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Bone Fish, Permit etc.
Hi Guys,
I'm hopefully going for a holiday around next April or May to Cuba and the Cayos region. I'm a reasonable fly fisherman for Trout on river & lake but I've not done any fly fishing for Bone Fish or Permit before, so I'd welcome any recommendations on web pages, good books, DVD's etc. which will help me research before hand. I've been talking to my local Orvis shop on tackle, flies, etc but any advice from the group Bone fisher people as to tactics etc would be really appreciated as well. Thanks in advance, -- Andy Lawson (UK) |
Bone Fish, Permit etc.
Andy Lawson wrote:
Hi Guys, I'm hopefully going for a holiday around next April or May to Cuba and the Cayos region. I'm a reasonable fly fisherman for Trout on river & lake but I've not done any fly fishing for Bone Fish or Permit before, so I'd welcome any recommendations on web pages, good books, DVD's etc. which will help me research before hand. I've been talking to my local Orvis shop on tackle, flies, etc but any advice from the group Bone fisher people as to tactics etc would be really appreciated as well. Thanks in advance, You might try posting this question he http://www.danblanton.com/bulletin.php Lot's of sal****er folks who read and post there. HTH brians |
Bone Fish, Permit etc.
Andy Lawson wrote:
Hi Guys, I'm hopefully going for a holiday around next April or May to Cuba and the Cayos region. The large majority of people on this newsgroup are citizens of the USA, and are therefore prohibited by law from traveling to Cuba. Is that ****ed up, or what? -- Cut "to the chase" for my email address. |
Bone Fish, Permit etc.
On Tue, 21 Nov 2006 22:40:36 -0000, "Andy Lawson"
wrote: Hi Guys, I'm hopefully going for a holiday around next April or May to Cuba and the Cayos region. That might not be the best choice. I'd guess that economics plays into this decision, and depending on when Castro (Fidel) dies, things might not be as good a deal. I don't see any indications that tourist safety will be much of an issue, but things are likely to be a bit, um, unpredictable when he dies and for several months afterward. The short answer is that I'd offer that the Bahamas and/or Florida Keys might make a more certain prospect even if hindsight indicates it wasn't the least-expensive. This is a case where a guide, or at least a boat and operator, isn't necessary, but perhaps worth considering if time is short. I'm a reasonable fly fisherman for Trout on river & lake but I've not done any fly fishing for Bone Fish or Permit before, so I'd welcome any recommendations on web pages, good books, DVD's etc. which will help me research before hand. I've been talking to my local Orvis shop on tackle, flies, etc but any advice from the group Bone fisher people as to tactics etc would be really appreciated as well. If you don't already have a salt-suitable setup, I'd recommend a good used Billy Pate reel (with some basic spare parts pre-purchased) and any decent 9ish weight rod that happens to strike your fancy (and budget). If the budget allows, a brace might make a good investment, and if it is a "once in a lifetime" trip, one or both sold off after the adventure. Thanks in advance, You're welcome, R |
Bone Fish, Permit etc.
wrote:
On Tue, 21 Nov 2006 22:40:36 -0000, "Andy Lawson" wrote: Hi Guys, I'm hopefully going for a holiday around next April or May to Cuba and the Cayos region. That might not be the best choice. The summer before last, on a fishing trip in Belize with Willi, we met two Englishmen who had just come from Cayo Largo: http://www.cubatravelusa.com/fishing_cayo_largo.htm http://www.cubatravelusa.com/cayo_largo3.htm It was, according to them, fantastic bonefishing. They didn't like the food, however. (These were two very fat brothers from Liverpool -- one was loquacious and one was taciturn -- I called them Tweedle Dee and Tweedle Dum.) It ****es me off to no end that my government, in its infinite wisdom, and of course considering the influence of the Cuban exile community in the swing state of Florida, does not permit me to travel to Cuba under penalty of law. Where do these pipsqueak politicians get off telling me where I can and can't go? -- Cut "to the chase" for my email address. |
Bone Fish, Permit etc.
On Tue, 21 Nov 2006 23:39:24 GMT, rw
wrote: Andy Lawson wrote: Hi Guys, I'm hopefully going for a holiday around next April or May to Cuba and the Cayos region. The large majority of people on this newsgroup are citizens of the USA, and are therefore prohibited by law from traveling to Cuba. Huh? There's no overall law or prohibition on US citizens traveling to Cuba. While you can't just load up and go like you were going from New York to Chicago, there are numerous flights every day between Miami and various Cuban cities, and private boats go a lot more frequently than the US Treasury would like. And once someone is, um, "no longer required to show US-issued travel documents," things get much easier. Cuba and things Cuban are among the biggest "wink-winks" in all of travel. Hell, I've gone though Customs in Miami with a master box of cigars under one arm and a carton of Cohiba cigarettes under the other, and just been one of the many doing similar that day. Is that ****ed up, or what? Like most things you come up with, yeah, it's pretty ****ed-up... Sheesh, R |
Bone Fish, Permit etc.
http://www.cubatravelusa.com/fishing_cayo_largo.htmOn Tue, 21 Nov 2006
23:53:03 GMT, rw wrote: wrote: On Tue, 21 Nov 2006 22:40:36 -0000, "Andy Lawson" wrote: Hi Guys, I'm hopefully going for a holiday around next April or May to Cuba and the Cayos region. That might not be the best choice. The summer before last, on a fishing trip in Belize with Willi, we met two Englishmen who had just come from Cayo Largo: http://www.cubatravelusa.com/fishing_cayo_largo.htm http://www.cubatravelusa.com/cayo_largo3.htm It was, according to them, fantastic bonefishing. They didn't like the food, however. (These were two very fat brothers from Liverpool -- one was loquacious and one was taciturn -- I called them Tweedle Dee and Tweedle Dum.) It ****es me off to no end that my government, in its infinite wisdom, and of course considering the influence of the Cuban exile community in the swing state of Florida, does not permit me to travel to Cuba under penalty of law. Where do these pipsqueak politicians get off telling me where I can and can't go? Did you actually _READ_ any of the site you yourself posted? Part of me is tempted to simply call you a moron, but I don't _really_ think you are, another part is tempted to make smart-assed remarks, and the remaining part is just sad that you're spreading bad information even with better information at your fingertips. So I'm simply asking, "Did you actually _READ_ any of the site you posted?" R |
Bone Fish, Permit etc.
Cyli wrote:
On Tue, 21 Nov 2006 19:05:53 -0600, wrote: It ****es me off to no end that my government, in its infinite wisdom, and of course considering the influence of the Cuban exile community in the swing state of Florida, does not permit me to travel to Cuba under penalty of law. Where do these pipsqueak politicians get off telling me where I can and can't go? Did you actually _READ_ any of the site you yourself posted? Part of me is tempted to simply call you a moron, but I don't _really_ think you are, another part is tempted to make smart-assed remarks, and the remaining part is just sad that you're spreading bad information even with better information at your fingertips. So I'm simply asking, "Did you actually _READ_ any of the site you posted?" Well, the Travel Cuba USA site quotes what US citizens can legally go to Cuba. "Americans can travel to Cuba legally if you are a Cuban American, politician, journalist or if you have a research project regarding Cuba. Others including students, religious groups, and humanitarians can apply for a license from the U.S. Treasury Department Office of Foreign Assets Control (OFAC)" I don't think that covers too many bone fishermen and tourists who want a tan on the beach. It is impossible for anyone under American jurisdiction to travel to Cuba legally as a tourist, unless perhaps he or she made a substantial contribution to the Republican Party. A license is required, and the conditions for a license specifically exclude tourism. -- Cut "to the chase" for my email address. |
Bone Fish, Permit etc.
"rw" wrote in message nk.net... Cyli wrote: On Tue, 21 Nov 2006 19:05:53 -0600, wrote: It ****es me off to no end that my government, in its infinite wisdom, and of course considering the influence of the Cuban exile community in the swing state of Florida, does not permit me to travel to Cuba under penalty of law. Where do these pipsqueak politicians get off telling me where I can and can't go? Did you actually _READ_ any of the site you yourself posted? Part of me is tempted to simply call you a moron, but I don't _really_ think you are, another part is tempted to make smart-assed remarks, and the remaining part is just sad that you're spreading bad information even with better information at your fingertips. So I'm simply asking, "Did you actually _READ_ any of the site you posted?" Well, the Travel Cuba USA site quotes what US citizens can legally go to Cuba. "Americans can travel to Cuba legally if you are a Cuban American, politician, journalist or if you have a research project regarding Cuba. Others including students, religious groups, and humanitarians can apply for a license from the U.S. Treasury Department Office of Foreign Assets Control (OFAC)" I don't think that covers too many bone fishermen and tourists who want a tan on the beach. It is impossible for anyone under American jurisdiction to travel to Cuba legally as a tourist, unless perhaps he or she made a substantial contribution to the Republican Party. A license is required, and the conditions for a license specifically exclude tourism. -- Cut "to the chase" for my email address. If you have relatives in Cuba, you can easily go. Daughters college friend still has family in Cuba, so the family went to see them. Girl said she kissed the ground when she returned to the US as Cuba was not very nice living wise. |
Bone Fish, Permit etc.
Calif Bill wrote:
If you have relatives in Cuba, you can easily go. I don't have relatives in Cuba. It used to be that you could enter Cuba illegally through Canada or Mexico and get away with it, but President Bush, bless his heart, started really cracking down. Now you face 10 years imprisonment and a fine of $250,000. -- Cut "to the chase" for my email address. |
Bone Fish, Permit etc.
rw wrote:
Calif Bill wrote: If you have relatives in Cuba, you can easily go. I don't have relatives in Cuba. It used to be that you could enter Cuba illegally through Canada or Mexico and get away with it, but President Bush, bless his heart, started really cracking down. Now you face 10 years imprisonment and a fine of $250,000. People I know who visit Cuba go through Jamaica. It's illegal but nobody's ever had any trouble even as recently as last February. -- Ken Fortenberry |
Bone Fish, Permit etc.
On Tue, 21 Nov 2006 22:47:35 -0600, Cyli wrote:
On Tue, 21 Nov 2006 19:05:53 -0600, wrote: It ****es me off to no end that my government, in its infinite wisdom, and of course considering the influence of the Cuban exile community in the swing state of Florida, does not permit me to travel to Cuba under penalty of law. Where do these pipsqueak politicians get off telling me where I can and can't go? Did you actually _READ_ any of the site you yourself posted? Part of me is tempted to simply call you a moron, but I don't _really_ think you are, another part is tempted to make smart-assed remarks, and the remaining part is just sad that you're spreading bad information even with better information at your fingertips. So I'm simply asking, "Did you actually _READ_ any of the site you posted?" Well, the Travel Cuba USA site quotes what US citizens can legally go to Cuba. "Americans can travel to Cuba legally if you are a Cuban American, politician, journalist or if you have a research project regarding Cuba. Others including students, religious groups, and humanitarians can apply for a license from the U.S. Treasury Department Office of Foreign Assets Control (OFAC)" I don't think that covers too many bone fishermen and tourists who want a tan on the beach. What you posted above doesn't cover such. So what? That isn't the regs. Heck, sponsored travelers don't even have to contact Treasury. The regs are against spending money in Cuba ("Trading with the enemy"), not travel (IOW, there are no "Tanning on the enemy's beach" regs). First and foremost, I'm not giving travel advice, and certainly not giving legal opinion, just observing that _everyone_ involved tacitly understands that the regs, aside from being silly, are _almost_ unenforceable. For example, a fully-sponsored traveler need not even contact Treasury about a trip, but they _may_ be _asked_ to sign a statement that says the trip was fully-sponsored and show that they don't have any receipts for expenditures while in Cuba. True enough, if they want to bring back a suitcase full of cigars, rum, and cigarettes like everyone else, but call them "gifts," they _may_ be then required to apply for a license. Obviously, given the copious record-keeping and video surveillance of your average bodega, combined with ready cooperation they'd obviously receive, it'd be a snap for Treasury to send over a few of it's agents, who really aren't very busy anyway, to prove some tourist spent a few bucks in Cuba. And you average US Attorney can't wait for those agents return with what will undoubtedly be a career-making case. And they'll be all the more excited given the challenging nature of the case - no evidence, no witnesses, very iffy laws, a jury whose primary question will be "why in the **** am I missing my soap operas for THIS?," and finally, the real enticement, any number of well-funded groups with lawyers leaking out of their ears who have repeatedly and publicly stated that they'll provide any and all legal assistance, wanted or not, to anyone ever charged with Cuban travel-expenditure-related violations. IOW, these are adults with real jobs to do, and some tourist buying daiquiris in Cuba ain't real high on the priority list. Does this mean I think that some yuppie dip**** Hemingwannabe - let's call our hypothetical traveler Woyal Rulff - can jump a jet, be his silly-assed ugly-American self for a coupla-three weeks, and waltz back through Miami after using his iFruit laptop in a Havana internet cafe to post a brag to ROFF about how all the Cuban chicks are diggin' his groovin' style? Who knows? And who cares? OTOH, I've not heard of a single case of an average traveler getting anything more than the merest of "boilerplate" hassles, and even that is rare. Simply put, should a US citizen travel to Cuba, let's just say that they won't come as a shock or surprise to anyone, and unless they take steps to avoid doing so, they are likely to run to other USers...heck, they won't even have a problem with the money... HTH, R |
Bone Fish, Permit etc.
On Wed, 22 Nov 2006 05:33:11 GMT, rw
wrote: Cyli wrote: On Tue, 21 Nov 2006 19:05:53 -0600, wrote: It ****es me off to no end that my government, in its infinite wisdom, and of course considering the influence of the Cuban exile community in the swing state of Florida, does not permit me to travel to Cuba under penalty of law. Where do these pipsqueak politicians get off telling me where I can and can't go? Did you actually _READ_ any of the site you yourself posted? Part of me is tempted to simply call you a moron, but I don't _really_ think you are, another part is tempted to make smart-assed remarks, and the remaining part is just sad that you're spreading bad information even with better information at your fingertips. So I'm simply asking, "Did you actually _READ_ any of the site you posted?" Well, the Travel Cuba USA site quotes what US citizens can legally go to Cuba. "Americans can travel to Cuba legally if you are a Cuban American, politician, journalist or if you have a research project regarding Cuba. Others including students, religious groups, and humanitarians can apply for a license from the U.S. Treasury Department Office of Foreign Assets Control (OFAC)" I don't think that covers too many bone fishermen and tourists who want a tan on the beach. It is impossible for anyone under American jurisdiction to travel to Cuba legally as a tourist, Um, excuse me, there, Arthur Frommer, but what you seem to be attempting to say is wrong - IAC, yes, an American citizen can legally travel to Cuba as a tourist. unless perhaps he or she made a substantial contribution to the Republican Party. Actually, on this one, the Dems would be the one to bribe if it were necessary. A license is required, No, it isn't. and the conditions for a license specifically exclude tourism. AHA! Finally, ya got one...but it's a meaningless one... HTH, R |
Bone Fish, Permit etc.
On Wed, 22 Nov 2006 10:42:11 GMT, rw
wrote: Calif Bill wrote: If you have relatives in Cuba, you can easily go. I don't have relatives in Cuba. It used to be that you could enter Cuba illegally through Canada or Mexico and get away with it, but President Bush, bless his heart, started really cracking down. Now you face 10 years imprisonment and a fine of $250,000. You don't know jack **** about travel or history, but now that I think about it, you're right - you are absolutely prohibited from traveling to Cuba. |
Bone Fish, Permit etc.
wrote:
On Tue, 21 Nov 2006 22:47:35 -0600, Cyli wrote: On Tue, 21 Nov 2006 19:05:53 -0600, wrote: It ****es me off to no end that my government, in its infinite wisdom, and of course considering the influence of the Cuban exile community in the swing state of Florida, does not permit me to travel to Cuba under penalty of law. Where do these pipsqueak politicians get off telling me where I can and can't go? Did you actually _READ_ any of the site you yourself posted? Part of me is tempted to simply call you a moron, but I don't _really_ think you are, another part is tempted to make smart-assed remarks, and the remaining part is just sad that you're spreading bad information even with better information at your fingertips. So I'm simply asking, "Did you actually _READ_ any of the site you posted?" Well, the Travel Cuba USA site quotes what US citizens can legally go to Cuba. "Americans can travel to Cuba legally if you are a Cuban American, politician, journalist or if you have a research project regarding Cuba. Others including students, religious groups, and humanitarians can apply for a license from the U.S. Treasury Department Office of Foreign Assets Control (OFAC)" I don't think that covers too many bone fishermen and tourists who want a tan on the beach. What you posted above doesn't cover such. So what? That isn't the regs. Heck, sponsored travelers don't even have to contact Treasury. The regs are against spending money in Cuba ("Trading with the enemy"), not travel (IOW, there are no "Tanning on the enemy's beach" regs). from: http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/1108-07.htm Published on Saturday, November 8, 2003 by the South Florida Sun-Sentinel U.S. Launches Crackdown on Cuba Travel by Rafael Lorente The Bush administration for the first time is beginning judicial proceedings against dozens of people accused of illegally visiting Cuba, even as Republicans and Democrats in Congress move to end enforcement of the four-decade-old U.S. travel ban to the island. Last month, unauthorized travelers to Cuba started receiving notices from the Treasury Department that they would be required to appear before a judge. The notices went out about the same time the Senate voted to prohibit enforcement of the travel ban. "It's incredible that hearings to enforce fines against Cuba travelers are beginning at a time when Congress and the American people have clearly stated their opposition to the travel ban," said Nancy Chang, an attorney with the New York-based Center for Constitutional Rights. Chang said two of her center's clients have received such notices and could face hearings early next year. Until last month, people accused of illegal travel to Cuba had three choices: pay the fine levied by the Treasury Department, negotiate a settlement for a lower fine or request a hearing before an administrative law judge. Those who requested a hearing found themselves in legal limbo because Treasury's Office of Foreign Assets Control, which enforces the travel ban, did not have any administrative law judges. But earlier this year, the office borrowed several judges from the Justice Department and the Federal Mine Safety and Health Review Commission. Judges for the commission usually settle "legal disputes arising under the Federal Mine Safety and Health Amendments Act of 1977." Fifty cases have been referred to the judges, said Taylor Griffin, a Treasury Department spokesman. "We're going to be really stepping up enforcement," Griffin said. Under the existing travel ban, Americans who do not qualify for one of a limited number of licenses allowing them to legally fly directly from the United States to Cuba usually travel via Canada, Mexico or the Bahamas. If they are caught when they return to the United States, American travelers are often questioned in writing about their trips. Many are later told to pay a hefty fine, often about $7,500. That's exactly what happened to Michael and Ande McCarthy of Port Huron, Mich. The couple spent a week in Cuba in 2001, taking medicines to a Catholic group in Havana, visiting Trinidad on the south side of the island and even giving a ride to a hitchhiking woman and her daughter trying to get a newly purchased fan 30 miles back to their home. An awkward time The McCarthys returned from Cuba through Toronto and started driving home to Michigan. When the couple reached the Blue Water Bridge that connects Canada to Port Huron they were asked by border agents where they had been. Instead of saying Toronto, they said Cuba. "We're for independence, we're for being free to travel," said Michael McCarthy, 56. For their honesty, the couple were sent letters from the Treasury Department asking for $15,000 in fines -- $7,500 each. They asked for hearings and last month Michael McCarthy received a letter signed by Richard Newcomb, the director of the foreign assets control office. The letter says McCarthy violated the Trading with the Enemy Act by spending about $750 for a Cuba vacation package. The letter also says McCarthy violated the law by "purchasing, transporting, and importing cigars, a bottle of rum, and clothing" from Cuba valued at about $150. The move to crack down on travelers such as the McCarthys comes at an awkward time. On Oct. 23, the same day the letter from the government to McCarthy went out, the Senate inserted an amendment into the Transportation and Treasury Department appropriations bill that would prohibit the Bush administration from spending money to enforce the travel ban. The House passed a similar amendment in September. This week, the Senate Foreign Relations Committee voted 13-5 for a separate bill that would overturn the travel ban altogether. Chang, the New York lawyer, thinks the legislation would make the hearings before administrative law judges moot. The filibuster option President Bush has threatened to veto any legislation weakening the travel ban or the embargo against Cuba. The White House and its allies are hoping to avoid a veto by stripping the travel ban provisions from the appropriations bills in a conference being held now to work out differences between the House and Senate versions. This week, two Republicans and two Democrats in the Senate opposed to the president's Cuba policy sent a letter to the conference negotiators demanding that the travel ban provisions remain. Otherwise, the letter said, "we will consider all parliamentary options available to us to respond" -- a not-so-veiled threat of a filibuster. Enforcement of the travel ban has been stronger since Bush took office. Bush benefited from a huge turnout by Cuban-American voters in South Florida who perceived the Clinton administration as soft on Cuba's Fidel Castro and who oppose tourism to the island because it puts money in the coffers of the government. During the 2000 campaign, Bush promised to be tougher on Castro, and enforcing the travel ban was one way to do it. But many of Bush's Cuban-American allies have not been happy with the administration, saying it has not done enough and threatening to withhold support in next year's presidential election. In response, Bush last month announced a new presidential commission on transition to democracy in Cuba and said his administration would crack down on travel to the island, which he said encourages "an illicit sex trade." But within two weeks, the Senate voted to forbid enforcing the travel ban, setting up the current showdown. "There's only one man standing between my wife and myself and our friends who want to make connections [in Cuba]," Michael McCarthy said. "And that man is George W. Bush." -- Cut "to the chase" for my email address. |
Bone Fish, Permit etc.
On Wed, 22 Nov 2006 14:39:57 GMT, rw
wrote: wrote: On Tue, 21 Nov 2006 22:47:35 -0600, Cyli wrote: On Tue, 21 Nov 2006 19:05:53 -0600, wrote: It ****es me off to no end that my government, in its infinite wisdom, and of course considering the influence of the Cuban exile community in the swing state of Florida, does not permit me to travel to Cuba under penalty of law. Where do these pipsqueak politicians get off telling me where I can and can't go? Did you actually _READ_ any of the site you yourself posted? Part of me is tempted to simply call you a moron, but I don't _really_ think you are, another part is tempted to make smart-assed remarks, and the remaining part is just sad that you're spreading bad information even with better information at your fingertips. So I'm simply asking, "Did you actually _READ_ any of the site you posted?" Well, the Travel Cuba USA site quotes what US citizens can legally go to Cuba. "Americans can travel to Cuba legally if you are a Cuban American, politician, journalist or if you have a research project regarding Cuba. Others including students, religious groups, and humanitarians can apply for a license from the U.S. Treasury Department Office of Foreign Assets Control (OFAC)" I don't think that covers too many bone fishermen and tourists who want a tan on the beach. What you posted above doesn't cover such. So what? That isn't the regs. Heck, sponsored travelers don't even have to contact Treasury. The regs are against spending money in Cuba ("Trading with the enemy"), not travel (IOW, there are no "Tanning on the enemy's beach" regs). from: http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/1108-07.htm Published on Saturday, November 8, 2003 by the South Florida Sun-Sentinel U.S. Launches Crackdown on Cuba Travel by Rafael Lorente Absolutely. Spot on. You should never go to Cuba - it's illegal. And besides, the Bush administration will have you drawn and quartered for even considering it. Cuba ba-a-a-a-ad, Common Dreams go-o-o-o-od. Perhaps I was a bit hasty with regard to you not actually being a moron, R |
Bone Fish, Permit etc.
wrote:
On Wed, 22 Nov 2006 05:33:11 GMT, rw wrote: Cyli wrote: On Tue, 21 Nov 2006 19:05:53 -0600, wrote: It ****es me off to no end that my government, in its infinite wisdom, and of course considering the influence of the Cuban exile community in the swing state of Florida, does not permit me to travel to Cuba under penalty of law. Where do these pipsqueak politicians get off telling me where I can and can't go? Did you actually _READ_ any of the site you yourself posted? Part of me is tempted to simply call you a moron, but I don't _really_ think you are, another part is tempted to make smart-assed remarks, and the remaining part is just sad that you're spreading bad information even with better information at your fingertips. So I'm simply asking, "Did you actually _READ_ any of the site you posted?" Well, the Travel Cuba USA site quotes what US citizens can legally go to Cuba. "Americans can travel to Cuba legally if you are a Cuban American, politician, journalist or if you have a research project regarding Cuba. Others including students, religious groups, and humanitarians can apply for a license from the U.S. Treasury Department Office of Foreign Assets Control (OFAC)" I don't think that covers too many bone fishermen and tourists who want a tan on the beach. It is impossible for anyone under American jurisdiction to travel to Cuba legally as a tourist, Um, excuse me, there, Arthur Frommer, but what you seem to be attempting to say is wrong - IAC, yes, an American citizen can legally travel to Cuba as a tourist. As usual, you don't know what the **** you're talking about, but that doesn't stop you from bloviating. What am I going to believe: what's reported in the South Florida Sun-Sentinel, what's stated unambiguously as policy by the President and the Justice Department, or what's claimed by a ROFF ****head who's famous for being wrong about nearly everything and has the track record to prove it? -- Cut "to the chase" for my email address. |
Bone Fish, Permit etc.
On Wed, 22 Nov 2006 15:05:24 GMT, rw wrote:
wrote: On Wed, 22 Nov 2006 05:33:11 GMT, rw wrote: Cyli wrote: On Tue, 21 Nov 2006 19:05:53 -0600, wrote: It ****es me off to no end that my government, in its infinite wisdom, and of course considering the influence of the Cuban exile community in the swing state of Florida, does not permit me to travel to Cuba under penalty of law. Where do these pipsqueak politicians get off telling me where I can and can't go? Did you actually _READ_ any of the site you yourself posted? Part of me is tempted to simply call you a moron, but I don't _really_ think you are, another part is tempted to make smart-assed remarks, and the remaining part is just sad that you're spreading bad information even with better information at your fingertips. So I'm simply asking, "Did you actually _READ_ any of the site you posted?" Well, the Travel Cuba USA site quotes what US citizens can legally go to Cuba. "Americans can travel to Cuba legally if you are a Cuban American, politician, journalist or if you have a research project regarding Cuba. Others including students, religious groups, and humanitarians can apply for a license from the U.S. Treasury Department Office of Foreign Assets Control (OFAC)" I don't think that covers too many bone fishermen and tourists who want a tan on the beach. It is impossible for anyone under American jurisdiction to travel to Cuba legally as a tourist, Um, excuse me, there, Arthur Frommer, but what you seem to be attempting to say is wrong - IAC, yes, an American citizen can legally travel to Cuba as a tourist. As usual, you don't know what the **** you're talking about, but that doesn't stop you from bloviating. What am I going to believe: what's reported in the South Florida Sun-Sentinel, what's stated unambiguously as policy by the President and the Justice Department, or what's claimed by a ROFF ****head who's famous for being wrong about nearly everything and has the track record to prove it? ahahahahahahahahahahaha! priceless :-) |
Bone Fish, Permit etc.
On Wed, 22 Nov 2006 09:02:07 -0600, wrote:
On Wed, 22 Nov 2006 14:39:57 GMT, rw wrote: wrote: On Tue, 21 Nov 2006 22:47:35 -0600, Cyli wrote: On Tue, 21 Nov 2006 19:05:53 -0600, wrote: It ****es me off to no end that my government, in its infinite wisdom, and of course considering the influence of the Cuban exile community in the swing state of Florida, does not permit me to travel to Cuba under penalty of law. Where do these pipsqueak politicians get off telling me where I can and can't go? Did you actually _READ_ any of the site you yourself posted? Part of me is tempted to simply call you a moron, but I don't _really_ think you are, another part is tempted to make smart-assed remarks, and the remaining part is just sad that you're spreading bad information even with better information at your fingertips. So I'm simply asking, "Did you actually _READ_ any of the site you posted?" Well, the Travel Cuba USA site quotes what US citizens can legally go to Cuba. "Americans can travel to Cuba legally if you are a Cuban American, politician, journalist or if you have a research project regarding Cuba. Others including students, religious groups, and humanitarians can apply for a license from the U.S. Treasury Department Office of Foreign Assets Control (OFAC)" I don't think that covers too many bone fishermen and tourists who want a tan on the beach. What you posted above doesn't cover such. So what? That isn't the regs. Heck, sponsored travelers don't even have to contact Treasury. The regs are against spending money in Cuba ("Trading with the enemy"), not travel (IOW, there are no "Tanning on the enemy's beach" regs). from: http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/1108-07.htm Published on Saturday, November 8, 2003 by the South Florida Sun-Sentinel U.S. Launches Crackdown on Cuba Travel by Rafael Lorente Absolutely. Spot on. You should never go to Cuba - it's illegal. And besides, the Bush administration will have you drawn and quartered for even considering it. Cuba ba-a-a-a-ad, Common Dreams go-o-o-o-od. Perhaps I was a bit hasty with regard to you not actually being a moron. pathetic /daytripper (that's what happens when you believe everything you see on Fox |
Bone Fish, Permit etc.
On Wed, 22 Nov 2006 11:37:35 -0500, daytripper
wrote: On Wed, 22 Nov 2006 09:02:07 -0600, wrote: On Wed, 22 Nov 2006 14:39:57 GMT, rw wrote: wrote: On Tue, 21 Nov 2006 22:47:35 -0600, Cyli wrote: On Tue, 21 Nov 2006 19:05:53 -0600, wrote: It ****es me off to no end that my government, in its infinite wisdom, and of course considering the influence of the Cuban exile community in the swing state of Florida, does not permit me to travel to Cuba under penalty of law. Where do these pipsqueak politicians get off telling me where I can and can't go? Did you actually _READ_ any of the site you yourself posted? Part of me is tempted to simply call you a moron, but I don't _really_ think you are, another part is tempted to make smart-assed remarks, and the remaining part is just sad that you're spreading bad information even with better information at your fingertips. So I'm simply asking, "Did you actually _READ_ any of the site you posted?" Well, the Travel Cuba USA site quotes what US citizens can legally go to Cuba. "Americans can travel to Cuba legally if you are a Cuban American, politician, journalist or if you have a research project regarding Cuba. Others including students, religious groups, and humanitarians can apply for a license from the U.S. Treasury Department Office of Foreign Assets Control (OFAC)" I don't think that covers too many bone fishermen and tourists who want a tan on the beach. What you posted above doesn't cover such. So what? That isn't the regs. Heck, sponsored travelers don't even have to contact Treasury. The regs are against spending money in Cuba ("Trading with the enemy"), not travel (IOW, there are no "Tanning on the enemy's beach" regs). from: http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/1108-07.htm Published on Saturday, November 8, 2003 by the South Florida Sun-Sentinel U.S. Launches Crackdown on Cuba Travel by Rafael Lorente Absolutely. Spot on. You should never go to Cuba - it's illegal. And besides, the Bush administration will have you drawn and quartered for even considering it. Cuba ba-a-a-a-ad, Common Dreams go-o-o-o-od. Perhaps I was a bit hasty with regard to you not actually being a moron. pathetic /daytripper (that's what happens when you believe everything you see on Fox OK, F. Lee, let's again take a hypothetical US traveler and have him boat over to Cuba and go to a hypothetical place, the Harina Memingway International Yacht Club, where he docks for free and has a drink or two with a member, who naturally puts everything on his account. He spends no money and provides no service(s) of any kind while there. What US Dept of the Treasury Reg. would you suggest that our traveler has broken? HTH, R |
Bone Fish, Permit etc.
rw wrote: It is impossible for anyone under American jurisdiction to travel to Cuba legally as a tourist, unless perhaps he or she made a substantial contribution to the Republican Party. I got a travel permit back in 1999, no checks were written to either party. The purpose was specific to "verifying bass fishing opportunities" as part of a credentialed group. (Good fishing btw). Didn't you have an article published in a national ff mag a few years back. Could kind of make you a free lance journalist, even if you can't go as a tourist. g |
Bone Fish, Permit etc.
Wayne Knight wrote:
rw wrote: It is impossible for anyone under American jurisdiction to travel to Cuba legally as a tourist, unless perhaps he or she made a substantial contribution to the Republican Party. I got a travel permit back in 1999, no checks were written to either party. The purpose was specific to "verifying bass fishing opportunities" as part of a credentialed group. (Good fishing btw). Didn't you have an article published in a national ff mag a few years back. Could kind of make you a free lance journalist, even if you can't go as a tourist. g I actually thought about that. I was also an elected politician at the time and might have qualified that way, but either one would have been a long shot, and in any case I didn't want to go by myself. -- Cut "to the chase" for my email address. |
Bone Fish, Permit etc.
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Bone Fish, Permit etc.
"rw" wrote in message ink.net... Wayne Knight wrote: rw wrote: It is impossible for anyone under American jurisdiction to travel to Cuba legally as a tourist, unless perhaps he or she made a substantial contribution to the Republican Party. I got a travel permit back in 1999, no checks were written to either party. The purpose was specific to "verifying bass fishing opportunities" as part of a credentialed group. (Good fishing btw). Didn't you have an article published in a national ff mag a few years back. Could kind of make you a free lance journalist, even if you can't go as a tourist. g I actually thought about that. I was also an elected politician at the time and might have qualified that way, but either one would have been a long shot, and in any case I didn't want to go by myself. -- Cut "to the chase" for my email address. I like Fidel Castro and his beard! Fred |
Bone Fish, Permit etc.
On 22 Nov 2006 13:05:27 -0800, "rb608" wrote:
wrote: OK, F. Lee, let's again take a hypothetical US traveler snip What US Dept of the Treasury Reg. would you suggest that our traveler has broken? You changed the question. Er, no, I didn't. I only asked Dave the single question. Your initial premise was, "Does this mean I think that some yuppie dip**** Hemingwannabe -let's call our hypothetical traveler Woyal Rulff - can jump a jet, be his silly-assed ugly-American self for a coupla-three weeks, and waltz back through Miami after using his iFruit laptop in a Havana internet cafe to post a brag to ROFF about how all the Cuban chicks are diggin' his groovin' style?" And you've determined that this relates to the question I asked Dave in what fashion? rw answered this with a recent article from the Florida Sentinel, describing the relevent issues and possible penalties in some detail, for which you called him a moron. Actually, no, the article didn't, and no, I didn't, either. In your latest (ridiculous) hypothetical, I'll assume the answer is none, though anyone who would boat 180 miles round trip to sponge a free drink is probably the real moron. Suppose the drinks are REALLY good...like big honkin' martinis or something? Joe F. Um, I'll call your attention to this little part: "The letter says McCarthy _violated the Trading with the Enemy Act by spending about $750 for a Cuba vacation package_." (Emp. Add.) You might also note that in my reply to Cyli, to which Stevie posted the entire Sun-Sentinel piece, I said: "The regs are against spending money in Cuba ("Trading with the enemy"), not travel (IOW, there are no "Tanning on the enemy's beach" regs)." HTH, R |
Bone Fish, Permit etc.
On Wed, 22 Nov 2006 20:38:01 GMT, rw
wrote: Wayne Knight wrote: rw wrote: It is impossible for anyone under American jurisdiction to travel to Cuba legally as a tourist, unless perhaps he or she made a substantial contribution to the Republican Party. I got a travel permit back in 1999, no checks were written to either party. The purpose was specific to "verifying bass fishing opportunities" as part of a credentialed group. (Good fishing btw). Didn't you have an article published in a national ff mag a few years back. Could kind of make you a free lance journalist, even if you can't go as a tourist. g I actually thought about that. I was also an elected politician at the time and might have qualified that way, but either one would have been a long shot, and in any case I didn't want to go by myself. BWAHAHAHAHAHA!!! An "elected politician," huh? Anyhoo, so it doesn't really have anything to do with the law or the Bush Administration - Mayor McCheesy is just a big ol' pussy... Highly amused, R |
Bone Fish, Permit etc.
wrote: On Tue, 21 Nov 2006 22:47:35 -0600, Cyli wrote: On Tue, 21 Nov 2006 19:05:53 -0600, wrote: It ****es me off to no end that my government, in its infinite wisdom, and of course considering the influence of the Cuban exile community in the swing state of Florida, does not permit me to travel to Cuba under penalty of law. Where do these pipsqueak politicians get off telling me where I can and can't go? Did you actually _READ_ any of the site you yourself posted? Part of me is tempted to simply call you a moron, but I don't _really_ think you are, another part is tempted to make smart-assed remarks, and the remaining part is just sad that you're spreading bad information even with better information at your fingertips. So I'm simply asking, "Did you actually _READ_ any of the site you posted?" Well, the Travel Cuba USA site quotes what US citizens can legally go to Cuba. "Americans can travel to Cuba legally if you are a Cuban American, politician, journalist or if you have a research project regarding Cuba. Others including students, religious groups, and humanitarians can apply for a license from the U.S. Treasury Department Office of Foreign Assets Control (OFAC)" I don't think that covers too many bone fishermen and tourists who want a tan on the beach. What you posted above doesn't cover such. So what? That isn't the regs. Heck, sponsored travelers don't even have to contact Treasury. The regs are against spending money in Cuba ("Trading with the enemy"), not travel (IOW, there are no "Tanning on the enemy's beach" regs). First and foremost, I'm not giving travel advice, and certainly not giving legal opinion, just observing that _everyone_ involved tacitly understands that the regs, aside from being silly, are _almost_ unenforceable. For example, a fully-sponsored traveler need not even contact Treasury about a trip, but they _may_ be _asked_ to sign a statement that says the trip was fully-sponsored and show that they don't have any receipts for expenditures while in Cuba. True enough, if they want to bring back a suitcase full of cigars, rum, and cigarettes like everyone else, but call them "gifts," they _may_ be then required to apply for a license. Obviously, given the copious record-keeping and video surveillance of your average bodega, combined with ready cooperation they'd obviously receive, it'd be a snap for Treasury to send over a few of it's agents, who really aren't very busy anyway, to prove some tourist spent a few bucks in Cuba. And you average US Attorney can't wait for those agents return with what will undoubtedly be a career-making case. And they'll be all the more excited given the challenging nature of the case - no evidence, no witnesses, very iffy laws, a jury whose primary question will be "why in the **** am I missing my soap operas for THIS?," and finally, the real enticement, any number of well-funded groups with lawyers leaking out of their ears who have repeatedly and publicly stated that they'll provide any and all legal assistance, wanted or not, to anyone ever charged with Cuban travel-expenditure-related violations. IOW, these are adults with real jobs to do, and some tourist buying daiquiris in Cuba ain't real high on the priority list. Does this mean I think that some yuppie dip**** Hemingwannabe - let's call our hypothetical traveler Woyal Rulff - can jump a jet, be his silly-assed ugly-American self for a coupla-three weeks, and waltz back through Miami after using his iFruit laptop in a Havana internet cafe to post a brag to ROFF about how all the Cuban chicks are diggin' his groovin' style? Who knows? And who cares? OTOH, I've not heard of a single case of an average traveler getting anything more than the merest of "boilerplate" hassles, and even that is rare. Simply put, should a US citizen travel to Cuba, let's just say that they won't come as a shock or surprise to anyone, and unless they take steps to avoid doing so, they are likely to run to other USers...heck, they won't even have a problem with the money... Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz Wolfgang who, breaking with tradition, read only the first sentence.....or facsimile thereof. |
Bone Fish, Permit etc.
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Bone Fish, Permit etc.
rw wrote: wrote: On Tue, 21 Nov 2006 22:47:35 -0600, Cyli wrote: On Tue, 21 Nov 2006 19:05:53 -0600, wrote: It ****es me off to no end that my government, in its infinite wisdom, and of course considering the influence of the Cuban exile community in the swing state of Florida, does not permit me to travel to Cuba under penalty of law. Where do these pipsqueak politicians get off telling me where I can and can't go? Did you actually _READ_ any of the site you yourself posted? Part of me is tempted to simply call you a moron, but I don't _really_ think you are, another part is tempted to make smart-assed remarks, and the remaining part is just sad that you're spreading bad information even with better information at your fingertips. So I'm simply asking, "Did you actually _READ_ any of the site you posted?" Well, the Travel Cuba USA site quotes what US citizens can legally go to Cuba. "Americans can travel to Cuba legally if you are a Cuban American, politician, journalist or if you have a research project regarding Cuba. Others including students, religious groups, and humanitarians can apply for a license from the U.S. Treasury Department Office of Foreign Assets Control (OFAC)" I don't think that covers too many bone fishermen and tourists who want a tan on the beach. What you posted above doesn't cover such. So what? That isn't the regs. Heck, sponsored travelers don't even have to contact Treasury. The regs are against spending money in Cuba ("Trading with the enemy"), not travel (IOW, there are no "Tanning on the enemy's beach" regs). from: http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/1108-07.htm Published on Saturday, November 8, 2003 by the South Florida Sun-Sentinel U.S. Launches Crackdown on Cuba Travel by Rafael Lorente The Bush administration for the first time is beginning judicial proceedings against dozens of people accused of illegally visiting Cuba, even as Republicans and Democrats in Congress move to end enforcement of the four-decade-old U.S. travel ban to the island. Last month, unauthorized travelers to Cuba started receiving notices from the Treasury Department that they would be required to appear before a judge. The notices went out about the same time the Senate voted to prohibit enforcement of the travel ban. "It's incredible that hearings to enforce fines against Cuba travelers are beginning at a time when Congress and the American people have clearly stated their opposition to the travel ban," said Nancy Chang, an attorney with the New York-based Center for Constitutional Rights. Chang said two of her center's clients have received such notices and could face hearings early next year. Until last month, people accused of illegal travel to Cuba had three choices: pay the fine levied by the Treasury Department, negotiate a settlement for a lower fine or request a hearing before an administrative law judge. Those who requested a hearing found themselves in legal limbo because Treasury's Office of Foreign Assets Control, which enforces the travel ban, did not have any administrative law judges. But earlier this year, the office borrowed several judges from the Justice Department and the Federal Mine Safety and Health Review Commission. Judges for the commission usually settle "legal disputes arising under the Federal Mine Safety and Health Amendments Act of 1977." Fifty cases have been referred to the judges, said Taylor Griffin, a Treasury Department spokesman. "We're going to be really stepping up enforcement," Griffin said. Under the existing travel ban, Americans who do not qualify for one of a limited number of licenses allowing them to legally fly directly from the United States to Cuba usually travel via Canada, Mexico or the Bahamas. If they are caught when they return to the United States, American travelers are often questioned in writing about their trips. Many are later told to pay a hefty fine, often about $7,500. That's exactly what happened to Michael and Ande McCarthy of Port Huron, Mich. The couple spent a week in Cuba in 2001, taking medicines to a Catholic group in Havana, visiting Trinidad on the south side of the island and even giving a ride to a hitchhiking woman and her daughter trying to get a newly purchased fan 30 miles back to their home. An awkward time The McCarthys returned from Cuba through Toronto and started driving home to Michigan. When the couple reached the Blue Water Bridge that connects Canada to Port Huron they were asked by border agents where they had been. Instead of saying Toronto, they said Cuba. "We're for independence, we're for being free to travel," said Michael McCarthy, 56. For their honesty, the couple were sent letters from the Treasury Department asking for $15,000 in fines -- $7,500 each. They asked for hearings and last month Michael McCarthy received a letter signed by Richard Newcomb, the director of the foreign assets control office. The letter says McCarthy violated the Trading with the Enemy Act by spending about $750 for a Cuba vacation package. The letter also says McCarthy violated the law by "purchasing, transporting, and importing cigars, a bottle of rum, and clothing" from Cuba valued at about $150. The move to crack down on travelers such as the McCarthys comes at an awkward time. On Oct. 23, the same day the letter from the government to McCarthy went out, the Senate inserted an amendment into the Transportation and Treasury Department appropriations bill that would prohibit the Bush administration from spending money to enforce the travel ban. The House passed a similar amendment in September. This week, the Senate Foreign Relations Committee voted 13-5 for a separate bill that would overturn the travel ban altogether. Chang, the New York lawyer, thinks the legislation would make the hearings before administrative law judges moot. The filibuster option President Bush has threatened to veto any legislation weakening the travel ban or the embargo against Cuba. The White House and its allies are hoping to avoid a veto by stripping the travel ban provisions from the appropriations bills in a conference being held now to work out differences between the House and Senate versions. This week, two Republicans and two Democrats in the Senate opposed to the president's Cuba policy sent a letter to the conference negotiators demanding that the travel ban provisions remain. Otherwise, the letter said, "we will consider all parliamentary options available to us to respond" -- a not-so-veiled threat of a filibuster. Enforcement of the travel ban has been stronger since Bush took office. Bush benefited from a huge turnout by Cuban-American voters in South Florida who perceived the Clinton administration as soft on Cuba's Fidel Castro and who oppose tourism to the island because it puts money in the coffers of the government. During the 2000 campaign, Bush promised to be tougher on Castro, and enforcing the travel ban was one way to do it. But many of Bush's Cuban-American allies have not been happy with the administration, saying it has not done enough and threatening to withhold support in next year's presidential election. In response, Bush last month announced a new presidential commission on transition to democracy in Cuba and said his administration would crack down on travel to the island, which he said encourages "an illicit sex trade." But within two weeks, the Senate voted to forbid enforcing the travel ban, setting up the current showdown. "There's only one man standing between my wife and myself and our friends who want to make connections [in Cuba]," Michael McCarthy said. "And that man is George W. Bush." Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz Wolfgang who, wallowing in a new found liberty, didn't read a word of it. oddly enough, stevie, while making no more sense than usual, has suddenly become useful. :) |
Bone Fish, Permit etc.
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Bone Fish, Permit etc.
On Wed, 22 Nov 2006 18:08:43 -0500, daytripper
wrote: On Wed, 22 Nov 2006 14:21:31 -0600, wrote: OK, F. Lee, let's again take a hypothetical US traveler and have him boat over to Cuba and go to a hypothetical place, the Harina Memingway International Yacht Club, where he docks for free and has a drink or two with a member, who naturally puts everything on his account. He spends no money and provides no service(s) of any kind while there. What US Dept of the Treasury Reg. would you suggest that our traveler has broken? Oh boy! I've always been good at hypotheticals! Under *that* specific set of circumstances, clearly no UFAC rules would have been broken by your intrepid traveler (the boat owner, otoh, could easily be at risk). But if your cheapskate so much as tips the owner of the boat or bar, he's toast. OK, what law(s) prohibit(s) citizens of the US from traveling to Cuba? And BTW, the regs people are OFAC, as in "Office of Foreign Assets Control," which is a pretty big hint that it's money/assets, not travel, that the regs cover. If you are seriously going to sit there and use that to say that "travel to Cuba isn't illegal", go for it. But I doubt your little well-cooked scenario means anything significant to those in the reality-based community... OK, what is your reality-based experience regarding traveling to Cuba, the regs involved, and the reality of the situation for those who do travel to Cuba? /daytripper (have a happy Turkey Day anyway) You, too. HTH, R |
Bone Fish, Permit etc.
daytripper wrote:
... If you are seriously going to sit there and use that to say that "travel to Cuba isn't illegal", go for it. But I doubt your little well-cooked scenario means anything significant to those in the reality-based community... Lots of people in the reality-based community travel to Cuba. They fly to Jamaica, hire a Jamaican travel agent, go to Cuba then back to Jamaica, then home. No Cuban entry or exit stamp ever appears on their passport and so long as all transactions in Cuba are in cash there's no way for the Treasury Department to prove anything illegal. I know people who do exactly that and yes, technically it's illegal but I have never heard of anyone having any problems whatsoever. If you really want to go to Cuba you can go, just don't tell Uncle Sam where you went when you get back. ;-) /daytripper (have a happy Turkey Day anyway) The bird is in the brine, the potatoes with leeks and thyme are already made and an overnight in the fridge away from oven ready, we're getting ready for the feast here in cornfield land. Happy Thanksgiving ! -- Ken Fortenberry |
Bone Fish, Permit etc.
On Wed, 22 Nov 2006 23:30:00 GMT, Ken Fortenberry
wrote: daytripper wrote: ... If you are seriously going to sit there and use that to say that "travel to Cuba isn't illegal", go for it. But I doubt your little well-cooked scenario means anything significant to those in the reality-based community... Lots of people in the reality-based community travel to Cuba. They fly to Jamaica, hire a Jamaican travel agent, go to Cuba then back to Jamaica, then home. No Cuban entry or exit stamp ever appears on their passport and so long as all transactions in Cuba are in cash there's no way for the Treasury Department to prove anything illegal. I know people who do exactly that and yes, technically it's illegal but I have never heard of anyone having any problems whatsoever. If you really want to go to Cuba you can go, just don't tell Uncle Sam where you went when you get back. ;-) /daytripper (have a happy Turkey Day anyway) The bird is in the brine, the potatoes with leeks and thyme are already made and an overnight in the fridge away from oven ready, we're getting ready for the feast here in cornfield land. Happy Thanksgiving ! There's a difference between not getting caught and breaking the law. I was under the impression it was the legality of travel to Cuba, not how to find a way to make it harder to get caught... /daytripper |
Bone Fish, Permit etc.
daytripper wrote:
On Wed, 22 Nov 2006 23:30:00 GMT, Ken Fortenberry wrote: daytripper wrote: ... If you are seriously going to sit there and use that to say that "travel to Cuba isn't illegal", go for it. But I doubt your little well-cooked scenario means anything significant to those in the reality-based community... Lots of people in the reality-based community travel to Cuba. They fly to Jamaica, hire a Jamaican travel agent, go to Cuba then back to Jamaica, then home. No Cuban entry or exit stamp ever appears on their passport and so long as all transactions in Cuba are in cash there's no way for the Treasury Department to prove anything illegal. I know people who do exactly that and yes, technically it's illegal but I have never heard of anyone having any problems whatsoever. If you really want to go to Cuba you can go, just don't tell Uncle Sam where you went when you get back. ;-) /daytripper (have a happy Turkey Day anyway) The bird is in the brine, the potatoes with leeks and thyme are already made and an overnight in the fridge away from oven ready, we're getting ready for the feast here in cornfield land. Happy Thanksgiving ! There's a difference between not getting caught and breaking the law. I was under the impression it was the legality of travel to Cuba, not how to find a way to make it harder to get caught... Yeah, I don't and won't do it myself and it is definitely illegal but I will admit to placing an order for Cohibas with those intrepid travelers who do go to Cuba. ;-) -- Ken Fortenberry |
Bone Fish, Permit etc.
On Wed, 22 Nov 2006 17:22:07 -0600, wrote:
On Wed, 22 Nov 2006 18:08:43 -0500, daytripper wrote: On Wed, 22 Nov 2006 14:21:31 -0600, wrote: OK, F. Lee, let's again take a hypothetical US traveler and have him boat over to Cuba and go to a hypothetical place, the Harina Memingway International Yacht Club, where he docks for free and has a drink or two with a member, who naturally puts everything on his account. He spends no money and provides no service(s) of any kind while there. What US Dept of the Treasury Reg. would you suggest that our traveler has broken? Oh boy! I've always been good at hypotheticals! Under *that* specific set of circumstances, clearly no UFAC rules would have been broken by your intrepid traveler (the boat owner, otoh, could easily be at risk). But if your cheapskate so much as tips the owner of the boat or bar, he's toast. OK, what law(s) prohibit(s) citizens of the US from traveling to Cuba? And BTW, the regs people are OFAC, as in "Office of Foreign Assets Control," which is a pretty big hint that it's money/assets, not travel, that the regs cover. Yes, I know that. It was a typo, even after spending an hour on the OFAC web site... If you are seriously going to sit there and use that to say that "travel to Cuba isn't illegal", go for it. But I doubt your little well-cooked scenario means anything significant to those in the reality-based community... OK, what is your reality-based experience regarding traveling to Cuba, the regs involved, and the reality of the situation for those who do travel to Cuba? Making the assumption our theoretical traveler could not obtain the necessary status and credentials thereof under the exceptions allowed by the OFAC regs, the legality of travel to Cuba clearly falls in how one manages to do so without spending one penny traceable to said travel. Again, if you are stipulating you can describe manners of travel and existence in Cuba that evade prosecution, that's not a counter argument to the question of legality. I based my position on the reality that I, as a common traveler, cannot conceive of an actual trip with Cuba as the destination that would not run afoul of the letter of the law... /daytripper |
Bone Fish, Permit etc.
On Wed, 22 Nov 2006 18:36:00 -0500, daytripper
wrote: On Wed, 22 Nov 2006 23:30:00 GMT, Ken Fortenberry wrote: daytripper wrote: ... If you are seriously going to sit there and use that to say that "travel to Cuba isn't illegal", go for it. But I doubt your little well-cooked scenario means anything significant to those in the reality-based community... Lots of people in the reality-based community travel to Cuba. They fly to Jamaica, hire a Jamaican travel agent, go to Cuba then back to Jamaica, then home. No Cuban entry or exit stamp ever appears on their passport and so long as all transactions in Cuba are in cash there's no way for the Treasury Department to prove anything illegal. I know people who do exactly that and yes, technically it's illegal but I have never heard of anyone having any problems whatsoever. If you really want to go to Cuba you can go, just don't tell Uncle Sam where you went when you get back. ;-) /daytripper (have a happy Turkey Day anyway) The bird is in the brine, the potatoes with leeks and thyme are already made and an overnight in the fridge away from oven ready, we're getting ready for the feast here in cornfield land. Happy Thanksgiving ! There's a difference between not getting caught and breaking the law. I was under the impression it was the legality of travel to Cuba, not how to find a way to make it harder to get caught... There most certainly is a difference, but the fact remains that the travel itself isn't "illegal," it's the expense of the travel that is regulated insofar as it goes to the benefit of Cuba or Cuban nationals. And FWIW, I think you'll find that exchanging money for Cohibas from those traveling there, legally or otherwise (or to Canada or Europe), is the same violation as going to Cuba yourself and spending illegally. Even _buying_ and smoking them in Canada or Europe is a violation. But that doesn't mean that all possession of Cohibas in the US or by US citizens is illegal. IAC, here's an example, and it's not legal advice. In the previous example, the boater is the boat-owner, and he stocks up in advance so that he _needs not_ spend a penny in Cuba. He is free to share with non-Cuban nationals and they are free to treat him to drinks, dinner, etc. He has not spent money to benefit Cuba or Cuban nationals, and as such, is not afoul of the regs. Should he spend money (actual cash - obviously, using a credit card is not only stupid but against the regs in and of itself, regardless of status of travel), he is afoul of the regs, but in such a case, unless there is something else to draw attention (or he flaunts having done so, etc.), he is in little danger of actually being prosecuted and I'd offer, even less chance of being found afoul. Should he spend and be prosecuted, it won't be because of the travel, it will because of the spending. And aside from that, there are myriad legal ways to spend non-US money in Cuba, but I'll leave that for the research of anyone interested. And finally, the regs change with frequency, so what's true today may not be tomorrow, and as such, travel itself could be illegal or spending legal at the drop of a hat - for example, the $100.00 limit on bring-backs was removed, but confiscation is left to the discretion of the Customs officer. The bottom line is that anything a US citizen does with regard to Cuba they do at their own risk, but travel there, in itself, is not "illegal." TC, R /daytripper |
Bone Fish, Permit etc.
On Wed, 22 Nov 2006 23:41:48 GMT, Ken Fortenberry
wrote: daytripper wrote: On Wed, 22 Nov 2006 23:30:00 GMT, Ken Fortenberry wrote: daytripper wrote: ... If you are seriously going to sit there and use that to say that "travel to Cuba isn't illegal", go for it. But I doubt your little well-cooked scenario means anything significant to those in the reality-based community... Lots of people in the reality-based community travel to Cuba. They fly to Jamaica, hire a Jamaican travel agent, go to Cuba then back to Jamaica, then home. No Cuban entry or exit stamp ever appears on their passport and so long as all transactions in Cuba are in cash there's no way for the Treasury Department to prove anything illegal. I know people who do exactly that and yes, technically it's illegal but I have never heard of anyone having any problems whatsoever. If you really want to go to Cuba you can go, just don't tell Uncle Sam where you went when you get back. ;-) /daytripper (have a happy Turkey Day anyway) The bird is in the brine, the potatoes with leeks and thyme are already made and an overnight in the fridge away from oven ready, we're getting ready for the feast here in cornfield land. Happy Thanksgiving ! There's a difference between not getting caught and breaking the law. I was under the impression it was the legality of travel to Cuba, not how to find a way to make it harder to get caught... Yeah, I don't and won't do it myself and it is definitely illegal but I will admit to placing an order for Cohibas with those intrepid travelers who do go to Cuba. ;-) While I have no doubt that you're just kidding, you might want to review the regs before joking around like that. HTH, R |
Bone Fish, Permit etc.
daytripper wrote: On Wed, 22 Nov 2006 17:22:07 -0600, wrote: On Wed, 22 Nov 2006 18:08:43 -0500, daytripper wrote: On Wed, 22 Nov 2006 14:21:31 -0600, wrote: OK, F. Lee, let's again take a hypothetical US traveler and have him boat over to Cuba and go to a hypothetical place, the Harina Memingway International Yacht Club, where he docks for free and has a drink or two with a member, who naturally puts everything on his account. He spends no money and provides no service(s) of any kind while there. What US Dept of the Treasury Reg. would you suggest that our traveler has broken? Oh boy! I've always been good at hypotheticals! Under *that* specific set of circumstances, clearly no UFAC rules would have been broken by your intrepid traveler (the boat owner, otoh, could easily be at risk). But if your cheapskate so much as tips the owner of the boat or bar, he's toast. OK, what law(s) prohibit(s) citizens of the US from traveling to Cuba? And BTW, the regs people are OFAC, as in "Office of Foreign Assets Control," which is a pretty big hint that it's money/assets, not travel, that the regs cover. Yes, I know that. It was a typo, even after spending an hour on the OFAC web site... If you are seriously going to sit there and use that to say that "travel to Cuba isn't illegal", go for it. But I doubt your little well-cooked scenario means anything significant to those in the reality-based community... OK, what is your reality-based experience regarding traveling to Cuba, the regs involved, and the reality of the situation for those who do travel to Cuba? Making the assumption our theoretical traveler could not obtain the necessary status and credentials thereof under the exceptions allowed by the OFAC regs, the legality of travel to Cuba clearly falls in how one manages to do so without spending one penny traceable to said travel. Again, if you are stipulating you can describe manners of travel and existence in Cuba that evade prosecution, that's not a counter argument to the question of legality. I based my position on the reality that I, as a common traveler, cannot conceive of an actual trip with Cuba as the destination that would not run afoul of the letter of the law... Oh.....well.....sure.....if you're right away gonna inject REALITY into the equation! Wolfgang ****, ANYBODY could do THAT!.....well..... :( |
Bone Fish, Permit etc.
Ken Fortenberry wrote: daytripper wrote: There's a difference between not getting caught and breaking the law. I was under the impression it was the legality of travel to Cuba, not how to find a way to make it harder to get caught... Yeah, I don't and won't do it myself and it is definitely illegal but I will admit to placing an order for Cohibas with those intrepid travelers who do go to Cuba. ;-) You know how those Cohibas get to central Illinois? No? They're brought through the Pisgah national forest on ATVs. Fact. Look it up.....****bag. Wolfgang |
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