Wind power effects... for Wolfgang
 

Nice to see you back Wolgang. Hope you are well.

I recall you have an interest in wind power. I though you might be
interested in the following link that describes one off-target effect on
bats.


http://dsc.discovery.com/news/2008/0...bine-bats.html

Tim Lysyk

Wind power effects... for Wolfgang
 

"Tim Lysyk" wrote in message
news:fr2tk.10141$%b7.1293@edtnps82...

Nice to see you back Wolgang. Hope you are well.

Thanks Tim, doing as well as can be expected, I guess, for one in robust
good health and possessed of sufficient resources to pursue a few at a time
of a host of varied interests......time being the limiting reagent. I hope
you can say the same, or better.

I recall you have an interest in wind power. I though you might be
interested in the following link that describes one off-target effect on
bats.


http://dsc.discovery.com/news/2008/0...bine-bats.html

This is very interesting. A few months ago I spent the better part of a day
talking to a DNR naturalist at the Horicon Marsh state wildlife refuge in
southeastern Wisconsin, who expressed a concern about the effects of a
proposed wind farm on the local bat population. Evidently there is a
substantial population that roosts through the winter in a nearby cave. As
he didn't say anything specific about what the machines might do to bats, I
assumed he was simply concerned about collisions. I was skeptical about
bats being unable to avoid the vanes under any conditions. The wind farm,
which covers a large area to the east and northeast of the marsh, is now
fully operational and I have not yet heard anything about the expected
casualties among birds and bats. However, I am aware, largely due to
monitoring a birding oriented listserve, of studies (both planned and
currently underway) using volunteers to make routine checks under the
turbines. The problem detailed in the story linked to above sounds highly
plausible and I'll be watching the studies I mentioned closely to see what
the results are.

Thanks for the heads up.

Wolfgang

Wind power effects... for Wolfgang
 

Wolfgang wrote:

"Tim Lysyk" wrote in message
news:fr2tk.10141$%b7.1293@edtnps82...


Nice to see you back Wolgang. Hope you are well.


Thanks Tim, doing as well as can be expected, I guess, for one in robust
good health and possessed of sufficient resources to pursue a few at a time
of a host of varied interests......time being the limiting reagent. I hope
you can say the same, or better.


I recall you have an interest in wind power. I though you might be
interested in the following link that describes one off-target effect on
bats.


http://dsc.discovery.com/news/2008/0...bine-bats.html


This is very interesting. A few months ago I spent the better part of a day
talking to a DNR naturalist at the Horicon Marsh state wildlife refuge in
southeastern Wisconsin, who expressed a concern about the effects of a
proposed wind farm on the local bat population. Evidently there is a
substantial population that roosts through the winter in a nearby cave. As
he didn't say anything specific about what the machines might do to bats, I
assumed he was simply concerned about collisions. I was skeptical about
bats being unable to avoid the vanes under any conditions. The wind farm,
which covers a large area to the east and northeast of the marsh, is now
fully operational and I have not yet heard anything about the expected
casualties among birds and bats. However, I am aware, largely due to
monitoring a birding oriented listserve, of studies (both planned and
currently underway) using volunteers to make routine checks under the
turbines. The problem detailed in the story linked to above sounds highly
plausible and I'll be watching the studies I mentioned closely to see what
the results are.

Thanks for the heads up.

Wolfgang



bat and bird impact statements are usually required as part of the
regulatory approval process for wind farms. i'll be interested in your
report and opinion of the experience up there. the wind farm i saw in
wyoming this summer was visually appealing on the windy plains and hills
in unitas county. while i have no doubt there are and will be bat
casualties, i doubt it will be of sufficient significance in most of the
areas wind farms will be located.

jeff

Wind power effects... for Wolfgang
 

bat and bird impact statements are usually required as part of the
regulatory approval process for wind farms. i'll be interested in your
report and opinion of the experience up there. *the wind farm i saw in
wyoming this summer was visually appealing on the windy plains and hills
in unitas county. *while i have no doubt there are and will be bat
casualties, i doubt it will be of sufficient significance in most of the
areas wind farms will be located.

On a much smaller scale, the Dutch have done some tremendous work in
area of urban wind power. They have a helix type that mounts on
buildings and homes, generates 1.8 to 7.9 KW (depending on model) that
is quieter than a home air conditioner. I don't know anything about
the sonic levels driving bats nuts, but because of the shape, it
appears solid to birds and bats, reducing the chance of bird strike.
There are even areas in South America where they are mounting these on
cell phone towers to power the systems.
http://www.helixwind.com/en/index.php
Frank Reid
(who would dearly love one of these)

Wind power effects... for Wolfgang
 

On Aug 28, 8:45*am, jeff miller wrote:
Wolfgang wrote:
"Tim Lysyk" wrote in message
news:fr2tk.10141$%b7.1293@edtnps82...

Nice to see you back Wolgang. Hope you are well.

Thanks Tim, doing as well as can be expected, I guess, for one in robust
good health and possessed of sufficient resources to pursue a few at a time
of a host of varied interests......time being the limiting reagent. *I hope
you can say the same, or better.

I recall you have an interest in wind power. I though you might be
interested in the following link that describes one off-target effect on
bats.

http://dsc.discovery.com/news/2008/0...bine-bats.html

This is very interesting. *A few months ago I spent the better part of a day
talking to a DNR naturalist at the Horicon Marsh state wildlife refuge in
southeastern Wisconsin, who expressed a concern about the effects of a
proposed wind farm on the local bat population. *Evidently there is a
substantial population that roosts through the winter in a nearby cave. *As
he didn't say anything specific about what the machines might do to bats, I
assumed he was simply concerned about collisions. *I was skeptical about
bats being unable to avoid the vanes under any conditions. *The wind farm,
which covers a large area to the east and northeast of the marsh, is now
fully operational and I have not yet heard anything about the expected
casualties among birds and bats. *However, I am aware, largely due to
monitoring a birding oriented listserve, of studies (both planned and
currently underway) using volunteers to make routine checks under the
turbines. *The problem detailed in the story linked to above sounds highly
plausible and I'll be watching the studies I mentioned closely to see what
the results are.

Thanks for the heads up.

Wolfgang

bat and bird impact statements are usually required as part of the
regulatory approval process for wind farms. i'll be interested in your
report and opinion of the experience up there. *the wind farm i saw in
wyoming this summer was visually appealing on the windy plains and hills
in unitas county. *while i have no doubt there are and will be bat
casualties, i doubt it will be of sufficient significance in most of the
areas wind farms will be located.

jeff- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I attended a conference a couple of years ago on windfarms. One thing
I remember is that cats kill 80 times more birds than windmills,
buildings with windows somewhere around 40 times.
Killing raptors was a problem as they sometimes fly backward relative
to the ground.and "back" in the blades.

Wind power effects... for Wolfgang
 

On Thu, 28 Aug 2008 08:19:25 -0700 (PDT),
=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Frank_Reid_=A9_2008?= wrote:

On a much smaller scale, the Dutch have done some tremendous work in
area of urban wind power. They have a helix type that mounts on
buildings and homes, generates 1.8 to 7.9 KW (depending on model) that
is quieter than a home air conditioner. I don't know anything about
the sonic levels driving bats nuts, but because of the shape, it
appears solid to birds and bats, reducing the chance of bird strike.
There are even areas in South America where they are mounting these on
cell phone towers to power the systems.
http://www.helixwind.com/en/index.php
Frank Reid
(who would dearly love one of these)

Ah lucky you.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9UPe6A_UVPc
Lots of durability items to overcome but it looks like fun.
If'n we had a bit of wind here this would be a candidate for my next
failed energy project.

Kiyu

Wind power effects... for Wolfgang
 

"Kiyu" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 28 Aug 2008 08:19:25 -0700 (PDT),
=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Frank_Reid_=A9_2008?= wrote:

On a much smaller scale, the Dutch have done some tremendous work in
area of urban wind power. They have a helix type that mounts on
buildings and homes, generates 1.8 to 7.9 KW (depending on model) that
is quieter than a home air conditioner. I don't know anything about
the sonic levels driving bats nuts, but because of the shape, it
appears solid to birds and bats, reducing the chance of bird strike.
There are even areas in South America where they are mounting these on
cell phone towers to power the systems.
http://www.helixwind.com/en/index.php
Frank Reid
(who would dearly love one of these)

Ah lucky you.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9UPe6A_UVPc
Lots of durability items to overcome but it looks like fun.
If'n we had a bit of wind here this would be a candidate for my next
failed energy project.

Kiyu

That's pretty neat, though I'm not sure how practical it is. Kinda noisy
too, it seemed. However, it might be just the thing I need for my planned
huntin' cabin on my uncle's mountain property.

As far as videos go I like this one just a bit better. It's short and to the
point.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g45KtHN37bo

Op

Wind power effects... for Wolfgang
 

In article ,
says...

Ah lucky you.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9UPe6A_UVPc
Lots of durability items to overcome but it looks like fun.

Speaking of durability issues:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CqEccgR0q-o

K
--
Kevin Vang
reply to kevin dot vang at minotstateu dot edu

Wind power effects... for Wolfgang
 

On Thu, 28 Aug 2008 21:33:19 -0400, "Opus--Mark H. Bowen"
wrote:

Ah lucky you.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9UPe6A_UVPc
Lots of durability items to overcome but it looks like fun.
If'n we had a bit of wind here this would be a candidate for my next
failed energy project.

Kiyu

That's pretty neat, though I'm not sure how practical it is. Kinda noisy
too, it seemed. However, it might be just the thing I need for my planned
huntin' cabin on my uncle's mountain property.
Mark,
Projects like this to me are mostly for fun (and to prevent brain rot)
but a lot can be learned from them and this fellow demonstrated how to
get the into wind power on a shoestring. Of course most of us don't
have CNC capabilities in our basements and perhaps a pulley & belt
driving the alternator from the 87 Olds out back might suit the
tinkerer better.

If you decide to do any solar or wind projects for your cabin this
site is the best home energy site I've ever found and if you have any
interest at all in such stuff it can keep you occupied for many, many
hours.
http://www.builditsolar.com/
When I experimented with a solar panel some years ago the fellow who
runs it was very helpful.

Kiyu

Wind power effects... for Wolfgang
 

"Kiyu" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 28 Aug 2008 21:33:19 -0400, "Opus--Mark H. Bowen"
wrote:

Ah lucky you.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9UPe6A_UVPc
Lots of durability items to overcome but it looks like fun.
If'n we had a bit of wind here this would be a candidate for my next
failed energy project.

Kiyu

That's pretty neat, though I'm not sure how practical it is. Kinda noisy
too, it seemed. However, it might be just the thing I need for my planned
huntin' cabin on my uncle's mountain property.
Mark,
Projects like this to me are mostly for fun (and to prevent brain rot)
but a lot can be learned from them and this fellow demonstrated how to
get the into wind power on a shoestring. Of course most of us don't
have CNC capabilities in our basements and perhaps a pulley & belt
driving the alternator from the 87 Olds out back might suit the
tinkerer better.

If you decide to do any solar or wind projects for your cabin this
site is the best home energy site I've ever found and if you have any
interest at all in such stuff it can keep you occupied for many, many
hours.
http://www.builditsolar.com/
When I experimented with a solar panel some years ago the fellow who
runs it was very helpful.

Kiyu

Thanks Kiyu,

I bookmarked the site and will go thru it when I have more time--classes
began again on Tuesday last :~^ ) and :~^ (

I fished more this Summer than I have in previous 3 Summers, and sure will
miss the free time now that classes have begun, but I'm getting very close
to completing my program. Can't wait to finish, so that I can start a new
program, likely in Geology/Planning.

Op


** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **

Wind power effects... for Wolfgang
 

In article , jeff miller
writes

bat and bird impact statements are usually required as part of the
regulatory approval process for wind farms. i'll be interested in your
report and opinion of the experience up there. the wind farm i saw in
wyoming this summer was visually appealing on the windy plains and
hills in unitas county. while i have no doubt there are and will be
bat casualties, i doubt it will be of sufficient significance in most
of the areas wind farms will be located.

jeff

USA and UK have one thing in common ....."U"

If you want to have another view on Bird casualties because of wind
farms Try Googling "Bird Casualty statistics in the UK" and you will
find some interesting articles there completely opposed to the
proliferation of wind farms in this green and pleasant land. Oh yes -
off shore ones as well.
--
Bill Grey

Wind power effects... for Wolfgang
 

"jeff miller" wrote in message
. ..

bat and bird impact statements are usually required as part of the
regulatory approval process for wind farms. i'll be interested in your
report and opinion of the experience up there. the wind farm i saw in
wyoming this summer was visually appealing on the windy plains and hills
in unitas county. while i have no doubt there are and will be bat
casualties, i doubt it will be of sufficient significance in most of the
areas wind farms will be located.

Interestingly, I got a couple of emails on Thursday (while I was out of
state) concerning efforts to evaluate wind power generation from a number of
perspectives. Both of these came from people involved in birdwatching and
involved in various organizations related to this avocation as well as
others on broadly environmental themes. One of those emails concerned
proposals to set up windfarms IN the great lakes.......an idea I seem to
recall hearing something about a while back. :)

As Bill Grey pointed out, not everyone is yet sanguine about the birds and
whirling blades scenario. However, I suspect that even in these days of
increasing green consciousness, economics will come to dwarf other
considerations. In the meantime, while the currently available technology
is rather mature (enough so that major electrical power generation companies
are now large players in this nascent industry), there are vast untapped
resources available in as yet untested....hell, even undreamed
of.....designs, many of which will be safer for wildlife (assuming that the
risks, which are by no means yet clearly understood in enough detail, are
great enough to warrant greater protection) and various of which are likely
to be more efficient than current designs in differing sets of conditions.
In the near future, there is every reason to believe that new designs will
overcome many of the remaining technological hurdles. This is no pie in the
sky dreaming of miracle solutions. Rather, it is a sober reflection on the
vast technological and engineering forces that are currently available, and
the money which will soon become available in the search for replacements
for fossil fuels. Solar generation, on the other hand, MAY be feasible on a
large scale.....someday.....but most certainly not without some
unpredictable major technological breakthroughs.

At any rate, it's going to be fun to watch what happens in the next couple
of decades......and the smart money will be on wind.

I'll keep you posted on anything that crops up around here.

Wolfgang

Wind power effects... for Wolfgang
 

In article , Wolfgang
writes
As Bill Grey pointed out, not everyone is yet sanguine about the birds and
whirling blades scenario. However, I suspect that even in these days of
increasing green consciousness, economics will come to dwarf other
considerations. I

A few years ago when I was involved with the electricity supply industry
as a surveyor, It was my task to survey a route for an overhead line to
service a proposed windfarm. Interestingly enough, the windfarm was
being built largely on a farm where several fields were unproductive and
difficult to work. The farmer had been coaxed to sell his fields to the
developers and was given a directorship in the new supply company.

I'll bet he took some coaxing! You are right Wolfgang, economics did
dwarf other considerations.

It might be argued that building the windfarm on unproductive farmland
was a good decision, but here in Wales, pristine hillside is being
swallowed up by these horrendous eyesores with hardly any capacity to
provide sufficient electricity in real terms. Wales has precious little
unspoilt hills now that the roller-coaster of windfarms has gained
momentum.It may bee green in one sense but is destroying our green
landscapes in another.
--
Bill Grey

Wind power effects... for Wolfgang
 

"W. D. Grey" wrote in message
...
In article , Wolfgang
writes
As Bill Grey pointed out, not everyone is yet sanguine about the birds and
whirling blades scenario. However, I suspect that even in these days of
increasing green consciousness, economics will come to dwarf other
considerations. I

A few years ago when I was involved with the electricity supply industry
as a surveyor, It was my task to survey a route for an overhead line to
service a proposed windfarm. Interestingly enough, the windfarm was being
built largely on a farm where several fields were unproductive and
difficult to work. The farmer had been coaxed to sell his fields to the
developers and was given a directorship in the new supply company.

I'll bet he took some coaxing! You are right Wolfgang, economics did
dwarf other considerations.

Even stoic Welsh farmers feel they have a right, as well as a need, to eat,
huh? :)

It might be argued that building the windfarm on unproductive farmland was
a good decision, but here in Wales, pristine hillside is being swallowed
up by these horrendous eyesores with hardly any capacity to provide
sufficient electricity in real terms. Wales has precious little unspoilt
hills now that the roller-coaster of windfarms has gained momentum.It may
bee green in one sense but is destroying our green landscapes in another.


De gustibus non est disputandum.

Personally, I think they are beautiful. Stately and majestic come to mind
as fitting (if somewhat hackneyed) adjectives. But then, I've spent all of
my life in more or less close proximity to conventional (fossil fuel) and
nuclear power plants. I have a positively dantesque photo (with a bit of a
wry twist) that illustrates rather well why I, for one, consider windfarms
to be a more than reasonable alternative, even on esthetic grounds, to more
traditional electrical power generation schemes. I'll be happy to send it
to you (or anyone else) if you like.

As for your criticism concerning generating capacity, I find it more than a
little vague. I'm not sure I'd be able to assess hard data accurately and
to my own or anyone else's advantage without doing a lot more research (a
path I am no more eager to tread than most, I suppose) but the electrical
energy suppliers I'm familiar with here in the colonies tend to the colossal
corporation end of the business spectrum and have traditionally shied away
from speculative ventures that promise little return on their investments.
I can't see any way for them to benefit from erecting windfarms other than
selling a substantial amount of electricity. Moreover, wind generated
electricity is in its infancy.....efficiency is bound to increase.

Wolfgang