waterboarding
 

http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/...d.php?t=448717

It's torture. Plain and simple.

I am so disgusted with our government.

--
Cut "to the chase" for my email address.

waterboarding
 

On Dec 28, 7:24*pm, rw wrote:
http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/...d.php?t=448717

It's torture. Plain and simple.

I am so disgusted with our government.

--
Cut "to the chase" for my email address.



Someday we'll see video of some Amreican GI being waterboarded and who
knows what else. Is Bush going to tell his family that isn't torture.
535 people and note with the balls to do what needs to be done.

waterboarding
 

Is that some new fly fishing product I missed?

Time to make more bombs? or leave this darn country?
--
Bill Kiene

Kiene's Fly Shop
Sacramento, CA, USA

Web site: www.kiene.com


"rw" wrote in message
...
http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/...d.php?t=448717

It's torture. Plain and simple.

I am so disgusted with our government.

--
Cut "to the chase" for my email address.

waterboarding
 

On Fri, 28 Dec 2007 19:24:29 -0800, rw
wrote:

http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/...d.php?t=448717

Oh, well, as long as some anonymous poster on the internet makes claims,
that's all the information or proof anyone should need...

It's torture. Plain and simple.

Whatever it is, Gracie, it is neither "plain" or "simple"...trust me or
don't...

I am so disgusted with our government.

Like most folks, I'm sure they aren't pleased with a shrill Dale
Evans-wannabe such as yourself, either...

And in your previous whines about "torture," IIRC, you (and others) took
the position that it ("torture") simply didn't work as an effective
information-gathering method. Based on much of the recent hoopla and
your own cited site, waterboarding is a particularly effective method of
obtaining information that causes no actual physical harm...so, were you
(and others) wrong about "torture" being effective or are you wrong
about waterboarding being "torture?"

Naturally, in either case, you'll now publicly and unequivocally state
that you'd not want _any_ method used to gather information that even
_might_ be construed by _anyone_ as "torture" should you or anyone about
whom you care be in danger, right?

I mean, ask 'em nicely who or what their friends are planning to blow
up, and if they aren't feeling up to talking, get 'em a lawyer, some ice
creme, and if they ask politely enough, a "Lil' Jihadist Chemistry Set"
and a loaded weapon...

R

waterboarding
 

On Fri, 28 Dec 2007 19:24:29 -0800, rw
wrote:

It's torture. Plain and simple.

I am so disgusted with our government.

Put it this way:

If waterboarding would save the life of your wife, children, and
boyfriend, would you be in favor of it? Yeah, me too.

Torture is pain. There is no pain in waterboarding. And it lasts
only 25 seconds. If it saves lives, waterboard away.

Nice troll, btw. d;o)

LaCourse

waterboarding
 

On Sat, 29 Dec 2007 08:38:45 -0500, Dave LaCourse
wrote:

On Fri, 28 Dec 2007 19:24:29 -0800, rw
wrote:

It's torture. Plain and simple.

I am so disgusted with our government.

Put it this way:

If waterboarding would save the life of your wife, children, and
boyfriend, would you be in favor of it? Yeah, me too.

Torture is pain.

Have you even been "tortured?" (and no, reading posts on ROFF doesn't
count...)

There is no pain in waterboarding.

Have you ever been waterboarded?

And it lasts only 25 seconds.

Not necessarily. It depends on the person being boarded and the
technique(s) used.

If it saves lives, waterboard away.

On that, we agree.

Nice troll, btw. d;o)

Hmmm...much like the definition of "torture," the definition of "nice"
seems to be a rather hard-to-pin-down target...

Happy Holidays,
R

LaCourse

waterboarding
 

On Sat, 29 Dec 2007 13:50:41 GMT, wrote:

Have you even been "tortured?"

Yes!! While waiting for an oil change for my car, I was forced to
watch "View" starring fat-face-whats-her-name. shudder

waterboarding
 

"Dave LaCourse" wrote in message
If waterboarding would save the life of your wife, children, and
boyfriend, would you be in favor of it? Yeah, me too.

Turn that around. Suppose your wife or child was mistakenly taken captive
by a foreign government who thought they had valuable information. Would it
be okay if they were waterboarded? Hell no; and that's the same outrage you
should have when our country does it.

With all due respect, the false choice you posit is bull****. It assumes
that you *know* you have the right person, you *know* they possess the
information you seek, you *know* that information is valid and timely, and
you *know* they will give you the correct information under torture. But,
the fact is, you can know none of that with certainty before you begin the
torture. Further, even with information you glean in that manner, you can't
be certain it is truth or made up to stop the torture. IOW, you're going on
an inhuman fishing expedition (OBROFF).

Torture is one of those crimes that simply cannot be excused. There can be
no double standard. If we can do it to them, they can do it to us. If we
can do it to save our children, they can do it to our children with the same
moral authority. I cannot excuse or condone that.

Joe F.

waterboarding
 

On Sat, 29 Dec 2007 14:08:59 GMT, "rb608"
wrote:

Torture is one of those crimes that simply cannot be excused.

I agree. Our troops in just about every war have suffered torture to
some extent, whether it be beatings, food/water deprivation, or
physical harm.

There can be
no double standard.

There is no double standard. They practice REAL torture. Ask John
McCain.

If we can do it to them, they can do it to us.

Count on it, my friend, up to and including beheading. That is a
given. If only they used *just* waterboarding.

If we
can do it to save our children, they can do it to our children with the same
moral authority.

Again, if only if was "just" waterboarding. They torture for the pure
pleasure of it. If I was a POW, I would pray that only waterboarding
was used.

I cannot excuse or condone that.

Psychological "torture" is common. Sleep deprivation. Constand loud
music/sounds. Waterboarding is psychological. There is NO physical
harm. And, it is affective. If it saves lives (and it has regardless
what you say), then I am for it.

eopcfm

Dave

waterboarding
 

"Dave LaCourse" wrote in message
Psychological "torture" is common. Sleep deprivation. Constand loud
music/sounds.

Hey, there's no need to bring my family into this. ;-)

Joe F.

waterboarding
 

"rb608" wrote in message
news:%xsdj.6464$oh5.2546@trndny08...
"Dave LaCourse" wrote in message
If waterboarding would save the life of your wife, children, and
boyfriend, would you be in favor of it? Yeah, me too.

Turn that around. Suppose your wife or child was mistakenly taken captive
by a foreign government who thought they had valuable information. Would
it be okay if they were waterboarded? Hell no; and that's the same
outrage you should have when our country does it.

With all due respect, the false choice you posit is bull****. It assumes
that you *know* you have the right person, you *know* they possess the
information you seek, you *know* that information is valid and timely, and
you *know* they will give you the correct information under torture. But,
the fact is, you can know none of that with certainty before you begin the
torture. Further, even with information you glean in that manner, you
can't be certain it is truth or made up to stop the torture. IOW, you're
going on an inhuman fishing expedition (OBROFF).

Torture is one of those crimes that simply cannot be excused. There can
be no double standard. If we can do it to them, they can do it to us. If
we can do it to save our children, they can do it to our children with the
same moral authority. I cannot excuse or condone that.

Joe F.

sure beats beheading

waterboarding
 

Dave LaCourse wrote:

There is no double standard. They practice REAL torture. Ask John
McCain.

Ask John McCain how he feels about waterboarding. He's the only one of
the pathetic bunch of Republican candidates who has the guts to call it
for what it is.

If waterboarding isn't torture why did the US prosecute and convict a
Japanese officer of war crimes for doing it?

Now we know who in ROFF is in favor of torture and who is against it. No
surprises.

Why did the CIA destroy the tapes?

--
Cut "to the chase" for my email address.

waterboarding
 

"rw" wrote in message
Why did the CIA destroy the tapes?

I'm confused. I thought the NFL destroyed the tapes?

Joe F.

waterboarding
 

rb608 wrote:
"rw" wrote in message

Why did the CIA destroy the tapes?


I'm confused. I thought the NFL destroyed the tapes?

Joe F.



Wrong tapes.

--
Cut "to the chase" for my email address.

waterboarding
 

On Sat, 29 Dec 2007 09:21:48 -0500, Dave LaCourse
wrote:


Psychological "torture" is common. Sleep deprivation. Constand loud
music/sounds. Waterboarding is psychological. There is NO physical
harm. And, it is affective.

Um, "affective?" That's interesting...even Freudian...

HTH,
R
....and it's effective, too...


If it saves lives (and it has regardless
what you say), then I am for it.

eopcfm

Dave

waterboarding
 

On Sat, 29 Dec 2007 15:12:57 GMT, "rb608"
wrote:

"rw" wrote in message
Why did the CIA destroy the tapes?

I'm confused. I thought the NFL destroyed the tapes?

Because they showed ASU (no, the other one) waterboarding
Patriots...come on, man, pay attention...

HTH,
R

Joe F.

waterboarding
 

On Sat, 29 Dec 2007 06:53:59 -0800, rw
wrote:

Dave LaCourse wrote:

There is no double standard. They practice REAL torture. Ask John
McCain.

Ask John McCain how he feels about waterboarding. He's the only one of
the pathetic bunch of Republican candidates who has the guts to call it
for what it is.

If waterboarding isn't torture why did the US prosecute and convict a
Japanese officer of war crimes for doing it?

The US didn't prosecute him (solely, if at all) for "waterboarding,"
they prosecuted him for a number of types of torture, including "water
torture" (that probably _included_ but was not limited to
waterboarding), burning, beating, etc. of POWs and civilians, including
children (done solely for amusement) as well as stealing Red Cross
packages intended for POWs. And they didn't hang him, he was sentenced
to 10-20 years at hard labor.

Now we know who in ROFF is in favor of torture and who is against it. No
surprises.

I seriously any group of "we" that includes "you" knows much about much
in the real world outside of a sheltered academic environ...

And there "we" are,
R

Why did the CIA destroy the tapes?

waterboarding
 

waterboarding
 

"JR" wrote in message
...
wrote:

...and it's effective, too...

Yeah? How do you know?

I believe Richard was correcting the ROFF's own Theo-Neocon's grammar.

Davie, the illiterate expert on Native American ancestories and torture
techniques, stated that the act of torture via *waterboarding* was
"affective."

Op

waterboarding
 

On Sat, 29 Dec 2007 12:41:27 -0500, "Opus--Mark H. Bowen"
wrote:

Davie, the illiterate expert on Native American ancestories and torture
techniques, stated th

Screw you, fat and ugly redneck.

waterboarding
 

Opus--Mark H. Bowen wrote:
"JR" wrote
wrote:

...and it's effective, too...

Yeah? How do you know?

I believe Richard was correcting the ROFF's own Theo-Neocon's grammar.

I got that, Op. Way I read it, though, after correcting Dave, he
went on to say the technique itself was effective.

Richard, if that's what you meant, how do you know?

waterboarding
 

JR wrote:
Opus--Mark H. Bowen wrote:

"JR" wrote

wrote:

...and it's effective, too...


Yeah? How do you know?


I believe Richard was correcting the ROFF's own Theo-Neocon's grammar.


I got that, Op. Way I read it, though, after correcting Dave, he went
on to say the technique itself was effective.

Richard, if that's what you meant, how do you know?

I have little doubt that it's effective to get the victim to say
anything necessary to stop it.

--
Cut "to the chase" for my email address.

waterboarding
 

rw wrote:
JR wrote:

Opus--Mark H. Bowen wrote:

"JR" wrote

wrote:

...and it's effective, too...



Yeah? How do you know?



I believe Richard was correcting the ROFF's own Theo-Neocon's grammar.



I got that, Op. Way I read it, though, after correcting Dave, he went
on to say the technique itself was effective.

Richard, if that's what you meant, how do you know?


I have little doubt that it's effective to get the victim to say
anything necessary to stop it.


hell...when i merely watched a purported demonstration of it on some
teevee news program, i confessed to rachel all sorts of **** i never did...

it's ridiculous for anyone to claim or suggest it isn't torture...

jeff

waterboarding
 

jeff wrote:

it's ridiculous for anyone to claim or suggest it isn't torture...

It's crazy, isn't it? Anyone who could convince themselves that it isn't
torture could convince themselves of anything. That explains Bush's
nonzero approval rating.

During the American Revolution General Washington ordered that prisoners
of war be treated humanely, even though the English often used, frankly,
terrorist tactics. No doubt this order was sometimes disobeyed, but it
was the policy.

This country has lost its way.

--
Cut "to the chase" for my email address.

waterboarding
 

"JR" wrote in message
...
Opus--Mark H. Bowen wrote:
"JR" wrote
wrote:

...and it's effective, too...

Yeah? How do you know?

I believe Richard was correcting the ROFF's own Theo-Neocon's grammar.

I got that, Op.

My apologies. I should have known a fine and erudite gentleman, such as
yourself, might have interpreted Richard's post differently than than I had.
:~^ )

Way I read it, though, after correcting Dave, he went on to say the
technique itself was effective.

I read it as Richard was making a statement about the meaning of
"affective." In that he had no doubt that waterboarding would elicit some
sort of emotional response from the victim. Then concluded by settin' Davie
straight with his "...and it's effective, too..." comment, though I have
been known to be wrong on numerous occasions :~^ (

Richard, if that's what you meant, how do you know?

Yeah, what JR said.

Op

waterboarding
 

On Dec 29, 5:38 am, Dave LaCourse wrote:
On Fri, 28 Dec 2007 19:24:29 -0800, rw

wrote:
It's torture. Plain and simple.

I am so disgusted with our government.

Put it this way:

If waterboarding would save the life of your wife, children, and
boyfriend, would you be in favor of it? Yeah, me too.

Torture is pain. There is no pain in waterboarding. And it lasts
only 25 seconds. If it saves lives, waterboard away.

Nice troll, btw. d;o)

LaCourse

It was our ideal not our land or material wealth that made us a great
nation. Review the history or the 15 and 16 century. Royalty ran
rampant over the rights of the common man. People were thrown and
left in jail with no reason. Confessions obtained under torture were
valid.
The Declaration of Independence and the Constitution were published
widely and studied by scholars and statement. Some indivulas had
written about the rights of man, but no groups of men ever risk their
all in open armed defiance.
It was the expression of ideals that made us great.
Are you willing to discard those ideal just because of a few rag
heads.
Read the bill of rights and see how well they protected us ( if you
just apply it to a few you apply it to all of us).
When we abandon our ideals we become a bunch of gangsters just like
the people were fighting. Battles of ideals are always fought best
from the moral high ground.
Torture has gone on in wars before; ever hear the rumors of the VC
that flew out of the Hueys into the Tonkin gulf.
Torture gets you answers but it usually get you the truth. With just
the equipment carried by the average fly-fisherman I'll bet you could
be made to confess to giving MC a blow job and enjoying it so much
that you want to do it again.

waterboarding
 

"Dave LaCourse" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 29 Dec 2007 12:41:27 -0500, "Opus--Mark H. Bowen"
wrote:

Davie, the illiterate expert on Native American ancestories and torture
techniques, stated th

Screw you, fat and ugly redneck.

While I have no issue with homosexual proclivities, I am a heterosexual;
therefore, I can't ablige you in your endeavors to achieve certain
fantasies.

I'll give ya "fat and ugly" but, if I do sayso myself, you fit into the
"redneck" category much better than myself.

If fat and ugly rednecks are the subject of your affections, might I suggest
that you contact some of your Theo-Neocon buddies. However, satiating your
desire may require a move on your part to a RED state!

Does the wife know of your sexual interest in fat and ugly rednecks?

HTH

Op

waterboarding
 

"Ray or Bobbi Adams" wrote in message
...

"rb608" wrote in message
news:%xsdj.6464$oh5.2546@trndny08...
"Dave LaCourse" wrote in message
If waterboarding would save the life of your wife, children, and
boyfriend, would you be in favor of it? Yeah, me too.

Turn that around. Suppose your wife or child was mistakenly taken
captive by a foreign government who thought they had valuable
information. Would it be okay if they were waterboarded? Hell no; and
that's the same outrage you should have when our country does it.

With all due respect, the false choice you posit is bull****. It assumes
that you *know* you have the right person, you *know* they possess the
information you seek, you *know* that information is valid and timely,
and you *know* they will give you the correct information under torture.
But, the fact is, you can know none of that with certainty before you
begin the torture. Further, even with information you glean in that
manner, you can't be certain it is truth or made up to stop the torture.
IOW, you're going on an inhuman fishing expedition (OBROFF).

Torture is one of those crimes that simply cannot be excused. There can
be no double standard. If we can do it to them, they can do it to us.
If we can do it to save our children, they can do it to our children with
the same moral authority. I cannot excuse or condone that.

Joe F.

sure beats beheading

Not necessarily.

Op

waterboarding
 

"BJ Conner" wrote in message
Torture gets you answers but it usually get you the truth. With just
the equipment carried by the average fly-fisherman I'll bet you could
be made to confess to giving MC a blow job and enjoying it so much
that you want to do it again.

You made a statement and disproved your own premise in only two sentences.
Beautifully done.

Joe F.

waterboarding
 

wrote in message
...
On Sat, 29 Dec 2007 08:38:45 -0500, Dave LaCourse
wrote:

On Fri, 28 Dec 2007 19:24:29 -0800, rw
wrote:

It's torture. Plain and simple.

I am so disgusted with our government.

Put it this way:

If waterboarding would save the life of your wife, children, and
boyfriend, would you be in favor of it? Yeah, me too.

Torture is pain.

Have you even been "tortured?" (and no, reading posts on ROFF doesn't
count...)

There is no pain in waterboarding.

Have you ever been waterboarded?

And it lasts only 25 seconds.

Not necessarily. It depends on the person being boarded and the
technique(s) used.

If it saves lives, waterboard away.

On that, we agree.

A truly sad comment.

I can only suppose that you wouldn't have problem with the so-called enemies
of the US torturing our troops at will as well. I mean it could save the
lives of our enemies troops.

Op



Nice troll, btw. d;o)

Hmmm...much like the definition of "torture," the definition of "nice"
seems to be a rather hard-to-pin-down target...

Happy Holidays,
R

LaCourse

waterboarding
 

"rb608" wrote in message
news:S7zdj.544$yv5.147@trndny07...
"BJ Conner" wrote in message
Torture gets you answers but it usually get you the truth. With just
the equipment carried by the average fly-fisherman I'll bet you could
be made to confess to giving MC a blow job and enjoying it so much
that you want to do it again.

You made a statement and disproved your own premise in only two sentences.
Beautifully done.

Joe F.

I couldn't make heads nor tails of what BC wrote. My hat is off to you sir!

Op

waterboarding
 

On Sat, 29 Dec 2007 16:42:32 -0500, "Opus--Mark H. Bowen"
wrote:

I can only suppose that you wouldn't have problem with the so-called enemies
of the US torturing our troops at will as well. I mean it could save the
lives of our enemies troops.

What are you talking about, nitwit. They ARE torturing our troops,
and not for info, but just for the pleasure of it. Where the hell
have you been for the past few years? I know you live in a backward
town in backward section of a great state, but surely they have tv,
radio, newspapers.

My neice's son was killed there last year. He was killed outright
while taking down a couple of al qaeda. His two friends were not so
lucky. They were captured and tortured to death.

Waterboarding causes NO pain, leaves NO mark, draws NO blood. OTOH,
cutting off the genitals and heads of our GI's DOES.

You're a fool, Mark. You can get all the formal education you desire,
but you will remain a fool and a looser until the day you die.

Davie

waterboarding
 

On Sat, 29 Dec 2007 16:32:02 -0500, "Opus--Mark H. Bowen"
wrote:

While I have no issue with homosexual proclivities, I am a heterosexual;

What a laugh. You're as queer as a three dollar bill. Remember your
original net name - "Guyz and Fliez". You certainly act like one, so
I can only guess you are one, not that there's anything wrong with
that.

You still living with mommy?

Davie

waterboarding
 

On Sat, 29 Dec 2007 16:34:05 -0500, "Opus--Mark H. Bowen"
wrote:

Not necessarily.

You would rather have your head chopped off than be waterboarded?
Hahahahahaha. You are a nitwit.

Davie

waterboarding
 

On Sat, 29 Dec 2007 13:03:38 -0800 (PST), BJ Conner
wrote:

Torture gets you answers but it usually get you the truth. With just
the equipment carried by the average fly-fisherman I'll bet you could
be made to confess to giving MC a blow job and enjoying it so much
that you want to do it again.

Don't you ever have natural sexual thoughts, BJ? Or is THAT your
*normal* sexual thoughts? Hmmmmmm.

waterboarding
 

On Sat, 29 Dec 2007 16:44:03 -0500, "Opus--Mark H. Bowen"
wrote:

I couldn't make heads nor tails of what BC wrote.

That's because he is drunk --- again.

waterboarding
 

On Dec 29, 1:38*pm, "rb608" wrote:
"BJ Conner" wrote in message
Torture gets you answers but it usually get you the truth. *With just
the equipment carried by the average fly-fisherman I'll bet you could
be made to confess to giving MC a blow job and enjoying it so much
that you want to do it again.

You made a statement and disproved your own premise in only two sentences.
Beautifully done.

Joe F
Correction "it does not usually get you the truth."

waterboarding
 

On Dec 29, 2:44*pm, Dave LaCourse wrote:
On Sat, 29 Dec 2007 13:03:38 -0800 (PST), BJ Conner

wrote:
Torture gets you answers but it usually get you the truth. *With just
the equipment carried by the average fly-fisherman I'll bet you could
be made to confess to giving MC a blow job and enjoying it so much
that you want to do it again.

Don't you ever have natural sexual thoughts, BJ? *Or is THAT your
*normal* sexual thoughts? *Hmmmmmm.

see above

waterboarding
 

"Dave LaCourse" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 29 Dec 2007 16:32:02 -0500, "Opus--Mark H. Bowen"
wrote:

While I have no issue with homosexual proclivities, I am a heterosexual;

What a laugh. You're as queer as a three dollar bill. Remember your
original net name - "Guyz and Fliez". You certainly act like one, so
I can only guess you are one, not that there's anything wrong with
that.

You still living with mommy?

Davie

Let's see, where to begin? Oh yeah, you want to **** 'fat and ugly
rednecks," and I'm a homosexual? Strange the way you think, I'd say.

It's Guys and Flyz, btw, and it comes logically from our shared hobby, which
here in ROFF is predominately comprised of male participants, thus Guyz. And
while your thoughts naturally drift toward a man's crotch, the Flyz part of
my earlier screen name pertained to the moniker given to the artificial
lures that attract the fish for which we fly fish. I know that you aren't so
simple minded not to have known that, I suspect that it's just that you
can't get your mind off of sex long enough to concentrate on the other
things that go on in life.

Oh, undoubtedly, you think there is something wrong with homosexuals,
otherwise you wouldn't hide your sexual desires behind your wife's skirts.
If I were gay, I certainly wouldn't have any qualm expressing my feelings as
such, where as you are just another Ted Haggard. Implicitly, proclaiming to
all of the world that you detest homosexuals and all that they stand for,
all the while having a trist in some run-down motel with a male prositute.

No, I haven't lived with mother in quite a few years. However, there's
always the chance that I could move back in one day. Actually, I suspect
that I will move back home to mother's, in the not too distant future. I
expect that I will have to care for her needs one day. I'll be sure to let
you know when that day comes, as you seem to be most concerned.

Anything else, your swash-buckling closet dweller?

Op

waterboarding
 

"Dave LaCourse" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 29 Dec 2007 13:03:38 -0800 (PST), BJ Conner
wrote:

Torture gets you answers but it usually get you the truth. With just
the equipment carried by the average fly-fisherman I'll bet you could
be made to confess to giving MC a blow job and enjoying it so much
that you want to do it again.

Don't you ever have natural sexual thoughts, BJ? Or is THAT your
*normal* sexual thoughts? Hmmmmmm.

Once again, the Irony Meter pegs.

Op