The Other Adult Beverage continued.
 

Since we are on roff awash in coffe experts I would like to ask for
opinions on the Braun Tassimo system.
I am thinking of getting one for the saltmine. What coffee I have
tried so far is pretty good. Much better than the Mr. Coffee I threw
in the dumpster.
I may get one for home as it makes hot chocolate and some other fu-fu
drinks women like.
I also have a Starbucks french-press travel mug that I may be giving
away soon. It sounds like a great theory but so far all the coffee I
have made taste like mud. A few more trials and It's on its way to
Goodwill.

The Other Adult Beverage continued.
 

BJ Conner wrote:

I also have a Starbucks french-press travel mug that I may be giving
away soon. It sounds like a great theory but so far all the coffee I
have made taste like mud. A few more trials and It's on its way to
Goodwill.

Try using a very coarse grind.

--
Cut "to the chase" for my email address.

The Other Adult Beverage continued.
 

On Jan 12, 12:36*pm, Steve wrote:
On Sat, 12 Jan 2008 08:52:23 -0800 (PST), BJ Conner

wrote:
I would like to ask for
opinions on the Braun Tassimo system.

If that's the "T-disc capsule" machine I would recommend against it
for that reason alone.
There is a coffee machine for almost any taste or need.
What is it you want from the machine?

When you say that your french press makes a "muddy" taste, do you mean
the actual taste, or that the coffee is muddy from sediment?


The coffee that I had from the Braun machine was good. The little T-
disk are spendy. About $0.50 a cup. Supposedly you can get them on the
net and at discount places cheaper. Starbucks is even selling them
now.

The coffee pot I just threw away was somekind of drip thing that cost
$29. It made 8 or 10 cups of which only 2 or 3 were fit to drink. It
was a bitch to clean. It was the kind you would expect in a
construction trailer. It's worth the extra cost to me to get ONE cup
without the hassel and mess that goes with the old pot.

I have been grinding the coffee for the french press to fine. I am
going to try counting the beans and grinding them up in pepper
grinder. When I use the Krupp coffee grinder/ dubbing blender the
coffee gets ground pretty fine.

The Other Adult Beverage continued.
 

Without getting fancy, I've used a lot of coffee makers over the
years, even sold them in my youth. One that I've settled on as a day-
to-day drip maker is the Braun. Whether in the UK, Germany or the US,
the basic Braun model has served well over the years.
By the way, for those interested in Yank football, this Seattle at
Green Bay game in the snow is a hoot. I love it when the players
slide an extra 10 yards after contact.
Frank Reid

The Other Adult Beverage continued.
 

"Frank Reid" wrote in message
...
Without getting fancy, I've used a lot of coffee makers over the
years, even sold them in my youth. One that I've settled on as a day-
to-day drip maker is the Braun. Whether in the UK, Germany or the US,
the basic Braun model has served well over the years.
By the way, for those interested in Yank football, this Seattle at
Green Bay game in the snow is a hoot. I love it when the players
slide an extra 10 yards after contact.
Frank Reid

I've needed a good snow game like this for a long time!

Op

The Other Adult Beverage continued.
 

On Jan 12, 5:52 pm, BJ Conner wrote:
Since we are on roff awash in coffe experts I would like to ask for
opinions on the Braun Tassimo system.
I am thinking of getting one for the saltmine. What coffee I have
tried so far is pretty good. Much better than the Mr. Coffee I threw
in the dumpster.
I may get one for home as it makes hot chocolate and some other fu-fu
drinks women like.
I also have a Starbucks french-press travel mug that I may be giving
away soon. It sounds like a great theory but so far all the coffee I
have made taste like mud. A few more trials and It's on its way to
Goodwill.

What you use and how you use it depends largely on why you do it. I
only really like espresso, because I enjoy the taste, but making it
properly so that I really enjoy it takes time and some application. I
don´t drink coffee from the "drip" machines which are ubiquitous here,
I just don´t like the taste much. This has nothing to do with
snobbery, I just don´t like it.

Making stuff like hot chocolate etc in many machines will ruin the
taste of your coffee!

I looked at some of the "coffee pad" machines, and tried the results
at various friends who have them, but the good ones, ( The Saeco
machines are popular here), are very expensive, and also a lot of
bother, as you have to keep them clean and serviced for optimum
operation. Also. you never really know what is in the pads you buy,
so the taste varies quite a lot.

For ease of use and convenience, a couple of people I know like this
machine;

http://www.ciao.co.uk/Saeco_ODEA_GO_...00205__6710036

It delivers a pretty good coffee with the right beans, ( for my tastes
anyway), although I have only tried a few cups from one machine
belonging to a friend.

The best simple small espresso machines are easy to use and service,
but they are no use if you drink a lot of coffee. If you have to mess
on with stuff every time you want a coffee, and you only get one cup
at a time, then you can´t really use stuff like this in the workplace
etc.

Trouble with a lot of this stuff is, many people drink coffee "because
it´s what they drink", and for no other specific reasons. Whatever
they use is a compromise between taste and convenience, or they don´t
much care anyway! Once you actually have gone to the trouble of
finding a good cup of coffee, ( depending on your particular tastes),
then you will be much more critical of a lot of other stuff, or even
actively eschew it.

You really have to find what´s best for you, practically regardless of
what other people say...........................

MC

The Other Adult Beverage continued.
 

On Jan 12, 7:14*pm, Mike wrote:
On Jan 12, 5:52 pm, BJ Conner wrote:

Since we are on roff awash in coffe experts I would like to ask for
opinions on the Braun Tassimo system.
I am thinking of getting one for the saltmine. * What coffee *I have
tried so far is pretty good. *Much better than the Mr. Coffee I threw
in the dumpster.
I may get one for home as it makes hot chocolate and some other fu-fu
drinks women like.
I also have a Starbucks french-press travel mug that I may be giving
away soon. *It sounds like a great theory but so far all the coffee I
have made taste like mud. A few more trials and It's on its way to
Goodwill.

What you use and how you use it depends largely on why you do it. I
only really *like espresso, because I enjoy the taste, *but making *it
properly so that I really enjoy it takes time and some application. *I
don´t drink coffee from the "drip" machines which are ubiquitous here,
I just don´t like the taste much. This has nothing to do with
snobbery, I just don´t like it.

Making stuff like hot chocolate etc in many machines will ruin the
taste of your coffee!

I looked at some of the "coffee pad" *machines, and tried the results
at various friends who have them, but the good ones, ( The Saeco
machines are popular here), are very expensive, and also a lot of
bother, as you have to keep them clean and serviced for optimum
operation. *Also. you never really know what is in the pads you buy,
so the taste varies quite a lot.

For ease of use and convenience, a couple of people I know like this
machine;

http://www.ciao.co.uk/Saeco_ODEA_GO_...00205__6710036

It delivers a pretty good coffee with the right beans, ( for my tastes
anyway), although I have only tried a few cups from one machine
belonging to a friend.

The best simple small espresso machines are easy to use and service,
but they are no use if you drink a lot of coffee. If you have to mess
on with stuff every time you want a coffee, and you only get one cup
at a time, then you can´t really use stuff like this in the workplace
etc.

Trouble with a lot of this stuff is, many people drink coffee "because
it´s what they drink", and for no other specific reasons. Whatever
they use is a compromise between taste and convenience, or they don´t
much care anyway! Once you actually have gone to the trouble of
finding a good cup of coffee, ( depending on your particular tastes),
then you will be much more critical of a lot of other stuff, or even
actively eschew it.

You really have to find what´s best for you, practically regardless of
what other people say...........................

MC

That's an espresso machine, totally different from the Braun Tassimo.

The Other Adult Beverage continued.
 

On Jan 13, 5:33 pm, BJ Conner wrote:
On Jan 12, 7:14 pm, Mike wrote:



On Jan 12, 5:52 pm, BJ Conner wrote:

Since we are on roff awash in coffe experts I would like to ask for
opinions on the Braun Tassimo system.
I am thinking of getting one for the saltmine. What coffee I have
tried so far is pretty good. Much better than the Mr. Coffee I threw
in the dumpster.
I may get one for home as it makes hot chocolate and some other fu-fu
drinks women like.
I also have a Starbucks french-press travel mug that I may be giving
away soon. It sounds like a great theory but so far all the coffee I
have made taste like mud. A few more trials and It's on its way to
Goodwill.

What you use and how you use it depends largely on why you do it. I
only really like espresso, because I enjoy the taste, but making it
properly so that I really enjoy it takes time and some application. I
don´t drink coffee from the "drip" machines which are ubiquitous here,
I just don´t like the taste much. This has nothing to do with
snobbery, I just don´t like it.

Making stuff like hot chocolate etc in many machines will ruin the
taste of your coffee!

I looked at some of the "coffee pad" machines, and tried the results
at various friends who have them, but the good ones, ( The Saeco
machines are popular here), are very expensive, and also a lot of
bother, as you have to keep them clean and serviced for optimum
operation. Also. you never really know what is in the pads you buy,
so the taste varies quite a lot.

For ease of use and convenience, a couple of people I know like this
machine;

http://www.ciao.co.uk/Saeco_ODEA_GO_...00205__6710036

It delivers a pretty good coffee with the right beans, ( for my tastes
anyway), although I have only tried a few cups from one machine
belonging to a friend.

The best simple small espresso machines are easy to use and service,
but they are no use if you drink a lot of coffee. If you have to mess
on with stuff every time you want a coffee, and you only get one cup
at a time, then you can´t really use stuff like this in the workplace
etc.

Trouble with a lot of this stuff is, many people drink coffee "because
it´s what they drink", and for no other specific reasons. Whatever
they use is a compromise between taste and convenience, or they don´t
much care anyway! Once you actually have gone to the trouble of
finding a good cup of coffee, ( depending on your particular tastes),
then you will be much more critical of a lot of other stuff, or even
actively eschew it.

You really have to find what´s best for you, practically regardless of
what other people say...........................

MC

That's an espresso machine, totally different from the Braun Tassimo.

Indeed, but you can make many of the "same" drinks with it, which is
what many people do because they taste a lot better.

The pad machines have severe limitations. Here are some reviews of the
machine you asked about;

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Braun-Tassim.../dp/B000795X4C

http://www.lordpercy.com/braun_tassimo.htm ( note this quote from
this site

QUOTE Overall Braun has designed an incredibly easy machine to use,
no brainpower needed. At the end of the day it does exactly what it
claims to do. Your never going to get that same smooth coffee taste
from roasting and grinding your own beans, but as far as the Braun
Tassimo goes it's delayed release has allowed them to learn form any
mistakes that Philips made with the Senseo and take the pod systems
into a different league.UNQUOTE

http://www.reviewcentre.com/reviews86592.html

MC

The Other Adult Beverage continued.
 

On Jan 13, 8:47*am, Mike wrote:
On Jan 13, 5:33 pm, BJ Conner wrote:





On Jan 12, 7:14 pm, Mike wrote:

On Jan 12, 5:52 pm, BJ Conner wrote:

Since we are on roff awash in coffe experts I would like to ask for
opinions on the Braun Tassimo system.
I am thinking of getting one for the saltmine. * What coffee *I have
tried so far is pretty good. *Much better than the Mr. Coffee I threw
in the dumpster.
I may get one for home as it makes hot chocolate and some other fu-fu
drinks women like.
I also have a Starbucks french-press travel mug that I may be giving
away soon. *It sounds like a great theory but so far all the coffee I
have made taste like mud. A few more trials and It's on its way to
Goodwill.

What you use and how you use it depends largely on why you do it. I
only really *like espresso, because I enjoy the taste, *but making *it
properly so that I really enjoy it takes time and some application. *I
don´t drink coffee from the "drip" machines which are ubiquitous here,
I just don´t like the taste much. This has nothing to do with
snobbery, I just don´t like it.

Making stuff like hot chocolate etc in many machines will ruin the
taste of your coffee!

I looked at some of the "coffee pad" *machines, and tried the results
at various friends who have them, but the good ones, ( The Saeco
machines are popular here), are very expensive, and also a lot of
bother, as you have to keep them clean and serviced for optimum
operation. *Also. you never really know what is in the pads you buy,
so the taste varies quite a lot.

For ease of use and convenience, a couple of people I know like this
machine;

http://www.ciao.co.uk/Saeco_ODEA_GO_...00205__6710036

It delivers a pretty good coffee with the right beans, ( for my tastes
anyway), although I have only tried a few cups from one machine
belonging to a friend.

The best simple small espresso machines are easy to use and service,
but they are no use if you drink a lot of coffee. If you have to mess
on with stuff every time you want a coffee, and you only get one cup
at a time, then you can´t really use stuff like this in the workplace
etc.

Trouble with a lot of this stuff is, many people drink coffee "because
it´s what they drink", and for no other specific reasons. Whatever
they use is a compromise between taste and convenience, or they don´t
much care anyway! Once you actually have gone to the trouble of
finding a good cup of coffee, ( depending on your particular tastes),
then you will be much more critical of a lot of other stuff, or even
actively eschew it.

You really have to find what´s best for you, practically regardless of
what other people say...........................

MC

That's an espresso machine, totally different from the Braun Tassimo.

Indeed, but you can make many of the "same" drinks with it, which is
what many people do because they taste a lot better.

The pad machines have severe limitations. Here are some reviews of the
machine you asked about;

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Braun-Tassim...o-Machine/dp/B...

http://www.lordpercy.com/braun_tassimo.htm*( note this quote from
this site

QUOTE *Overall Braun has designed an incredibly easy machine to use,
no brainpower needed. At the end of the day it does exactly what it
claims to do. Your never going to get that same smooth coffee taste
from roasting and grinding your own beans, but as far as the Braun
Tassimo goes it's delayed release has allowed them to learn form any
mistakes that Philips made with the Senseo and take the pod systems
into a different league.UNQUOTE

http://www.reviewcentre.com/reviews86592.html

MC- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I read all the reviews and have even had a few cups made in one.
I was really looking for reviews by roffians. It was clear from the
first "Other Aadult Beverage..." that we had some world class experts
here.

The Other Adult Beverage continued.
 

On Jan 13, 7:13 pm, BJ Conner wrote:


I read all the reviews and have even had a few cups made in one.
I was really looking for reviews by roffians. It was clear from the
first "Other Aadult Beverage..." that we had some world class experts
here.

Well, the only real criterion here is "Did you like the coffee from
this machine?". If you did, then it will make no difference what
anybody says. I don´t consider myself an expert, or even particularly
knowledgeable at all in regard to coffee. But I know what I like.

Most of the people I have spoken to about this ( it is an ever
recurring topic here, as a very large percentage of the population
drinks coffee, or at least purports to), have all said that many of
the coffee pad type machines are not very good, but this too is simply
a matter of taste, and I mean taste in the normal sense of the word,
how it feels on your tongue.Other people´s opinions will not change
your taste buds or other perceptions.

If you are searching for a machine that makes "THE" perfect cup of
coffee, then you might as well give up now, because there is no such
thing, If you want "your" perfect cup of coffee, then you need to do
some research and try a lot. I limited my research, such as it was,
to espresso, because that was all I was interested in. I only tried a
very limited number of beans, and I have absolutely no idea of
blending etc etc etc.

It is similar to fishing rods, what you consider perfect may be a
disaster to somebody else.

Using an espresso machine to produce the basic drink, one can produce
a number of other drinks as well, so an espresso machine does not
limit you to making espresso.

MC

The Other Adult Beverage continued.
 

Germans drink more coffee per capita than water or beer, and the
Dutch, Norwegians, and Finns, ( among other Scandinavian countries)
drink even more of it;

http://www.thats-coffee.com/cms/inde...00&Item id=58

These are old figures, I have not looked for new ones, but I have been
told that the USA is still near the bottom of the list in regard to
per capita coffee consumption;

http://www.coffeeresearch.org/market/consumption.htm

MC

The Other Adult Beverage continued.
 

Sorry, these are the USA statistics;

http://www.coffeeresearch.org/market/usa.htm

MC

The Other Adult Beverage continued.
 

I'm puzzled by this thread. Coffee in the USA is wretchedly bad - as
bad as, say, democracy in Somalia.

Yet you're all wittering on about details of coffee-making that don't
matter a whisker unless there's a basic understanding in the country
about what constitutes decent cup of coffee.

Which isn't there.

L

The Other Adult Beverage continued.
 

Lazarus Cooke wrote:
I'm puzzled by this thread. Coffee in the USA is wretchedly bad - as
bad as, say, democracy in Somalia.

Yet you're all wittering on about details of coffee-making that don't
matter a whisker unless there's a basic understanding in the country
about what constitutes decent cup of coffee.

Which isn't there.

You're painting with a pretty wide brush there, aren't you ?
I mean there's absolutely no understanding in the UK about
what constitutes decent food yet I would guess there are at
least a few epicures to be found somewhere over there.

--
Ken Fortenberry

The Other Adult Beverage continued.
 

Lazarus Cooke wrote:
I'm puzzled by this thread. Coffee in the USA is wretchedly bad - as
bad as, say, democracy in Somalia.

There's a lot of bad coffee in the USA, but in recent years it's been
getting much easier to find an excellent cup of coffee in the big cities
and high-class tourist spots. There's been something of a coffee
renaissance (and I'm not primarily talking about Starbucks, although
they've played a big role in awakening consumer awareness). I've even
bought more than decent coffee in truck stops.

I generally avoid retail-brewed coffee (unless I need a jolt while
traveling), preferring to make my own.

A similar thing has happened with beer and wine. You can find superb
wine and beer grown and made in the US, as good as anything in Europe,
although I'm sure that French wine snobs will disagree. Of course, you
can also find plenty of disgusting swill.

One time years ago, while attending a scientific conference in Italy,
the social event was a dinner cruise on Lake Como. My American colleague
and I shared a table with a French couple. Italian wine was served, one
bottle per person, and the French couple refused even to taste it. My
colleague and I gladly drank theirs, getting pretty loaded in the
process. It was very, very good.

Perhaps the worst wine I've even tasted was at a bullfight in Madrid --
one of those stalls where they fill a bottle right from the keg. I do,
however, like Sangre de Toro.

We're even starting to make absinthe again. :-)

--
Cut "to the chase" for my email address.

The Other Adult Beverage continued.
 

On Sun, 13 Jan 2008 15:46:05 -0600, Ken Fortenberry
wrote:

You're painting with a pretty wide brush there, aren't you ?
I mean there's absolutely no understanding in the UK about
what constitutes decent food yet I would guess there are at
least a few epicures to be found somewhere over there.

I spent a culinary month in London one week. I guarantee you there is
an English cook in hell!

Dave

The Other Adult Beverage continued.
 

On Sun, 13 Jan 2008 21:38:58 +0000, Lazarus Cooke
wrote:


I'm puzzled by this thread. Coffee in the USA is wretchedly bad - as
bad as, say, democracy in Somalia.

Yet you're all wittering on about details of coffee-making that don't
matter a whisker unless there's a basic understanding in the country
about what constitutes decent cup of coffee.

Which isn't there.

L

It's all about personal tastes. My mom used to use Maxwell House in a
perculator. Tasted fine to me. Then I joined the Navy and drank Navy
coffee. Very strong, but I learned to drink it black (out of
necessity). I was never satisfied with the coffee my wife made
because it wasn't strong enough.

Now I use a Braun coffee make with "designer" coffee. Mr. Miller, a
famous roffian, gifted me with a coffee grinder. I honestly can not
tell the difference between freshly ground and ground coffee. But, it
satisfies my taste. There are at least a thousand other things that
concern me more than the taste of my morning coffee. I have no
trouble drinking coffee from Starbucks, Dunkin Donuts, or any other
coffee shop, *as long as it isn't flavored*. Coffee is supposed to
taste like coffee, not some French vanilla bean.

Dave

The Other Adult Beverage continued.
 

In article , Ken
Fortenberry wrote:

Lazarus Cooke wrote:
I'm puzzled by this thread. Coffee in the USA is wretchedly bad - as
bad as, say, democracy in Somalia.

Yet you're all wittering on about details of coffee-making that don't
matter a whisker unless there's a basic understanding in the country
about what constitutes decent cup of coffee.

Which isn't there.

You're painting with a pretty wide brush there, aren't you ?
I mean there's absolutely no understanding in the UK about
what constitutes decent food yet I would guess there are at
least a few epicures to be found somewhere over there.

Hi Ken

this ain't a UK/USA thing.
Had the discussion been in the UK (or, worse, Ireland) I'd have said
the same.

(Although there isn't the same food snobbery in the UK as there is in
the US. It's bad here, but not AS bad).

I bought a pizza for lunch today at what's supposed to be the founder
of good pizzas in the UK. The check for a margherita and a big glass of
wine was around twenty dollars. (In naples, where I've been for most of
the past few months, it would have been around five dollars. the pizza
there would have been superb, the wine a bit ropey)

Now today's pizza was in the founding branch of Pizza Express, on
Wardour Street, in Soho, London, the centre of the movie business in
Europe, probably, so it ought to have been at least adequate. It
wasn't. The pizza was so disgustingly badly made that I threw a
wobbler.

But it takes no effort to make a good margherita pizza. It just takes
skill, knowledge and care. They were all totally lackiing.

If people on wardour st, london, are prepared to serve up really awful
pizzas, then it means that there is no judgment at all about
pizza-making in england. I'd hold to that. No-one based in England is
entitled to say anything about pizza-making, because they're unlikely
ever to have tasted a decent one, and they don't know what they're
talking about.

In the same way, I think that in the US (as in the UK), folks should
start by trying to achieve a decent, standard cup of coffee. Once
that's been achieved, we can move on to fine grades of recherche beans
and roasts. But let's start with a decent cup of coffee, like you can
get in any tiny bar in any really ropey slummy area of an unknown town
in Italy. No-one in the back streets of Torre Annunziata is going on
about different beans, and roasts. But I'll defy you to get anything
less than an excellent cup of coffee there, even in the meanest slum
street.

Lazarus

The Other Adult Beverage continued.
 

Lazarus Cooke wrote:
Ken Fortenberry wrote:
Lazarus Cooke wrote:
I'm puzzled by this thread. Coffee in the USA is wretchedly bad - as
bad as, say, democracy in Somalia.

Yet you're all wittering on about details of coffee-making that don't
matter a whisker unless there's a basic understanding in the country
about what constitutes decent cup of coffee.

Which isn't there.
You're painting with a pretty wide brush there, aren't you ?
I mean there's absolutely no understanding in the UK about
what constitutes decent food yet I would guess there are at
least a few epicures to be found somewhere over there.

Hi Ken

this ain't a UK/USA thing.
Had the discussion been in the UK (or, worse, Ireland) I'd have said
the same. ...

You missed my point, which is it's not a nationality thing at all.
Just because most of the coffee served up in the US is wretched
doesn't mean the coffee at Steve's place isn't just as good, or
better, than the coffee in the meanest Italian slum. We're not
"wittering on" about the "standard US" cup of coffee, if there
even is such a thing, but our own tastes.

--
Ken Fortenberry

The Other Adult Beverage continued.
 

In article , Ken
Fortenberry wrote:

...

You missed my point, which is it's not a nationality thing at all.
Just because most of the coffee served up in the US is wretched
doesn't mean the coffee at Steve's place isn't just as good, or
better, than the coffee in the meanest Italian slum. We're not
"wittering on" about the "standard US" cup of coffee, if there
even is such a thing, but our own tastes.

Indeed I didn't adress your point. There are great restaurants in
England too, and places where you can get ar really good cup of coffee.

But in countries such as England and the Us good food and drink are
the preserve of a small proportion of educated, comparatively wealthy
people.

In Italy they're not. They're owned by everyone, and everyone demands,
with knowledge., high standards.

When I can expect to go into any small cafe in Cabool, MO, or
Punxsatawny, PA, and get an excellent coffee, (or pizza), there will be
something to work on.

Until then, we, you, are indeed just wittering on about an effete,
snobbish distinction.

Lazarus

The Other Adult Beverage continued.
 

Lazarus Cooke wrote:
...
Until then, we, you, are indeed just wittering on about an effete,
snobbish distinction.

Well, I'll raise a glass to effete, snobbish distinctions.

--
Ken Fortenberry

The Other Adult Beverage continued.
 

On Jan 13, 10:38 pm, Lazarus Cooke
wrote:
I'm puzzled by this thread. Coffee in the USA is wretchedly bad - as
bad as, say, democracy in Somalia.

Yet you're all wittering on about details of coffee-making that don't
matter a whisker unless there's a basic understanding in the country
about what constitutes decent cup of coffee.

Which isn't there.

L


I was a bit puzzled at first as well, but it ´s quite simple really,
unless you have had the opportunity to taste good coffee, or good
pizza, or good wine etc, and assuming of course you even consume such
in the first place and enjoy them, then you simply have no yardstick.

It is not really a national matter as such, and although snobbery
obviously plays a part in some of this, it is eventually all down to
personal taste, and availability.

As Wolfgang initially pointed out, he has just started trying the
"home made" coffee route, and has obviously noticed a massive
improvement in it for himself. Unfortunately, there is no way to make
many people aware of such improvements, they have to try it and
realise it for themselves.

Also, there will be places in most "civilised" countries where food
and drink of excellence may be obtained, but often at a premium, and
thus restricted per se Granted, if you take the "national average" as
the "norm" for any particular food or beverage, it is likely to be
absolutely abysmal when compared with the best, and the "standard" for
any particular item varies very considerably from country to country.

The "basic understanding" you mention is a purely individual
matter.Unless you have a certain number of people with the requisite
awareness, then the "standard" will remain low, as there is simply no
incentive to raise it.

If you are the only one in a particular group who notices how poor
something is in comparison to other places where you have eaten or
drunk it, then the knowledge is not going to do you a lot of good.
You will remain dissatisfied until the "standard" in that group is
raised.

This only occurs when enough people are aware of the better
alternatives, and demand higher "standards".

Furthermore, there will always be people, sometimes very many, who are
satisfied with, or may even prefer what they consider to be
"standard". Regardless of how poor this may seem to somebody who has
tried the "real thing".

Getting used to the "best" of various things can also cause you major
dissatisfaction, as there will be many places and occasions when you
will either have to make do with very considerably less, or go
without.

As an obviously extremely well travelled and versed "citizen of the
world", which you obviously are, you have had far more opportunities
to try various things and compare them to similar things elsewhere.
Most people have not! even when given the opportunity, many people
stick to what they know and are used to, rather than trying something
new. Many tastes are acquired, including poor tastes! Indeed, I would
venture to suggest that there are a great many more people satisfied
with "average" stuff than anything else, that is why it is only
"average".

TL
MC

The Other Adult Beverage continued.
 

PS.Many are of course also obliged by force of circumstance to accept
poor or less than average quality in a whole range of things.

The Other Adult Beverage continued.
 

Lazarus Cooke wrote:


In the same way, I think that in the US (as in the UK), folks should
start by trying to achieve a decent, standard cup of coffee. Once
that's been achieved, we can move on to fine grades of recherche beans
and roasts. But let's start with a decent cup of coffee, like you can
get in any tiny bar in any really ropey slummy area of an unknown town
in Italy. No-one in the back streets of Torre Annunziata is going on
about different beans, and roasts. But I'll defy you to get anything
less than an excellent cup of coffee there, even in the meanest slum
street.

Lazarus

what do you think makes this difference in quality?

jeff

The Other Adult Beverage continued.
 

Dave LaCourse wrote:

On Sun, 13 Jan 2008 21:38:58 +0000, Lazarus Cooke
wrote:


I'm puzzled by this thread. Coffee in the USA is wretchedly bad - as
bad as, say, democracy in Somalia.

Yet you're all wittering on about details of coffee-making that don't
matter a whisker unless there's a basic understanding in the country
about what constitutes decent cup of coffee.

Which isn't there.

L


It's all about personal tastes. My mom used to use Maxwell House in a
perculator. Tasted fine to me. Then I joined the Navy and drank Navy
coffee. Very strong, but I learned to drink it black (out of
necessity). I was never satisfied with the coffee my wife made
because it wasn't strong enough.

Now I use a Braun coffee make with "designer" coffee. Mr. Miller, a
famous roffian, gifted me with a coffee grinder. I honestly can not
tell the difference between freshly ground and ground coffee. But, it
satisfies my taste. There are at least a thousand other things that
concern me more than the taste of my morning coffee. I have no
trouble drinking coffee from Starbucks, Dunkin Donuts, or any other
coffee shop, *as long as it isn't flavored*. Coffee is supposed to
taste like coffee, not some French vanilla bean.

Dave



hell chief, you do know that your navy experience simply seared all of
your coffee taste buds, don't you? but, on the bright side, you're
blessed with satisfaction with any and every cup of coffee offered you. g

imo, as with vodka, gin, bourbon, scotch, beer, grits, collards,
etc...individual tastes differ enough that it is often impossible to
develop reliable standards in such things. (one of the best beers i've
tasted was home-brewed by danl)

however...of one thing i'm reasonably sure, there is a huge difference
between the taste of the coffee i now make by grinding relatively fresh
beans and the coffee i purchase at a retail store or infrequently make
from a grocery store grind. still, i have no pretense that i'm making
good coffee...it's merely much better than my old luzianne, yuban,
maxwell house, folgers, eight o'clock, etc. days. we've come a long way
baby...and we've a way to go yet.


jeff

The Other Adult Beverage continued.
 

On Mon, 14 Jan 2008 07:35:37 -0500, jeff miller
wrote:

imo, as with vodka, gin, bourbon, scotch, beer, grits, collards,
etc..

Collards? What, are you crazy, man? Next thing ya know you'll be
eatin' okra! shudder d;o)

The Other Adult Beverage continued.
 

In article , jeff miller
wrote:

Lazarus Cooke wrote:


In the same way, I think that in the US (as in the UK), folks should
start by trying to achieve a decent, standard cup of coffee. Once
that's been achieved, we can move on to fine grades of recherche beans
and roasts. But let's start with a decent cup of coffee, like you can
get in any tiny bar in any really ropey slummy area of an unknown town
in Italy. No-one in the back streets of Torre Annunziata is going on
about different beans, and roasts. But I'll defy you to get anything
less than an excellent cup of coffee there, even in the meanest slum
street.

Lazarus

what do you think makes this difference in quality?

jeff

It's a good question.

I think it begins with a culture where taste is very, very important.

I'm talking here not just about the families of lawyers and doctors,
but also of bus drivers, factory workers, street cleaners. All meals
are quite formal family occasions, at a dining table, with different
generations all sitting together. Both lunch and supper are freshly
cooked meals, with several courses, made with fresh, local seasonal
ingredients.

So everyone expects everything they eat to be good, well and freshly
prepared.

So when you ask for a coffee the barista will grind the beans, there
and then for you, and get a hot cup to pour the coffee into.

The other thing is that they're not trying to make sixteen different
sorts of drink. A few people will have a macchiato, with a drop of
milk, or a ristretto, even stronger, or, in the morning, a cappucino,
but these are all based on one drink, the espresso. The Italians are
good at keeping things simple.

There plenty of things I dislike and even hate about Italy - the
corruption, the burocracy and the endemic nepotism.

But on food and drink they're generally terrific.

By the way, on the original question about the Braun Tassimo, I
wouldn't bother. I myself generally drink espresso, but if not I just
use one of those plastic things that holds a paper filter. Can't cost
much more than five dollars or so and makes perfectly good coffee, so
long as you use good coffee to begin with.

Lazarus

The Other Adult Beverage continued.
 

"Lazarus Cooke" wrote in message
news:130120082138586963%lazaruscooke@britishlibrar y.invalid...

I'm puzzled by this thread. Coffee in the USA is wretchedly bad - as
bad as, say, democracy in Somalia.

Yet you're all wittering on about details of coffee-making that don't
matter a whisker unless there's a basic understanding in the country
about what constitutes decent cup of coffee.

Which isn't there.

O.k., you're going to have to explain to me in simple sentences composed of
short words what effect some mythical national ethos has on my ability to
brew a cup of coffee to my liking.

Meanwhile, you might better serve yourself by devoting a bit of time to a
consideration of just who it is you really hate so much.

Wolfgang

The Other Adult Beverage continued.
 

On Jan 14, 7:03*am, Lazarus Cooke
wrote:
In article , jeff miller





wrote:
Lazarus Cooke wrote:

In the same way, I think that in the US (as in the UK), folks should
start by trying to achieve a decent, standard cup of coffee. Once
that's been achieved, we can move on to fine grades of recherche beans
and roasts. But let's start with a decent cup of coffee, like you can
get in any tiny bar in any really ropey slummy area of an unknown town
in Italy. No-one in the back streets of Torre Annunziata is going on
about different beans, and roasts. But I'll defy you to get anything
less than an excellent cup of coffee there, even in the meanest slum
street.

Lazarus

* what do you think makes this difference in quality?

jeff

It's a good question.

I think it begins with a culture where taste is very, very important.

I'm talking here not just about the families of lawyers and doctors,
but also of bus drivers, factory workers, street cleaners. All meals
are quite formal family occasions, at a dining table, with different
generations all sitting together. *Both lunch and supper are freshly
cooked meals, with several courses, made with fresh, local seasonal
ingredients.

So everyone expects everything they eat to be good, well and freshly
prepared.

So *when you ask for a coffee the barista will grind the beans, there
and then for you, and get a hot cup to pour the coffee into.

The other thing is that they're not trying to make sixteen different
sorts of drink. A few people will have a macchiato, with a drop of
milk, or a ristretto, even stronger, or, in the morning, a cappucino,
but these are all based on one drink, the espresso. The Italians are
good at keeping things simple.

There plenty of things I dislike and even hate about Italy - the
corruption, the burocracy and the endemic nepotism.

But on food and drink they're generally terrific.

By the way, on the original question about the Braun Tassimo, I
wouldn't bother. I myself generally drink espresso, but if not I just
use one of those plastic things that holds a paper filter. Can't cost
much more than five dollars or so and makes perfectly good coffee, so
long as you use good coffee to begin with.

Lazarus- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Thanks for the comments. I may wind up buying the Braun despite the
cost. I have one of the plastic things with the filter. Not bad but
messy. the first cup they make is good. The second OK. But the third
you get an hour and a half later is medicinal at best.
This projects about over, maby the next will be down the road from
Starbucks ( like the one prior to this.). I can be tied to the job
with the cell phone and sneak off for 20 minutes. Coffee is one thing
but i don't think there will ever be a way to make scones on the job.

The Other Adult Beverage continued.
 

In article
, BJ
Conner wrote:


Thanks for the comments. I may wind up buying the Braun despite the
cost. I have one of the plastic things with the filter. Not bad but
messy. the first cup they make is good. The second OK. But the third
you get an hour and a half later is medicinal at best.

No, no. the idea is you only put water through the grounds once. You
make your one or three cups, there and then, and throw the filter and
the grounds away as soon as the water has gone through. If you want
more coffee, you put in a new paper, more fresh coffee, and pour water
in again.

L

The Other Adult Beverage continued.
 

In article
, BJ
Conner wrote:


Thanks for the comments. I may wind up buying the Braun despite the
cost. I have one of the plastic things with the filter. Not bad but
messy. the first cup they make is good. The second OK. But the third
you get an hour and a half later is medicinal at best.

No, no no.

This is the sort of thing I mean.

http://tinyurl.com/yvgq3m

But you put a paper in, put coffee in it, pour the water through, and
that's it. You then throw away the paper and the grounds. You don't try
putting water through it again, or it will indeed taste horrible.

If you want more coffee, you put in a new paper, and more fresh coffee.

Properly used it'll be fine.

Lazarus

The Other Adult Beverage continued.
 

On Jan 14, 8:19*am, Lazarus Cooke
wrote:
In article
, BJ

Conner wrote:

Thanks for the comments. *I may wind up buying the Braun despite the
cost. * I have one of the plastic things with the filter. Not bad but
messy. *the first cup they make is good. The second OK. *But the third
you get an hour and a half later is medicinal at best.

No, no no.

This is the sort of thing I mean.

http://tinyurl.com/yvgq3m

But you put a paper in, put coffee in it, pour the water through, and
that's it. You then throw away the paper and the grounds. You don't try
putting water through it again, or it will indeed taste horrible.

If you want more coffee, you put in a new paper, and more fresh coffee.

Properly used it'll be fine.

Lazarus

I'll get another, I use to have one. I even had one with some gold or
gold plated wire screen in it. Real or plated someone though it was
real and it dissapeared one weekend.

The Other Adult Beverage continued.
 

"Lazarus Cooke" wrote in message
news:140120081503026945%lazaruscooke@britishlibrar y.invalid...

Snip

There plenty of things I dislike and even hate about Italy - the
corruption, the burocracy and the endemic nepotism.

But on food and drink they're generally terrific.

Snip

Lazarus

Maybe so, but my experience from 30+ yrs ago when I was stationed in Naples
didn't fit that appraisal. Although, the best pizza I ever had was in
Positano (near Naples) the 3 or 4 worst pizza's I ever had, and that
includes even microwaved frozen pizzas that I have eaten in desperation out
of sheer hunger, were served to me in Naples.

Bob Weinberger

The Other Adult Beverage continued.
 

In article
, BJ
Conner wrote:

* what do you think makes this difference in quality?

jeff

I think that, by asking questions, (always the sign of smart people)
you've hit the nail on the head.

I've just done some very rough measurements.

To make a cup of espresso, you will use about three to four times the
volume of freshly ground coffee to the volume of the final cup of
coffee.

After that, the grounds are thrown in the trashcan and you start again.
(I'm speaking literally. If I have, say six italians who want a coffee
after their lunch, I'll go through the procedure three times. My
espresso machine, like most ones, can make two cups at a time.).

It's a bit of water, at (roughly) the right temperature, passing
through quite a lot of ground, roast beans that produces the right
taste. You mustn't skimp on the quality of the coffee, or the roast, or
the grind, or , especially, the quantity.

Above all, every time you make a new cup, you must start with new,
fresh coffee.

Like most things to do with taste, the ingredients are important, but
also you must get the method really, really, right.

Lazarus


Lazarus

The Other Adult Beverage continued.
 

In article zERij.3297$rV6.817@trndny06, Bob Weinberger
wrote:

Maybe so, but my experience from 30+ yrs ago when I was stationed in Naples
didn't fit that appraisal. Although, the best pizza I ever had was in
Positano (near Naples) the 3 or 4 worst pizza's I ever had, and that
includes even microwaved frozen pizzas that I have eaten in desperation out
of sheer hunger, were served to me in Naples.


Hi Bob

I'm slightly surprised that you got a good pizza in Positano, even
thirty years ago. For a long, long, time it's been one of the most
touristy towns in Italy.

My point was that italian coffee is generally very good because, on the
whole, it's made for Italians who will simply go somewhere else if it
ain't good, and who, whether rich or poor, have a well-developed
palate for what is, and isn't good. Same goes for pizzas, in
non-touristy places.

But the Italians, as I've said, are shameless about exploiting
foreigners. I like them ver much in some ways, but not in others. .

I went a couple of weeks ago from Torre Annunziata (where there are
very few resaurants because everyone eats at home, and which is also a
world leader in camorra, drug-dealing, corruption and mindless
violence and murder, where there are no foreigners at all apart from
me, and which also has one of the best fish markets in Europe) one stop
on the Circumvesuviana train to Pompeii.

In Pompeii, even though I speak good Italian and the woman I was with
is local and speaks not just Neapolitan but the local dialect (Torrese
- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torrese )
we both got served with a really rotten meal, simpy because the people
who ran the restaurant were lousy cooks. They liked us, but their
business was cooking for tourists.

My point is (and perhaps I sometimes express it badly) that really good
food needs a blue-collar population who eat most of their meals at
home - round the table, properly, not watching the television, with the
kids and the grandparents all there, every day, eating oysters and
frogs legs and sheeps' brains together, discussing where the carrots
came from, and the pasta, and the fish - and why some of them aren't as
good as they were yesterday, and what they'd all like to have for
supper tomorrow, and just how a Prostitutes' Spaghetti ought to be
made.

You can't suddenly jump from a position where the food is lousy to one
where the food is good by bringing in a few fancy chefs. You need a
demanding, knowledgeable, non-snobby blue-collar population who care
about what they eat, put money and effort into it, and eat well every
day, week in week out, lunch and dinner.

Lazarus

The Other Adult Beverage continued.
 

"Ken Fortenberry" wrote in message
. net...
Lazarus Cooke wrote:
... Until then, we, you, are indeed just wittering on about an effete,
snobbish distinction.

Well, I'll raise a glass to effete, snobbish distinctions.

well, actually he'll crack open a cold Budweiser and toss away any claim to
'effete' he might wish to make.g
Tom

The Other Adult Beverage continued.
 

Dave LaCourse wrote:

On Mon, 14 Jan 2008 07:35:37 -0500, jeff miller
wrote:


imo, as with vodka, gin, bourbon, scotch, beer, grits, collards,
etc..


Collards? What, are you crazy, man? Next thing ya know you'll be
eatin' okra! shudder d;o)



trust me, to one who has tasted chitlins (a/k/a ****lins), collards are
an exquisite delicacy. however, i like neither collards nor grits. i'm
probably crazy...but not that crazy.

jeff

The Other Adult Beverage continued.
 

"jeff miller" wrote in message
...
But let's start with a decent cup of coffee, like you can
get in any tiny bar in any really ropey slummy area of an unknown town
in Italy. No-one in the back streets of Torre Annunziata is going on
about different beans, and roasts. But I'll defy you to get anything
less than an excellent cup of coffee there, even in the meanest slum
street. Lazarus

what do you think makes this difference in quality?

jeff

because the Italians, over the centuries in which their culture has evolved,
have developed a culture which values well made coffee. It is required,
actually, to wash the taste of Italian wine from their collective
palatesg.
Tom
......Lisa will kill me, shortly, after she reads this one....

The Other Adult Beverage continued.
 

On Mon, 14 Jan 2008 22:47:59 GMT, "Bob Weinberger"
wrote:


"Lazarus Cooke" wrote in message
news:140120081503026945%lazaruscooke@britishlibra ry.invalid...

Snip

There plenty of things I dislike and even hate about Italy - the
corruption, the burocracy and the endemic nepotism.

But on food and drink they're generally terrific.

Snip

Lazarus

Maybe so, but my experience from 30+ yrs ago when I was stationed in Naples
didn't fit that appraisal. Although, the best pizza I ever had was in
Positano (near Naples) the 3 or 4 worst pizza's I ever had, and that
includes even microwaved frozen pizzas that I have eaten in desperation out
of sheer hunger, were served to me in Naples.

Bob Weinberger

Espresso is a modern invention (20th century) and the type of machine
Lazarus probably uses has only been around about 60 years, so it's not
like the Italians have some long, ancient history to draw upon. But
we're talking about personal taste here, so you and Lazarus can both be
correct.

TC,
R

The Other Adult Beverage continued.
 

In article ,
wrote:



Espresso is a modern invention (20th century) and the type of machine
Lazarus probably uses has only been around about 60 years,

This is right, and should have been mentioned before. (mea culpa)

so it's not
like the Italians have some long, ancient history to draw upon.

As you may have seen, my argument is that they care about taste more
than most other people

But
we're talking about personal taste here, so you and Lazarus can both be
correct.

Agreed, and this is important.

So, though I prefer italian coffee, I make my (Italian) girlfriend's
coffee as well as I can every morning when I get up early enough (she,
of course, prefers filter coffee).

(In my view it should be De gustibus disputandum est - with a strong
gerundive of obligation).

We haven't talked about where it all began, with Ethiopia, and probably
the nearest thing to 'early' coffee, that we're likely to deal with,
which might be the way of making coffee known as Turkish coffee, which
I like and enjoy and drink anywhere from the Balkans through Greece,
Turkey, the Levant, to North Africa, but which is quite different from
what we've been discussing.

L