Economic Stimul-by-us
 

In an effort to do our little bit to get the economy going we bought a new
truck today.

The old one lasted 18++ years, 276,585 miles and is actually still going
strong although it's well past beat up and ugly

The new one is a Dodge 4 door short bed 4X4 with the Cummins diesel, it has
truly awesome power and I can't wait to hook up my trailer and head over the
pass.

However,

I feel very poor now :-(

Economic Stimul-by-us
 

On Fri, 13 Mar 2009 00:09:46 GMT, "Larry L" wrote:

In an effort to do our little bit to get the economy going we bought a new
truck today.

The old one lasted 18++ years, 276,585 miles and is actually still going
strong although it's well past beat up and ugly

The new one is a Dodge 4 door short bed 4X4 with the Cummins diesel, it has
truly awesome power and I can't wait to hook up my trailer and head over the
pass.

However,

I feel very poor now :-(


Congrats. FWIW - and speaking only from relayed info, not personal experience -
you might wish to look into one of the after-market "chip programmers." From
what I've heard, the new models are "tuned up" to provide _significantly_ more
HP than the older models (as are all US diesel PUs in the "power wars" - IMO,
really, an advertising "numbers" war with little real-world application), which,
as you probably know, isn't always a good or even necessary thing with many
diesel engine apps. I have a friend who has a 90s model Dodge with the Cummins
and he says he gets 25-28 MPG, even when pulling his camper. He looked into
replacement with a new model, but didn't because of the fuel mileage difference.
IAC, and IMO, regardless of MPG, you can't go wrong with a diesel.

TC,
R

Economic Stimul-by-us
 

"Larry L" wrote in message
...
In an effort to do our little bit to get the economy going we bought a new
truck today.

The old one lasted 18++ years, 276,585 miles and is actually still going
strong although it's well past beat up and ugly

The new one is a Dodge 4 door short bed 4X4 with the Cummins diesel, it
has truly awesome power and I can't wait to hook up my trailer and head
over the pass.

However,

I feel very poor now :-(


Nice!

I'm guessing you got an amazing deal given the economic situation? They have
some great offerings in the area, but I can't get my bride on board for a
new one although my '04 still purrs like a kitten.

As RD mentioned, the chips/programmers are really nice and will add major hp
and additional fuel economy. With the programmers (like Bullydog) you can
really dial these motors. The only concern would be the potential of voiding
the warranty.

Congrats,
JT

Economic Stimul-by-us
 

wrote

Congrats. FWIW - and speaking only from relayed info, not personal
experience -
you might wish to look into one of the after-market "chip programmers."
From
what I've heard, the new models are "tuned up" to provide _significantly_
more
HP than the older models (as are all US diesel PUs in the "power wars" -
IMO,
really, an advertising "numbers" war with little real-world application),
which,
as you probably know, isn't always a good or even necessary thing with
many
diesel engine apps.


Yeah, I looked at used trucks pretty hard just because the new ones get less
mileage.

This brand new ( '08 ) puts out 194% more HP then my '92 Cummins and 163%
more torque !! The power wars are another example of how the Big 3 have
let themselves ( and U.S. ) down .... I'd have gotten a new truck years ago
IF mileage had improved at those rates .


I kinda wanted to get the 5.9L engine not this new 6.7L but similarly
equipped used rigs ( say '06) with 80,000 miles on them were only a very few
grand less than what I paid for this new one. There are really good
incentives available right now on 'in stock' new trucks, employee pricing,
5K ( more at Ford) rebate, 0% financing .... all an effort to lower
inventory in tough times. Plus the new one has 36,000 mile bumper to
bumper and 100,000 mile Cummins warranty, so I went brand new ... trying to
balance all potential cost/ benefit factors. I don't drive a lot these
days, well less than 1/4 of what I did pre-retirement travelling to run
field trials, so a couple miles/gallon won't add up to such a large yearly
figure.

It came with a DVD that specifically warns against after market chip mods
that increase power and says they 'may' void warranty. As for de-tuning
chips, I'd guess they would have that same problem with Cummins/ Dodge,
although not with the same real world logic. However, if I am too
disappointed with the mileage I might investigate, since this thing really
does have very nearly too much power.


Larry L ( who has become one of those ol grandpas you youngsters all hate
.... the ones going the speed limit ( maybe even less ;-) and taking the time
to look around as you tailgate us, cursing, and rushing .... BUT, who, on
the 5 mile drive home from the dealer looked in his mirror to wonder how all
those people got so far behind, then looked down to see he was doing 78 in a
55 zone, .... a right foot trained by a '92 Cummins is too heavy for this
new one ( plus this is SO much quieter the speed sneaks up on ya ))

Economic Stimul-by-us
 

On Mar 13, 8:07*am, "Larry L" wrote:
wrote

Congrats. *FWIW - and speaking only from relayed info, not personal
experience -
you might wish to look into one of the after-market "chip programmers."
From
what I've heard, the new models are "tuned up" to provide _significantly_
more
HP than the older models (as are all US diesel PUs in the "power wars" -
IMO,
really, an advertising "numbers" war with little real-world application),
which,
as you probably know, isn't always a good or even necessary thing with
many
diesel engine apps.

Yeah, I looked at used trucks pretty hard just because the new ones get less
mileage.

This brand new ( '08 ) puts out 194% more HP then my '92 Cummins and 163%
more torque !! * The power wars are another example of how the Big 3 have
let themselves ( and U.S. ) down .... I'd have gotten a new truck years ago
IF mileage had improved *at those rates .

I've never really understood the fixation on HP/Torque.

If you had the choice between two vehicles:

1.0x HP/Torque and 1.5x MPG

vs

1.5x HP/Torque and 1.0x MPG

Is there some level when HP/Torque is just sufficient for
what you need? I would have thought for 99% of people
we would have long since hit that point.
- Ken

Economic Stimul-by-us
 

"Outdoors in Oregon" wrote


I've never really understood the fixation on HP/Torque.

If you had the choice between two vehicles:

1.0x HP/Torque and 1.5x MPG

vs

1.5x HP/Torque and 1.0x MPG

Is there some level when HP/Torque is just sufficient for
what you need? I would have thought for 99% of people
we would have long since hit that point.
- Ken


Well, as a guy that loaded 900 lbs of dog and probably another 700 of misc
in the bed and THEN hooked up the travel trailer and headed over Donner
Summit, several times a year .... I understand wanting adequate 'ability' in
a truck .... but

truth be told

I don't have a clue what torque really is and I can imagine it actually
taking 350 healthy horses to pull my truck, either g

Truck buyers seem to fall into two broad categories .... those that have
almost zero real need for a truck, but think they are 'way cool' in one ...
and people that actually need a truck to do truck work. Oddly, I'd bet
many bucks that it's the first group, not the second, that has fueled the
'power wars' that have misguided Detroit lately.

All that said .... when I'm towing the trailer to Montahoming this year I'm
going to be glad to have the extra muscle ..... NOT, because I really want
or need to go faster than the old truck would take me .... mainly because
it's such an impatient world out there now, especially on two lane roads,
that 'comfortable pace' is likely to trigger extremely stupid behavior in
those behind you ... even if they only have to be back there 3 miles .... so
I 'try to go fast as I can' on two lane roads more than freeways !!

Larry L ( who thinks everyone should be required to tow a heavy trailer 200
miles in a wide variety of terrain and traffic before being licensed to
drive ANY vehicle ... )

Economic Stimul-by-us
 

On Mar 13, 4:50*pm, "Larry L" wrote:
( who thinks everyone should be required to tow a heavy trailer 200
miles in a wide variety of terrain and traffic before being licensed to
drive ANY vehicle ... )

And they should be required to know how to back one up before being
allowed to tow one forward.

Joe F.

Economic Stimul-by-us
 

"rb608" wrote in message
...
On Mar 13, 4:50 pm, "Larry L" wrote:
( who thinks everyone should be required to tow a heavy trailer 200
miles in a wide variety of terrain and traffic before being licensed to
drive ANY vehicle ... )

And they should be required to know how to back one up before being
allowed to tow one forward.

Joe F


True

reminded me of the first half dozen paragraphs of this

http://www.kimshew.com/flyfish/displ...php?log_id=295

Economic Stimul-by-us
 

On Fri, 13 Mar 2009 15:07:01 GMT, "Larry L" wrote:


wrote

Congrats. FWIW - and speaking only from relayed info, not personal
experience -
you might wish to look into one of the after-market "chip programmers."
From
what I've heard, the new models are "tuned up" to provide _significantly_
more
HP than the older models (as are all US diesel PUs in the "power wars" -
IMO,
really, an advertising "numbers" war with little real-world application),
which,
as you probably know, isn't always a good or even necessary thing with
many
diesel engine apps.


Yeah, I looked at used trucks pretty hard just because the new ones get less
mileage.

This brand new ( '08 ) puts out 194% more HP then my '92 Cummins and 163%
more torque !! The power wars are another example of how the Big 3 have
let themselves ( and U.S. ) down .... I'd have gotten a new truck years ago
IF mileage had improved at those rates .


I kinda wanted to get the 5.9L engine not this new 6.7L but similarly
equipped used rigs ( say '06) with 80,000 miles on them were only a very few
grand less than what I paid for this new one. There are really good
incentives available right now on 'in stock' new trucks, employee pricing,
5K ( more at Ford) rebate, 0% financing .... all an effort to lower
inventory in tough times. Plus the new one has 36,000 mile bumper to
bumper and 100,000 mile Cummins warranty, so I went brand new ... trying to
balance all potential cost/ benefit factors. I don't drive a lot these
days, well less than 1/4 of what I did pre-retirement travelling to run
field trials, so a couple miles/gallon won't add up to such a large yearly
figure.

It came with a DVD that specifically warns against after market chip mods
that increase power and says they 'may' void warranty.

From everything I know, "may" actually means "you can bet your sweet ass it
will." However, the more modern types are not "chips," but rather, little
computers that plug into the OBD port under the dash - in fact, they look a lot
like the larger OBD scanners you now see everywhere from auto parts chain stores
to Wal-Mart to Horrible Freight...actually, that's not fair - some of the stuff
at Harbor Freight is actually decent enough for the price, I'm just not getting
under anything heavy supported by HF jackstands or anything like that.

IAC, if/when you take it to the dealer for _ANYTHING_, you restore the factory
programming, and when you pick it up, you re-program your custom settings. And
the ones I have and are familiar with are not "power-up" or "power-down," they
will set whatever you want, from torque curves to shift points to.... - IOW, you
can use them to tune for mileage when not towing and tune for whatever you are
towing.

As for de-tuning
chips, I'd guess they would have that same problem with Cummins/ Dodge,
although not with the same real world logic.

However, if I am too
disappointed with the mileage I might investigate, since this thing really
does have very nearly too much power.

I regularly pull all sorts of _VERY_ heavy stuff (in pickup terms, even 1-ton)
and all of the new (post- about 2003 or so) have WAY more power than all but a
VERY small handful of folks need.

TC,
R

Larry L ( who has become one of those ol grandpas you youngsters all hate
... the ones going the speed limit ( maybe even less ;-) and taking the time
to look around as you tailgate us, cursing, and rushing .... BUT, who, on
the 5 mile drive home from the dealer looked in his mirror to wonder how all
those people got so far behind, then looked down to see he was doing 78 in a
55 zone, .... a right foot trained by a '92 Cummins is too heavy for this
new one ( plus this is SO much quieter the speed sneaks up on ya ))

Economic Stimul-by-us
 

"JT" wrote in message
...

"Larry L" wrote in message
...
In an effort to do our little bit to get the economy going we bought a
new truck today.

The old one lasted 18++ years, 276,585 miles and is actually still going
strong although it's well past beat up and ugly

The new one is a Dodge 4 door short bed 4X4 with the Cummins diesel, it
has truly awesome power and I can't wait to hook up my trailer and head
over the pass.

However,

I feel very poor now :-(


Nice!

I'm guessing you got an amazing deal given the economic situation? They
have some great offerings in the area, but I can't get my bride on board
for a new one although my '04 still purrs like a kitten.

As RD mentioned, the chips/programmers are really nice and will add major
hp and additional fuel economy. With the programmers (like Bullydog) you
can really dial these motors. The only concern would be the potential of
voiding the warranty.

Congrats,
JT



Some of the dealers may not be selling as they will not deal. Looking for a
new vehicle for wife. Looked at a Vensa at the local Toyota dealer.
Sales guy says window sticker is the price. I told him I do not pay window
sticker during good times, why would I when no one is buying and Toyota lost
$40mm.

Economic Stimul-by-us
 

On Fri, 13 Mar 2009 07:50:04 -0700, "JT" wrote:


"Larry L" wrote in message
...
In an effort to do our little bit to get the economy going we bought a new
truck today.

The old one lasted 18++ years, 276,585 miles and is actually still going
strong although it's well past beat up and ugly

The new one is a Dodge 4 door short bed 4X4 with the Cummins diesel, it
has truly awesome power and I can't wait to hook up my trailer and head
over the pass.

However,

I feel very poor now :-(


Nice!

I'm guessing you got an amazing deal given the economic situation? They have
some great offerings in the area, but I can't get my bride on board for a
new one although my '04 still purrs like a kitten.

As RD mentioned, the chips/programmers are really nice and will add major hp
and additional fuel economy.

Not to be disagreeable, but no programmer that I'm aware of can add hp _AND_
additional fuel economy - many can do either, but it's _OR_.

And FWIW, programming for even more HP in an '04, unless you're pulling a D9 up
mountains or something, is wasting fuel and potential engine life (and wearing
other drivetrain components unnecessarily, too). The "MORE HP!!!" craze has hit
everything - that's why you still see older boats with low HP tuning on 6- and
12-71's with about a bazillion hours still running strong and guys who
constantly bury the balls on their hopped-up 2000's having to have rebuilds
after about 30 hours...OK, so not really just 30 hours, but...

TC,
R

TC,
R
With the programmers (like Bullydog) you can
really dial these motors. The only concern would be the potential of voiding
the warranty.

Congrats,
JT

Economic Stimul-by-us
 

wrote

Not to be disagreeable, but no programmer that I'm aware of can add hp
_AND_
additional fuel economy - many can do either, but it's _OR_.



what you say makes sense to me, ... but in fairness to JT .... I have
checked a couple sites just for the Hell of it and they clearly 'claim'
both


The BullyDog JT mentioned only quotes numbers for the 'more power' stuff ..
but repeatedly mentions 'better mileage'

Another brand? I looked at had customer reviews claiming 2.8 MPG for the
6.7L motor I just got and 'claims' it doesn't alter the truck in any way
detectable to the dealer

YET

the DVD that comes with the truck specifically says something to the effect
that "after market products PERMANTANTLY change" something? and are
detectable


I'm very disappointed in my mileage, thus far ( it's still under 200 miles
and driven only short distances 'in town' ..yeah, yeah, I know they take
time to break in ) and if it doesn't get a LOT better, I'll be an unhappy
camper ( it has a read-out of mileage, so I fret a lot more than I would if
I was just doing the math after a visit to the station )


What brands of after market plug into the harness deals give full control?
not that I know enough to use such a thing the BullyDog seemed to let
you choose between stock and one other setting ... +50HP and 100 ft/lps over
stock

Economic Stimul-by-us
 

On Sun, 15 Mar 2009 22:44:12 GMT, "Larry L" wrote:


wrote

Not to be disagreeable, but no programmer that I'm aware of can add hp
_AND_
additional fuel economy - many can do either, but it's _OR_.



what you say makes sense to me, ... but in fairness to JT .... I have
checked a couple sites just for the Hell of it and they clearly 'claim'
both

It's semantics - they can do both, but not at the same time. IOW, it's arguably
accurate (well, at least not fraud), albeit misleading, to say "this programmer
can add power and increase mileage" and leave it at that, because originally,
the various 'mainstream" "chips" did one or the other. But the "computer" types
can increase power and increase mileage, just not simultaneously.


The BullyDog JT mentioned only quotes numbers for the 'more power' stuff ..
but repeatedly mentions 'better mileage'

Another brand?

I'm reluctant to recommend because it'd be anecdotal (and on other
vehicles/engines) and I'd not want to have something go wrong, but if I were
buying again, I'd stick with what _I_ have had good results with - Superchips.
Pardon the pun, but YMMV.

I looked at had customer reviews claiming 2.8 MPG for the
6.7L motor I just got and 'claims' it doesn't alter the truck in any way
detectable to the dealer

If they say that, it would concern me. I believe what the law says is that the
warranty cannot be voided by the manufacturer/dealer simply for adding
aftermarket parts unless the part causes the problem - IOW, if you replace the
factory radio with a aftermarket one, and sometime later, the engine throws a
rod, they cannot void the engine warranty because of the stereo, but since we
are talking about "re-tuning" the drivetrain. I can see the manufacturer's
point, especially when the HP is dialed way up from an already-high point, that
such an aftermarket part could and quite possibly did, in fact, contribute to
the issue.

YET

the DVD that comes with the truck specifically says something to the effect
that "after market products PERMANTANTLY change" something? and are
detectable.

AFAIK, when the original "factory" programming is restored, the dealer can't
(and in many cases, doesn't care to) tell. And since you're dialing _down_, not
up, I'd think you'd have a case even if they could tell ***BUT*** I'd suggest
you take the manufacturer info seriously and consider what _could_ happen before
you do anything.


I'm very disappointed in my mileage, thus far ( it's still under 200 miles
and driven only short distances 'in town' ..yeah, yeah, I know they take
time to break in ) and if it doesn't get a LOT better, I'll be an unhappy
camper ( it has a read-out of mileage, so I fret a lot more than I would if
I was just doing the math after a visit to the station )

FWIW, those on-board mileage indicators, IME, are only roughly accurate. I'd do
an actual MPG calculation and then, I'd expect things to get somewhat better
after break-in. Unfortunately, I don't think you're ever gonna get the MPG of
the older models in the newer ones, esp with factory "standard" (i.e., high HP,
"super-torque") tuning. I've heard, but have no experience with it, that
dealers can "de-tune" (ala the aftermarket programmers) for better mileage, but
??? I'd at least ask.

What brands of after market plug into the harness deals give full control?
not that I know enough to use such a thing the BullyDog seemed to let
you choose between stock and one other setting ... +50HP and 100 ft/lps over
stock

I've personally never owned a BullyDog, and based on friends' experiences with
them, I'm not likely to do so...take that, again as anecdotal as it is, for what
you will.

TC,
R

Economic Stimul-by-us
 

wrote in message
...
On Fri, 13 Mar 2009 07:50:04 -0700, "JT"
wrote:


"Larry L" wrote in message
...
In an effort to do our little bit to get the economy going we bought a
new
truck today.

The old one lasted 18++ years, 276,585 miles and is actually still going
strong although it's well past beat up and ugly

The new one is a Dodge 4 door short bed 4X4 with the Cummins diesel, it
has truly awesome power and I can't wait to hook up my trailer and head
over the pass.

However,

I feel very poor now :-(


Nice!

I'm guessing you got an amazing deal given the economic situation? They
have
some great offerings in the area, but I can't get my bride on board for a
new one although my '04 still purrs like a kitten.

As RD mentioned, the chips/programmers are really nice and will add major
hp
and additional fuel economy.

Not to be disagreeable, but no programmer that I'm aware of can add hp
_AND_
additional fuel economy - many can do either, but it's _OR_.

And FWIW, programming for even more HP in an '04, unless you're pulling a
D9 up
mountains or something, is wasting fuel and potential engine life (and
wearing
other drivetrain components unnecessarily, too). The "MORE HP!!!" craze
has hit
everything - that's why you still see older boats with low HP tuning on 6-
and
12-71's with about a bazillion hours still running strong and guys who
constantly bury the balls on their hopped-up 2000's having to have
rebuilds
after about 30 hours...OK, so not really just 30 hours, but...

TC,
R

TC,
R
With the programmers (like Bullydog) you can
really dial these motors. The only concern would be the potential of
voiding
the warranty.

Congrats,
JT


I don't personally have the Bullydog programmer (plan to soon), however have
two buddies that do. They are both getting a 1 to 2.5 mpg better depending
on what settings they are using. Hang a 12K lb. 5th wheel off the back with
two quads, gear, fuel, etc.. and you are well over 20K rolling down the
road. Some extra ponies make mountain passes much easier.

I have no interest in racing or having the fastest truck, I would only add
this option for pulling performance and fuel economy. Unfortunately my bride
drive the thing 99% of the time anyway. I drive a 35 mpg 4 banger due to my
100 mi. round trip commute!

Larry, a pretty good write up on the Bullydog PMT...
http://www.off-road.com/trucks4x4/ar....jsp?id=438382

YMMV,
JT

Economic Stimul-by-us
 

"Larry L" wrote in message
...
I'm very disappointed in my mileage, thus far ( it's still under 200
miles
and driven only short distances 'in town' ..yeah, yeah, I know they take
time to break in ) and if it doesn't get a LOT better, I'll be an unhappy
camper ( it has a read-out of mileage, so I fret a lot more than I would
if I was just doing the math after a visit to the station )

I'm not super familiar with the 6.7, however I noticed about a 1.5 mpg
increase when I hit around the 50 - 55K range in mileage. At this time, I'm
completely stock except an aftermarket Aero muffler and I'm running in the
21 - 21.5 mpg range empty at speeds between 65 - 70 mph.

I know what you mean about having the mpg readout. For the longest time, I
couldn't keep my eyes off it... I have found it to be fairly accurate. Early
on, it was about 1 mpg low, however has been pretty much right on when I
have checked the last several fill ups.

JT

Economic Stimul-by-us
 

On Mon, 16 Mar 2009 09:36:55 -0700, "JT" wrote:


wrote in message
.. .
On Fri, 13 Mar 2009 07:50:04 -0700, "JT"
wrote:


"Larry L" wrote in message
...
In an effort to do our little bit to get the economy going we bought a
new
truck today.

The old one lasted 18++ years, 276,585 miles and is actually still going
strong although it's well past beat up and ugly

The new one is a Dodge 4 door short bed 4X4 with the Cummins diesel, it
has truly awesome power and I can't wait to hook up my trailer and head
over the pass.

However,

I feel very poor now :-(


Nice!

I'm guessing you got an amazing deal given the economic situation? They
have
some great offerings in the area, but I can't get my bride on board for a
new one although my '04 still purrs like a kitten.

As RD mentioned, the chips/programmers are really nice and will add major
hp
and additional fuel economy.

Not to be disagreeable, but no programmer that I'm aware of can add hp
_AND_
additional fuel economy - many can do either, but it's _OR_.

And FWIW, programming for even more HP in an '04, unless you're pulling a
D9 up
mountains or something, is wasting fuel and potential engine life (and
wearing
other drivetrain components unnecessarily, too). The "MORE HP!!!" craze
has hit
everything - that's why you still see older boats with low HP tuning on 6-
and
12-71's with about a bazillion hours still running strong and guys who
constantly bury the balls on their hopped-up 2000's having to have
rebuilds
after about 30 hours...OK, so not really just 30 hours, but...

TC,
R

TC,
R
With the programmers (like Bullydog) you can
really dial these motors. The only concern would be the potential of
voiding
the warranty.

Congrats,
JT


I don't personally have the Bullydog programmer (plan to soon), however have
two buddies that do. They are both getting a 1 to 2.5 mpg better depending
on what settings they are using. Hang a 12K lb. 5th wheel off the back with
two quads, gear, fuel, etc.. and you are well over 20K rolling down the
road. Some extra ponies make mountain passes much easier.

I have no interest in racing or having the fastest truck, I would only add
this option for pulling performance and fuel economy. Unfortunately my bride
drive the thing 99% of the time anyway. I drive a 35 mpg 4 banger due to my
100 mi. round trip commute!

Larry, a pretty good write up on the Bullydog PMT...
http://www.off-road.com/trucks4x4/ar....jsp?id=438382

I'd say that should tell anyone and everyone all they need to know about
BullyDog programmers...

TC,
R
....of course, the kind of folks that drive trucks like the one pictured will
take one thing from it, and adults...well, the exact opposite...

YMMV,
JT