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Nymph theory
Assumption(s)
1) In order to fish nymphs successfully you have to get the fly down (emergers are not nymphs, by this assumption). 2) A heavily weighted fly does not drift naturally (does not work well) 3) Split shot 12-24" up the leader allows the nymph to drift naturally, but strikes become harder to detect. Split shot on the supple part of a leader tends to sink that part of the leader deeper than the fly. So, when the fish takes, the leader has to straighten some before you can feel the strike 4) A sink tip line with a short leader allows the fly drift naturally. But because the weight exists as part of a stiff end section of fly line, the line tends to stay straight, so it is easier to feel the strike (compared to split shot on the supple leader). However, sink tip lines are a pain the butt, and they make it impossible to quickly switch back to dry flies, when conditions call for it. A solution: Stick with the *extra-short* leader, but put it on a dry line. Put an extra-big, pea-sized split shot at the junction of the end of the fly line and the leader butt. It's not a perfect solution. It's not as easy to cast as a sink tip, but it is castable, and you can get the nymph down. You can feel the strikes and you can switch back to a dry fly without changing rods or lines. |
Nymph theory
On 12 Nov 2006 07:27:40 -0800, "salmobytes"
wrote: Assumption(s) 1) In order to fish nymphs successfully you have to get the fly down (emergers are not nymphs, by this assumption). 2) A heavily weighted fly does not drift naturally (does not work well) 3) Split shot 12-24" up the leader allows the nymph to drift naturally, but strikes become harder to detect. Split shot on the supple part of a leader tends to sink that part of the leader deeper than the fly. So, when the fish takes, the leader has to straighten some before you can feel the strike 4) A sink tip line with a short leader allows the fly drift naturally. But because the weight exists as part of a stiff end section of fly line, the line tends to stay straight, so it is easier to feel the strike (compared to split shot on the supple leader). However, sink tip lines are a pain the butt, and they make it impossible to quickly switch back to dry flies, when conditions call for it. A solution: Stick with the *extra-short* leader, but put it on a dry line. Put an extra-big, pea-sized split shot at the junction of the end of the fly line and the leader butt. It's not a perfect solution. It's not as easy to cast as a sink tip, but it is castable, and you can get the nymph down. You can feel the strikes and you can switch back to a dry fly without changing rods or lines. Your solution appears to conflict with Assumption #3. And I'm not sure Assumption #2 is well-founded... /daytripper |
Nymph theory
daytripper wrote: Your solution appears to conflict with Assumption #3. And I'm not sure Assumption #2 is well-founded... Yes there is debate about assumption #2 (that heavily weighted flies deattract fish). There are many believers. Weight at the end of the fly line still sinks that part of the line down lower than the fly. But not as much as split shot on the thin, supple part of the leader. A sink tip with a short leader does work the best, IM-notso-HO, but they're a pain. I've just been experimenting with ways to use dry lines more better, with nymps. |
Nymph theory
"salmobytes" wrote in message oups.com... snip A solution: Stick with the *extra-short* leader, but put it on a dry line. Put an extra-big, pea-sized split shot at the junction of the end of the fly line and the leader butt. It's not a perfect solution. It's not as easy to cast as a sink tip, but it is castable, and you can get the nymph down. You can feel the strikes and you can switch back to a dry fly without changing rods or lines. A solution that I find more satisfactory than any you mentioned, is to use a floating line, standard length leader, and two flies, one of which is weighted and acts as a tool fly. The position of the tool fly relative to the other fly can easily be switched to meet different conditions. It may either be placed at the end of the tippet, with the other fly attached to the tag from the blood knot connecting the leader to the tippet, or their relative positions may be reversed. I usually favor the second option. The tool fly is taken only slightly less often than the other fly. Split shot may be substituted for the tool fly in those jurisdictions where fishing 2 flys at once is prohibited. Bob Weinberger La Grande, OR |
Nymph theory
Bob Weinberger wrote: A solution that I find more satisfactory than any you mentioned, is to use a floating line, standard length leader, and two flies, one of which is weighted and acts as a tool fly. Yes, that's a good rig too. I often use an extra-heavy barbell eyed crazy charlie for that rig........it gets the fly down, it works and I do catch fish on the crazy charlie. All this wondering, on my part, about weight on the leader stems from a camping trip two weeks back, when I fished in crystal clear, slow moving water, with egg flies and weight. When we put split shot next the egg, or used heavy glass beads, we got more refusals than when we used an unweighted egg and split shot on the leader, maybe 24" back up the leader. But when we did that you couldn't so easily feel the strike. We caught most of those fish when we saw a fish move near the orange spot in the crystal clear water. Made me think I've missed a hundred million nymph strikes over the years. When you SEE them hit and still feel no strike, it makes you wonder. |
Nymph theory
"salmobytes" wrote in message oups.com... When we put split shot next the egg, or used heavy glass beads, we got more refusals than when we used an unweighted egg and split shot on the leader, maybe 24" back up the leader. But when we did that you couldn't so easily feel the strike. We caught most of those fish when we saw a fish move near the orange spot in the crystal clear water. Made me think I've missed a hundred million nymph strikes over the years. When you SEE them hit and still feel no strike, it makes you wonder. That can be largely solved by having the weight (tool fly) below (at the end of the tippet) and the target fly on the tag of the blood knot leader- tippet connection. Bob Weinberger La Grande, OR |
Nymph theory
Bob said:
"That can be largely solved by having the weight (tool fly) below (at the end of the tippet) and the target fly on the tag of the blood knot leader- tippet connection." Yeah, maybe. I use that rig when it's windy. I remember a trip from Gray Reef damn down. That trip was the first time I ever fished the Crazy Charlie for weight. My partner Wayne used split shot on the leader and I used the Crazy Charlie. We both used itty bitty blue bead heads on the end. Wayne's a better fisherman than I am, but I was able to keep pace because of all the extra fish I caught on the Crazy Charlie. When it got windy I put the Crazy Charlie out on the end and I was still able to fish, but the strike rate went downhill instantly. You always get the most strikes on the end fly, so you want to put the fly that gets the most strikes out at the end, if at all possible. That rig (the Crazy Charlie used at mid-leader for weight) followed by an itty bitty beadhead, is what I call the Gray Reefer, because of that trip. Works great. But they're a bit hard to keep lit when it's that windy. |
Nymph theory
I'm just rambling now, but I do remember something worth
mentioning. In my last post I mentioned a North Platte Wyoming trip, below Gray Reef damn, where I used a Crazy Charlie for weight and small blue beadhead nymph out on the end. The other rig that really killed them that day (it was mid April and the big rainbows were active on shallow redds) was a Crazy Charlie followed by a small, maybe 2" long red plastic worm from Wallmart. That rig really drove my fishing partner nuts. I remember between the two of us we caught close to two dozen fish at the put-in, before sliding the boat in the water. Those little red rubber worms are hard to find. But they beat the hell out of San Juan worms. Same concept, really. But way more effective. |
Nymph theory
/iss/"salmobytes" wrote in message
oups.com... Bob Weinberger wrote: A solution that I find more satisfactory than any you mentioned, is to use a floating line, standard length leader, and two flies, one of which is weighted and acts as a tool fly. Yes, that's a good rig too. I often use an extra-heavy barbell eyed crazy charlie for that rig........it gets the fly down, it works and I do catch fish on the crazy charlie. All this wondering, on my part, about weight on the leader stems from a camping trip two weeks back, when I fished in crystal clear, slow moving water, with egg flies and weight. When we put split shot next the egg, or used heavy glass beads, we got more refusals than when we used an unweighted egg and split shot on the leader, maybe 24" back up the leader. But when we did that you couldn't so easily feel the strike. We caught most of those fish when we saw a fish move near the orange spot in the crystal clear water. Made me think I've missed a hundred million nymph strikes over the years. When you SEE them hit and still feel no strike, it makes you wonder. And as I get older and for various reasons - I miss even more strikes - the odds are going down for me... What is a Crazy Charlie? Fred |
Nymph theory
I googled it
A Bonefish fly? It would have to be small .. interesting Thanks Fred "Fred Lebow" wrote in message et... /iss/"salmobytes" wrote in message oups.com... Bob Weinberger wrote: A solution that I find more satisfactory than any you mentioned, is to use a floating line, standard length leader, and two flies, one of which is weighted and acts as a tool fly. Yes, that's a good rig too. I often use an extra-heavy barbell eyed crazy charlie for that rig........it gets the fly down, it works and I do catch fish on the crazy charlie. All this wondering, on my part, about weight on the leader stems from a camping trip two weeks back, when I fished in crystal clear, slow moving water, with egg flies and weight. When we put split shot next the egg, or used heavy glass beads, we got more refusals than when we used an unweighted egg and split shot on the leader, maybe 24" back up the leader. But when we did that you couldn't so easily feel the strike. We caught most of those fish when we saw a fish move near the orange spot in the crystal clear water. Made me think I've missed a hundred million nymph strikes over the years. When you SEE them hit and still feel no strike, it makes you wonder. And as I get older and for various reasons - I miss even more strikes - the odds are going down for me... What is a Crazy Charlie? Fred |
Nymph theory
Since I'm a relative newbie, allow me to fullfill my duty as relative
newbie and ask a dumb question. Recently I was fishing a warm water stream for smallmouth and I was using a little split shot about 8" up from the fly on the tippet, and I found after a while, I got a nasty tangle in my tippet around the split shot. It was like a wind knot but worse? How does everyone avoid nasty wind knots when using split shot? Or is it just a fact of life, and the reason we carry extra spools of tippet? thanks -Ethan salmobytes wrote: 3) Split shot 12-24" up the leader allows the nymph to drift naturally, A solution: Stick with the *extra-short* leader, but put it on a dry line. Put an extra-big, pea-sized split shot at the junction of the end of the fly line and the leader butt. It's not a perfect solution. |
Nymph theory
"Ethan" wrote in message
oups.com... Since I'm a relative newbie, allow me to fullfill my duty as relative newbie and ask a dumb question. We've had some dumb questions over the years, this isn't one of them. Recently I was fishing a warm water stream for smallmouth and I was using a little split shot about 8" up from the fly on the tippet, and I found after a while, I got a nasty tangle in my tippet around the split shot. It was like a wind knot but worse? How does everyone avoid nasty wind knots when using split shot? Or is it just a fact of life, and the reason we carry extra spools of tippet? You probably need to adjust your casting stroke, probably slowing down a little and even expanding your backcast to let your rod load fully before beginning the forward stroke. If you're doing any false casting your chances of this happening are greater too. When fishing with weight, especially with a softer action rod, the operative words are slower and smoother. I was taught to not even try a typical cast when I was starting out and using weight, more of a "swing" but it kept me from false casting too much and getting some significant bird's nest in my leader. Pick up your fly at the end of the drift, backcast once and place your fly on the next cast, even if you have to do this a few times to get to your target. |
Nymph theory
Sandy said:
You always get the most strikes on the end fly, Steve said: I haven't found that to be true Sandy. Do you think perhaps you just feel more of the strikes at the end fly? ......I find that to be true (end fly works best) when I chain the flies together, with the tippet of the end fly clinch knotted to the bend of hook in front. I do that because it tangles less and it's easier to cast. But maybe it ain't work as good as an old fashioned dropper loop. My experience is that I do catch flsh on the up-leader fly, else I wouldn't bother to do it at all. But I do find I catch fewer fish than the end fly. |
Nymph theory
Interesting thread. What books on nymphing have all of you found
helpful? salmobytes wrote: Sandy said: You always get the most strikes on the end fly, Steve said: I haven't found that to be true Sandy. Do you think perhaps you just feel more of the strikes at the end fly? .....I find that to be true (end fly works best) when I chain the flies together, with the tippet of the end fly clinch knotted to the bend of hook in front. I do that because it tangles less and it's easier to cast. But maybe it ain't work as good as an old fashioned dropper loop. My experience is that I do catch flsh on the up-leader fly, else I wouldn't bother to do it at all. But I do find I catch fewer fish than the end fly. |
Nymph theory
wrote:
Interesting thread. What books on nymphing have all of you found helpful? I can honestly say I've found nymphing to be one of those "magical" things for which books can only crudely describe the basics of actual action. Books have helped me understand the foods and feeding of nymphing fish, but only actually doing it has taught me much about the technique. Joe F. |
Nymph theory
Fred Lebow wrote:
What is a Crazy Charlie? It's a bonefish fly, usually tied with hollow chain bead eyes. But for use as a fish-catching sinker on large western rivers, I tie them with heavier nickel barbell eyes. http://business.virgin.net/british.c...inkbeadeye.jpg |
Nymph theory
rb608 wrote:
wrote: Interesting thread. What books on nymphing have all of you found helpful? I can honestly say I've found nymphing to be one of those "magical" things for which books can only crudely describe the basics of actual action. Books have helped me understand the foods and feeding of nymphing fish, but only actually doing it has taught me much about the technique. This reminds me of a nice experience I had on the Crowsnest earlier this summer. Let me preface it by saying that I rarely fish subsurface flies, as I don't really care for weighted flies, split shot, etc., and I don't have a lot of confidence in my abilities. The water was low and clear, and I had been fishing dries with decent success, catching fish in the 8-10" range. I noticed a larger "flash" in a deep hole and decided to give it a shot with a subsurface fly. It took me several casts to get the fly to drift close to where I had seen the fish's flank. When I did, I just tightened up the line without having seen anything concrete to indicate he had taken it, and I had the fish on. It turned out to be the biggest trout I've caught in my limited experience, and the first one I had caught when specifically targeting him with a nymph. I had read all the books about tightlining, indicators, right-angle nymphing, etc., etc., but it was really just instinct that made me set the hook. Hmmm, I could have sworn I had a point to this when I started writing it ... Oh yeah ... the next time I'm on the water and get the urge to fish like the hoi-polloi ;-), I'm forsaking all the excess stuff and just relying on blind luck. :-) Chuck Vance (even a blind liberrian finds the slop sometimes) |
Nymph theory
"Steve" wrote in message ... On 13 Nov 2006 10:31:08 -0800, wrote: Interesting thread. What books on nymphing have all of you found helpful? My checkbook. I just looked in the Milwaukee Public Library's on line catalog. They don't have that. Could I please borrow your copy? :) Wolfgang |
Nymph theory
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Nymph theory
boy thinking about nymphing problems makes me think about a leader design I
picked up in Trout by Ernest Schwiebert I think it was called a nymphing leader, it was 13 feet and the middle section had a 3 foot section of 0.13. you could lay out a fairly long cast and the nymph would swim more naturally.the fly is some what detached form the rest of the rig. I liked it. I have the formula someplace I'll dig it up if any one is interested. "Wayne Knight" wrote in message . .. "Ethan" wrote in message oups.com... Since I'm a relative newbie, allow me to fullfill my duty as relative newbie and ask a dumb question. We've had some dumb questions over the years, this isn't one of them. Recently I was fishing a warm water stream for smallmouth and I was using a little split shot about 8" up from the fly on the tippet, and I found after a while, I got a nasty tangle in my tippet around the split shot. It was like a wind knot but worse? How does everyone avoid nasty wind knots when using split shot? Or is it just a fact of life, and the reason we carry extra spools of tippet? You probably need to adjust your casting stroke, probably slowing down a little and even expanding your backcast to let your rod load fully before beginning the forward stroke. If you're doing any false casting your chances of this happening are greater too. When fishing with weight, especially with a softer action rod, the operative words are slower and smoother. I was taught to not even try a typical cast when I was starting out and using weight, more of a "swing" but it kept me from false casting too much and getting some significant bird's nest in my leader. Pick up your fly at the end of the drift, backcast once and place your fly on the next cast, even if you have to do this a few times to get to your target. |
Nymph theory
wrote in message oups.com... Interesting thread. What books on nymphing have all of you found helpful? It's been a while since I last read it, but "Fishing the Nymph" by Jim Quick was very helpful to me, I think? Op |
Nymph theory
Opus McDopus wrote: It's been a while since I last read it, but "Fishing the Nymph" by Jim Quick was very helpful to me, I think? Op Too bad that fine old book is now (I think) out of print: http://montana-riverboats.com/MRBblo...fishermen.html |
Nymph theory
"salmobytes" wrote in message ps.com... Opus McDopus wrote: It's been a while since I last read it, but "Fishing the Nymph" by Jim Quick was very helpful to me, I think? Op Too bad that fine old book is now (I think) out of print: http://montana-riverboats.com/MRBblo...fishermen.html I got my dad's copy. I found several by Googlin'. http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q...=Google+Search http://www.flyepenbooks.com/Catalogue/O_R.html This was the least expensive I found. Damn good price, if still available. http://www.oldfishingstuff.com/fishing_books.htm Quick, Jim, Fishing the Nymph, NY, 1960, F, $10.00 Op |
Nymph theory
Opus McDopus wrote:
"salmobytes" wrote in message ps.com... Opus McDopus wrote: It's been a while since I last read it, but "Fishing the Nymph" by Jim Quick was very helpful to me, I think? Op Too bad that fine old book is now (I think) out of print: http://montana-riverboats.com/MRBblo...fishermen.html I got my dad's copy. I found several by Googlin'. http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q...=Google+Search http://www.flyepenbooks.com/Catalogue/O_R.html This was the least expensive I found. Damn good price, if still available. http://www.oldfishingstuff.com/fishing_books.htm Quick, Jim, Fishing the Nymph, NY, 1960, F, $10.00 Op Thanks for the leads. |
Nymph theory
"Steve" wrote in message ... On Mon, 13 Nov 2006 15:50:09 -0600, "Wolfgang" wrote: "Steve" wrote in message . .. On 13 Nov 2006 10:31:08 -0800, wrote: Interesting thread. What books on nymphing have all of you found helpful? My checkbook. I just looked in the Milwaukee Public Library's on line catalog. They don't have that. Could I please borrow your copy? :) Wolfgang Absolutely. Would you like it autographed? Nah. Unless you're famous or something autographs just reduce the value. Wolfgang |
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