader-tippet or tippet-tippet
knot? I wonder if its even worth doing two or more passes through
rather than the one.

--riverman



The surgeon's is a fine knot, but the ends don't end up perfectly straight
and in line like they do with a blood knot. Because of this, when I use
the surgeons, its just to tie on one piece of tippet, and not to rebuild a
leader.


--
Scott
Reverse name to reply

Knot to replace Blood Knot?
 

"riverman" wrote in news:1154622840.240160.100490
@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com:

http://www.geocities.com/roo_two/Zeppelin.html

I just tried it on two pieces of 4x, and it seems very strong and is
quite easy to tie. Its not as simple as the Surgeons Knot, but it has
the advantage that it leaves a linear knot, and its much easier than a
Blood Knot.

What do others think...is this a good leader-tippet or tippet-tippet
knot? I wonder if its even worth doing two or more passes through
rather than the one.

--riverman


There's a variation of the blood knot that's much easier to tie. I have no
pictures, but you tie the two lines together with an overhand knot, just to
attach them. You then form a loop with the overhand at the top end and the
double strand at the bottom. You twist the doubled line together five or
six times, leaving a gap in the center through which you pass the overhand
knot, then tighten and trim. You get a blood knot, but both tag ends come
out the same side of the knot

--
Scott
Reverse name to reply

Knot to replace Blood Knot?
 

"riverman" wrote in message
ups.com...

Wolfgang wrote:

No opinion on efficacy of the knot. However, I did look at the website
and then checked the information presented there against Ashley. I was
mildy suprised to find that the knot wasn't listed under either of the
names given on the website. According to the footnote on the website,
the knot was in use in the 30s (not surprising for a knot named after
Zeppelins). "The Ashley Book of Knots" was first published in 1944.

Another note on the website states that the Zeppelin knot is not the
same thing as the Rigger's bend/Hunter's bend. This one DOES show up
in Ashley under the label 1425A, described on page 260 and illustrated
on the following page. Looking at the illustration, I'm inclined to
agree both with the statement that it is not the same knot and that it
looks pretty much the same upon completion. However, knots are
tricky....that's why they're fun. As any knot maven will declare
(correctly), a knot that differs in any respect.....even in the tiniest
detail.....is a different knot. But....and this is a very important
qualification.....that is true only of the finished product. How you
get there doesn't matter. And two processes that look radically
different in illustration (knots are notoriously difficult to
illustrate anyway) may end up in identical products.


Ahh, Ashley's Book of Knots. As a friend of mine stated, if I were ever
incarcerated for life, I'd want a short length of cord and Ashley's to
accompany me to the cell. I think my friend was thinking of using them
to learn knotlore. I figure I could use the rope to escape, and sell
the book for getaway money. But still.

The short cord will do for learning knot lore. For the othr intended use
I'd recommend a long rope. :)

Anyway, I think you err on your 'finished product' statement. I
remember looking through the illustrations and finding several versions
of a square knot (IIRC) with different names. What varied was how they
were tied: one was tied with two loose ends, right over left then left
over right, the other was tied like a sheet bend: bend one cord, and
weave the other through. If I had my copy here, I'd peruse it to find
the examples I am thinking of.

No need to find examples......there are many and (among those who pay
attention to such things) they are well known. However, as you stated, what
varies is the method by which the result is arrived at. In fact, there is
also variation in how, where and when the finished product used. Both of
these circumstances (as well as others....like regional or occupational
preferences, for a couple of examples) can result in different names. But a
knot is not a method or a function.....it is a particular topological
configuration of one or more pieces of string, cord, rope or any other
similar flexible material. The important point is that as long as whatever
method is used results in a precisely identical topological configuration it
IS the same knot, regardless of what use it is put to or what it is called,
and ANY deviation in that configuration is something that is NOT the same
knot, regardless of how it is named or used.

Wolfgang

Knot to replace Blood Knot?
 

"Scott Seidman" wrote in message
.4...
The surgeon's is a fine knot, but the ends don't end up perfectly straight
and in line like they do with a blood knot. Because of this, when I use
the surgeons, its just to tie on one piece of tippet, and not to rebuild a
leader.

Same for me. I tie my leaders with a blood-knot exclusively. I seldom use
the surgeon's knot, even for my tippet section, unless I am tying on 6x on a
dark and cloudy day or I'm tying on 7x tippet.

I have all but stopped buying knotless leaders and tie my own leaders using
Orvis' Leader Formula Booklet. It's a very handy little booklet, with
formulas for many different flyline weights and light and heavy leaders.
The nice thing about tying your own leaders is that you know exactly what to
tie back, if you encounter a break.

Op

Scott