Why is this getting no play??
 

http://www.latimes.com/news/printedi...a-na-aviator6-
2008oct06,0,1670799.story?page=1


--
Scott
Reverse name to reply

Why is this getting no play??
 

On 7 Oct 2008 22:37:32 GMT, Scott Seidman
wrote:


http://www.latimes.com/news/printedi...a-na-aviator6-
2008oct06,0,1670799.story?page=1

Maybe for the same reasons Obama's pot and blow usage isn't...

Speaking only for myself, I don't think that anyone who hasn't done a
few wild things in their youth is fit to be a leader as an adult. I
don't begrudge a person their mistakes, only not learning from them.

HTH,
R

Why is this getting no play??
 

wrote in
:

On 7 Oct 2008 22:37:32 GMT, Scott Seidman
wrote:


http://www.latimes.com/news/printedi...a-na-aviator6-
2008oct06,0,1670799.story?page=1

Maybe for the same reasons Obama's pot and blow usage isn't...

Speaking only for myself, I don't think that anyone who hasn't done a
few wild things in their youth is fit to be a leader as an adult. I
don't begrudge a person their mistakes, only not learning from them.

HTH,
R


How many plane crashes do you have to have to show you're not learning from
your mistakes?? At least 4, I imagine.

--
Scott
Reverse name to reply

Why is this getting no play??
 

On 7 Oct 2008 23:03:57 GMT, Scott Seidman
wrote:

wrote in
:

On 7 Oct 2008 22:37:32 GMT, Scott Seidman
wrote:


http://www.latimes.com/news/printedi...a-na-aviator6-
2008oct06,0,1670799.story?page=1

Maybe for the same reasons Obama's pot and blow usage isn't...

Speaking only for myself, I don't think that anyone who hasn't done a
few wild things in their youth is fit to be a leader as an adult. I
don't begrudge a person their mistakes, only not learning from them.

HTH,
R


How many plane crashes do you have to have to show you're not learning from
your mistakes?? At least 4, I imagine.

How many strikeouts do you have to have to be leading home-run hitter of
all time...? But I see what you're saying...Obama could have a bad day,
get all coked up and high on Thai stick, freak out, and start pushing
buttons or something, whereas McCain shouldn't be allowed to fly fighter
jets anymore...fair enough...

HTH,
R

Why is this getting no play??
 

On 7 Oct 2008 22:37:32 GMT, Scott Seidman
wrote:


http://www.latimes.com/news/printedi...a-na-aviator6-
2008oct06,0,1670799.story?page=1

Why should it. Why isn't this getting any press:

Franklin Raines was a Chairman and Chief
Executive Officer at Fannie Mae. Raines was forced to retire from
his position with Fannie Mae when auditing discovered severe
irregulaties in Fannie Mae's accounting activities. At the time of
his departure The Wall Street Journal noted,
' Raines, who long defended the company's accounting despite
mounting evidence that it wasn't proper , issued a statement
late Tuesday conceding that 'mistakes were made' and saying he
would assume responsibility as he had earlier promised. News reports
indicate the company was under growing pressure from regulators to
shake up its management in the wake of findings that the
company's books ran afoul of generally accepted accounting principles
for four years.' Fannie Mae had to reduce its
surplus by $9 billio n.

Raines left with a 'golden parachute valued at $240
Million in benefits. The Government filed suit against Raines when the
depth of the accounting scandal became clear.
http://housingdoom.com/2006/12/18/fannie-charges/ . The
Government noted, ' The 101 charges reveal how the individuals
improperly manipulated earnings to maximize their bonuses, while
knowingly neglecting accounting systems and internal controls,
misapplying over twenty accounting principles and misleading the
regulator and the public. The Notice explains how they submitted six
years of misleading and inaccurate accounting statements and
inaccurate cap ital reports that enabled them to grow Fannie Mae in an
unsafe and unsound manner.' These charges were made in
2006. The Court ordered Raines to return $50 Million Dollars he
received in bonuses based on the miss-stated Fannie Mae profits.

Tim Howard - Was the
Chief Financial Officer of Fannie Mae. Howard 'was a strong internal
proponent of using accounting strategies that would ensure a 'stable
pattern of earnings' at Fannie. In everyday English - he was
cooking the books . The Government Investigation
determined that, 'Chief Financial Officer, Tim Howard, failed to
provide adequate oversight to key control and reporting functions
within Fannie Mae ,'

On June 16, 2006, Rep. Richard Baker, R-La .,
asked the Justice Department to investigate his allegations
that two former Fannie Mae executives lied to Congress
in October 2004 when theydenied manipulating the mortgage-finance
giant's income statement to achieve management pay bonuses .
Investigations by federal regulators and the company's board of
directors since concluded that management did manipulate 1998 earnings
to trigger bonuses. Raines and Howard resigned under pressure in late
2004.

Howard's Golden Parachute was estimated at $20 Million!

Jim Johnson -
A former executive at Lehman Brothers and who was
later forced from his position as Fannie Mae CEO . A look
at the Office of Federal Housing Enterprise Oversight's May 2006
report ; on mismanagement and corruption
inside Fannie Mae, and you'll see some interesting things about
Johnson. Investigators found that Fannie Mae had hidden a
substantial amount of Johnson's 1998 compensation from the public,
reporting that it was between $6 million and $7 million when it fact
it was $21 million.' Johnson is currently under investigation
for taking illegal loans from Countrywide while serving as CEO of
Fannie Mae.

Johnson's Golden Parachute was estimated at $28
Million.




WHERE ARE THEY NOW?

FRANKLIN RAINES? Raines works
for the Obama Campaign as Chief Economic Advisor

TIM HOWARD?
Howard is also a Chief Economic Advisor to Obama

JIM JOHNSON?
Johnson hired as a Senior Obama Finance Advisor and was
selected to run Obama's Vice Presidential Search Committee

Why is this getting no play??
 

On 7 Oct 2008 23:03:57 GMT, Scott Seidman
wrote:

How many plane crashes do you have to have to show you're not learning from
your mistakes?? At least 4, I imagine.

How many chances do you need to get out of a war where you are in
constant danger. Kerry left fraudulently. While aboard Forrestal
waiting to go on a sortie, McCain's aircraft was hit by a mis-fired
missle and blew up. McCain got out, rescued the plane captain, and
helped fight the fire. When Forrestal was sent home, *along with her
aircrews*, McCain volunteered to change squadrons and went aboard
Oriskany to continue his duties. It was from Oriskany that he was
shot down. He's a genuine hero, Scott. Stop trying to make him out
to be anything else. You're better than that.

Dave

Why is this getting no play??
 

Dave LaCourse wrote in
:

WHERE ARE THEY NOW?

FRANKLIN RAINES? Raines works
for the Obama Campaign as Chief Economic Advisor


TIM HOWARD?
Howard is also a Chief Economic Advisor to Obama


JIM JOHNSON?
Johnson hired as a Senior Obama Finance Advisor and was
selected to run Obama's Vice Presidential Search Committee




I was going to refute each one individually, but snopes covers them all at
once, Dave.

http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/fanniemae.asp



--
Scott
Reverse name to reply

Why is this getting no play??
 

Dave LaCourse wrote in
:

He's a genuine hero, Scott. Stop trying to make him out
to be anything else. You're better than that.

He's a hero, Dave, but we're talking about the judgement of a man who
wants to lead the free world.

Before Vietnam, he crashed an AD-6 into Corpus Christi Bay.
"Investigators determined that McCain was watching instruments in his
cockpit that indicated the position of his landing gear and had lost
track of his altitude and speed."

He ran his Skyraider into electrical wires in Spain. McCain himself said
this was because of "daredevil clowning".

He ejected from a T-2 in 1965 over Virginia, crashing the plane into the
woods. "The report found that McCain, then assigned to squadron VT-7 in
Meridian, Miss., had made several errors: He failed to switch the plane's
power system to battery backup, which "seriously jeopardized his survival
chances." His idea of landing on the drag strip was "viewed with concern
and is indicative of questionable emergency procedure.""

He crashed two planes and almost crashed a third before he ever saw
combat.

He probably wouldn't have still been flying by Vietnam if his father
weren't Mr. Big.

Perhaps this explains why less than 10 pages of his military record have
been released, when the full package is rumored to be hundreds of pages.

Cleland was a hero, too, Dave. Why was it OK to post mortem his PH, but
asking why we don't know about McCain's early aviation problems is
questioning his heroism?




--
Scott
Reverse name to reply

Why is this getting no play??
 

Dave LaCourse wrote:

... He's a genuine hero, Scott. Stop trying to make him out
to be anything else. You're better than that.

John Kerry is also a genuine hero but that didn't stop the
Swift Boat lies.

Face the facts, Captain McCain was a first-class ****up as
a midshipman and an officer, the only reason it took them
so long to finally drum his ass out of the Navy was because
he was a legacy officer, the son and grandson of Admirals.

--
Ken Fortenberry

Why is this getting no play??
 

On Tue, 07 Oct 2008 18:57:23 -0500, Ken Fortenberry
wrote:

Dave LaCourse wrote:

... He's a genuine hero, Scott. Stop trying to make him out
to be anything else. You're better than that.

John Kerry is also a genuine hero

Er, no.

but that didn't stop the Swift Boat lies.

True enough.

Face the facts, Captain McCain was a first-class ****up as
a midshipman and an officer, the only reason it took them
so long to finally drum his ass out of the Navy was because
he was a legacy officer, the son and grandson of Admirals.

Er, no.

HTH,
R

Why is this getting no play??
 

On 7 Oct 2008 23:40:13 GMT, Scott Seidman
wrote:

Cleland was a hero, too, Dave. Why was it OK to post mortem his PH,
\
Because he didn't EARN a PH. Perhaps Kerry can give him the "friendly
fire" ph he got, or the "rice in the buttocks" ph.

ALL Naval aviators are hot shoes. They couldn't and wouldn't be
pilots unless they were. There are countless stories about hotshoeing
pilots, and I've seen a few myself. Try landing an aircraft on a
little small patch of runway that is moving up and down and going
about 30 mph. Then try to do it at night. Obama would **** his pants
just being IN the aircraft, never mind piloting it. The question you
have to answer is, why did McCain volunteer for continued flights over
VN when his squadron was going home? Why would he volunteer to
continue to fly into harm's way? Ya think it could be because his
country comes first? What the **** has Obama done for this country?
Nada! Zippo! Zilch! He was associated with a pastor for 20 years who
said "God Damn America," and yet he remained in that church. His
mentor was a communist. He pals were domestic terrorists, his present
day advisors are crooks. His wife has never been proud to call
herself American. What has Obama done, Scott? WHAT? And you are
going to vote for this well spoken, untried, untrue, lying
professional politician? Un****inbelievable.

He's gonna be the next postus, so I hope to hell you can tell me WHY
he should be potus. His own VP choice said that McCain is able to
take the office but Obama "isn't ready". That was said by HIS VP
choice. Perhaps you should be voting for the Biden/Obama ticket. He
make no sense whatsoever the other way around. WHAT HAS HE DONE?

Dave

Why is this getting no play??
 

On 7 Oct 2008 23:21:48 GMT, Scott Seidman
wrote:

http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/fanniemae.asp

Oh, forgive me. They are just "associted" with Obama. My mistake.
They're crooks. Look up the election commision monies given to
Presidential candidates this year. Tell me how much money McCain got
from FM and FMac and then how much Obama got.

Dave

Why is this getting no play??
 

On Tue, 07 Oct 2008 18:57:23 -0500, Ken Fortenberry
wrote:

John Kerry is also a genuine hero but that didn't stop the
Swift Boat lies.

Yeah, with a PH from "friendly fire" when he was on coastal patrol,
and a PH from "rice in the buttocks". A BS for picking up the Army
officer out of the river after HE, KERRY, knocked the guy overboard
with chicken**** maneuvers to get away from a fight. And if you think
he deserved a SS for what he did, then every swinging dick grunt in
Nam deserves one. He did nothing special.

And heros get honorable discharges, not ones from a "board of
officers".

McCain is a hero. Period. And Obama is a nothing. Never has been
anything and I pray he never will be anything. Of course Jo will
retire if he is elected. We need to cut back on our taxes, being the
unpatriotic Republicans that we are dontchaknow.

Dave

Why is this getting no play??
 

Why is this getting no play??
 

"Dave LaCourse" wrote in message
...
On 7 Oct 2008 23:40:13 GMT, Scott Seidman
wrote:

Cleland was a hero, too, Dave. Why was it OK to post mortem his PH,
\
Because he didn't EARN a PH. Perhaps Kerry can give him the "friendly
fire" ph he got, or the "rice in the buttocks" ph.

ALL Naval aviators are hot shoes. They couldn't and wouldn't be
pilots unless they were. There are countless stories about hotshoeing
pilots, and I've seen a few myself. Try landing an aircraft on a
little small patch of runway that is moving up and down and going
about 30 mph. Then try to do it at night. Obama would **** his pants
just being IN the aircraft, never mind piloting it. The question you
have to answer is, why did McCain volunteer for continued flights over
VN when his squadron was going home? Why would he volunteer to
continue to fly into harm's way? Ya think it could be because his
country comes first? What the **** has Obama done for this country?
Nada! Zippo! Zilch! He was associated with a pastor for 20 years who
said "God Damn America," and yet he remained in that church. His
mentor was a communist. He pals were domestic terrorists, his present
day advisors are crooks. His wife has never been proud to call
herself American. What has Obama done, Scott? WHAT? And you are
going to vote for this well spoken, untried, untrue, lying
professional politician? Un****inbelievable.

He's gonna be the next postus, so I hope to hell you can tell me WHY
he should be potus. His own VP choice said that McCain is able to
take the office but Obama "isn't ready". That was said by HIS VP
choice. Perhaps you should be voting for the Biden/Obama ticket. He
make no sense whatsoever the other way around. WHAT HAS HE DONE?

Dave


Dave

You are one of the few in this group that I have respect for.

I am appalled that others can't see through bull**** that Hussein Obama is
spewing.

Un ****in believable.

Why is this getting no play??
 

"Dave LaCourse" wrote in message
...
On 7 Oct 2008 23:21:48 GMT, Scott Seidman
wrote:

http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/fanniemae.asp

Oh, forgive me. They are just "associted" with Obama. My mistake.
They're crooks. Look up the election commision monies given to
Presidential candidates this year. Tell me how much money McCain got
from FM and FMac and then how much Obama got.

Dave


Dave

I also want to know why 450 pages of pork aren't getting any airtime. Our
politicians seem to be very interested into the workings of AIG and how the
execs took a million dollar vacation after the tax payers tried to bail them
out, but isn't what they did with a 3 page, 700 billion bailout the same
thing? They added 450 pages of pork and did it right in front of the
country when all eyes were focused on them.

If we think that is bad, just wait until Hussein Obama starts his 800
billion dollar spending spree. Guess who pays for that?

Why is this getting no play??
 

On Tue, 07 Oct 2008 19:16:28 -0500, Ken Fortenberry
wrote:

wrote:
On Tue, 07 Oct 2008 18:57:23 -0500, Ken Fortenberry
wrote:

Dave LaCourse wrote:
... He's a genuine hero, Scott. Stop trying to make him out
to be anything else. You're better than that.
John Kerry is also a genuine hero

Er, no.

but that didn't stop the Swift Boat lies.

True enough.

Face the facts, Captain McCain was a first-class ****up as
a midshipman and an officer, the only reason it took them
so long to finally drum his ass out of the Navy was because
he was a legacy officer, the son and grandson of Admirals.

Er, no.

John Kerry signed Standard Form 180 (SF-180) which allowed the
release of his full military record. The record, and his own
crew, prove that the Swift Boaters were liars.

Captain McCain has refused to sign Standard Form 180 (SF-180).

Why ?

Because John Kerry voted to seal all POW records...? Are you suggesting
that McCain was flying (and/or crashing) planes while he was a POW?

Because he was a royal ****up that's why.

You've convinced me. McCain should never be allowed to fly a fighter
jet again and Obama is a crackhead dope fiend...

But he was a "hero" too, in the same way many other POWs were
"heroes".

Er, no. His conduct as a POW was heroic, and attempts to diminish that
for political reasons do nothing but reflect badly on those making the
attempt.

HTH,
R

Why is this getting no play??
 

Why is this getting no play??
 

"Dry_Heat" wrote in message
...

"Dave LaCourse" wrote in message
...
On 7 Oct 2008 23:40:13 GMT, Scott Seidman
wrote:

Cleland was a hero, too, Dave. Why was it OK to post mortem his PH,
\
Because he didn't EARN a PH. Perhaps Kerry can give him the "friendly
fire" ph he got, or the "rice in the buttocks" ph.

ALL Naval aviators are hot shoes. They couldn't and wouldn't be
pilots unless they were. There are countless stories about hotshoeing
pilots, and I've seen a few myself. Try landing an aircraft on a
little small patch of runway that is moving up and down and going
about 30 mph. Then try to do it at night. Obama would **** his pants
just being IN the aircraft, never mind piloting it. The question you
have to answer is, why did McCain volunteer for continued flights over
VN when his squadron was going home? Why would he volunteer to
continue to fly into harm's way? Ya think it could be because his
country comes first? What the **** has Obama done for this country?
Nada! Zippo! Zilch! He was associated with a pastor for 20 years who
said "God Damn America," and yet he remained in that church. His
mentor was a communist. He pals were domestic terrorists, his present
day advisors are crooks. His wife has never been proud to call
herself American. What has Obama done, Scott? WHAT? And you are
going to vote for this well spoken, untried, untrue, lying
professional politician? Un****inbelievable.

He's gonna be the next postus, so I hope to hell you can tell me WHY
he should be potus. His own VP choice said that McCain is able to
take the office but Obama "isn't ready". That was said by HIS VP
choice. Perhaps you should be voting for the Biden/Obama ticket. He
make no sense whatsoever the other way around. WHAT HAS HE DONE?

Dave


Dave

You are one of the few in this group that I have respect for.

I am appalled that others can't see through bull**** that Hussein Obama is
spewing.

Un ****in believable.

No, it really not all that hard to believe that two hate mongers would
support one another.

I sure hope you and dave enjoy 8 years of Barack Obama, cause it sure looks
like it will come to fruition!

Op --McCain/MILF '08--

Why is this getting no play??
 

"Dry_Heat" wrote in message
...

I also want to know why 450 pages of pork aren't getting any airtime. Our
politicians seem to be very interested into the workings of AIG and how
the execs took a million dollar vacation after the tax payers tried to
bail them out, but isn't what they did with a 3 page, 700 billion bailout
the same thing? They added 450 pages of pork and did it right in front of
the country when all eyes were focused on them.

If we think that is bad, just wait until Hussein Obama starts his 800
billion dollar spending spree. Guess who pays for that?

As you are likely living on the dole, I suspect you won't be burdened by any
spending increases but rather gain from them.

Op --not that there's anything wrong with that--

Why is this getting no play??
 

On Oct 7, 6:06*pm, "Dry_Heat" wrote:

And where did that $450 million in pork go Dave? Next time you take a
partisan dump you ought to make sure its not targeted on your team.
But hell, maybe voting for these idiots a third time will do the
trick. Not

Or maybe you haven't heard: the country is sick and tired of right-
wing BS? The bills have come due and they have to be paid. Its time
for the adults to take over. The last time the Republicans balanced a
budget was half a century ago.

Don't fret. Drug addict America haters like Rush will still be
available 24/7 with all the blather-headed crap a right-wing dead-
ender could want. The rest of us have to live in the real world.
Independents and many real Conservatives and are going with the
Democrats this time. They are putting the country's interests over
shabby ideology.
Dave

Why is this getting no play??
 

On Oct 8, 8:58*am, "Dry_Heat" wrote:


I am appalled that others can't see through bull**** that Hussein Obama is
spewing.



Now there's some irony for you.

--riverman
Sorry sir, your xenophobia is showing....

Why is this getting no play??
 

On Tue, 07 Oct 2008 19:16:28 -0500, Ken Fortenberry
wrote:

But he was a "hero" too, in the same way many other POWs were
"heroes".

His POW ordeal was not necessary. As the son of a high ranking
admiral, he was offered a release. Remember, his right shoulder, both
arms, and I believe a leg were broken. And they weren't set properly.
He lived in a helluva lot of pain. Yet, when offered an early release
because of his father's position, he refused. First captured, first
released. That's the way it is.

McCain was a hero during the fire aboard Forrestal. His stationary
plane had been hit by an errant missle from another plane on board.
He exited his aircraft, help evacuate others and fight the fire.
THEN, instead of going home with his air group aboard Forrestal (the
carrier was out of commission and headed home for repairs along with
its air groups), McCain volunteered to go aboard Oriskany and continue
his sorties over NVN. THAT is what a true hero would do, not run home
with 3 phony PHs like your hero.

Dave

Why is this getting no play??
 

On Tue, 07 Oct 2008 21:47:10 -0500, Ken Fortenberry
wrote:

So why has Captain McCain refused to sign SF-180 ?

Uh, perhaps he got the clap in Alongapo?

Just because he *only* made Captain (O6) and did not make Admiral is
not unusual. Not everyone makes Admiral, even sons of Admirals.

Dave

Why is this getting no play??
 

Dave LaCourse wrote in
:

His stationary
plane had been hit by an errant missle from another plane on board.

I seem to recall someone suggesting that because Cleland's injuries were
from a freindly grenade, this somehow made him less of a hero.


--
Scott
Reverse name to reply

Why is this getting no play??
 

Dave LaCourse wrote:
Ken Fortenberry wrote:
But he was a "hero" too, in the same way many other POWs were
"heroes".
snip
THEN, instead of going home with his air group aboard Forrestal (the
carrier was out of commission and headed home for repairs along with
its air groups), McCain volunteered to go aboard Oriskany and continue
his sorties over NVN. THAT is what a true hero would do, not run home
with 3 phony PHs like your hero.

You're as goofy as McCain. Volunteering for combat isn't heroic,
it's incredibly poor judgment. Not to mention juvenile. A *TRUE*
hero takes one look at that monumental disaster known as Vietnam
and gets the hell out of there as quickly as possible to go home
and fight against the war.

The things that pass for heroes I just don't understand.

--
Ken Fortenberry

Why is this getting no play??
 

Dave LaCourse wrote in
:


ALL Naval aviators are hot shoes. They couldn't and wouldn't be
pilots unless they were.

My point exactly, Dave. Do we really want someone with that attitude and
temperatment at the helm right now?? If this is a story that can tell us
what McCain's outlook is, isn't this an important story?

--
Scott
Reverse name to reply

Why is this getting no play??
 

On 8 Oct 2008 12:25:07 GMT, Scott Seidman
wrote:

Dave LaCourse wrote in
:


ALL Naval aviators are hot shoes. They couldn't and wouldn't be
pilots unless they were.

My point exactly, Dave. Do we really want someone with that attitude and
temperatment at the helm right now?? If this is a story that can tell us
what McCain's outlook is, isn't this an important story?

Scott, in all seriousness, what he did as a young man is not absolutely
an indicator of how he might act as an older, more mature man, and in
McCain's specific case, his later actions show a distinct maturing from
a "hot shot" to a real leader, at least in the military sense. By all
or most accounts, McCain began to "straighten up" before he was shot
down and when McCain returned from being a POW, he was a real leader.
His later military career was substantially different than his earlier
career and he showed real promise. Hence my comments about Obama's
admitted drug abuse - I've no doubt that he learned from that and
matured beyond it, and is probably a better man with better
understanding because of it, as did McCain from his youthful actions.
But again, if one's past is the only indicator in your mind, fine -
you're firmly convinced me - McCain should never be allowed to fly any
aircraft ever again and Obama is a dangerous drug abuser.

TC,
R

Why is this getting no play??
 

On Wed, 08 Oct 2008 07:24:38 -0500, Ken Fortenberry
wrote:

Dave LaCourse wrote:
Ken Fortenberry wrote:
But he was a "hero" too, in the same way many other POWs were
"heroes".
snip
THEN, instead of going home with his air group aboard Forrestal (the
carrier was out of commission and headed home for repairs along with
its air groups), McCain volunteered to go aboard Oriskany and continue
his sorties over NVN. THAT is what a true hero would do, not run home
with 3 phony PHs like your hero.

You're as goofy as McCain. Volunteering for combat isn't heroic,
it's incredibly poor judgment. Not to mention juvenile. A *TRUE*
hero takes one look at that monumental disaster known as Vietnam
and gets the hell out of there as quickly as possible to go home
and fight against the war.

Ken, you're as wrong as you can possibly be. I know at least one
officer who hated the war, thought it was a monumental mistake and a
waste of lives, but also felt that he had a duty to both obey orders as
well as do his best to see that those under his command had leaders who
would effective lead them. And from what I've seen of fair number of
other men, he apparently wasn't alone in his feelings.

The things that pass for heroes I just don't understand.

More's the pity, and that's just plain sad...

I sincerely hope this helps,
R

Why is this getting no play??
 

Why is this getting no play??
 

Why is this getting no play??
 

On 8 Oct 2008 12:58:55 GMT, Scott Seidman
wrote:

wrote in
:

On 8 Oct 2008 12:25:07 GMT, Scott Seidman
wrote:

Dave LaCourse wrote in
:


ALL Naval aviators are hot shoes. They couldn't and wouldn't be
pilots unless they were.

My point exactly, Dave. Do we really want someone with that attitude
and temperatment at the helm right now?? If this is a story that can
tell us what McCain's outlook is, isn't this an important story?

Scott, in all seriousness, what he did as a young man is not
absolutely an indicator of how he might act as an older, more mature
man, and in McCain's specific case, his later actions show a distinct
maturing from a "hot shot" to a real leader, at least in the military
sense. By all or most accounts, McCain began to "straighten up"
before he was shot down and when McCain returned from being a POW, he
was a real leader. His later military career was substantially
different than his earlier career and he showed real promise. Hence
my comments about Obama's admitted drug abuse - I've no doubt that he
learned from that and matured beyond it, and is probably a better man
with better understanding because of it, as did McCain from his
youthful actions. But again, if one's past is the only indicator in
your mind, fine - you're firmly convinced me - McCain should never be
allowed to fly any aircraft ever again and Obama is a dangerous drug
abuser.

TC,
R


Richard, I think we're looking at one of them "four legs, two legs, three
legs" things. McCain simply doesn't look anything like the leader he was
eight years ago. He doesn't seem to have it in him to keep the hot shot
supressed anymore, and I suspect we'll see more and more of that as he
continues on into his dotage.

If McCain really was still a leader, he would have been leading a
Republican charge to keep the Idiot in Chief under control these last
eight years, instead of writing him a blank check. This would have been
the "maverick" move that would have kept a perfectly good (arguably)
political party from becoming poison for at least one election cycle, and
history would have put him in the political hero column.

Because he did not do this, his party is out of a leadership role, as is
appropriate for a group that has to redefine their mission to regain
credibility with moderate Americans.

And what would Obama have done had if he were a real leader...?

HTH,
R

Why is this getting no play??
 

Why is this getting no play??
 

On 8 Oct 2008 12:25:07 GMT, Scott Seidman
wrote:

My point exactly, Dave. Do we really want someone with that attitude and
temperatment at the helm right now?? If this is a story that can tell us
what McCain's outlook is, isn't this an important story?

--

No more important than Obama's relations with Ayers, the Dems not
reporting FM troubles, Obama taking money from Palestinians, Obama's
relations with "Rev" Wright, no more important than "What the hell has
Obama EVER done", etc, etc, etc. He was and still is a warrior, a
different breed than you. There is nothing wrong with that.

Worry about Israel, Scott. You will hear more of them in the future
if Obama wins. And it ain't gonna be good news.

Dave

Why is this getting no play??
 

On 8 Oct 2008 12:20:03 GMT, Scott Seidman
wrote:

I seem to recall someone suggesting that because Cleland's injuries were
from a freindly grenade, this somehow made him less of a hero.

Cleland's accident had NOTHING to do with his heroism. NOTHING. He
was in the wrong place at the wrong time. He *legitimately* won the
SS for his heroism. The friendly grenade had nothing to do with his
heroism. Sheeeeesh.

Dave

Why is this getting no play??
 

On Wed, 08 Oct 2008 07:24:38 -0500, Ken Fortenberry
wrote:

The things that pass for heroes I just don't understand.

Oh, we all know that, Ken. d;o(

Dave
(who hopes the country never needs Ken or anyone like him)

Why is this getting no play??
 

On Wed, 08 Oct 2008 09:02:52 -0500, Ken Fortenberry
wrote:

wrote:
Ken Fortenberry wrote:
Dave LaCourse wrote:
Ken Fortenberry wrote:
But he was a "hero" too, in the same way many other POWs were
"heroes".
snip
THEN, instead of going home with his air group aboard Forrestal (the
carrier was out of commission and headed home for repairs along with
its air groups), McCain volunteered to go aboard Oriskany and continue
his sorties over NVN. THAT is what a true hero would do, not run home
with 3 phony PHs like your hero.
You're as goofy as McCain. Volunteering for combat isn't heroic,
it's incredibly poor judgment. Not to mention juvenile. A *TRUE*
hero takes one look at that monumental disaster known as Vietnam
and gets the hell out of there as quickly as possible to go home
and fight against the war.

Ken, you're as wrong as you can possibly be.

No, I'm not.

I know at least one
officer ...

Oh, well then, that settles it. I stand corrected.

Sheesh.

Ken, I was stationed with the Army for a good portion of VN. I had
many friends, officers, senior NCOs, and plain old kid grunts. Very
few of them wanted to go to war. None of them enjoyed it. They went
because they signed a pledge with their country. Every single
swinging dick that went there and did his duty was a hero in my book.
McCain's heroism stands out because of his actions before and after he
was captured. To suggest that he is not a hero makes you worse than
any of your so called "Swiftboaters". He saw his duty to report
aboard Oriskany and continue his service. Your idea of a hero is to
hide and save your own ass. I can understand why you never served.

I served with a M of H winner at Ft. Devens. He hated war. But he
served because *it was his duty to do so*.

Dave

Why is this getting no play??
 

well put Dave.....i would say "they played the hand that was dealt
them"... at the
time......

it may be hard for some folks to understand that now...




" Very few of them wanted to go to war. None of them enjoyed it.
They went
because they signed a pledge with their country. Every single
swinging dick that went there and did his duty was a hero in my book.
"





On Oct 8, 10:12*am, Dave LaCourse wrote:
On Wed, 08 Oct 2008 09:02:52 -0500, Ken Fortenberry





wrote:
wrote:
Ken Fortenberry wrote:
Dave LaCourse wrote:
Ken Fortenberry wrote:
But he was a "hero" too, in the same way many other POWs were
"heroes".
snip
THEN, instead of going home with his air group aboard Forrestal (the
carrier was out of commission and headed home for repairs along with
its air groups), McCain volunteered to go aboard Oriskany and continue
his sorties over NVN. *THAT is what a true hero would do, not run home
with 3 phony PHs like your hero.
You're as goofy as McCain. Volunteering for combat isn't heroic,
it's incredibly poor judgment. Not to mention juvenile. A *TRUE*
hero takes one look at that monumental disaster known as Vietnam
and gets the hell out of there as quickly as possible to go home
and fight against the war.

Ken, you're as wrong as you can possibly be.

No, I'm not.

I know at least one
officer ...

Oh, well then, that settles it. I stand corrected.

Sheesh.

Ken, I was stationed with the Army for a good portion of VN. *I had
many friends, officers, senior NCOs, and plain old kid grunts. *Very
few of them wanted to go to war. *None of them enjoyed it. *They went
because they signed a pledge with their country. *Every single
swinging dick that went there and did his duty was a hero in my book.
McCain's heroism stands out because of his actions before and after he
was captured. *To suggest that he is not a hero makes you worse than
any of your so called "Swiftboaters". *He saw his duty to report
aboard Oriskany and continue his service. *Your idea of a hero is to
hide and save your own ass. *I can understand why you never served.

I served with a M of H winner at Ft. Devens. *He hated war. *But he
served because *it was his duty to do so*.

Dave- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Why is this getting no play??
 

Dave LaCourse wrote:
Ken Fortenberry wrote:
snip
Sheesh.

Ken, I was stationed with the Army for a good portion of VN. I had
many friends, officers, senior NCOs, and plain old kid grunts. Very
few of them wanted to go to war. None of them enjoyed it. They went
because they signed a pledge with their country.

Yeah, yeah, true patriots, brave heroes, real stand-up,
John Wayne he-men one and all. Good for them and good
for you. There were also good, honest, patriotic men
who did their stint, got out as soon as possible and
then became active in the anti-war movement. I consider
them to be heroes too.

Every single
swinging dick that went there and did his duty was a hero in my book.

Except John Kerry and Max Cleland, they were just posers.

McCain's heroism stands out because of his actions before and after he
was captured. To suggest that he is not a hero makes you worse than
any of your so called "Swiftboaters". ...

Actually if I suggested that he wasn't a hero I'd be exactly
the same as a Swift Boater. But I never suggested any such thing,
I said he was just as much a "hero" as any of the other POWs.

--
Ken Fortenberry

Why is this getting no play??
 

On Wed, 08 Oct 2008 13:30:38 -0500, Ken Fortenberry
wrote:

Except John Kerry and Max Cleland, they were just posers.

Cleland was a hero, a true hero.

Kerry was a phony. He got three phony PHs to get his ass out of
country, returned home, and lied. Then he went to meet with the N.Vn
delegation in Paris. Kerry served himself, not his country. Big
difference.

He was more than a hero before he was shot down, and by refusing to be
repatriated because of his father's position, he was more of a hero.
He gained the respect of every man in that hell hole.

You will never get it, Ken. You have a Neville Chamberlain mind.
Peace in our time. There has been not a *day* of peace since you were
born and to think that man can live in peace is foolish. There will
always be a Hitler, Pol Pot, Hussien, muslim fanatics, etc. You
should count yourself lucky that you have men like McCain willing to
fight for your freedom and what YOU believe in, regardless. Think
about it; you can slam your government, military, its leadership,
etc., all because of men (and women) like McCain. Obama sure as hell
hasn't done anything for you or your country.

Dave
(Jenny ate a t-shirt, the whole thing. Then vomitted it)