Nymph theory
 

Assumption(s)
1) In order to fish nymphs successfully you have to get the
fly down (emergers are not nymphs, by this assumption).

2) A heavily weighted fly does not drift naturally (does
not work well)

3) Split shot 12-24" up the leader allows the nymph
to drift naturally, but strikes become harder to detect.
Split shot on the supple part of a leader tends to
sink that part of the leader deeper than the fly. So, when
the fish takes, the leader has to straighten some before
you can feel the strike

4) A sink tip line with a short leader allows the fly
drift naturally. But because the weight exists as part
of a stiff end section of fly line, the line tends to
stay straight, so it is easier to feel the strike (compared
to split shot on the supple leader).

However, sink tip lines are a pain the butt, and they
make it impossible to quickly switch back to dry flies,
when conditions call for it.

A solution:
Stick with the *extra-short* leader, but put it on a dry line.
Put an extra-big, pea-sized split shot at the junction
of the end of the fly line and the leader butt. It's not a
perfect solution. It's not as easy to cast as a sink tip,
but it is castable, and you can get the nymph down.
You can feel the strikes and you can switch back to
a dry fly without changing rods or lines.

Nymph theory
 

On 12 Nov 2006 07:27:40 -0800, "salmobytes"
wrote:

Assumption(s)
1) In order to fish nymphs successfully you have to get the
fly down (emergers are not nymphs, by this assumption).

2) A heavily weighted fly does not drift naturally (does
not work well)

3) Split shot 12-24" up the leader allows the nymph
to drift naturally, but strikes become harder to detect.
Split shot on the supple part of a leader tends to
sink that part of the leader deeper than the fly. So, when
the fish takes, the leader has to straighten some before
you can feel the strike

4) A sink tip line with a short leader allows the fly
drift naturally. But because the weight exists as part
of a stiff end section of fly line, the line tends to
stay straight, so it is easier to feel the strike (compared
to split shot on the supple leader).

However, sink tip lines are a pain the butt, and they
make it impossible to quickly switch back to dry flies,
when conditions call for it.

A solution:
Stick with the *extra-short* leader, but put it on a dry line.
Put an extra-big, pea-sized split shot at the junction
of the end of the fly line and the leader butt. It's not a
perfect solution. It's not as easy to cast as a sink tip,
but it is castable, and you can get the nymph down.
You can feel the strikes and you can switch back to
a dry fly without changing rods or lines.

Your solution appears to conflict with Assumption #3.
And I'm not sure Assumption #2 is well-founded...

/daytripper

Nymph theory
 

daytripper wrote:


Your solution appears to conflict with Assumption #3.
And I'm not sure Assumption #2 is well-founded...


Yes there is debate about assumption #2 (that heavily
weighted flies deattract fish). There are many believers.

Weight at the end of the fly line still sinks that part of
the line down lower than the fly. But not as much as
split shot on the thin, supple part of the leader.

A sink tip with a short leader does work the best,
IM-notso-HO, but they're a pain. I've just been
experimenting with ways to use dry lines more better,
with nymps.

Nymph theory
 

"salmobytes" wrote in message
oups.com...
snip
A solution:
Stick with the *extra-short* leader, but put it on a dry line.
Put an extra-big, pea-sized split shot at the junction
of the end of the fly line and the leader butt. It's not a
perfect solution. It's not as easy to cast as a sink tip,
but it is castable, and you can get the nymph down.
You can feel the strikes and you can switch back to
a dry fly without changing rods or lines.

A solution that I find more satisfactory than any you mentioned, is to use a
floating line, standard length leader, and two flies, one of which is
weighted and acts as a tool fly. The position of the tool fly relative to
the other fly can easily be switched to meet different conditions. It may
either be placed at the end of the tippet, with the other fly attached to
the tag from the blood knot connecting the leader to the tippet, or their
relative positions may be reversed. I usually favor the second option. The
tool fly is taken only slightly less often than the other fly. Split shot
may be substituted for the tool fly in those jurisdictions where fishing 2
flys at once is prohibited.

Bob Weinberger La Grande, OR

Nymph theory
 

Bob Weinberger wrote:

A solution that I find more satisfactory than any you mentioned, is to use a
floating line, standard length leader, and two flies, one of which is
weighted and acts as a tool fly.

Yes, that's a good rig too. I often use an extra-heavy barbell
eyed crazy charlie for that rig........it gets the fly down, it works
and I do catch fish on the crazy charlie.

All this wondering, on my part, about weight on the leader stems
from a camping trip two weeks back, when I fished in crystal
clear, slow moving water, with egg flies and weight.

When we put split shot next the egg, or used heavy glass beads,
we got more refusals than when we used an unweighted egg
and split shot on the leader, maybe 24" back up the leader.

But when we did that you couldn't so easily feel the strike.
We caught most of those fish when we saw a fish move near
the orange spot in the crystal clear water. Made me think
I've missed a hundred million nymph strikes over the years.
When you SEE them hit and still feel no strike, it makes you wonder.

Nymph theory
 

"salmobytes" wrote in message
oups.com...
When we put split shot next the egg, or used heavy glass beads,
we got more refusals than when we used an unweighted egg
and split shot on the leader, maybe 24" back up the leader.

But when we did that you couldn't so easily feel the strike.
We caught most of those fish when we saw a fish move near
the orange spot in the crystal clear water. Made me think
I've missed a hundred million nymph strikes over the years.
When you SEE them hit and still feel no strike, it makes you wonder.


That can be largely solved by having the weight (tool fly) below (at the end
of the tippet) and the target fly on the tag of the blood knot leader-
tippet connection.

Bob Weinberger La Grande, OR

Nymph theory
 

Bob said:
"That can be largely solved by having the weight (tool fly) below (at
the end
of the tippet) and the target fly on the tag of the blood knot leader-
tippet connection."

Yeah, maybe. I use that rig when it's windy. I remember a trip from
Gray Reef damn down. That trip was the first time I ever fished
the Crazy Charlie for weight. My partner Wayne used split shot
on the leader and I used the Crazy Charlie. We both used itty
bitty blue bead heads on the end. Wayne's a better fisherman than
I am, but I was able to keep pace because of all the extra fish
I caught on the Crazy Charlie.

When it got windy I put the Crazy Charlie out on the end and I was
still able to fish, but the strike rate went downhill instantly. You
always
get the most strikes on the end fly, so you want to put the fly that
gets
the most strikes out at the end, if at all possible.

That rig (the Crazy Charlie used at mid-leader for weight) followed
by an itty bitty beadhead, is what I call the Gray Reefer, because of
that trip. Works great. But they're a bit hard to keep lit when it's
that windy.

Nymph theory
 

I'm just rambling now, but I do remember something worth
mentioning. In my last post I mentioned a North Platte Wyoming
trip, below Gray Reef damn, where I used a Crazy Charlie for
weight and small blue beadhead nymph out on the end.

The other rig that really killed them that day (it was mid April and
the big
rainbows were active on shallow redds) was a Crazy Charlie
followed by a small, maybe 2" long red plastic worm from Wallmart.

That rig really drove my fishing partner nuts. I remember between the
two of us we caught close to two dozen fish at the put-in, before
sliding
the boat in the water. Those little red
rubber worms are hard to find. But they beat the hell out
of San Juan worms. Same concept, really. But way more effective.

Nymph theory
 

/iss/"salmobytes" wrote in message
oups.com...

Bob Weinberger wrote:

A solution that I find more satisfactory than any you mentioned, is to
use a
floating line, standard length leader, and two flies, one of which is
weighted and acts as a tool fly.

Yes, that's a good rig too. I often use an extra-heavy barbell
eyed crazy charlie for that rig........it gets the fly down, it works
and I do catch fish on the crazy charlie.

All this wondering, on my part, about weight on the leader stems
from a camping trip two weeks back, when I fished in crystal
clear, slow moving water, with egg flies and weight.

When we put split shot next the egg, or used heavy glass beads,
we got more refusals than when we used an unweighted egg
and split shot on the leader, maybe 24" back up the leader.

But when we did that you couldn't so easily feel the strike.
We caught most of those fish when we saw a fish move near
the orange spot in the crystal clear water. Made me think
I've missed a hundred million nymph strikes over the years.
When you SEE them hit and still feel no strike, it makes you wonder.

And as I get older and for various reasons - I miss even more strikes - the
odds are going down for me...

What is a Crazy Charlie?

Fred

Nymph theory
 

I googled it

A Bonefish fly?
It would have to be small .. interesting

Thanks
Fred


"Fred Lebow" wrote in message
et...
/iss/"salmobytes" wrote in message
oups.com...

Bob Weinberger wrote:

A solution that I find more satisfactory than any you mentioned, is to
use a
floating line, standard length leader, and two flies, one of which is
weighted and acts as a tool fly.

Yes, that's a good rig too. I often use an extra-heavy barbell
eyed crazy charlie for that rig........it gets the fly down, it works
and I do catch fish on the crazy charlie.

All this wondering, on my part, about weight on the leader stems
from a camping trip two weeks back, when I fished in crystal
clear, slow moving water, with egg flies and weight.

When we put split shot next the egg, or used heavy glass beads,
we got more refusals than when we used an unweighted egg
and split shot on the leader, maybe 24" back up the leader.

But when we did that you couldn't so easily feel the strike.
We caught most of those fish when we saw a fish move near
the orange spot in the crystal clear water. Made me think
I've missed a hundred million nymph strikes over the years.
When you SEE them hit and still feel no strike, it makes you wonder.

And as I get older and for various reasons - I miss even more strikes -
the odds are going down for me...

What is a Crazy Charlie?

Fred

Nymph theory
 

Since I'm a relative newbie, allow me to fullfill my duty as relative
newbie and ask a dumb question.

Recently I was fishing a warm water stream for smallmouth and I was
using a little split shot about 8" up from the fly on the tippet, and I
found after a while, I got a nasty tangle in my tippet around the split
shot. It was like a wind knot but worse? How does everyone avoid nasty
wind knots when using split shot? Or is it just a fact of life, and the
reason we carry extra spools of tippet?

thanks
-Ethan

salmobytes wrote:

3) Split shot 12-24" up the leader allows the nymph
to drift naturally,


A solution:
Stick with the *extra-short* leader, but put it on a dry line.
Put an extra-big, pea-sized split shot at the junction
of the end of the fly line and the leader butt. It's not a
perfect solution.

Nymph theory
 

"Ethan" wrote in message
oups.com...
Since I'm a relative newbie, allow me to fullfill my duty as relative
newbie and ask a dumb question.

We've had some dumb questions over the years, this isn't one of them.

Recently I was fishing a warm water stream for smallmouth and I was
using a little split shot about 8" up from the fly on the tippet, and I
found after a while, I got a nasty tangle in my tippet around the split
shot. It was like a wind knot but worse? How does everyone avoid nasty
wind knots when using split shot? Or is it just a fact of life, and the
reason we carry extra spools of tippet?

You probably need to adjust your casting stroke, probably slowing down a
little and even expanding your backcast to let your rod load fully before
beginning the forward stroke. If you're doing any false casting your chances
of this happening are greater too. When fishing with weight, especially with
a softer action rod, the operative words are slower and smoother. I was
taught to not even try a typical cast when I was starting out and using
weight, more of a "swing" but it kept me from false casting too much and
getting some significant bird's nest in my leader. Pick up your fly at the
end of the drift, backcast once and place your fly on the next cast, even if
you have to do this a few times to get to your target.

Nymph theory
 

Sandy said:
You always get the most strikes on the end fly,

Steve said:
I haven't found that to be true Sandy.
Do you think perhaps you just feel more of the strikes at the end fly?

......I find that to be true (end fly works best) when I chain
the flies together, with the tippet of the end fly clinch knotted
to the bend of hook in front. I do that because it tangles less
and it's easier to cast. But maybe it ain't work as good as
an old fashioned dropper loop. My experience is that I do
catch flsh on the up-leader fly, else I wouldn't bother to do it
at all. But I do find I catch fewer fish than the end fly.

Nymph theory
 

Interesting thread. What books on nymphing have all of you found
helpful?


salmobytes wrote:
Sandy said:
You always get the most strikes on the end fly,

Steve said:
I haven't found that to be true Sandy.
Do you think perhaps you just feel more of the strikes at the end fly?

.....I find that to be true (end fly works best) when I chain
the flies together, with the tippet of the end fly clinch knotted
to the bend of hook in front. I do that because it tangles less
and it's easier to cast. But maybe it ain't work as good as
an old fashioned dropper loop. My experience is that I do
catch flsh on the up-leader fly, else I wouldn't bother to do it
at all. But I do find I catch fewer fish than the end fly.

Nymph theory
 

wrote:
Interesting thread. What books on nymphing have all of you found
helpful?

I can honestly say I've found nymphing to be one of those "magical"
things for which books can only crudely describe the basics of actual
action. Books have helped me understand the foods and feeding of
nymphing fish, but only actually doing it has taught me much about the
technique.

Joe F.

Nymph theory
 

Fred Lebow wrote:
What is a Crazy Charlie?


It's a bonefish fly, usually tied with hollow chain bead eyes.
But for use as a fish-catching sinker on large western rivers,
I tie them with heavier nickel barbell eyes.

http://business.virgin.net/british.c...inkbeadeye.jpg

Nymph theory
 

rb608 wrote:

wrote:

Interesting thread. What books on nymphing have all of you found
helpful?

I can honestly say I've found nymphing to be one of those "magical"
things for which books can only crudely describe the basics of actual
action. Books have helped me understand the foods and feeding of
nymphing fish, but only actually doing it has taught me much about the
technique.

This reminds me of a nice experience I had on the Crowsnest earlier
this summer. Let me preface it by saying that I rarely fish subsurface
flies, as I don't really care for weighted flies, split shot, etc., and
I don't have a lot of confidence in my abilities.

The water was low and clear, and I had been fishing dries with
decent success, catching fish in the 8-10" range. I noticed a larger
"flash" in a deep hole and decided to give it a shot with a subsurface
fly. It took me several casts to get the fly to drift close to where I
had seen the fish's flank. When I did, I just tightened up the line
without having seen anything concrete to indicate he had taken it, and I
had the fish on.

It turned out to be the biggest trout I've caught in my limited
experience, and the first one I had caught when specifically targeting
him with a nymph. I had read all the books about tightlining,
indicators, right-angle nymphing, etc., etc., but it was really just
instinct that made me set the hook.

Hmmm, I could have sworn I had a point to this when I started
writing it ...

Oh yeah ... the next time I'm on the water and get the urge to fish
like the hoi-polloi ;-), I'm forsaking all the excess stuff and just
relying on blind luck. :-)


Chuck Vance (even a blind liberrian finds the slop sometimes)

Nymph theory
 

"Steve" wrote in message
...
On 13 Nov 2006 10:31:08 -0800, wrote:

Interesting thread. What books on nymphing have all of you found
helpful?

My checkbook.

I just looked in the Milwaukee Public Library's on line catalog. They don't
have that. Could I please borrow your copy? :)

Wolfgang

Nymph theory
 

Nymph theory
 

boy thinking about nymphing problems makes me think about a leader design I
picked up in Trout by Ernest Schwiebert
I think it was called a nymphing leader, it was 13 feet and the middle
section had a 3 foot section of 0.13. you could lay out a fairly long cast
and the nymph would swim more naturally.the fly is some what detached form
the rest of the rig. I liked it. I have the formula someplace I'll dig it up
if any one is interested.

"Wayne Knight" wrote in message
. ..
"Ethan" wrote in message
oups.com...
Since I'm a relative newbie, allow me to fullfill my duty as relative
newbie and ask a dumb question.

We've had some dumb questions over the years, this isn't one of them.

Recently I was fishing a warm water stream for smallmouth and I was
using a little split shot about 8" up from the fly on the tippet, and I
found after a while, I got a nasty tangle in my tippet around the split
shot. It was like a wind knot but worse? How does everyone avoid nasty
wind knots when using split shot? Or is it just a fact of life, and the
reason we carry extra spools of tippet?

You probably need to adjust your casting stroke, probably slowing down a
little and even expanding your backcast to let your rod load fully before
beginning the forward stroke. If you're doing any false casting your
chances of this happening are greater too. When fishing with weight,
especially with a softer action rod, the operative words are slower and
smoother. I was taught to not even try a typical cast when I was starting
out and using weight, more of a "swing" but it kept me from false casting
too much and getting some significant bird's nest in my leader. Pick up
your fly at the end of the drift, backcast once and place your fly on the
next cast, even if you have to do this a few times to get to your target.

Nymph theory
 

wrote in message
oups.com...
Interesting thread. What books on nymphing have all of you found
helpful?

It's been a while since I last read it, but "Fishing the Nymph" by Jim Quick
was very helpful to me, I think?

Op

Nymph theory
 

Opus McDopus wrote:

It's been a while since I last read it, but "Fishing the Nymph" by Jim Quick
was very helpful to me, I think?

Op

Too bad that fine old book is now (I think) out of print:

http://montana-riverboats.com/MRBblo...fishermen.html

Nymph theory
 

"salmobytes" wrote in message
ps.com...

Opus McDopus wrote:

It's been a while since I last read it, but "Fishing the Nymph" by Jim
Quick
was very helpful to me, I think?

Op

Too bad that fine old book is now (I think) out of print:

http://montana-riverboats.com/MRBblo...fishermen.html

I got my dad's copy.

I found several by Googlin'.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q...=Google+Search

http://www.flyepenbooks.com/Catalogue/O_R.html

This was the least expensive I found. Damn good price, if still available.
http://www.oldfishingstuff.com/fishing_books.htm
Quick, Jim, Fishing the Nymph, NY, 1960, F, $10.00

Op

Nymph theory
 

Opus McDopus wrote:
"salmobytes" wrote in message
ps.com...

Opus McDopus wrote:

It's been a while since I last read it, but "Fishing the Nymph" by Jim
Quick
was very helpful to me, I think?

Op

Too bad that fine old book is now (I think) out of print:

http://montana-riverboats.com/MRBblo...fishermen.html

I got my dad's copy.

I found several by Googlin'.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q...=Google+Search

http://www.flyepenbooks.com/Catalogue/O_R.html

This was the least expensive I found. Damn good price, if still available.
http://www.oldfishingstuff.com/fishing_books.htm
Quick, Jim, Fishing the Nymph, NY, 1960, F, $10.00

Op

Thanks for the leads.

Nymph theory
 

"Steve" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 13 Nov 2006 15:50:09 -0600, "Wolfgang"
wrote:


"Steve" wrote in message
. ..
On 13 Nov 2006 10:31:08 -0800, wrote:

Interesting thread. What books on nymphing have all of you found
helpful?

My checkbook.

I just looked in the Milwaukee Public Library's on line catalog. They
don't
have that. Could I please borrow your copy? :)

Wolfgang

Absolutely.
Would you like it autographed?

Nah. Unless you're famous or something autographs just reduce the value.

Wolfgang