TOM KIRKMAN, RODBUILDING.ORG BB, MY DECEMBER 1,2003 POST, ETHICS
 

I found a good deal for rod support roller o-rings at C & G Tackle
Outlet, which are
selling for fifty cents ($.50) less than Renzetti's current price.
Renzetti is
'Kirkman's sponsor'; C & G Tackle Outlet can more than likely be
termed: 'less
than Kirkman's sponsor', as i have been summarily informed.

When i posted this information on rodbuilding.org, Kirkman removed my
post.
Many posts with various views followed: Kirkman removed them all, and
sent me the following email:


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Gary,

The owner of C&G Tackle has a history of attacking me and spreading
rumors
and falsehoods designed expressly to harm RodMaker Magazine and
RodBuilding.org. He is free to do that, but I will not provide him
with
the means to do so. I spent much time promoting his former companies,
Clemens Tackle and RodCrafters and was repaid by his distasteful
conduct.

I will not go into this any further. I am the owner of
Rodbuilding.org
and
have 100% authority on what can, and cannot, be posted there. My
record
and work on behalf of the rod building industry is beyond reproach. I
will
not allow any group or individual to destroy what I have done on
behalf
of
the rod building craft.

It is also important that I protect and promote those companies who
have
been willing to foot the bill to provide what most builders feel is a
truly
excellent site. It isn't free - somebody has to pay for it and when
non-sponsors take an unfair advantage in promoting their products on a
board that others are paying for, I will put my foot down.


Sincerely,

Tom Kirkman"
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~

I find your email to be ambiguous hyperbole. I am not interested
in your personal life, nor the soap operas or the seeming vendettas
which may abound therein; however, i am interested
in giving all rodcrafters the best information i have.

In addition, i have no wish to post something you find so abhorrent
on your bulletin board.

As a newcomer to boards and newsgroups, (though i have
been building rods and teaching rodbuilding for over 20 yrs), i would
appreciate
all relevant responses to this situation. How far does one go to
censor a fifty cent
savings? One's sponsor would object?

Thank you in advance,

Sincerely,

bluestonerod

TOM KIRKMAN, RODBUILDING.ORG BB, MY DECEMBER 1,2003 POST, ETHICS
 

On 6 Dec 2003 17:00:48 -0800, (Bluestone) wrote:



As a newcomer to boards and newsgroups, (though i have
been building rods and teaching rodbuilding for over 20 yrs), i would
appreciate
all relevant responses to this situation. How far does one go to
censor a fifty cent
savings? One's sponsor would object?


Looks as if you accidentally stepped in something. Wipe it off your
shoe and go on with life. While the Web forum owner could have been
more tactful in his email to you, he's got the right to run his board
his way. You've got the right to use it or not use it.

Without his sponsors (or his own business, if his business is the
board sponsor) he might not be able to have a board forum going. He
may get additional incentives, too. Sounds as if he was quite
straightforward about that. It's all very serious business to the
manufacturers and retailers of products. In this case it also seems
as if there's a serious personal vendetta going on as well, which he
probably wasn't as straightforward about, but was quite angry about.
So instead of a gentle clue or two, you got a bit nearer the 'up aside
the head' response. I've seen lots worse if it's any consolation.
Lots worse.

By the way, it's regarded as very bad manners to directly quote email
on the 'Net. As you've stated that you're new to all this, it'll
probably pass this time as easily with others as it did with me, but
some dreadful flames can result. It's best to find a way to paraphrase
anything you get in private emails. You might want to subscribe to
news.announce.newusers. It'll help you on the 'Net, but the rules of
each forum on the Web that you might drop into can be completely
different. And go to Google and look up 'Nettiquette'. While it's
mostly a translation of good manners in any social setting to
electronic typing, there are a few oddities it helps to be aware of.
--

rbc:vixen,Minnow Goddess,Willow Watcher,and all that sort of thing.
Often taunted by trout.
Only a fool would refuse to believe in luck. Only a damn fool would rely on it.

http://www.visi.com/~cyli

TOM KIRKMAN, RODBUILDING.ORG BB, MY DECEMBER 1,2003 POST, ETHICS
 

Mr. Perez -

Anyone who knows anything about rod building knows that Tom K. is a
first class guy. He's provided so many things that we never had before
like a full size magazine and the very best internet rod building site
on the planet. His site is provided free for all of us to use and
enjoy and there's no other place that is as friendly or easy to use.
It's a class act all the way!

But there are some who try to take advantage of his generousity and
kindness. I guess you touched a nerve and he just had had enough. I
thought his response was a bit harsher than what you usually hear from
him but not out of line at all considering what some have tried to do
him and his board.

I think he was right to remove the post you made about the products of
a non sponsor and your own post was very harsh and uncalled for. That
sort of thing doesn't go down well on Tom's board and I'm glad he runs
a tight ship. I have a high regard for the many fine sponsors on his
board and he is right to protect them. After all they pay to provide
that board for all of us and we want it to stay just like it is.

You owe Tom an apology for posting a private email on a newsgroup. I
don't think he would do that to you but he is a professional.

John

TOM KIRKMAN, RODBUILDING.ORG BB, MY DECEMBER 1,2003 POST, ETHICS
 

John,

From your answer i can see you do not read the
as per sponsors pay more atten: when reading strings on the BB.

Its not a matter of agreement, its the point of free expression.
Thank you for yours.


Rodbuilders.org new motto:


~~~~~~~~ALL KNOWLEDGE WELCOME ON THIS BOARD EXCEPT FROM THOSE WITH
WHOM KIRKMAN HAS A PERSONAL VENDETTA~~~~~~~~~


Carry on.

bluestonerod

TOM KIRKMAN, RODBUILDING.ORG BB, MY DECEMBER 1,2003 POST, ETHICS
 

Mr. Perez:

I believe you have made some very bad assumptions about how internet
rod building forums operate.

Boards cost money and most rely on sponsors for funding. Now if a
non-sponsor can get advertising and promotion at no charge on those
boards, then those who are sponsors will stop paying a fee to be
sponsors. At that point, the money runs out and the board shuts down.

Tom Kirkman has the finest internet rod building board there is. He
has done us all a good deed to create this wonderful site where more
rod building information is exchanged than anywhere else. If his
sponsors get mad and leave, then the board will shut down and we will
lose the #1 rod building site on the internet.

Boards that are not moderated are hateful cesspools of arguments and
problems. Tom's board runs smooth as silk because he has set some
rules and is quick to enforce them. I applaud his sense of fairness
but realize he has to protect the interest of his sponsors. They pay
for the board and are entitled to preferential treatment.

There are also a small handful of troublemakers that he is right to
keep out. They have ruined other boards and no one wants a repeat of
that at rodbuilding.org.

I hope you will send Tom an apology. He's a super friendly guy and
I'm sure he'll be willing to overlook your mistake.

Best of luck to you.

Aurthur Mercer

TOM KIRKMAN, RODBUILDING.ORG BB, MY DECEMBER 1,2003 POST, ETHICS
 

TOM KIRKMAN, RODBUILDING.ORG BB, MY DECEMBER 1,2003 POST, ETHICS
 

"Bluestone" schrieb im Newsbeitrag
om...
John,

From your answer i can see you do not read the
as per sponsors pay more atten: when reading strings on the BB.

Its not a matter of agreement, its the point of free expression.
Thank you for yours.


Rodbuilders.org new motto:


~~~~~~~~ALL KNOWLEDGE WELCOME ON THIS BOARD EXCEPT FROM THOSE WITH
WHOM KIRKMAN HAS A PERSONAL VENDETTA~~~~~~~~~


Carry on.

bluestonerod

You can not expect free expression on a monitored board, or even on this
one. If you go beyond the limits of what somebody finds acceptable, and
they manage to contact and convince your ISP of the same, then not only do
you lose your "free expression", but also your access to usenet or the
internet.

It does not matter whether you are right or wrong. Except to you, and
perhaps a few others.

Publishing your annoyance, or attempting to gain some sort of revenge on the
purported pepetrator, on other boards, is also likely to prove extremely
contra.productive. Quite apart from getting some other people who are
basically not interested, annoyed at you. Believe me, it is really just a
waste of time and effort. Some things are as they are, one is obliged to
accept them, or at least is best served in doing so.

TL
MC

TOM KIRKMAN, RODBUILDING.ORG BB, MY DECEMBER 1,2003 POST, ETHICS
 

"Mike Connor" wrote...
"Bluestone" wrote...
John,

From your answer i can see you do not read the
as per sponsors pay more atten: when reading strings on the BB.

Its not a matter of agreement, its the point of free expression.
Thank you for yours.

Rodbuilders.org new motto:


~~~~~~~~ALL KNOWLEDGE WELCOME ON THIS BOARD EXCEPT FROM THOSE WITH
WHOM KIRKMAN HAS A PERSONAL VENDETTA~~~~~~~~~

Carry on.

bluestonerod

You can not expect free expression on a monitored board, or even on this
one. If you go beyond the limits of what somebody finds acceptable, and
they manage to contact and convince your ISP of the same, then not only do
you lose your "free expression", but also your access to usenet or the
internet.

It does not matter whether you are right or wrong. Except to you, and
perhaps a few others.

Publishing your annoyance, or attempting to gain some sort of revenge on the
purported pepetrator, on other boards, is also likely to prove extremely
contra.productive. Quite apart from getting some other people who are
basically not interested, annoyed at you. Believe me, it is really just a
waste of time and effort. Some things are as they are, one is obliged to
accept them, or at least is best served in doing so.

Seems as good a place as any to say "Welcome back, Mike." It's good to see you
posting again.
--
TL,
Tim
http://css.sbcma.com/timj

TOM KIRKMAN, RODBUILDING.ORG BB, MY DECEMBER 1,2003 POST, ETHICS
 

I'd like to thank you for your post on the 'Ethics' of this gentleman's
website...as you've just done some free advertising for what appears to be a
fine site run by an upstanding individual. I've been collecting information
to build my own rod and for whatever reason, had not yet run upon this fine
site. It appears to be exactly what I'm looking for -- a good site run by
someone who is fair and honest. I've bookmarked it for future reference and
won't be hesitant to pay an extra $0.50 for honesty and integrity.

Have a good day.


"Bluestone" wrote in message
om...
I found a good deal for rod support roller o-rings at C & G Tackle
Outlet, which are
selling for fifty cents ($.50) less than Renzetti's current price.
Renzetti is
'Kirkman's sponsor'; C & G Tackle Outlet can more than likely be
termed: 'less
than Kirkman's sponsor', as i have been summarily informed.

When i posted this information on rodbuilding.org, Kirkman removed my
post.
Many posts with various views followed: Kirkman removed them all, and
sent me the following email:


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Gary,

The owner of C&G Tackle has a history of attacking me and spreading
rumors
and falsehoods designed expressly to harm RodMaker Magazine and
RodBuilding.org. He is free to do that, but I will not provide him
with
the means to do so. I spent much time promoting his former companies,
Clemens Tackle and RodCrafters and was repaid by his distasteful
conduct.

I will not go into this any further. I am the owner of
Rodbuilding.org
and
have 100% authority on what can, and cannot, be posted there. My
record
and work on behalf of the rod building industry is beyond reproach. I
will
not allow any group or individual to destroy what I have done on
behalf
of
the rod building craft.

It is also important that I protect and promote those companies who
have
been willing to foot the bill to provide what most builders feel is a
truly
excellent site. It isn't free - somebody has to pay for it and when
non-sponsors take an unfair advantage in promoting their products on a
board that others are paying for, I will put my foot down.


Sincerely,

Tom Kirkman"
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~

I find your email to be ambiguous hyperbole. I am not interested
in your personal life, nor the soap operas or the seeming vendettas
which may abound therein; however, i am interested
in giving all rodcrafters the best information i have.

In addition, i have no wish to post something you find so abhorrent
on your bulletin board.

As a newcomer to boards and newsgroups, (though i have
been building rods and teaching rodbuilding for over 20 yrs), i would
appreciate
all relevant responses to this situation. How far does one go to
censor a fifty cent
savings? One's sponsor would object?

Thank you in advance,

Sincerely,

bluestonerod

TOM KIRKMAN, RODBUILDING.ORG BB, MY DECEMBER 1,2003 POST, ETHICS
 

"Tim J." schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:o2PAb.453726$HS4.3558261@attbi_s01...
SNIP
Seems as good a place as any to say "Welcome back, Mike." It's good to see
you
posting again.
--
TL,
Tim
http://css.sbcma.com/timj


Thank you. Surprising how one misses this place, and how soon one feels "at
home" again in it. Decidedly odd, and very mixed feelings involved. One does
indeed regard many of the people here as old friends. Even though I have
never met most of them, and never will.

I am in rather a quandary as it happens. Perhaps an identity crisis? Who am
I , what am I , why am I? I don´t really know. I have not been fishing for
quite a while, and the few times I did go, I was not particularly
enthusiastic. I have not even tied any flies, or built any tackle for a
long time. All my stuff lies unused and ignored in various places about the
house. Having spent nearly all my life passionately engaged in fishing, or
at least some aspect of it, this is a most unfortunate turn of events.
Mainly because there are no alternatives. I don´t really know much about
anything else, certainly not in the same way, nor was I ever much interested
in anything else. One can not turn the clock back, and I can not think of
any even remotely similar pastime which would be so absorbing anyway. It
would be most regrettable to lose interest altogether.

Nevertheless, it is good to talk about it again at least. I will just have
to wait and see what transpires. Perhaps my enthusiasm will return. Maybe I
am just getting old faster than I thought.

Behold the winding, dancing, sparkling stream,
ethereal, enchanting, as in some joyous youthful dream,
beheld, and then, the all consuming wish,
to carry home the stream´s elusive fish.

But dreams fade rapidly at last, like youth.
Advancing age, and weariness, reveal the truth,
all the battles, and the fish you caught,
mean nothing much, it was not fish you sought.

Peace, contentment, and a happy life,
free of troubles, sickness, and all other strife,
fishing may indeed these earthly woes transcend,
as angler makes his way around another river bend.

`Tis sad that one may not just simply fish one´s life away,
ignoring all the cares and problems, always bright and gay,
but life intrudes most rudely, and forces one´s attention,
sometimes overpowering, defying comprehension.

Dreams are scattered then, borne away on evil winds,
as humdrum life the once great hope and joy rescinds,
ambition dies, one sinks in mournful contemplation,
of how things were, of each and every revelation.

Knowledge gained, seems worthless on reflection,
one is enchained for hours and days by useless circumspection.
a rod, a box of flies, once source of magical enjoyment,
now sit ignored, unused, no point in their deployment.

"Hope springs eternal", or so ´tis often lightly said,
even when the wings of spirit, have feet of lead.
I will yet take my rod and flies to some bright stream again,
I know I will, all I do not know, is when?

TL
MC

TOM KIRKMAN, RODBUILDING.ORG BB, MY DECEMBER 1,2003 POST, ETHICS
 

TOM KIRKMAN, RODBUILDING.ORG BB, MY DECEMBER 1,2003 POST, ETHICS
 

On Sat, 6 Dec 2003, Bluestone wrote:

When i posted this information on rodbuilding.org, Kirkman removed my
post.
Many posts with various views followed: Kirkman removed them all, and
sent me the following email:

Where's Tony Germuga when you need him?

Mu

TOM KIRKMAN, RODBUILDING.ORG BB, MY DECEMBER 1,2003 POST, ETHICS
 

Mike Connor wrote:
[snipper]

Nevertheless, it is good to talk about it again at least. I will just have
to wait and see what transpires. Perhaps my enthusiasm will return. Maybe I
am just getting old faster than I thought.

Actually Mike, inasmuch as you are looking for a solution perhaps the
answer lies in the second and second last stanzas.


Behold the winding, dancing, sparkling stream,
ethereal, enchanting, as in some joyous youthful dream,
beheld, and then, the all consuming wish,
to carry home the stream´s elusive fish.

But dreams fade rapidly at last, like youth.
Advancing age, and weariness, reveal the truth,
all the battles, and the fish you caught,
mean nothing much, it was not fish you sought.

Peace, contentment, and a happy life,
free of troubles, sickness, and all other strife,
fishing may indeed these earthly woes transcend,
as angler makes his way around another river bend.

`Tis sad that one may not just simply fish one´s life away,
ignoring all the cares and problems, always bright and gay,
but life intrudes most rudely, and forces one´s attention,
sometimes overpowering, defying comprehension.

Dreams are scattered then, borne away on evil winds,
as humdrum life the once great hope and joy rescinds,
ambition dies, one sinks in mournful contemplation,
of how things were, of each and every revelation.

Knowledge gained, seems worthless on reflection,
one is enchained for hours and days by useless circumspection.
a rod, a box of flies, once source of magical enjoyment,
now sit ignored, unused, no point in their deployment.

"Hope springs eternal", or so ´tis often lightly said,
even when the wings of spirit, have feet of lead.
I will yet take my rod and flies to some bright stream again,
I know I will, all I do not know, is when?

TL
MC


You need someone to share the water with. That may even extend to
guidance but only informally. I find having someone rely on me
for their outing is very motivating.

Just a thought ...

Steve (who has known similar, albeit short, periods of quietude)

TOM KIRKMAN, RODBUILDING.ORG BB, MY DECEMBER 1,2003 POST, ETHICS
 

Stephen Welsh wrote:
...
You need someone to share the water with. That may even extend to
guidance but only informally. I find having someone rely on me
for their outing is very motivating.

Just a thought ...

I'm just the opposite. Whenever I've been disinterested in fishing
it's been because of (real or perceived) social obligations.

The cure has always been to disappear somewhere far, far into the
backcountry, just me and the hound dog, to reconnect with why I
go fishing in the first place. I'm not anti-social, well ... not
completely, but I fish alone most of the time.

--
Ken Fortenberry

TOM KIRKMAN, RODBUILDING.ORG BB, MY DECEMBER 1,2003 POST, ETHICS
 

"Stephen Welsh" schrieb im Newsbeitrag
...
Mike Connor wrote:
[snipper]
Actually Mike, inasmuch as you are looking for a solution perhaps the
answer lies in the second and second last stanzas.

You need someone to share the water with. That may even extend to
guidance but only informally. I find having someone rely on me
for their outing is very motivating.

Just a thought ...

Steve (who has known similar, albeit short, periods of quietude)


Quietude is not my problem, it is more desuetude.

I had someone to "share the water". Now I have not.

In actual fact, I invariably prefer to fish alone anyway. Although I have
taken a great many people fishing over the years, not to mention various
instruction.

I am not looking for a solution, I don´t know where to look, I am hoping
that one will occur.

TL
MC

TOM KIRKMAN, RODBUILDING.ORG BB, MY DECEMBER 1,2003 POST, ETHICS
 

Mike:

Nice to see that you are back... and as poetic as ever. Sorry to detect a
bit of melancholy in this one. Hope that it passes quickly for you, and you
again find pleasure in things once held dear.

Jim Ray

--
email SPAM countermeasures require removal of allnails to reply
"Mike Connor" Mike-Connor wrote in message
s.com...

"Tim J." schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:o2PAb.453726$HS4.3558261@attbi_s01...
SNIP
Seems as good a place as any to say "Welcome back, Mike." It's good to
see
you
posting again.
--
TL,
Tim
http://css.sbcma.com/timj


Thank you. Surprising how one misses this place, and how soon one feels
"at
home" again in it. Decidedly odd, and very mixed feelings involved. One
does
indeed regard many of the people here as old friends. Even though I have
never met most of them, and never will.

I am in rather a quandary as it happens. Perhaps an identity crisis? Who
am
I , what am I , why am I? I don´t really know. I have not been fishing
for
quite a while, and the few times I did go, I was not particularly
enthusiastic. I have not even tied any flies, or built any tackle for a
long time. All my stuff lies unused and ignored in various places about
the
house. Having spent nearly all my life passionately engaged in fishing,
or
at least some aspect of it, this is a most unfortunate turn of events.
Mainly because there are no alternatives. I don´t really know much about
anything else, certainly not in the same way, nor was I ever much
interested
in anything else. One can not turn the clock back, and I can not think of
any even remotely similar pastime which would be so absorbing anyway. It
would be most regrettable to lose interest altogether.

Nevertheless, it is good to talk about it again at least. I will just have
to wait and see what transpires. Perhaps my enthusiasm will return. Maybe
I
am just getting old faster than I thought.

Behold the winding, dancing, sparkling stream,
ethereal, enchanting, as in some joyous youthful dream,
beheld, and then, the all consuming wish,
to carry home the stream´s elusive fish.

But dreams fade rapidly at last, like youth.
Advancing age, and weariness, reveal the truth,
all the battles, and the fish you caught,
mean nothing much, it was not fish you sought.

Peace, contentment, and a happy life,
free of troubles, sickness, and all other strife,
fishing may indeed these earthly woes transcend,
as angler makes his way around another river bend.

`Tis sad that one may not just simply fish one´s life away,
ignoring all the cares and problems, always bright and gay,
but life intrudes most rudely, and forces one´s attention,
sometimes overpowering, defying comprehension.

Dreams are scattered then, borne away on evil winds,
as humdrum life the once great hope and joy rescinds,
ambition dies, one sinks in mournful contemplation,
of how things were, of each and every revelation.

Knowledge gained, seems worthless on reflection,
one is enchained for hours and days by useless circumspection.
a rod, a box of flies, once source of magical enjoyment,
now sit ignored, unused, no point in their deployment.

"Hope springs eternal", or so ´tis often lightly said,
even when the wings of spirit, have feet of lead.
I will yet take my rod and flies to some bright stream again,
I know I will, all I do not know, is when?

TL
MC

TOM KIRKMAN, RODBUILDING.ORG BB, MY DECEMBER 1,2003 POST, ETHICS
 

Mike Connor wrote:


Quietude is not my problem, it is more desuetude.

I had someone to "share the water". Now I have not.

In actual fact, I invariably prefer to fish alone anyway. Although I have
taken a great many people fishing over the years, not to mention various
instruction.

I am not looking for a solution, I don´t know where to look, I am hoping
that one will occur.

TL
MC


All in good time, I guess.


Steve (...after scrabbling for the dictionary ;-)

TOM KIRKMAN, RODBUILDING.ORG BB, MY DECEMBER 1,2003 POST, ETHICS
 

Ken Fortenberry wrote:


I'm just the opposite. Whenever I've been disinterested in fishing
it's been because of (real or perceived) social obligations.

The cure has always been to disappear somewhere far, far into the
backcountry, just me and the hound dog, to reconnect with why I
go fishing in the first place. I'm not anti-social, well ... not
completely, but I fish alone most of the time.


I used to always fish alone preferring my own company but in the last
couple of seasons I have generally preferred to share the experience.
I must admit to a solo session last week that was most pleasant mainly
because it was new water at my pace. Last evening it gave me great
pleasure to introduce a friend to that same water.

I definately know its time to get out when the SO asks "when are you
going next?" ... translated: "get the hell out of here and go enjoy
yourself".



Steve

TOM KIRKMAN, RODBUILDING.ORG BB, MY DECEMBER 1,2003 POST, ETHICS
 

"Stephen Welsh" schrieb im Newsbeitrag
...
Steve (...after scrabbling for the dictionary ;-)



Careful there! You can hurt yourself doing that! Ask OP!

TL
MC

TOM KIRKMAN, RODBUILDING.ORG BB, MY DECEMBER 1,2003 POST, ETHICS
 

First, let me say, I've know Tom Kirkman longer than anybody on this board.
He and I went to high school together and his sister Lisa and I graduated
together. Tom was a year behind us. I've subscribed to his magazine and I've
purchased stuff from his old shop in High Point. He knows his stuff, he
shares the info he knows freely and openly, and he tries to do right by both
old experienced rod builders and newbies.

As to his removing your post, he states explicitly that "Only board
sponsors are permitted and encouraged to promote and advertise products on
the board." It is one of the first things you see when going to the
homepage. That said, you have no grounds for complaining that he removed
your post. If you don't like that, don't read the magazine, don't buy from
the sponsors, and confine your business to C&G Tackle Outlet.

-John


"Bluestone" wrote in message
om...
I found a good deal for rod support roller o-rings at C & G Tackle
Outlet, which are
selling for fifty cents ($.50) less than Renzetti's current price.
Renzetti is
'Kirkman's sponsor'; C & G Tackle Outlet can more than likely be
termed: 'less
than Kirkman's sponsor', as i have been summarily informed.

When i posted this information on rodbuilding.org, Kirkman removed my
post.
Many posts with various views followed: Kirkman removed them all, and
sent me the following email:


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Gary,

The owner of C&G Tackle has a history of attacking me and spreading
rumors
and falsehoods designed expressly to harm RodMaker Magazine and
RodBuilding.org. He is free to do that, but I will not provide him
with
the means to do so. I spent much time promoting his former companies,
Clemens Tackle and RodCrafters and was repaid by his distasteful
conduct.

I will not go into this any further. I am the owner of
Rodbuilding.org
and
have 100% authority on what can, and cannot, be posted there. My
record
and work on behalf of the rod building industry is beyond reproach. I
will
not allow any group or individual to destroy what I have done on
behalf
of
the rod building craft.

It is also important that I protect and promote those companies who
have
been willing to foot the bill to provide what most builders feel is a
truly
excellent site. It isn't free - somebody has to pay for it and when
non-sponsors take an unfair advantage in promoting their products on a
board that others are paying for, I will put my foot down.


Sincerely,

Tom Kirkman"
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~

I find your email to be ambiguous hyperbole. I am not interested
in your personal life, nor the soap operas or the seeming vendettas
which may abound therein; however, i am interested
in giving all rodcrafters the best information i have.

In addition, i have no wish to post something you find so abhorrent
on your bulletin board.

As a newcomer to boards and newsgroups, (though i have
been building rods and teaching rodbuilding for over 20 yrs), i would
appreciate
all relevant responses to this situation. How far does one go to
censor a fifty cent
savings? One's sponsor would object?

Thank you in advance,

Sincerely,

bluestonerod

TOM KIRKMAN, RODBUILDING.ORG BB, MY DECEMBER 1,2003 POST, ETHICS
 

"Jim Ray" schrieb im Newsbeitrag
.com...
Mike:

Nice to see that you are back... and as poetic as ever. Sorry to detect a
bit of melancholy in this one. Hope that it passes quickly for you, and
you
again find pleasure in things once held dear.

Jim Ray

Thanks. There is a bit of melancholy in everything I suppose.

TL
MC

TOM KIRKMAN, RODBUILDING.ORG BB, MY DECEMBER 1,2003 POST, ETHICS
 

We are forgetting one very important fact , WE THE ROD BUILDERS GIVE
BUSINESS TO THE ROD COMPONENT COMPANIES( SPONSORS IN THIS CASE ).
But the original post is not about sponsors, as they are doing a
splendid job,
its about keeping knowledge from the Rod Crafter because of a
vendetta.
No one said Rod Maker magazine is a bad magazine. No one said
rodbuilding.org
is a bad board. No one said Tom kirkman is a bad person, all that was
said is a certain information was kept out cause
a vendetta between Tom Kirkman and Dick French (broken down).
rodbuilding.org is for the Rod Crafter to advance her or him, when
vital knowledge is kept out we all suffer. rodbilding.org is a public
site.
Tom Kirkman owns said site and gets paid by the sponsors to advertise
but no sponsors would take down a better deal and if any disagree
stand now and be heard.
WHEN ANYONE KEEPS KNOWLEDGE FROM BEING HEARD BY THE ROD CRAFTER
ESPECIALLY
ON SUCH A SITE THEN ITS WRONG.THIS DOESN'T MEAN TOM KIRKMAN IS A BAD
PERSON AS MANY HAVE TRIED TO INFORM ME IN EMAIL, BUT ONLY THAT THE ACT
IS WRONG.

Many talk about only sponsors are able to advertise, this is not
correct.
I have read many old and new post and seen many write urls or emails
about companies that are not sponsors.

AGAIN WHAT WE HAVE HERE IS A VENDETTA.


Happy Holidays

Sincerely
bluestonerod

TOM KIRKMAN, RODBUILDING.ORG BB, MY DECEMBER 1,2003 POST, ETHICS
 

In article ,
foamed at the mouth...

AGAIN WHAT WE HAVE HERE IS A VENDETTA.


And so what's the BFD? We got so many vendettas on ROFF that
you can't hardly make a cast without snagging one of the sumbitches
on your backcast. We _like_ vendettas around here. When we see
a little baby grudge hatching, we protect it and nurse it along
until it grows into a full grown adult vendetta. We got so many
that we export our surplus to Sicily.

Kevin

TOM KIRKMAN, RODBUILDING.ORG BB, MY DECEMBER 1,2003 POST, ETHICS
 

"Kevin Vang" wrote in message
...
In article ,
foamed at the mouth...

AGAIN WHAT WE HAVE HERE IS A VENDETTA.


And so what's the BFD? We got so many vendettas on ROFF that
you can't hardly make a cast without snagging one of the sumbitches
on your backcast. We _like_ vendettas around here. When we see
a little baby grudge hatching, we protect it and nurse it along
until it grows into a full grown adult vendetta. We got so many
that we export our surplus to Sicily.

SPLORK!
--
TL,
Tim
------------------------
http://css.sbcma.com/timj

TOM KIRKMAN, RODBUILDING.ORG BB, MY DECEMBER 1,2003 POST, ETHICS
 

TOM KIRKMAN, RODBUILDING.ORG BB, MY DECEMBER 1,2003 POST, ETHICS
 

There is more to the story that what "Mr. Perez" is telling. Tom
makes everyone post a valid email address so Mr. Perez could have
easily sent a personal email to anyone asking for the information he
said he was providing. But the thing is that no one was asking for
it. Mr. Perez simply came on the board with the express purpose of
advertising for a non sponsor!!! That's why it was pulled down and it
should have been.

I think the tables need to be turned and Mr. Perez should be more
honest about his motives and who he was working on behalf of. He had
been incontact with the sponsor he was advertising for. Was he asked
to do this or did he do it on his own accord? I don't know but I do
know that the rules on the board plainly state that it is not allowed.

TOM KIRKMAN, RODBUILDING.ORG BB, MY DECEMBER 1,2003 POST, ETHICS
 

Gingercatz wrote:

There is more to the story that what "Mr. Perez" is telling. ...

I'm gonna have to ask for some help with my scorecard here. This
"Mr. Perez", is he Bluestone aka bluestonerod ? And you, are you
Tom, or Mr. Howell, or the Skipper or Gilligan ?

In short, WHO IN THE HELL ARE ALL YOU MORONIC WHINY ASSHOLES and
why do you think we give a good goddamn about an obscure magazine
and an even more obscure tightassed bulletin board ?

Kindly take your puerile and petty little drama somewhere where
someone actually gives a ****.

Try alt.anonymous.whiners.with.stupid.screen.names

HTH

--
Ken Fortenberry

TOM KIRKMAN, RODBUILDING.ORG BB, MY DECEMBER 1,2003 POST, ETHICS
 

"Ken Fortenberry" wrote in message
y.com...
Gingercatz wrote:

There is more to the story that what "Mr. Perez" is telling. ...

I'm gonna have to ask for some help with my scorecard here. This
"Mr. Perez", is he Bluestone aka bluestonerod ? And you, are you
Tom, or Mr. Howell, or the Skipper or Gilligan ?

In short, WHO IN THE HELL ARE ALL YOU MORONIC WHINY ASSHOLES and
why do you think we give a good goddamn about an obscure magazine
and an even more obscure tightassed bulletin board ?

Kindly take your puerile and petty little drama somewhere where
someone actually gives a ****.

Try alt.anonymous.whiners.with.stupid.screen.names

Here, here! All I've been able to gather from this discourse is that SOMEONE
runs a moderated bulletin board and SOMEONE ELSE is ****ed because he moderated
it. Go figure.

And where's cyli? Isn't this her job? Or were elections held in my absence?
--
TL,
Tim
------------------------
http://css.sbcma.com/timj

TOM KIRKMAN, RODBUILDING.ORG BB, MY DECEMBER 1,2003 POST, ETHICS
 

"Ken Fortenberry" wrote in message
y.com...
Gingercatz wrote:

There is more to the story that what "Mr. Perez" is telling. ...

I'm gonna have to ask for some help with my scorecard here. This
"Mr. Perez", is he Bluestone aka bluestonerod ? And you, are you
Tom, or Mr. Howell, or the Skipper or Gilligan ?

In short, WHO IN THE HELL ARE ALL YOU MORONIC WHINY ASSHOLES and
why do you think we give a good goddamn about an obscure magazine
and an even more obscure tightassed bulletin board ?

Kindly take your puerile and petty little drama somewhere where
someone actually gives a ****.

Try alt.anonymous.whiners.with.stupid.screen.names

HTH

--
Ken Fortenberry

Oh, I don't know about all that. Seems to me it's that perspective thingy
again. I mean, yeah, if you work from the assumption that this is all being
done for our entertainment, then yes, it is a bit of a petty irritation. On
the other hand, if you assume that these halfwits are serious......not as
preposterous a proposition as it may first seem.......then it all becomes
vastly amusing. Um......think Snedeker with a vocabulary and a balanced
medication regimen. :)

Wolfgang

TOM KIRKMAN, RODBUILDING.ORG BB, MY DECEMBER 1,2003 POST, ETHICS
 

Wolfgang wrote:

... Seems to me it's that perspective thingy
again. I mean, yeah, if you work from the assumption that this is all being
done for our entertainment, then yes, it is a bit of a petty irritation. On
the other hand, if you assume that these halfwits are serious......not as
preposterous a proposition as it may first seem.......then it all becomes
vastly amusing. Um......think Snedeker with a vocabulary and a balanced
medication regimen. :)

One takes amusement where one finds it I guess, but a couple of weeks of
this silliness grows wearisome and I LIKE baiting the halfwits. I'm STILL
****ed at 'tripper for running off Mr. Magazine before his entertainment
value had expired.

BTW, if you ever have the opportunity to meet Dave Snedeker you two will
get along famously. Beneath that exterior of a wry, uncompromising,
scattergun sense of outrage lies an intelligent and humorous fishing buddy
with a wry, uncompromising, scattergun sense of outrage. ;-)

--
Ken Fortenberry

TOM KIRKMAN, RODBUILDING.ORG BB, MY DECEMBER 1,2003 POST, ETHICS
 

"Ken Fortenberry" wrote in message
y.com...


One takes amusement where one finds it I guess, but a couple of weeks of
this silliness grows wearisome

Different strokes......I find it endlessly entertaining.

and I LIKE baiting the halfwits.

But of course. I can find no fault with that policy......and no one would
believe me if I said I did. :)

I'm STILL
****ed at 'tripper for running off Mr. Magazine before his entertainment
value had expired.

Oh, he's still reading. And I'd have bet a shiny new nickel that he'd be
back......but I think you probably just tipped him off. Bad you!

BTW, if you ever have the opportunity to meet Dave Snedeker you two will
get along famously. Beneath that exterior of a wry, uncompromising,
scattergun sense of outrage lies an intelligent and humorous fishing buddy
with a wry, uncompromising, scattergun sense of outrage. ;-)

Sad, but probably true. Many a mutually rewarding relationship has been
utterly ruined by face to face encounter. :(

Wolfgang

TOM KIRKMAN, RODBUILDING.ORG BB, MY DECEMBER 1,2003 POST, ETHICS
 

Wolfgang wrote:


But of course. I can find no fault with that policy......and no one would
believe me if I said I did. :)

Perhaps the understatement of the year.

Russell

TOM KIRKMAN, RODBUILDING.ORG BB, MY DECEMBER 1,2003 POST, ETHICS
 

Kevin Vang wrote in message . ..
In article ,
foamed at the mouth...

AGAIN WHAT WE HAVE HERE IS A VENDETTA.


And so what's the BFD?

~~~~Thank you, Kevin, for agreeing there is a vendetta.

TOM KIRKMAN, RODBUILDING.ORG BB, MY DECEMBER 1,2003 POST, ETHICS
 

"Bluestone" wrote in message
om...
Kevin Vang wrote in message
. ..
In article ,
foamed at the mouth...

AGAIN WHAT WE HAVE HERE IS A VENDETTA.


And so what's the BFD?

~~~~Thank you, Kevin, for agreeing there is a vendetta.

Not to put too fine a point on it ole Blue, but I believe you missed the
point. See, them scumbag scaramouches in Sicily ain't never paid us a dime.
That **** don't fly here......one'a these days, there WILL be a reckoning.
:(

Wolfgang
hey, they want a war?......we'll give 'em a war.

TOM KIRKMAN, RODBUILDING.ORG BB, MY DECEMBER 1,2003 POST, ETHICS
 

"Bluestone" schrieb im Newsbeitrag
om...

AGAIN WHAT WE HAVE HERE IS A VENDETTA.

Vendetta = Noun = A feud in which members of the opposing parties murder
each other.

What you have, is a one sided ****ing contest, and you are losing.

MC

TOM KIRKMAN, RODBUILDING.ORG BB, MY DECEMBER 1,2003 POST, ETHICS
 

Rodbuilding.org is not a public site. Somebody owns the name. Somebody
pays to have the site hosted, Somebody puts the time into keeping it
running. That person has signed no contract guaranteeing you any
services. That site owes you nothing.

~~~~The site owes the Rod Builder the chance to share within each
other,
that is why it was put there to begin with! public, "REALLY SOMEONE
OWNS IT"
My email isn't public and i do not own it, rodbuilding.org is for the
public Rod Builder, one doesn't need a password.


Tom Kirkman owns said site and gets paid by the sponsors to advertise
but no sponsors would take down a better deal and if any disagree
stand now and be heard.
WHEN ANYONE KEEPS KNOWLEDGE FROM BEING HEARD BY THE ROD CRAFTER
ESPECIALLY
ON SUCH A SITE THEN ITS WRONG.THIS DOESN'T MEAN TOM KIRKMAN IS A BAD
PERSON AS MANY HAVE TRIED TO INFORM ME IN EMAIL, BUT ONLY THAT THE ACT
IS WRONG.

Actually, it sounds like this Tom guy has a beef with someone, serious
enough to remove references to some group or company from his board, and
he's too much of a gentleman to publicly say what it is.

~~~~scroll, email, email, email i'm the public.




I have read many old and new post and seen many write urls or emails
about companies that are not sponsors.

AGAIN WHAT WE HAVE HERE IS A VENDETTA.

----------And the site owner is entitled to his vendetta.

~~~~Not when it interferes with the reason for the site.
Then is just a joke.


Sincerely
bluestonerod

TOM KIRKMAN, RODBUILDING.ORG BB, MY DECEMBER 1,2003 POST, ETHICS
 

"Bluestone" schrieb im Newsbeitrag
om...
SNIP
~~~~scroll, email, email, email i'm the public.
SNIP

You are not the public, you are an angry individual, who is losing a one
sided ****ing contest, and refusing to accept it.

This is a public newsgroup, but nobody here owes you anything at all. In
the meantime, quite a lot of people merely think you are being extremely
silly.

Doubtless realisation will eventually dawn.

Lastly, it does not matter what you think, as there is quite obviously not a
thing you can do about it.

MC

TOM KIRKMAN, RODBUILDING.ORG BB, MY DECEMBER 1,2003 POST, ETHICS
 

Bluestone wrote:
...
AGAIN WHAT WE HAVE HERE IS A VENDETTA.

So, go start your own bulletin board, register the domain name,
(rodcrafter.org is for sale), line up some sponsors to pay for the
whole thing, or do it out of your own pocket, and have yourself
your own vendetta.

And I promise when some clueless nitwit comes to roff making a
complete ass of himself complaining about your vendetta, I will
tell him to go start his own bulletin board and have himself his
own vendetta.

--
Ken Fortenberry

TOM KIRKMAN, RODBUILDING.ORG BB, MY DECEMBER 1,2003 POST, ETHICS
 

"Bluestone" wrote in message
om...

~~~~The site owes the Rod Builder the chance to share within each
other,
that is why it was put there to begin with! public, "REALLY SOMEONE
OWNS IT"
My email isn't public and i do not own it, rodbuilding.org is for the
public Rod Builder, one doesn't need a password.


Tom Kirkman owns said site and gets paid by the sponsors to advertise
but no sponsors would take down a better deal and if any disagree
stand now and be heard.
WHEN ANYONE KEEPS KNOWLEDGE FROM BEING HEARD BY THE ROD CRAFTER
ESPECIALLY
ON SUCH A SITE THEN ITS WRONG.THIS DOESN'T MEAN TOM KIRKMAN IS A BAD
PERSON AS MANY HAVE TRIED TO INFORM ME IN EMAIL, BUT ONLY THAT THE ACT
IS WRONG.

Actually, it sounds like this Tom guy has a beef with someone, serious
enough to remove references to some group or company from his board, and
he's too much of a gentleman to publicly say what it is.

~~~~scroll, email, email, email i'm the public.




I have read many old and new post and seen many write urls or emails
about companies that are not sponsors.

AGAIN WHAT WE HAVE HERE IS A VENDETTA.

----------And the site owner is entitled to his vendetta.

~~~~Not when it interferes with the reason for the site.
Then is just a joke.


Sincerely
bluestonerod

I am an inveterate reader. Some, among those who know me well, go so far as
to say a compulsive, or obsessive reader. There are very few things that I
have not read something about. There are very few questions that I have not
seen addressed at one time or another, however well or poorly. And yet,
there is one nagging question that I have never seen, or heard, anyone deal
with. I have always wondered.....do people who are severely brain damaged
know that they are .......well, severely brain damaged?


Well?


Wolfgang

TOM KIRKMAN, RODBUILDING.ORG BB, MY DECEMBER 1,2003 POST, ETHICS
 

My last entry didn't work so I'll try again.

It would appear there is more than this that Mr. Perez is telling. It
seems that Tom Kirkman and Dick French both own rod building
magazines. Tom has Rodmaker Magazine and Dick has something called
Rodcrafter Journal So a few years back Dick French who I think is the
guy operating C&G had published or stated false circulation figures
for Tom's magazine. You would assume this was done in order to harm
the other publication and maybe drive advetisers away. So it then
appears that Tom had to take legal action to get Dick to print a
retraction and say he was wrong.

Since then Tom did allow Dick on his board at rodbuilding.org as a
sponsor but Dick kept badmouthing Tom and his magazine and so finally
Tom got fed up and kicked him off. So now Dick sends people in to
advertise for him. They get removed and you get people like Mr.Perez
upset and trying to do more harm to Tom.

I'm not taking sides here and no one likes to read others dirty
laundry but there is more to this story than Mr. Perez is telling. Tom
seems like he went out of his way to accomodate somebody who was
trying to do harm to his business and just finally said enough is
enough. Plus he does have rules there on his board that were violated.
What's the beef???

John