You gotta be kidding!
 

I was just down to the local Just-Bring-$$$ fly shop to get a lay of the
land. I knew they had nothing under $100, but that was expected. What I
wasn't prepared for was the shock I received when I went over to the fly
bins and looked for nymphs, the one's that are supposed to be active in my
local watery. Holy crap!

What the heck am I supposed to do with a no. 18 nymph? Hell, I get eye
sleep bigger than these things. I could barely even see them and they were
black. I have no idea where the hook or the eye is. Tying one is beyond
the scope of my imagination ...unless it's the Hubble. What tippet will fit
these micro midges? My 7 mil taper tip has to be bigger than the hook
shank. Do I tie on an even smaller tippet? If so, what? Pixie dental
floss? Spider silk?

nb ....rudely awoken

You gotta be kidding!
 

notbob wrote:
I was just down to the local Just-Bring-$$$ fly shop to get a lay of the
land. I knew they had nothing under $100, but that was expected. What I
wasn't prepared for was the shock I received when I went over to the fly
bins and looked for nymphs, the one's that are supposed to be active in my
local watery. Holy crap!

What the heck am I supposed to do with a no. 18 nymph? Hell, I get eye
sleep bigger than these things. I could barely even see them and they were
black. I have no idea where the hook or the eye is. Tying one is beyond
the scope of my imagination ...unless it's the Hubble. What tippet will fit
these micro midges? My 7 mil taper tip has to be bigger than the hook
shank. Do I tie on an even smaller tippet? If so, what? Pixie dental
floss? Spider silk?

nb ....rudely awoken

Size 18 is not a "small" nymph, it's a typical sized nymph, and if you
can't see well enough to tie one on you should find another hobby. A
tippet of 4x should thread just fine. In fact, you should be able to get
another 4x tippet through the eye for a dropper. Cut the tippet at an
angle with a sharp pair of nippers, and make sure that you aren't using
****ty flies with crowded heads.

Here's a suggestion, offered in the generous spirit of one fly fisherman
to another:

Go out on your favorite stream with a small-mesh net and turn over some
rocks. Catch the detritus. You'll probably find lots of naturals far
smaller than size 18.

That's what the fish are probably eating.

I take it that you're a spin fisherman who's new to fly fishing, but I
haven't been paying a lot of attention to your posts, other than that
you're ****ed about Orvis prices. Right on.

--
Cut "to the chase" for my email address.

You gotta be kidding!
 

"rw" wrote


Go out on your favorite stream with a small-mesh net and turn over some
rocks. Catch the detritus. You'll probably find lots of naturals far
smaller than size 18.

That's what the fish are probably eating.



That is probably the best advice you are likely to get and if taken
seriously can vastly speed up any efforts to really become a knowledgable
fly fisherman..

...... you see,

'waving a stick' is NOT the central essence of fly fishing ...

understanding the natural food forms of our prey, is

......

and since in the case of trout, those food forms are mostly very small, we
end up using a system of casting that allows us to fish with nearly
weight-less and very small lures ... i.e. we 'wave sticks'

in other words, the casting system is the result of and follows from, the
small food items, historically

..........and currently in the minds of many anglers ( although the 'fad' of
fly fishing is based on the cool looking 'stick waving' not really even
fishing, in many cases )

You gotta be kidding!
 

Go to the Dollar Store and get a half dozen pairs of reading glasses in
the 2X to 4X range and get matching straps (they are easy to lose on
the stream - the straps cut down losses). This will help you thread
those flies. I have always said by the time most people get the
patience for fly fishing they can't see the flies.

I will also chime in that an 18 is on the small end of normal. My one
staple winter fly is a 22 Zebra midge and the BWOs coming out now on
the limestoners are alos in the 22 size range.


--
JeffK
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You gotta be kidding!
 

On Mar 8, 7:33 pm, notbob wrote:

What the heck am I supposed to do with a no. 18 nymph?

Hang a #24 dropper off it.

Your pal,

TBone

You gotta be kidding!
 

rw wrote:

angle with a sharp pair of nippers, and make sure that you aren't using
****ty flies with crowded heads.

ooh... good tip. thnx

Go out on your favorite stream with a small-mesh net and turn over some
rocks. Catch the detritus. You'll probably find lots of naturals far
smaller than size 18.

Dang, I was gonna do that today, but it snowed last night.... again.

I take it that you're a spin fisherman who's new to fly fishing, but I
haven't been paying a lot of attention to your posts, other than that
you're ****ed about Orvis prices. Right on.

Busted.

But, I see some things Orvis offers are not really not overly expensive
when compared with other stuff out there.

nb

You gotta be kidding!
 

JeffK wrote:
Go to the Dollar Store and get a half dozen pairs of reading glasses in
the 2X to 4X range and get matching straps (they are easy to lose on
the stream - the straps cut down losses). This will help you thread
those flies. I have always said by the time most people get the
patience for fly fishing they can't see the flies.

Thanks for the advice, Jeff. I used to be a machinist and could
visually scale 0.005" easily. Now, in my geezer yrs, I need everything
from magnifying glasses to watchmaker loops. No prob, I will endeavor
to persevere (and invest in more glass!).

nb

You gotta be kidding!
 

Larry L wrote:


'waving a stick' is NOT the central essence of fly fishing ...

What?!?!

Hell.

The only part I'm good at......

You gotta be kidding!
 

Larry L wrote:
..... you see,

'waving a stick' is NOT the central essence of fly fishing ...

understanding the natural food forms of our prey, is

.....

Well, different strokes for different folks but understanding
the natural food forms of our prey is the central essence of
aquatic biology. The central essence of fly fishing, for me,
is the art of casting a near weightless imitation of that food
with a fly rod. The casting of a fly rod is the one thing that
separates fly fishing from all other forms of fishing and so to
me "waving a stick" is most certainly the essence of fly fishing.

--
Ken Fortenberry

You gotta be kidding!
 

"Ken Fortenberry" wrote

The central essence of fly fishing, for me,
is the art of casting a near weightless imitation of that food
with a fly rod. The casting of a fly rod is the one thing that
separates fly fishing from all other forms of fishing and so to
me "waving a stick" is most certainly the essence of fly fishing.



Well, 'central essence' may be a bad choice of wording ... my point is that
fly casting follows from trying to fish with tiny nearly weightless lures.

The original central problem was how to catch those extremely exciting to
watch, delicious looking g, fish eating mayflies and such,.... fly
casting was the solution.

It's only recently ( within my lifetime ) that the opposite approach of
starting with the casting system and trying to make it suit fishing where it
is, honestly put, a handicap, has become the fad. There is no doubt that
there are anglers that choose casting method over fishing efficiency, but
that is not why fly fishing developed ... in fact I'd argue that deadly
effectiveness in some situations is the 'why' of fly fishing ...

Also, it's impossible to fly fish well without good casting skills ... that
is for sure. Casting skill is more important than naming bugs and such, I
don't imply otherwise.

But, from a fishing pov ( at least mine ), the need to fly cast follows the
desire to catch trout that are eating tiny food forms, not from some
intrinsic desire to 'fly cast for fly casting's sake.'

I'm NOT saying that entomology and Latin is needed ( or that helpful ) or
that casting huge, heavy, lures with heavy fly rods isn't fly fishing ( it
is incredibly inefficient fishing, but still fly fishing ).

NotBob seemed shocked at the size of lure used .... I'm simply saying that
fly casting is the result of that size, and the lure size results from
natural food form size .... i.e. the bugs ( the flies) are where the sport
started, the bamboo and silk and tight loops and dubbing and hackle followed
behind ... word that relationship as you will .... I think of it as saying
that the naturals are 'the essence" of this type of fishing


Larry L ( who hasn't owned any tackle except fly rods since August of 1971
..... but I'm only motivated by trout fishing for visible fish, ......
other forms of fishing bore me on the rare occasions I borrow tackle and try
them .. OR try to make a fly rod do what it's poorly equipped to do ...
form follows function ;- )


P.S. I don't think there is anything 'wrong' with finding the casting to
be the sports major pleasure, it works of lots of anglers and I'm glad they
get that pleasure. For me, the major pleasure is loving the places trout
live, followed by fooling the fish. I usually choose to fish places
where the less you cast the more you catch, and casts are only made ot fish
that can be seen. BUT I DO find pleasure in a cast well executed and I
definitely seek out the challenge of difficult lies ( casting tests ) as
they tend to hold the best fish. Much as I get bored quickly with most
fishing, I can't practice cast for 5 minutes without yawning ... for me,
casting 'follows from' the fishing, it isn't the major element of it G

You gotta be kidding!
 

On 2008-03-09, Larry L wrote:

NotBob seemed shocked at the size of lure used .... I'm simply saying that
fly casting is the result of that size, and the lure size results from
natural food form size .... i.e. the bugs ( the flies) are where the sport
started, the bamboo and silk and tight loops and dubbing and hackle followed
behind ... word that relationship as you will .... I think of it as saying
that the naturals are 'the essence" of this type of fishing

I completely understand the whole point of fly casting. As one FF sage
explained it, you have to get the bait out there. In any other fishing
style, the bait is the weight. In fly fishing, the line is the weight. So,
projecting that line out is everything, hence the unique casting
requirements. Makes perfect sense.

The point I was trying to make was how amazed I was at just how small that
fly can be. I was shocked at what I was going to have to do to get that
itty-bitty bug on a line and how small the line would have to be. Another
thing, the fly-shop guy said he had recently landed a 4 lb trout on a 16-18
nymph. Say what? I could hardly even see the fly, let alone the actual
hook. What part of a trout is so small as to be hooked by a barb so small it's
practically invisible? This is like the study of electricity. M: fscking
magic.

nb

You gotta be kidding!
 

notbob wrote:
...
The point I was trying to make was how amazed I was at just how small that
fly can be. I was shocked at what I was going to have to do to get that
itty-bitty bug on a line and how small the line would have to be. Another
thing, the fly-shop guy said he had recently landed a 4 lb trout on a 16-18
nymph. Say what? I could hardly even see the fly, let alone the actual
hook. What part of a trout is so small as to be hooked by a barb so small it's
practically invisible? This is like the study of electricity. M: fscking
magic.

If you follow the standard learning curve one of these days
your goal will be to join the 20-20 club. That is, land a 20"
trout (5-6 lbs. at least) on a size 20 fly. And if you persevere
you will eventually do it. Just take it one step at a time.

The steps:
1. Catch a fish.
2. Catch a lot of fish.
3. Catch a really big fish.
4. Catch a really big fish on a teeny weeny fly.

And then finally, if you're like most folks, you'll eventually
reach fly fishing zen; "Yeah, catching fish is better than not
catching fish but I'm just glad to be standing in a stream up
to my balls in cold water and enjoying life the universe and
everything."

Good luck on your journey.

--
Ken Fortenberry

You gotta be kidding!
 

On 2008-03-09, Ken Fortenberry wrote:

catching fish but I'm just glad to be standing in a stream up
to my balls in cold water and enjoying life the universe and
everything."

I'm part way there. My trailer only has a 10 gal water heater and the tub
doesn't drain worth a damn.

nb

You gotta be kidding!
 

"Ken Fortenberry" wrote in message
. net...
Larry L wrote:
..... you see,

'waving a stick' is NOT the central essence of fly fishing ...

understanding the natural food forms of our prey, is

.....

Well, different strokes for different folks but understanding
the natural food forms of our prey is the central essence of
aquatic biology. The central essence of fly fishing, for me,
is the art of casting a near weightless imitation of that food
with a fly rod. The casting of a fly rod is the one thing that
separates fly fishing from all other forms of fishing and so to
me "waving a stick" is most certainly the essence of fly fishing.

--
Ken Fortenberry

I'll have to agree with Ken,
although understanding the prey's natural food forms is essential, one would
still have to present it in imitations, and the way it is done in
"fly-fishing" is to "wave the stick".

I love the saying from the Rev. Mclean in "A River Runs Through It"
While giving lessons to the boys he says;
"If he had had his way, nobody who did not know how to catch a fish
would be allowed to disgrace a fish by catching it."

Staying the course with "notbob",
the #18 nymph is well in check in nymph fishing.

btw: Dave Whitlock has a great book out on Aquatic Trout Foods,
which he also talks about trout behavior.
-tom

You gotta be kidding!
 

Tom Nakashima wrote:
"Ken Fortenberry" wrote in message
. net...

Larry L wrote:

..... you see,

'waving a stick' is NOT the central essence of fly fishing ...

understanding the natural food forms of our prey, is

.....

Well, different strokes for different folks but understanding
the natural food forms of our prey is the central essence of
aquatic biology. The central essence of fly fishing, for me,
is the art of casting a near weightless imitation of that food
with a fly rod. The casting of a fly rod is the one thing that
separates fly fishing from all other forms of fishing and so to
me "waving a stick" is most certainly the essence of fly fishing.

--
Ken Fortenberry


I'll have to agree with Ken,
although understanding the prey's natural food forms is essential, one would
still have to present it in imitations, and the way it is done in
"fly-fishing" is to "wave the stick".

I love the saying from the Rev. Mclean in "A River Runs Through It"
While giving lessons to the boys he says;
"If he had had his way, nobody who did not know how to catch a fish
would be allowed to disgrace a fish by catching it."

Staying the course with "notbob",
the #18 nymph is well in check in nymph fishing.

btw: Dave Whitlock has a great book out on Aquatic Trout Foods,
which he also talks about trout behavior.
-tom



IMO, it's not an "either or" thing. Its important both to use the right
flies and to present them the correct way. I tend to agree with Larry,
though, that using the right flies is primary and that casting follows
from that.

--
Cut "to the chase" for my email address.

You gotta be kidding!
 

rw wrote in news:47d551ce$0$3527
:


IMO, it's not an "either or" thing. Its important both to use the right
flies and to present them the correct way. I tend to agree with Larry,
though, that using the right flies is primary and that casting follows
from that.

Well, "presentation" anyway. There's a bit that goes on between your cast
and your presentation when it comes to nymphs, and most of is goes on well
after your fly hits the water.

--
Scott
Reverse name to reply

You gotta be kidding!
 

This is NOT a 'pattern over presentation' thing I'm saying

... I'm simply saying, to NotBob, take up a fly rod because it allows the
use of tiny lures, NOT to 'cast in that cool looking way.'



Notbob has only made a few posts, but they all tend to show distain for the
reasons that ( let's be honest now ) many people become fly fishers ... i.e.
snob appeal, an excuse to exhibit buying power, to be 'in,' and to look cool
in all the pricey stuff while waving a stick.


SO,

given that distain, and without those 'social' reasons, WHAT is a valid
reason to take up fly fishing?

I'm suggesting that it is because it is a very efficient way to catch trout
.... BECAUSE trout tend to eat small food .... and suggestions of that tiny
food are best presented with a fly rod.



So, Notbob, to present those tiny lures you will need to learn to fly cast
reasonably well, but,

... again, from a FISHING pov, the reason for a fly rod is the little tiny
bugs trout eat, NOT the 'cool of casting.' The tiny bug comes first and is
the reason for the fancy rod, and casting lessons ... from a FISHING pov.

I know guys that own lots of very pricey rods, and cast to hula hoops at the
casting ponds. I know others that own dozens of shotguns and shoot trap or
sporting clays. Neither is 'wrong' but neither is looking at his tools and
skills from a pov I share .... the casting and the shooting are 'ok' but
not the real deal to me ( I fly cast well enough and I shoot
pretty damn well. But most of my fishing time is hunting and stalking
and positioning time, damn little is casting time. I average far less
shells per bird killed than the vast majority of hunters, but I know how to
get those birds in close for easy shots ........ hell, for me, casting or
pulling the trigger come after the real sport is nearly over ;-)

You gotta be kidding!
 

"Scott Seidman" wrote in message
. 1.4...
rw wrote in news:47d551ce$0$3527
:


IMO, it's not an "either or" thing. Its important both to use the right
flies and to present them the correct way. I tend to agree with Larry,
though, that using the right flies is primary and that casting follows
from that.

Well, "presentation" anyway. There's a bit that goes on between your cast
and your presentation when it comes to nymphs, and most of is goes on well
after your fly hits the water.
Scott

Scott is correct here,
There are a few anglers who think the casting stops after the fly hits the
water, but it's actually just beginning. Understanding the correct drift and
mending techniques are a big part of the cast.

Not sure what is meant by "right flies"?
If it catches fish, it's the right fly...or could be the left fly, or a
movie
about astronauts fly fishing. ;-)
I know a few astronauts, woops, sorry...fly-fisherman who just use searching
or attractors and are quite good at it.
-tom

You gotta be kidding!
 

On 2008-03-10, Larry L wrote:

get those birds in close for easy shots ........ hell, for me, casting or
pulling the trigger come after the real sport is nearly over ;-)

I only exhibit disdain for some FF types, and not because they spend lotsa
money. Hey, if you got it, spend it, I always say. But, my primary goal is
to catch fish so I can eat them. I've fished other styles --spin, bait,
boat, pier, etc-- ever since I was 8 yrs old and fishing just holds no
relaxing, zen-like, attraction for me. My brother was the fisherman and I'd
go with him or othe friends mainly for the camaraderie. OTOH, when I decide
to do it, I learn how because I want some fish. So, I will learn to cast.
I will learn what the trout eat and when it's available and how to present
it so they will bite. Pretty pointless if I don't. If it ends up I
eventually get all goose-pimpley and sappy over watching the water roil by,
that's all the better. I'm older now and can better appreciate such things.
We'll see.

nb

You gotta be kidding!
 

There is hope.

Winter is the time for small nymphs and flys. Once summer comes
around, you can start casting out those humongous size 12 or 14 dry
flys again.

Also, some hints for making tying on easier.

1) use 5x leader. I found that when using size 20 or 22 brassies, I
can't even fit a 4x leader through the eye of the hook. (6x works for
the drys).

2) I haven't tried it, but you could try to pre-tie on your nymphs at
home and tie them on in the stream with a double surgeons knot. One
advantage of small fly's. They don't go very deep into your skin, and
they don't get caught in the leader as much.

I have known some very good fishermen who eventually gave up fishing
the tiny flies that they used to love.


On Mar 10, 5:07 pm, notbob wrote:
On 2008-03-10, Larry L wrote:

get those birds in close for easy shots ........ hell, for me, casting or
pulling the trigger come after the real sport is nearly over ;-)

I only exhibit disdain for some FF types, and not because they spend lotsa
money. Hey, if you got it, spend it, I always say. But, my primary goal is
to catch fish so I can eat them. I've fished other styles --spin, bait,
boat, pier, etc-- ever since I was 8 yrs old and fishing just holds no
relaxing, zen-like, attraction for me. My brother was the fisherman and I'd
go with him or othe friends mainly for the camaraderie. OTOH, when I decide
to do it, I learn how because I want some fish. So, I will learn to cast.
I will learn what the trout eat and when it's available and how to present
it so they will bite. Pretty pointless if I don't. If it ends up I
eventually get all goose-pimpley and sappy over watching the water roil by,
that's all the better. I'm older now and can better appreciate such things.
We'll see.

nb

Carl

You gotta be kidding!
 

"Carl" wrote in message
...

I have known some very good fishermen who eventually gave up fishing
the tiny flies that they used to love.
Carl

Good point Carl,
When I first started fly-fishing, I didn't know there were different
sub-categories to the sport. Some are in it just to tie flies, others enjoy
the art of casting, some just like to fish, and then there are those who
enjoy it all.
Of course many of us have seen all different personalities in the sport
of fly-fishing as well. And I'm sure we've all been victims of spending
$$$ to support our hobby, whether it's buying a bunch of Orvis or A-Z brand
equipment to look good or dropping +$100 on specialty fly-line, or traveling
to different states or countries to cast a line.
The point I'm making here is, we should all enjoy the sport of fly-fishing
anyway we like, and I'm all for sharing different ideas, trip reports,
techniques, fly-tying, recipes, except for ****ing wars and name
calling..."you gotta be kidding!" ;-)
-tom

You gotta be kidding!
 

"Tom Nakashima" wrote

Of course many of us have seen all different personalities in the sport
of fly-fishing as well. And I'm sure we've all been victims of spending
$$$ to support our hobby, whether it's buying a bunch of Orvis or A-Z
brand equipment to look good or dropping +$100 on specialty fly-line, or
traveling to different states or countries to cast a line.
The point I'm making here is, we should all enjoy the sport of fly-fishing
anyway we like,


Absolutely, And I believe each angler goes through many 'personalities' in
his journey through the sport AND most of us enjoy MOST of the different
aspects of the sport at different times. For instance, when I decide to
fish a soft hackle down stream on the swing in the Firehole it is mainly for
the relaxing rhythm of the cast, mend, mend, cast ... i.e. to enjoy casting
.... not for the fish catching. It catches a ton of fish, but it's that
relaxation that motivates choice of the technique at those times.

One of those intrinsic aspects often seen and heard, but seldom pointed out
directly as being part of the sport, is the friendly arguments over things
like "pattern vs presentation" or "rod as art vs rod=only a tool" and " when
does a fly stop being a fly and become a lure." These discussions are
to be found where ever anglers bump into each other and should not be
misinterpreted as, or allowed to become, real hostility. I've argued all
sides of all of them at one time or the other.

Now, as for casting ... it is very easy to see that IT is THE major
requirement and essential skill of the sport ... maybe I'll argue that side
next time G

You gotta be kidding!
 

"Larry L" wrote in message
...

Now, as for casting ... it is very easy to see that IT is THE major
requirement and essential skill of the sport ... maybe I'll argue that
side next time G


For some yes, for others no, but I'm still not clear what there is to
argue? I've seen casting skills at all different levels, and different
styles too. It's up to the individual how far they want to take it and what
they wish to get out of it.

I have fly-fishing friends who are poorly skilled as fly-casters but yet
they catch fish. I also have friends who are greatly skilled in the art of
casting who have problems catching fish, and then many friends who fall
inbetween.
-tom

You gotta be kidding!
 

I have fly-fishing friends who are poorly skilled as fly-casters but yet
they catch fish. I also have friends who are greatly skilled in the art of
casting who have problems catching fish, and then many friends who fall
inbetween.

Fall in between casts or fish?
Frank Reid

You gotta be kidding!
 

"Frank Reid" wrote in message
...
I have fly-fishing friends who are poorly skilled as fly-casters but yet
they catch fish. I also have friends who are greatly skilled in the art
of
casting who have problems catching fish, and then many friends who fall
inbetween.

Fall in between casts or fish?
Frank Reid


Ah, so you know Felicia? we sometimes call her Fish.
-tom

You gotta be kidding!
 

I have fly-fishing friends who are poorly skilled as fly-casters but yet
they catch fish. I also have friends who are greatly skilled in the art
of
casting who have problems catching fish, and then many friends who fall
inbetween.

Fall in between casts or fish?
Frank Reid

Ah, so you know Felicia? we sometimes call her Fish.

Whoa! High School flashback!
Frank Reid

You gotta be kidding!
 

"Frank Reid" wrote in message
...
I have fly-fishing friends who are poorly skilled as fly-casters but
yet
they catch fish. I also have friends who are greatly skilled in the
art
of
casting who have problems catching fish, and then many friends who
fall
inbetween.

Fall in between casts or fish?
Frank Reid

Ah, so you know Felicia? we sometimes call her Fish.

Whoa! High School flashback!
Frank Reid

Yup...behind the backstop.
-tom

You gotta be kidding!
 

"jeffc" wrote in message .

Orvis. -------------
They're fairly average in quality and price. But they are ubuiquitous,
and that alone deserves at least a little resistance :-)
Joe the Elder wants you to know he read that and is thinking about their
ubuiquitousness.

You gotta be kidding!
 

On Mar 9, 9:07 pm, "Larry L" wrote:

Well, 'central essence' may be a bad choice of wording ... my point is that
fly casting follows from trying to fish with tiny nearly weightless lures.

The original central problem was how to catch those extremely exciting to
watch, delicious looking g, fish eating mayflies and such,.... fly
casting was the solution.



In many places, at many times, people fly-fished because it was the
most effective ( and cheapest!) method of catching the fish. Under
many circumstances, and in many different places and conditions, it
still is.

There are many things which may assist one in catching fish, but the
only really necessary one is the desire to catch the fish. Everything
else follows from that. The greater the desire, and the more time
spent so engaged, the better one becomes, which is why many of the old
subsistence fishers were such experts. They needed the fish to live,
and failure was not an option.

That was indeed the main reason I started fly-fishing. I caught more
and better fish using flies, than I did using any other method. I no
longer need the fish, although I still enjoy catching them. The
experience and knowledge gained when my motivation was different is
still there though.

TL
MC