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OT .. Thanks Forty & Frank ...
I bought RosettaStone Spanish ( Latin America) based largely on your
suggestions. I have a lifelong history of being terrible at learning languges, and was very concerned parting with so much money when I'm such a dolt. I'm several lessons into the program ... and there is no certainty of my success, BUT, this is the most powerful approach to learning language I've ever seen. I'm progressing and having fun doing so. |
OT .. Thanks Forty & Frank ...
On Thu, 17 Apr 2008 17:49:07 GMT, "Larry L"
wrote: I'm several lessons into the program ... and there is no certainty of my success, BUT, this is the most powerful approach to learning language I've ever seen. I'm progressing and having fun doing so. I'd appreciate it if you kept me posted on your progress. I deal with Spanish speaking folks two days a week, and although most of them speak English, it would be nice to communicate in their language. Dave |
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Larry
Keep studying When you go there and speak it you will still make errors but people will be much more frendly if you make the effort to speak thieir language in their country When I go to a Spanish speaking country ojn business I can make my presentation about our products in Spanish- after that for all I know they are saying to throw the bum oput as they speak too fast to understand their reaction .but as I am usually succesful I know that they appreciate the attempt to speak their language in their country as many people living here should speak ourr languager in our country Good luck. When you start to think in that language which you will, as you use, it thats when you can truly speak it Spaniish luckily is not that difficult esp when younger For me - now - It would be mmuch more difficult Fred Fred |
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OT .. Thanks Forty & Frank ...
Larry L wrote:
I bought RosettaStone Spanish ( Latin America) based largely on your suggestions. I have a lifelong history of being terrible at learning languges, and was very concerned parting with so much money when I'm such a dolt. I'm several lessons into the program ... and there is no certainty of my success, BUT, this is the most powerful approach to learning language I've ever seen. I'm progressing and having fun doing so. Glad to hear it, Larry. I wish you continued success with your language learning. Perhaps you can return the favor and recommend a book or books on dog training. I'm going to get my first ever pure bred dog in a few weeks and I'm going to train her myself. I've never had any dog that wasn't a shelter mutt and I loved them dearly but this time I went with a Labrador Retriever with a pedigree. I'm getting my dog from these folks: http://www.britishlabradors.com/ And the training program they have is this one: http://www.britishretrievertraining.com/index.html I like it because they stress not using e-collars, which is something I won't do. (I'm sure e-collars are fine in the right hands, but my hands are far too inexperienced.) Any advice or pointers appreciated. -- Ken Fortenberry |
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On Thu, 17 Apr 2008 15:04:40 -0500, Ken Fortenberry
wrote: Larry L wrote: I bought RosettaStone Spanish ( Latin America) based largely on your suggestions. I have a lifelong history of being terrible at learning languges, and was very concerned parting with so much money when I'm such a dolt. I'm several lessons into the program ... and there is no certainty of my success, BUT, this is the most powerful approach to learning language I've ever seen. I'm progressing and having fun doing so. Glad to hear it, Larry. I wish you continued success with your language learning. Perhaps you can return the favor and recommend a book or books on dog training. I'm going to get my first ever pure bred dog in a few weeks and I'm going to train her myself. I've never had any dog that wasn't a shelter mutt and I loved them dearly but this time I went with a Labrador Retriever with a pedigree. Elitist. I'm getting my dog from these folks: http://www.britishlabradors.com/ Why do you hate America? And the training program they have is this one: http://www.britishretrievertraining.com/index.html I like it because they stress not using e-collars, which is something I won't do. (I'm sure e-collars are fine in the right hands, but my hands are far too inexperienced.) Any advice or pointers appreciated. Pointer_S_? Lemme guess - French ones...greedy elitist... TC, R |
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"Ken Fortenberry" wrote Any advice or pointers appreciated. Consistency is far more important than specific 'method' ... attitude (trainer's ) is more important than technique Honestly, I haven't read a book on training in years but you asked so here ya go, some thoughts 1) The first step in training is the hardest and the most important. It is to decide EXACTLY what you want the dog trained to do! Don't laugh, I've trained hundreds for hundreds of people and none of those people started with a clear, precise, detailed, idea of what they wanted ( I always ask ). Define everything as detailed as you can ... example, if she is to ride in the canoe ... where?, in what posture?, on what command?, facing what direction?, is she allowed to move when a fish is flopping near by about to be landed? what command releases her to get out? before you and other humans, or after? etc etc ... decide BEFORE the first time she gets in one ( on dry ground so it ain't too scary ;-) and train basics BEFORE that day too ( say the 'down' command, ) The more detailed a picture of your ideal dog you get in your minds eye the better off you are .. and for ALL her tasks ... decide NOW what areas of the house she can access, what furniture she can climb on, and be consistent from "Day One." ( oh, and those urgent 3AM calls from her will require a trip outside and be truly urgent ;-) If you have questions what a 'good hunting dog" should do, try to find a Hunt Test to go see, you'll get some ideas, but, mainly, decide for yourself .... each hunter has different needs and desires ( why I hate training gun dogs and prefer the much more demanding work of trial dogs where, at least, I'm certain what the goal is in advance ) 2) The more steps you can break down getting from where you are... to where you want to be, ...the better. Much like my RosettaStone,, the steps should be nearly invisible, ie "seemless" to the student. Simple example .... she should learn to sit/stay while you walk away 2 feet before you try 4 feet !! Doh, you say! But assuming a dog understands what it really doesn't is the single biggest cause of training problems. I've seen guys ( henceforth referred to as 'morons' ) that couldn't even get Fido to sit stay in the backyard during minor distractions, erupt in fury when Fido broke to shot out hunting, thinking the poor beast understood 'stay" ... each tiny step is a NEW step to a dog ... they do NOT extrapolate well ... remember that to keep things pleasant ( I wrote part of a book one time, to be called "A Pleasant Journey" about training ... the title suggests my philosophy ( although I'm very demanding and use an e-collar ) and training CAN be very pleasant for both animals involved, 99.8% of the time, if you keep progress seemless and demands consistent 3) While training, look at your dog constantly at the same time keeping a mental image of what you're aiming for, in your mind. IF your efforts are making the real dog look a little more like that ideal, continue ( only has to be a little each day ... another way to say seemless steps ... but a little is essential ) . BUT, if not, do NOT continue to do the same old thing, over and over (regardless if it's in the book or not ) ... invent something new, or look for a new added 'step,' a new way to try and help her understand both what you want and that she must do it. "More of the same" when the "same" isn't working is **** poor dog training or other form of leadership .. Don't be a Republican. G 4) If you have specific questions or problems ( remember I specialzed in Field Trial retrievers, we recently got my first 'pet/ house dog' in 50 years .. my 'general' training experience is limited ) .. feel free to ask, Larry L OH ... one thing ... a hunting dog should NEVER be allowed to jump on anybody ... period, no exceptions, not in your house, not when she's glad you're home from work, NEVER ... a 12 gauge and a jumping dog is a bad mix |
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Larry L wrote:
"Ken Fortenberry" wrote: Any advice or pointers appreciated. Consistency is far more important than specific 'method' ... attitude (trainer's ) is more important than technique snip OH ... one thing ... a hunting dog should NEVER be allowed to jump on anybody ... period, no exceptions, not in your house, not when she's glad you're home from work, NEVER ... a 12 gauge and a jumping dog is a bad mix Thanks Larry. She will be a gun dog, both upland and waterfowl retriever but she'll also have a dog bed in front of the fireplace, free access to the couch and our bed upstairs. (Training a dog is a piece of cake compared to training a wife. ;-) We did OK with the basic obedience training with Kipper, he was smart and we were kind and consistent. The instructors at the dog training club were impressed that a hound dog could be trained much at all. (Prejudice is what I call it. ;-) But a few roffians have met Kipper and can attest that he was pretty well behaved. I guess I'm just freaking out at having my first "hunting dog" to train. I hope my new puppy is of the forgiving sort. -- Ken Fortenberry |
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On 17-Apr-2008, "Wolfgang" wrote: Larry Keep studying When you go there and speak it you will still make errors but people will be much more frendly if you make the effort to speak thieir language in their country When I go to a Spanish speaking country ojn business I can make my presentation about our products in Spanish- Ooh! Ooh! Do it here! Do it here! after that for all I know they are saying to throw the bum oput as they speak too fast to understand their reaction . Um, really? I mean, how fast can anyone say "que la chinga?"...(yeah, yeah, yeah, Chuck...it's just a joke, not a Spanish class...) but as I am usually succesful I know that they appreciate the attempt to speak their language in their country as many people living here should speak ourr languager in our country Ever tried any half-assed US high school French in, oh, say, France...? If this is all that you have to do with your time you are a pitiful little mab and a fool but we already knew that! So nothing new for you Fred |
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On 17-Apr-2008, Ken Fortenberry wrote: (Training a dog is a piece of cake compared to training a wife. ;-) On 17-Apr-2008, Ken Fortenberry wrote: (Training a dog is a piece of cake compared to training a wife. ;-) True words I understand the reason for the pedigree and the predicatability of their behavior We have a German Short Haired Poointer bitch and border collie male and they do their jobs Chasing birds and herding kids, cars, horses motorcyles etc Good luck You have 2-3 years of crazy puppyhood coming 'Do not let him chew on your waders or flyrods Fred |
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In article ,
says... Perhaps you can return the favor and recommend a book or books on dog training. "Training your Retriever" by James Lamb Free is the classic in the field (it says so right in the subtitle, after all.) http://www.amazon.com/Training-Your-Retriever-James- Lamb/dp/0399136207/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1208486691&sr=1-1 I also like Robinson: http://www.amazon.com/Training-Hunti...riever-Jerome- Robinson/dp/1558219366/ref=sr_1_12?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1208486691&sr=1- 12 and Tarrant: http://www.amazon.com/Training-Hunting-Retriever-New- Program/dp/0876055757/ref=sr_1_13?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1208489214&sr=1-13 I also highly recommend that you avoid anything by Richard Wolters like the plague. I'm nobody's expert on dog training, but I have had several Labradors in my life. I would concentrate on basic civilization (sit, stay, come, heel, etc.) and let everything else take care of itself. If you have a Lab from decent bloodlines, you shouldn't have to do much of anything to get it to find birds and retrieve to hand. Just get her out hunting as often as possible, and by the end of her first season, she will know more about finding pheasants than you ever will. Unless you want to get into the field trial game; then you'll have to work a lot harder at training. I've never had any interest in trialing myself. I'm happy enough knowing that I still have a bunch of ducks and pheasants stacked up in the freezer. Kevin -- Kevin Vang reply to kevin dot vang at minotstateu dot edu |
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I bought RosettaStone Spanish ( Latin America) based largely on your suggestions. * *I have a lifelong history of being terrible at learning languges, and was very concerned parting with so much money when I'm such a dolt. I'm several lessons into the program ... and there is no certainty of my success, BUT, this is the most powerful approach to learning language I've ever seen. *I'm progressing and having fun doing so. One thing about language skills (specifically your second, third, n language) is use and repetion. Its been 15 years since I've actively used Hungarian. I used to be at the native speaker, college educated in the language level. Now I can barely count to 10. Once you get comfortable, use your television or IPod. Watch Mexican soap operas or get pod casts of the news. You won't understand everything, but you'll start picking up the phraseology from context. It gets easier and easier, and then you'll get to the point where you realize that you just "thought" in the second language. Its an incredible feeling. Even having the TV on in the background on the spanish channels while your doing house work will help. Your brain will be trying to understand what its hearing and make sense of it. Granted, its short of an immersion program, but everything helps. Good luck with the study. My wife picks up language like she spends money on Lancome products. Piece of cake. I, on the other hand, have to work my ass off to learn a language. I know I'm not a natural linquist, just a cunning one. Frank Reid |
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Kevin Vang wrote:
says... Perhaps you can return the favor and recommend a book or books on dog training. "Training your Retriever" by James Lamb Free is the classic in the field (it says so right in the subtitle, after all.) http://www.amazon.com/Training-Your-Retriever-James- Lamb/dp/0399136207/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1208486691&sr=1-1 I also like Robinson: http://www.amazon.com/Training-Hunti...riever-Jerome- Robinson/dp/1558219366/ref=sr_1_12?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1208486691&sr=1- 12 and Tarrant: http://www.amazon.com/Training-Hunting-Retriever-New- Program/dp/0876055757/ref=sr_1_13?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1208489214&sr=1-13 I also highly recommend that you avoid anything by Richard Wolters like the plague. I'm nobody's expert on dog training, but I have had several Labradors in my life. I would concentrate on basic civilization (sit, stay, come, heel, etc.) and let everything else take care of itself. If you have a Lab from decent bloodlines, you shouldn't have to do much of anything to get it to find birds and retrieve to hand. Just get her out hunting as often as possible, and by the end of her first season, she will know more about finding pheasants than you ever will. Unless you want to get into the field trial game; then you'll have to work a lot harder at training. I've never had any interest in trialing myself. I'm happy enough knowing that I still have a bunch of ducks and pheasants stacked up in the freezer. Thanks for the book recommendations. No, I'm not interested in field trials either. My dog won't be suited for American field trials even though she comes from a long line of Field Trial Champions in Ireland and Britain. British Labradors are significantly smaller than their American cousins, slighter of build and with a quieter temperament. Male British Labs average 70-75 pounds, the females 53-58 pounds and while some have competed well in American field trials their small stature puts them at a disadvantage. We'll have to have that Dakota style Cast & Blast Clave one of these autumns, the 9wt and 20 gauge Clave ! -- Ken Fortenberry |
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"Kevin Vang" wrote "Training your Retriever" by James Lamb Free is the classic in the field (it says so right in the subtitle, after all.) http://www.amazon.com/Training-Your-Retriever-James- Lamb/dp/0399136207/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1208486691&sr=1-1 Gad, I read that when I got my first retriever ... it was chiseled into rock, back then ... I also highly recommend that you avoid anything by Richard Wolters like the plague. I knew Wolters and can testify that he couldn't teach a hungry dog to eat. His animals were embarassing ( but heah, he made a fortune with books on dogs ... makes ya wonder ) I'm nobody's expert on dog training, but I have had several Labradors in my life. I would concentrate on basic civilization (sit, stay, come, heel, etc.) and let everything else take care of itself. If you have a Lab from decent bloodlines, you shouldn't have to do much of anything to get it to find birds and retrieve to hand. Just get her out hunting as often as possible, and by the end of her first season, she will know more about finding pheasants than you ever will. I'd basically agree with that ... you might have to do a little force fetch work to get a good delivery ... when I get a new dog in to train, first I evaluate it ... if it won't natually retrieve with enthusiam and/ or doesn't show plenty of birdiness .... I send it packing ... in other words I only start training dogs that naturally do what many hunters think a dog will be trained to do .... mom and dad give pup the desire, training controls it to the point it's useful Unless you want to get into the field trial game; then you'll have to work a lot harder at training. I've never had any interest in trialing myself. the Field Trial game ( not Hunt Tests ) is an extremely challenging one, NOT at all suited for the average guy and his Fido .... I still do 'basics' for a few trial dogs, I did two this summer, for different people, both people compete at the National level and are 'serious' enough that they have bought large hunks of land and built acres of specially designed training ponds just for their own use ... it's a very competitive and expensive game ( the most I've heard of a single trial dog changing hands for was $250,000.00 ... and near $100K is fairly common ... not a typo ;-) ... these people are serious about winning ) Hunt Tests, however, can be a fun activity for guys that are more interested in dog work than the average, but not willing to spend extreme effort ... "most" Fidos worth training to hunt can get HT titles if you put in the hours ( but it's only worth it if both you and the dog enjoy those hours .. it's not 'needed' to fill the freezer ) |
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"Ken Fortenberry" wrote No, I'm not interested in field trials either. My dog won't be suited for American field trials even though she comes from a long line of Field Trial Champions in Ireland and Britain. British Labradors are significantly smaller than their American cousins, slighter of build and with a quieter temperament. Male British Labs average 70-75 pounds, the females 53-58 pounds and while some have competed well in American field trials their small stature puts them at a disadvantage. A dog from British Trial lines is an EXCELLENT choice for a gun dog ... mainly because of the quieter temperament You'll do great Ken, keep us updated ... got a name yet? |
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Larry L wrote:
"Ken Fortenberry" wrote: No, I'm not interested in field trials either. My dog won't be suited for American field trials even though she comes from a long line of Field Trial Champions in Ireland and Britain. British Labradors are significantly smaller than their American cousins, slighter of build and with a quieter temperament. Male British Labs average 70-75 pounds, the females 53-58 pounds and while some have competed well in American field trials their small stature puts them at a disadvantage. A dog from British Trial lines is an EXCELLENT choice for a gun dog ... mainly because of the quieter temperament You'll do great Ken, keep us updated ... got a name yet? Thanks Larry. We want a name that reflects the Irish in her bloodline and starts with a K. (My wife is Kristine with a K, my first name starts with a K, so there you have it. ;-) I'm leaning toward Kerry and my wife seems partial to Kelty. -- Ken Fortenberry |
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"Frank Reid" wrote Once you get comfortable, use your television or IPod. Watch Mexican soap operas or get pod casts of the news. You won't understand everything, but you'll start picking up the phraseology from context. It gets easier and easier, and then you'll get to the point where you realize that you just "thought" in the second language. Its an incredible feeling. Even having the TV on in the background on the spanish channels while your doing house work will help. Your brain will be trying to understand what its hearing and make sense of it. Granted, its short of an immersion program, but everything helps. Good luck with the study. My wife picks up language like she spends money on Lancome products. Piece of cake. I, on the other hand, have to work my ass off to learn a language. I know I'm not a natural linquist, just a cunning one. Frank Reid ummm .... no in front of the quoted text ... happens some times and I don't know why oh, back to .. where were we? oh yeah, memory Thanks for the suggestions Frank .... I've been trying the TV thing a bit and can see how it could help ... I was riding my bike yesterday and went past a place with the radio blaring in Spanish, I noticed that I understood a couple sentences !!! Now a couple sentences surely ain't much, but I still found it exciting. IYO, would it be better to turn on kid's programs ( I'm thinking Sesame St in spanish ) or something I'd be more honestly interested in as a program? Just curious how you think the brain would work .. ie easy learning vs motivated learning I watched a PBS program on the brain and keeping it 'plastic' into old age recently .. they specifically mentioned learning a language as a good exercise and also mentioned that motivation ( focus ) was essential to 'turn on' the synapse linking functions within the brain, apparently you can't learn well unless you really want to learn and that gets truer with age. I'm really looking forward to getting brave enough to go into a local Mexican grocery and try shopping in spanish .... I stopped on the same bike ride yesterday and chatted with a woman about her goats ( lots of goats around here, more and more each year ) and she was telling me goat meat is available there ... I've never tried it ... kinda scary thinking what I might actually end up with shopping for goat meat in a language I can't really speak ... ah life's little adventures G |
OT .. Thanks Forty & Frank ...
I bought RosettaStone Spanish ( Latin America) based largely on your
suggestions. * *I have a lifelong history of being terrible at learning languges, and was very concerned parting with so much money when I'm such a dolt. I'm several lessons into the program ... and there is no certainty of my success, BUT, this is the most powerful approach to learning language I've ever seen. *I'm progressing and having fun doing so. Well, keep learning and good luck. You might also want to try having the TV on in the background to a Spanish channel or listen to podcasts of Spanish language news. No, you won't understand every thing they say, but your brain will be immersed in the language and that really helps. Its a skill you have to keep practicing. I stopped using Hungarian over 15 years ago. I used to speak at the level of college- edudcated in the language. Now I can barely count to 10 in Hungarian. My wife is a natural linguist. She picks up languages like she spends money on Lancome and shoes. I, on the other hand, have to study my ass off to learn and work smarter. I may not be a natural linguist, but I'm a cunning one. Frank Reid |
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On Fri, 18 Apr 2008 15:07:23 GMT, "Larry L"
wrote: I stopped on the same bike ride yesterday and chatted with a woman about her goats ( lots of goats around here, more and more each year ) and she was telling me goat meat is available there ... I've never tried it ... kinda scary thinking what I might actually end up with shopping for goat meat in a language I can't really speak ... ah life's little adventures G FWIW, there's a BIG difference between _goat_ (as in "old") and cabrito (kid, young goat) - sorta like lamb vs mutton. I like cabrito and lamb, not so much goat and mutton. Both can be had in a number of cultures/cuisines and most variants can be had all over the US, most readily found, IME, in Mexican (cabrito) and Jamaican (jerk goat, etc.) restaurants, and as Brazilian restaurants become more popular, you might find it there. Unless you like organ meats, stay away from any Mexican cabrito "stews" - they don't all contain such, but some do, and until you know what's what... IAC, and IMO, cabrito "al pastor" (grilled, BBQ) is best anyway. TC, R |
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Larry L wrote:
"Kevin Vang" wrote "Training your Retriever" by James Lamb Free is the classic in the field (it says so right in the subtitle, after all.) http://www.amazon.com/Training-Your-Retriever-James- Lamb/dp/0399136207/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1208486691&sr=1-1 Gad, I read that when I got my first retriever ... it was chiseled into rock, back then ... I also highly recommend that you avoid anything by Richard Wolters like the plague. I knew Wolters and can testify that he couldn't teach a hungry dog to eat. His animals were embarassing ( but heah, he made a fortune with books on dogs ... makes ya wonder ) I'm nobody's expert on dog training, but I have had several Labradors in my life. I would concentrate on basic civilization (sit, stay, come, heel, etc.) and let everything else take care of itself. If you have a Lab from decent bloodlines, you shouldn't have to do much of anything to get it to find birds and retrieve to hand. Just get her out hunting as often as possible, and by the end of her first season, she will know more about finding pheasants than you ever will. I'd basically agree with that ... you might have to do a little force fetch work to get a good delivery ... when I get a new dog in to train, first I evaluate it ... if it won't natually retrieve with enthusiam and/ or doesn't show plenty of birdiness ... I send it packing ... in other words I only start training dogs that naturally do what many hunters think a dog will be trained to do .... mom and dad give pup the desire, training controls it to the point it's useful Unless you want to get into the field trial game; then you'll have to work a lot harder at training. I've never had any interest in trialing myself. the Field Trial game ( not Hunt Tests ) is an extremely challenging one, NOT at all suited for the average guy and his Fido .... I still do 'basics' for a few trial dogs, I did two this summer, for different people, both people compete at the National level and are 'serious' enough that they have bought large hunks of land and built acres of specially designed training ponds just for their own use ... it's a very competitive and expensive game ( the most I've heard of a single trial dog changing hands for was $250,000.00 ... and near $100K is fairly common ... not a typo ;-) ... these people are serious about winning ) Hunt Tests, however, can be a fun activity for guys that are more interested in dog work than the average, but not willing to spend extreme effort ... "most" Fidos worth training to hunt can get HT titles if you put in the hours ( but it's only worth it if both you and the dog enjoy those hours .. it's not 'needed' to fill the freezer ) at $1500 a puppy, what do you think that investment yields? i must lack the genetic stuff that appreciates the huge dollars involved in the "bloodline" commerce in dogs. my relationship with canines has always been at the most basic and common level...essentially their servant and (hopefully) friend. i've observed the intensity and competitiveness of field trial and hunt training...always with electric shock and shotgun salt. it was repulsive to me. i know folks that have spent large dollars to acquire field trial and hunting dogs. each of them has also owned a dog that was of the ordinary 150 to 300 dollar akc variety. frankly, i saw nothing unique or more worthy in the more expensive dog.... jeff |
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"jeff miller" wrote at $1500 a puppy, what do you think that investment yields? not sure I understand that question .... I have always told MY clients, and believed myself, that unless the activity itself, the training, the time spent outside, etc was enough .. don't even consider the sport fwiw, there is no money to be made in trials, no prize money, .... the reason some dogs sell for big bucks is simply dogs with that quality ( qualities NOT obvious to casual observation ) are very rare ... as is talent that can make the big leagues ( see below ) ...always with electric shock and shotgun salt. it was repulsive to me. I can understand that. Let me say only this .. in the hands of skilled trainers an e-collar is a wonderful tool that limits, yes limits, stress on the dog. I worked a gun dog today, with it's owner issuing the commands. At the end of the session that owner commented nellie had done well and that I hadn't "used the collar" at all ... but I had, just so lightly the dog showed no sign except changed behavior. BUT, there are a lot of pretty crappy trainers in the world, and, frankly, "pro dog trainer" means zilch, I know many I wouldn't let touch my dog, period. As for "shotgun training," repulses me too .. and fwiw, I've only met east coast trainers that use it, never seen or heard of it out here My favorite dog training quote is from Delmar Smith, " A man can learn to control any animal, if he first learns to control himself." i know folks that have spent large dollars to acquire field trial and hunting dogs. each of them has also owned a dog that was of the ordinary 150 to 300 dollar akc variety. frankly, i saw nothing unique or more worthy in the more expensive dog.... I don't think $$ is the key here ... I've seen 'ordinary' dogs achieve greatness ... and therefore become valuable ... it is a myth that much value comes with the pedigree, per se Field trials are like big league baseball, hunt tests like playing on the company softball team, gundogs like tossing a ball in the backyard with the family ... culture, and each of us, values those 'ball players' differently, but only a fool would think the big league guy is probably having the best life ... as in dog sports, the costs of winning can often be higher than the value of that win. FWIW, although I made a living for 30 years training trial dogs I do not and never have suggest trials to anyone ... and I actively advise against most field trial 'blood' for gun dog/pet owners |
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Larry L wrote:
"jeff miller" wrote at $1500 a puppy, what do you think that investment yields? not sure I understand that question .... I have always told MY clients, and believed myself, that unless the activity itself, the training, the time spent outside, etc was enough .. don't even consider the sport fwiw, there is no money to be made in trials, no prize money, .... the reason some dogs sell for big bucks is simply dogs with that quality ( qualities NOT obvious to casual observation ) are very rare ... as is talent that can make the big leagues ( see below ) ...always with electric shock and shotgun salt. it was repulsive to me. I can understand that. Let me say only this .. in the hands of skilled trainers an e-collar is a wonderful tool that limits, yes limits, stress on the dog. I worked a gun dog today, with it's owner issuing the commands. At the end of the session that owner commented nellie had done well and that I hadn't "used the collar" at all ... but I had, just so lightly the dog showed no sign except changed behavior. BUT, there are a lot of pretty crappy trainers in the world, and, frankly, "pro dog trainer" means zilch, I know many I wouldn't let touch my dog, period. As for "shotgun training," repulses me too .. and fwiw, I've only met east coast trainers that use it, never seen or heard of it out here My favorite dog training quote is from Delmar Smith, " A man can learn to control any animal, if he first learns to control himself." i know folks that have spent large dollars to acquire field trial and hunting dogs. each of them has also owned a dog that was of the ordinary 150 to 300 dollar akc variety. frankly, i saw nothing unique or more worthy in the more expensive dog.... I don't think $$ is the key here ... I've seen 'ordinary' dogs achieve greatness ... and therefore become valuable ... it is a myth that much value comes with the pedigree, per se Field trials are like big league baseball, hunt tests like playing on the company softball team, gundogs like tossing a ball in the backyard with the family ... culture, and each of us, values those 'ball players' differently, but only a fool would think the big league guy is probably having the best life ... as in dog sports, the costs of winning can often be higher than the value of that win. FWIW, although I made a living for 30 years training trial dogs I do not and never have suggest trials to anyone ... and I actively advise against most field trial 'blood' for gun dog/pet owners well said larry. didn't intend any of my comment to be critical of you or your efforts as a trainer, just my observations of some things here in nc...and i've no experience as a trainer. my dogs train me - a circumstance we both approve of and accept. i've seen dogs yelp and almost turn a flip from the electric collar training...it troubled me a lot when i witnessed it. i've also seen the wounds inflicted by the salt shots. i'm not a hunter, or a trainer, so my sensitivity is probably out of the norm with regard to dog training methods. still, it bothered me a lot. my best friend owned two fabulous hunting dogs that he also field-trialed. he was very tough with the dog...ear pinches, ear bites, mean loud voice, electric collar (said he used the salt in shotgun method, but i never saw him do it)... but, he genuinely loved the dog. when the dog died, he cried. he still speaks reverently of smoke and rush. it remains an oddity i can't reconcile. i can't imagine doing anything intentionally that hurt my dog. the $1500 comment was directed mainly at those who develop a commercial venture in dogs dependent on field trial or hunting blood-lines and those who buy them. a 250k or 100k dog is clearly a "different" breed, as are their owners. jeff (btw...despite my initial plans otherwise, i've succumbed to the troutforce of montana yet again, and hope to be there july 11-18 this year. if you'll be in the area of reynolds or west yellowstone, perhaps we can share a meal if not a creek. i'll be camping somedamnwhere. the slide inn has shifted focus and now caters to wealthy republicans. g) |
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"jeff miller" wrote . i can't imagine doing anything intentionally that hurt my dog. As rdean would say, this might not help but a true story that I get a kick out of I got a call, and was asked, "Are you a dog trainer?" "Yes, what can I do for you?" "Well my yellow Lab climbs up on the counter when ever I'm cooking and eats all our food. She just ruined a whole roast. How can I stop her?" Me, "That is not at all my type of training but I can offer some simple advice. When she climbs up there, say 'no' very firmly and do something that she finds very unpleasant, swat her butt HARD, for instance. At this point it has to be more unpleasant than the food is pleasant." The female caller, tone indignant, "I could NEVER do anything to hurt my dog !!" Me, again, " Well, in that case I suggest you put the food on the floor and save her the trouble of all that climbing." Click .. somehow we were cut off .. surely she didn't hang up on me after I gave her such sensible, and honest, advice ? G |
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Larry L wrote:
"jeff miller" wrote . i can't imagine doing anything intentionally that hurt my dog. As rdean would say, this might not help but a true story that I get a kick out of I got a call, and was asked, "Are you a dog trainer?" "Yes, what can I do for you?" "Well my yellow Lab climbs up on the counter when ever I'm cooking and eats all our food. She just ruined a whole roast. How can I stop her?" Me, "That is not at all my type of training but I can offer some simple advice. When she climbs up there, say 'no' very firmly and do something that she finds very unpleasant, swat her butt HARD, for instance. At this point it has to be more unpleasant than the food is pleasant." The female caller, tone indignant, "I could NEVER do anything to hurt my dog !!" Me, again, " Well, in that case I suggest you put the food on the floor and save her the trouble of all that climbing." Click .. somehow we were cut off .. surely she didn't hang up on me after I gave her such sensible, and honest, advice ? G Great story. Some people have this dog worship thing. It drives me nuts. In my experience, dogs need to know the rules -- the reasonable rules. Once they know them, they'll obey them. They are creatures of habit. They need structure. It's the owners job to give them that predictable structure. Then they'll be happy and well mannered. I used a training collar for the first time this spring, on my girlfriend's dog, a totally (to that point) unmanageable Anatolian Sheperd Winnemucca Pound Pup. The dog was impossible. Whenever he saw cows or elk, off he'd go on a wild and illegal and dangerous romp. The training collar (i.e. shock collar) was a one-time fix for a solid come/stay. It was like magic. -- Cut "to the chase" for my email address. |
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On Fri, 18 Apr 2008 22:19:11 -0400, jeff miller
wrote: jeff (btw...despite my initial plans otherwise, i've succumbed to the troutforce of montana yet again, and hope to be there july 11-18 this year. if you'll be in the area of reynolds or west yellowstone, perhaps we can share a meal if not a creek. i'll be camping somedamnwhere. the slide inn has shifted focus and now caters to wealthy republicans. g) I'll be out there all of June, but will be back home by July. I'll leave plenty of fish for you. ;-) -- Charlie... http://www.chocphoto.com |
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On Apr 17, 12:18*pm, Dave LaCourse wrote:
On Thu, 17 Apr 2008 17:49:07 GMT, "Larry L" wrote: I'm several lessons into the program ... and there is no certainty of my success, BUT, this is the most powerful approach to learning language I've ever seen. *I'm progressing and having fun doing so. I'd appreciate it if you kept me posted on your progress. *I deal with Spanish speaking folks two days a week, and although most of them speak English, it would be nice to communicate in their language. Dave I think some of the best learning language stuff was developed in the 1950's and '60s, but lost out to some of the bizarre notions of the American Language Association, which lives for perpetuating the self- defeating folk belief that a nation of immigrants is inherently bad at languages. Anyway that's my 15 second summary of a favorite rant of mine. Without a doubt, the single best book for learning Spanish I have found in 45 years of "learning" Spanish, is still in print after being written 56 years ago . . . Margarita Madrigal's, "Madrigal's Magic Key to Spanish," Broadway Books/New York, 26th paperback printing in 2001, with (Get This) "original illustrations by Andy Warhol." You will learn more in the first hundred pages that most learn in years. Madrigal gives you an instant vocabulary by showing how more than half of English is readily usable as Spanish via slight modification of cogantes and near-cognates, thanks to the Norman Conquest. So that gives you a heap of adjectives, adverbs, and nouns. Then she gives you a mnemonic key to verb conjugation. That deal with verb endings denoting person(s), and tense is hard for folk starting with English. Anyway Madrigal is amazingly effective, And cheap ($13). Dave |
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On Apr 18, 9:27*am, wrote:
On Fri, 18 Apr 2008 15:07:23 GMT, "Larry L" wrote: I stopped on the same bike ride yesterday and chatted with a woman about her goats ( lots of goats around here, more and more each year ) and she was telling me goat meat is available there ... I've never tried it ... kinda scary thinking what I might actually end up with shopping for goat meat in a language I can't really speak ... ah life's little adventures G FWIW, there's a BIG difference between _goat_ (as in "old") and cabrito (kid, young goat) - sorta like lamb vs mutton. *I like cabrito and lamb, not so much goat and mutton. *Both can be had in a number of cultures/cuisines and most variants can be had all over the US, most readily found, IME, in Mexican (cabrito) and Jamaican (jerk goat, etc.) restaurants, and as Brazilian restaurants become more popular, you might find it there. *Unless you like organ meats, stay away from any Mexican cabrito "stews" - they don't all contain such, but some do, and until you know what's what... *IAC, and IMO, cabrito "al pastor" (grilled, BBQ) is best anyway. TC, R I don't see cabrito on the Mexican menues up here, not even much in the Yakima Valley. You do see a hell of a lot more goat being raised on the latino mini-farms. What is more available, but often not on the written menu is "barrego," generally cooked till its falling off the bone. Dave |
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On Apr 19, 3:16*am, wrote:
On Apr 18, 9:27*am, wrote: On Fri, 18 Apr 2008 15:07:23 GMT, "Larry L" wrote: I stopped on the same bike ride yesterday and chatted with a woman about her goats ( lots of goats around here, more and more each year ) and she was telling me goat meat is available there ... I've never tried it ... kinda scary thinking what I might actually end up with shopping for goat meat in a language I can't really speak ... ah life's little adventures G FWIW, there's a BIG difference between _goat_ (as in "old") and cabrito (kid, young goat) - sorta like lamb vs mutton. *I like cabrito and lamb, not so much goat and mutton. *Both can be had in a number of cultures/cuisines and most variants can be had all over the US, most readily found, IME, in Mexican (cabrito) and Jamaican (jerk goat, etc.) restaurants, and as Brazilian restaurants become more popular, you might find it there. *Unless you like organ meats, stay away from any Mexican cabrito "stews" - they don't all contain such, but some do, and until you know what's what... *IAC, and IMO, cabrito "al pastor" (grilled, BBQ) is best anyway. TC, R I don't see cabrito on the Mexican menues up here, not even much in the Yakima Valley. You do see a hell of a lot more goat being raised on the latino mini-farms. What is more available, but often not on the written menu is "barrego," generally cooked till its falling off the bone. Dave- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Correction: Its "Borrego," and its a lamb shank, not goat. Sometimes the shoulder is also called borrego. Anyway its a great way to do lamb. Dave |
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Larry L wrote:
"jeff miller" wrote . i can't imagine doing anything intentionally that hurt my dog. As rdean would say, this might not help but a true story that I get a kick out of I got a call, and was asked, "Are you a dog trainer?" "Yes, what can I do for you?" "Well my yellow Lab climbs up on the counter when ever I'm cooking and eats all our food. She just ruined a whole roast. How can I stop her?" Me, "That is not at all my type of training but I can offer some simple advice. When she climbs up there, say 'no' very firmly and do something that she finds very unpleasant, swat her butt HARD, for instance. At this point it has to be more unpleasant than the food is pleasant." The female caller, tone indignant, "I could NEVER do anything to hurt my dog !!" Me, again, " Well, in that case I suggest you put the food on the floor and save her the trouble of all that climbing." Click .. somehow we were cut off .. surely she didn't hang up on me after I gave her such sensible, and honest, advice ? G the loud voice thing has always worked for me... but, no hang up here. i don't think the butt swat routine on an isolated or single purpose basis is the same as the ECs or salt shot, butt g rachel and i aren't trainers or very good parents. sadie is spoiled but the most lovable dog i've ever been owned by. jeff |
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rw wrote:
Larry L wrote: "jeff miller" wrote . i can't imagine doing anything intentionally that hurt my dog. As rdean would say, this might not help but a true story that I get a kick out of I got a call, and was asked, "Are you a dog trainer?" "Yes, what can I do for you?" "Well my yellow Lab climbs up on the counter when ever I'm cooking and eats all our food. She just ruined a whole roast. How can I stop her?" Me, "That is not at all my type of training but I can offer some simple advice. When she climbs up there, say 'no' very firmly and do something that she finds very unpleasant, swat her butt HARD, for instance. At this point it has to be more unpleasant than the food is pleasant." The female caller, tone indignant, "I could NEVER do anything to hurt my dog !!" Me, again, " Well, in that case I suggest you put the food on the floor and save her the trouble of all that climbing." Click .. somehow we were cut off .. surely she didn't hang up on me after I gave her such sensible, and honest, advice ? G Great story. Some people have this dog worship thing. It drives me nuts. In my experience, dogs need to know the rules -- the reasonable rules. Once they know them, they'll obey them. They are creatures of habit. They need structure. It's the owners job to give them that predictable structure. Then they'll be happy and well mannered. I used a training collar for the first time this spring, on my girlfriend's dog, a totally (to that point) unmanageable Anatolian Sheperd Winnemucca Pound Pup. The dog was impossible. Whenever he saw cows or elk, off he'd go on a wild and illegal and dangerous romp. The training collar (i.e. shock collar) was a one-time fix for a solid come/stay. It was like magic. shock on...no doubt, infliction of physical pain can be a great teacher and molder of behavior and thought (and not just in dogs)...simply not my approach. ... i do note the "invisible fence" business is thriving in these parts though. jeff |
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Charlie Choc wrote:
On Fri, 18 Apr 2008 22:19:11 -0400, jeff miller wrote: jeff (btw...despite my initial plans otherwise, i've succumbed to the troutforce of montana yet again, and hope to be there july 11-18 this year. if you'll be in the area of reynolds or west yellowstone, perhaps we can share a meal if not a creek. i'll be camping somedamnwhere. the slide inn has shifted focus and now caters to wealthy republicans. g) I'll be out there all of June, but will be back home by July. I'll leave plenty of fish for you. ;-) i'll be interested in hearing your take on the conditions in june. i remember one trip in july when runoff was still a problem on some streams...sorry to hear you won't stiil be around. i'll no doubt require a bit of stewardship in getting the camping thing down...esp. the hot shower part. g i'm flying in to salt lake city, renting a tiny car, and driving up. any suggestions about the route based on your experience? jeff |
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"rw" wrote in message m... Great story. Some people have this dog worship thing. It drives me nuts. In my experience, dogs need to know the rules -- the reasonable rules. Once they know them, they'll obey them. They are creatures of habit. They need structure. It's the owners job to give them that predictable structure. Then they'll be happy and well mannered. I used a training collar for the first time this spring, on my girlfriend's dog, a totally (to that point) unmanageable Anatolian Sheperd Winnemucca Pound Pup. The dog was impossible. Whenever he saw cows or elk, off he'd go on a wild and illegal and dangerous romp. The training collar (i.e. shock collar) was a one-time fix for a solid come/stay. It was like magic. -- Cut "to the chase" for my email address. The best training that I have personally experienced was with the Lenoir Police Departments K9 Training Unit. They put on a Civilians K9 Training course once a year. The course is designed for discipline purposes only--no attack training. When I first brought Bear home to mother--after I had to putdown Beau-re-Guard, the love of mine and mother's lives for over 12 years--Bear would run from me every time I call him to me. He would bolt after deer, when we took our hikes on the mountain. The LPD trained me to become the alpha male and now if Bear sees a deer on the property, he bolts, I holler "Bear Come" and he stops looks at me, looks back at where the deer had been a split second ago and then he bounds back to me. No shock collar were used in training, just a light tug on a choke collar was employed. I worked with Bear for the eight weeks of training, but he came around within the third week. It was a simple matter of taking him on walks or around the back yard 15 minutes a day. Bear has become my go to fishin' buddy and will accompany Mr. Jeff Miller and I this year on our annual NC fishin' get together. As a matter of fact, Bear and I are going fishing in about an hour from now. I have posted some pics, over at ABPF, of Bear and I from last June on Upper Creek. He only leaves my side during breaks and when he can't negotiate the path I have chosen up stream. Otherwise he is either by my side or right behind me at all times. Bear is a one hundred and fifteen pounds of joy and enthusiasm. Op |
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jeff miller wrote:
rw wrote: I used a training collar for the first time this spring, on my girlfriend's dog, a totally (to that point) unmanageable Anatolian Sheperd Winnemucca Pound Pup. The dog was impossible. Whenever he saw cows or elk, off he'd go on a wild and illegal and dangerous romp. The training collar (i.e. shock collar) was a one-time fix for a solid come/stay. It was like magic. shock on...no doubt, infliction of physical pain can be a great teacher and molder of behavior and thought (and not just in dogs)...simply not my approach. ... i do note the "invisible fence" business is thriving in these parts though. jeff The correct use of the training collar to teach "come" doesn't involve much if any pain -- only mild discomfort. The idea is not to punish the dog for not coming, but to reward him for coming. The technique is to first find the lowest setting at which the dog responds. You can test it on yourself by putting your fingers on the electrodes. When the dog doesn't come you push the button and KEEP IT ON. When the dog comes and sits you release the button. He is not allowed to run off until you give a "break" command. The basic idea is to get the dog to think that you have super powers to affect him at a distance. Many years ago I had a Malamute -- a notoriously "hard" breed -- that wouldn't come. A sharp hit in the flank with a slingshot fixed that for good. The way I see it, it's far better for the dog to avoid running into the highway or getting shot by a rancher for chasing cows or shot for chasing game than it is to get a minor shock. Once the training is done, which typically requires only a very few trials, the collar is not needed. Then you will have a well behaved dog with a solid "come." Training collars are not for every dog. My Border Collie, for example, would probably totally freak out. She's so eager to please that it's not necessary in any case. BTW, if you can't leave a plate of pork chops on the coffee table, alone with your dog, and expect the pork chops to be there when you return, your dog is poorly trained. A well trained dog is a joy. A poorly trained one is a headache. -- Cut "to the chase" for my email address. |
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On Sun, 20 Apr 2008 09:31:10 -0400, jeff miller
wrote: i'm flying in to salt lake city, renting a tiny car, and driving up. any suggestions about the route based on your experience? I would suggest I-80 to Rock Springs, then up US 191 either all the way to Jackson and up through Grand Teton, or get off 191 at Farson and up through Lander and Dubois. Both routes will take you through some nice scenery, the route through Dubois being prettier but also longer. The fastest and shortest way is up I-15 to Idaho Falls and from there to West Yellowstone. -- Charlie... http://www.chocphoto.com |
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rw wrote:
jeff miller wrote: rw wrote: I used a training collar for the first time this spring, on my girlfriend's dog, a totally (to that point) unmanageable Anatolian Sheperd Winnemucca Pound Pup. The dog was impossible. Whenever he saw cows or elk, off he'd go on a wild and illegal and dangerous romp. The training collar (i.e. shock collar) was a one-time fix for a solid come/stay. It was like magic. shock on...no doubt, infliction of physical pain can be a great teacher and molder of behavior and thought (and not just in dogs)...simply not my approach. ... i do note the "invisible fence" business is thriving in these parts though. jeff The correct use of the training collar to teach "come" doesn't involve much if any pain -- only mild discomfort. The idea is not to punish the dog for not coming, but to reward him for coming. The technique is to first find the lowest setting at which the dog responds. You can test it on yourself by putting your fingers on the electrodes. When the dog doesn't come you push the button and KEEP IT ON. When the dog comes and sits you release the button. He is not allowed to run off until you give a "break" command. The basic idea is to get the dog to think that you have super powers to affect him at a distance. Many years ago I had a Malamute -- a notoriously "hard" breed -- that wouldn't come. A sharp hit in the flank with a slingshot fixed that for good. The way I see it, it's far better for the dog to avoid running into the highway or getting shot by a rancher for chasing cows or shot for chasing game than it is to get a minor shock. Once the training is done, which typically requires only a very few trials, the collar is not needed. Then you will have a well behaved dog with a solid "come." Training collars are not for every dog. My Border Collie, for example, would probably totally freak out. She's so eager to please that it's not necessary in any case. BTW, if you can't leave a plate of pork chops on the coffee table, alone with your dog, and expect the pork chops to be there when you return, your dog is poorly trained. A well trained dog is a joy. A poorly trained one is a headache. i have no idea what we did to or for sadie, our mainly golden, but dash of other breeds, stray. we took her in when she was about 2 months old, either abandoned or lost for several days. swollen belly, not doing well, but puppy cute. she did the house training thing quick, and learned most other things following the loud voice training approach. she loves the woods and used to hike with me a lot...never running far from me and always keeping her eye on me and my location. i got lost in the mountains once, and she kept close with me the 8 hours it took me to find a road. i think she was probably the weak, shy dog in a litter, and some asshole simply dumped her on a mountain road. we've never used any painful or scary treatment. nevertheless, she stays in the yard without a fence, even at night alone. and, while she is always ready to eat anything we eat, she won't steal it. i often leave food plates where she could get at them while i'm out of the room, and she doesn't take it. we take her to my office every day we are there, where she's now part of the office staff, and the best-behaved, happiest member of the family...and the one many folks prefer to see. she is a reasonably well-behaved dog and a joy...so i know what you mean. i understand the principles you describe, and the need. thus far, I've not had the need. my original comments dealt with painful training methods...shooting a dog, shocking it so severely that it yelped and one that even turned a flip (it was running on a "blind" during training, but in the wrong direction), biting its ear...etc. i just can't bring myself to do those things...my own personal flaw i guess. if i had a really bad or frustrating dog that required temporarily-harsh training methods, i'd probably try to find a trainer to do the dirty work of discipline in my absence or i'd find a better-suited owner and home for it. jeff |
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