Perspective
 

"Wolfgang" wrote in message
...
For the benefit of those who haven't heard yet:

http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/04/16/vte...rss_topstories


Very sad, what a tragedy...

Has anyone heard of a motive?

JT

Perspective
 

"Wolfgang" wrote...


It appears that people will forever find reasons to kill one
another......and it doesn't take much of a reason.


I'm beginning to wonder if the above would be more properly phrased:
"...must forever find reasons not to kill one another" as its pervasiveness
indicates (to me) that the strange desire to kill another human being may
very well be part of the human condition.

Out of this horrific event will of course come the knee-jerk responses. Some
on the left will call for some new way to ban guns. Some on the right will
call for enforcement of laws we already have -- it's a script on both sides.
Those in power will bloviate for a while and some minor, token action will
be taken. But until something real is done (and no, I don't claim to know
what) nothing will change. To be "horrified" (Bush) or to observe a moment
of silence (Pelosi and the House) is simply disingenuous. While I believe
that expressing some sort of sadness is better than being anesthetized to
violence, how can we truly be surprised? More relieved, I think. Relieved
that it happened "there" and not "here."

Dan

Perspective
 

On Apr 16, 3:46 pm, "Daniel-San" (Rot13)
wrote:
"Wolfgang" wrote...

It appears that people will forever find reasons to kill one
another......and it doesn't take much of a reason.

I'm beginning to wonder if the above would be more properly phrased:
"...must forever find reasons not to kill one another" as its pervasiveness
indicates (to me) that the strange desire to kill another human being may
very well be part of the human condition.

Out of this horrific event will of course come the knee-jerk responses. Some
on the left will call for some new way to ban guns. Some on the right will
call for enforcement of laws we already have -- it's a script on both sides.
Those in power will bloviate for a while and some minor, token action will
be taken. But until something real is done (and no, I don't claim to know
what) nothing will change. To be "horrified" (Bush) or to observe a moment
of silence (Pelosi and the House) is simply disingenuous. While I believe
that expressing some sort of sadness is better than being anesthetized to
violence, how can we truly be surprised? More relieved, I think. Relieved
that it happened "there" and not "here."

Dan

I allways though the term "cruel and inhuman" as a applied to the
death penalty was ironic. Noting is more human than killing other
humans.
Someone had a "lemming theory" that applied to human behavior. The
more of us there are the more will kill each other. the rate of
killing will be exponential and the sea we run into may be measured in
megatons'

Perspective
 

For the benefit of those who haven't heard yet:

http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/04/16/vte...rss_topstories

Meanwhile, yesterday, I read this:

"One day in the middle of the twelfth century, a fishmonger brought fresh
fish to sell in the market outside the old church. A free citizen of the
city [Zamora, Spain--w.s.] chose a trout for his dinner. The servant of one
of the nobles grabbed it and said he wanted it for his master, who had
precedence. The ensuing argument did not end until there was a full-scale
war with Portugal, known ever since as El Motín de la Trucha, the mutiny of
the trout.*

It appears that people will forever find reasons to kill one
another......and it doesn't take much of a reason.

Wolfgang
*from "Spanish recognitions: The Roads to the Present" by Mary Lee Settle,
W.W. Norton & Company, 2004, p.107.

Perspective
 

"BJ Conner" wrote in message
oups.com...
On Apr 16, 3:46 pm, "Daniel-San" (Rot13)
wrote:
"Wolfgang" wrote...

It appears that people will forever find reasons to kill one
another......and it doesn't take much of a reason.

I'm beginning to wonder if the above would be more properly phrased:
"...must forever find reasons not to kill one another" as its
pervasiveness
indicates (to me) that the strange desire to kill another human being may
very well be part of the human condition.

Out of this horrific event will of course come the knee-jerk responses.
Some
on the left will call for some new way to ban guns. Some on the right
will
call for enforcement of laws we already have -- it's a script on both
sides.
Those in power will bloviate for a while and some minor, token action
will
be taken. But until something real is done (and no, I don't claim to know
what) nothing will change. To be "horrified" (Bush) or to observe a
moment
of silence (Pelosi and the House) is simply disingenuous. While I believe
that expressing some sort of sadness is better than being anesthetized to
violence, how can we truly be surprised? More relieved, I think. Relieved
that it happened "there" and not "here."

Dan

I allways though the term "cruel and inhuman" as a applied to the
death penalty was ironic. Noting is more human than killing other
humans.
Someone had a "lemming theory" that applied to human behavior. The
more of us there are the more will kill each other. the rate of
killing will be exponential and the sea we run into may be measured in
megatons'


The fine and the time are for the crime, You still have a debt to
society.....an eye for an eye....the death penalty equals maximum organ
donation.

john

Perspective
 

asadi wrote:

The fine and the time are for the crime, You still have a debt to
society.....an eye for an eye....the death penalty equals maximum organ
donation.

John, I've never been able to tell whether you're hilariously
droll or creepy as hell.

I'll tell you one thing though, I hope I never have an organ
that you want donated. ;-)

--
Ken Fortenberry

Perspective
 

"asadi" wrote in news:qnWUh.15453
:

the death penalty equals maximum organ
donation.


I've always thought of it as retroactive abortion.

--
Scott
Reverse name to reply

Perspective
 

"Ken Fortenberry" wrote in message
t...
asadi wrote:
The fine and the time are for the crime, You still have a debt to
society.....an eye for an eye....the death penalty equals maximum organ
donation.

John, I've never been able to tell whether you're hilariously
droll or creepy as hell.

I'll tell you one thing though, I hope I never have an organ
that you want donated. ;-)

--
Ken Fortenberry

Ken, the sign at the license bureau says I can save seven lives by donating
my organs....seven and 'enrich' the lives of some forty odd others.

Too often or in a way that is too accepted nowadays, a man pays the fine and
does a little time and all is well with the world...I just don't think that
'that' is truly paying your debt to society.

After the fine the litterbug should pick up some trash and the robber work
for free...I think such 'repayment for my sins' strictly enforced by dad is
one of the reasons I have the high morals I do.

john

Perspective
 

asadi wrote:
"Ken Fortenberry" wrote:
asadi wrote:
The fine and the time are for the crime, You still have a debt to
society.....an eye for an eye....the death penalty equals maximum organ
donation.

John, I've never been able to tell whether you're hilariously
droll or creepy as hell.

I'll tell you one thing though, I hope I never have an organ
that you want donated. ;-)

Ken, the sign at the license bureau says I can save seven lives by donating
my organs....seven and 'enrich' the lives of some forty odd others.

Voluntary organ donation is a laudable thing for those who believe
in it. If you're an official organ donor in your state, good for you.

Too often or in a way that is too accepted nowadays, a man pays the fine and
does a little time and all is well with the world...I just don't think that
'that' is truly paying your debt to society.

After the fine the litterbug should pick up some trash and the robber work
for free...I think such 'repayment for my sins' strictly enforced by dad is
one of the reasons I have the high morals I do.

Well, if you believe in harvesting organs from executed prisoners
you needn't hurt your arm patting yourself on the back for having
"high morals".

--
Ken Fortenberry

Perspective
 

"Ken Fortenberry" wrote in message
et...


Well, if you believe in harvesting organs from executed prisoners
you needn't hurt your arm patting yourself on the back for having
"high morals".

Amazing. And some of you STILL think this is a human being......right?

Wolfgang

Perspective
 

"Ken Fortenberry"

Well, if you believe in harvesting organs from executed prisoners
you needn't hurt your arm patting yourself on the back for having
"high morals".

--
Ken Fortenberry

NO, I do not believe in harvesting organs from executed criminals...I
believe in that criminal paying his debt. His fine and time were for the
crime right? Where in that has he paid his debt?

He took and life and he should save a live to repay the debt....kinda like
old contrare in 'Little Big Man.' If the crime was especially heinous, I
would not harvest any organs from him, I would 'take' two organs..a lung and
appendix...and some of those who kill families and groups, well, the
criminal could go free after I took his heart and liver....

This is not a morbid, gruesome thought. ..but a long overdue consideration
of a victims rights and a criminal's responsibilities...

You know, at thirty years old, I could have cooked the books on a company,
stole millions and ruined the lives of hard working good hearted people,
forcing them into to poverty and a wall mart greeters coat until they die,
done ten years at a white collar prison with cable TV and a tennis court,
been out for fifteen years and be a wealthy man...would I have paid my debt?

just a thought...........john

Perspective
 

asadi wrote:
"Ken Fortenberry"
Well, if you believe in harvesting organs from executed prisoners
you needn't hurt your arm patting yourself on the back for having
"high morals".

NO, I do not believe in harvesting organs from executed criminals...I
believe in that criminal paying his debt. His fine and time were for the
crime right? Where in that has he paid his debt?

I consider time spent behind bars as adequate payment for
any debt to society and don't require an additional pound
of flesh. I'm all for creative sentencing as in your example
of sentencing a litterbug to pick up trash but I'm opposed
to capital punishment. Here in Illinois we've released as
many prisoners from death row after DNA proved them innocent
as we've executed. There's something tragically wrong with
the system.

He took and life and he should save a live to repay the debt....kinda like
old contrare in 'Little Big Man.' If the crime was especially heinous, I
would not harvest any organs from him, I would 'take' two organs..a lung and
appendix...and some of those who kill families and groups, well, the
criminal could go free after I took his heart and liver....

This is not a morbid, gruesome thought. ..but a long overdue consideration
of a victims rights and a criminal's responsibilities...

Your "victim's rights" sounds a whole lot like vengeance. As
for the "taking" of organs as retribution that certainly is
morbid and gruesome. If you force prisoners about to be executed
to consent to organ donation it is only a matter of time before
some poor innocent is railroaded into the death chamber to provide
an organ for the rich and powerful. It will happen, it's inevitable.

You know, at thirty years old, I could have cooked the books on a company,
stole millions and ruined the lives of hard working good hearted people,
forcing them into to poverty and a wall mart greeters coat until they die,
done ten years at a white collar prison with cable TV and a tennis court,
been out for fifteen years and be a wealthy man...would I have paid my debt?

Yes, you'd have paid your debt to society. Would it be just ?
I don't know, our legal system ain't never had much of anything
to do with justice.

--
Ken Fortenberry

Perspective
 

"Ken Fortenberry" wrote in message
.. .
asadi wrote:
"Ken Fortenberry"
Well, if you believe in harvesting organs from executed prisoners
you needn't hurt your arm patting yourself on the back for having
"high morals".

NO, I do not believe in harvesting organs from executed criminals...I
believe in that criminal paying his debt. His fine and time were for the
crime right? Where in that has he paid his debt?

I consider time spent behind bars as adequate payment for
any debt to society and don't require an additional pound
of flesh. I'm all for creative sentencing as in your example
of sentencing a litterbug to pick up trash but I'm opposed
to capital punishment. Here in Illinois we've released as
many prisoners from death row after DNA proved them innocent
as we've executed. There's something tragically wrong with
the system.

He took and life and he should save a live to repay the debt....kinda
like old contrare in 'Little Big Man.' If the crime was especially
heinous, I would not harvest any organs from him, I would 'take' two
organs..a lung and appendix...and some of those who kill families and
groups, well, the criminal could go free after I took his heart and
liver....

This is not a morbid, gruesome thought. ..but a long overdue
consideration of a victims rights and a criminal's responsibilities...

Your "victim's rights" sounds a whole lot like vengeance.

Which, if it were outmoded and/or unpopular in the world as a whole (or even
in this country) would make the place look a whole lot different than it
does now. For that matter, if it didn't loom large in your own mind you
would have a great deal less trouble pretending convincingly to be an adult
human being.

As
for the "taking" of organs as retribution that certainly is
morbid and gruesome.

By the time the organs are harvested, the retribution would already have
been carried out. Whether retribution is either morbid or gruesome is a
matter that would likely make for a lively and perhaps even valuable
discussion.....among adults who care about such things. You disqualify
yourself on both counts. Harvesting organs, in general, is certainly
considered both morbid and gruesome by many. This, too, might be
interesting fodder for consideration among people who cared about such
things and who are capable of articulating whatever might be on their minds.
Once again, you eliminate yourself both ways.

If you force prisoners about to be executed
to consent to organ donation

I'm pretty sure that John isn't much concerned about their consent which, in
any case, can't be forced.

it is only a matter of time before
some poor innocent is railroaded into the death chamber to provide
an organ for the rich and powerful. It will happen, it's inevitable.

No kidding? Wow, you're getting to be about as good at chocolate and
vanilla revelations as dicklet.

You know, at thirty years old, I could have cooked the books on a
company, stole millions and ruined the lives of hard working good hearted
people, forcing them into to poverty and a wall mart greeters coat until
they die, done ten years at a white collar prison with cable TV and a
tennis court, been out for fifteen years and be a wealthy man...would I
have paid my debt?

Yes, you'd have paid your debt to society.

It's interesting to speculate on how you might have answered that bit
differently if you understood what John said.....or cared.

Would it be just ?

No.

I don't know,

This should go into some sort of special archive. It is among the very few
true things you've said here in years. On the other hand, everybody else
already knew that, so it's hardly worth saving for its own sake.

our legal system ain't never had much of anything
to do with justice.

Ah! Back on familiar ground......rank stupidity! :)

Wolfgang
BOO!

Perspective
 

"Ken Fortenberry" wrote in message
.. .

Missed this part the first time around. :)

I consider time spent behind bars as adequate payment for
any debt to society

Sort of makes a boy wonder how the value of a debt to society is arrived at.
Not that it really matters. For example, six months in prison DEFINITELY
qualifies as time behind bars. Thus, it is "adequate payment for any debt
to society." Hm......come to think of it, overnight in the county jail also
qualifies as time behind bars.....right? So, anybody who spends a night in
jail has paid his or her debt to society......regardless of the infraction,
ainna?

and don't require an additional pound of flesh.

OOH! OOH! Literary allusion! Well, it LOOKS like one anyway.

I'm all for creative sentencing

No, you are ALL for whatever you can momentarily convince yourself is going
to raise your stature in the eyes of whatever audience will sit still long
enough to read your crap. Unfortunately, you've got an uncanny ability to
abuse people indiscriminately and still have a lot of them come to your
defense.

as in your example
of sentencing a litterbug to pick up trash

Yeah, boy, you are hard-core!

but I'm opposed to capital punishment.

Of course you are. It's the popular position just now.

Here in Illinois we've released as
many prisoners from death row after DNA proved them innocent
as we've executed.

But you don't care about that.

There's something tragically wrong with the system.

Lucky guess.

Wolfgang

Perspective
 

"Ken Fortenberry"
I don't know, our legal system ain't never had much of anything
to do with justice.

--
Ken Fortenberry

Ken, I look forward to continuing this debate in a more appropriate setting.
Beers in hand, around the fire, where we have our time on the
dias,,,dais...you know, where you can stand up and wave your arms.....

I hope it's soon...

john

Perspective
 

"Wolfgang"
I'm pretty sure that John isn't much concerned about their consent which,
in any case, can't be forced.



Now Wolf, you know the dead can not consent nor refuse anything, besides,
much like cloning this has been debated to a tee in sic-fi of years ago...

I have no mouth and I must scream....

john

Perspective
 

asadi wrote:
"Ken Fortenberry"
I don't know, our legal system ain't never had much of anything
to do with justice.

Ken, I look forward to continuing this debate in a more appropriate setting.
Beers in hand, around the fire, where we have our time on the
dias,,,dais...you know, where you can stand up and wave your arms.....

I hope it's soon...

Sounds good to me John. I'm thinking about a trip to the
Holy Waters, the Au Sable in Michigan, sometime soon after
the 9th of May. Have canoe, will travel. I think Kipper the
Hound will get along famously with your new pup (and probably
teach him some spoiled rotten dog tricks ;-).

--
Ken Fortenberry