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Cutting spey lines.
Have any of you tried your hands at this ?
Ive been using a 14' Orvis rod which has a somewhat soft action but is a bit heavy, and recently got my hands on a new Powell 1409. This is lighter but also faster so I was wondering if I should start dissecting my line (Rio windcutter) removing 6-12" at a time until the action feels better. |
Cutting spey lines.
That is a pretty radical solution. Do you know the line weight recommended
for the rod, and the weight of the line? If you do, you can covert these into grams, and see what portion of the line would equal the recommended grams for the rod. Rio publishes all the specs for it's spey lines on its web site. "Svend Tang-Petersen" wrote in message ... Have any of you tried your hands at this ? Ive been using a 14' Orvis rod which has a somewhat soft action but is a bit heavy, and recently got my hands on a new Powell 1409. This is lighter but also faster so I was wondering if I should start dissecting my line (Rio windcutter) removing 6-12" at a time until the action feels better. --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.556 / Virus Database: 348 - Release Date: 12/26/2003 |
Cutting spey lines.
On Tue, 30 Dec 2003 14:53:45 -0800, Svend Tang-Petersen
wrote: Have any of you tried your hands at this ? Ive been using a 14' Orvis rod which has a somewhat soft action but is a bit heavy, and recently got my hands on a new Powell 1409. This is lighter but also faster so I was wondering if I should start dissecting my line (Rio windcutter) removing 6-12" at a time until the action feels better. Nope, don't take that approach at all. Two basic problems - spey lines, underhand shooting heads, Skagit lines, DT lines, long bellied lines, short bellied lines, and whatever other kind of lines intended for use on two handed rods have no uniform rating system. Unless you know a particular line works on a particular rod, your guess is as good as anyone else's. Never cut before you have gone through some exhaustive testing on the waters you intend to fish with it. Problem No. 2 is related to the Windcutter floater itself. Rio's long-winded rating system is very confusing if you're new to it. The WC 9/10/11 is really a 10 wt. with a grain weight of 650 spread over a 54.5 foot head (compare this with the AFTMA rating of 280 grains over 30' for a regular 10 wt.). The bulk of this weight resides in the rearmost 20' section of the head with the tip section being quite light. A slow rod might be able to cast only 40' of a WC but a faster rod of the same rating will need the whole head out of the guides to get a decent load. Slow rods also can benefit from a lot of top hand in the power stroke but faster rods need a crisper, underhand stroke and a higher stop. Add all of this together and your problem may be more complex than a bit off the tip will cure. I take it you Orvis is the TLS 14' - 9 wt. Correct? I have cast the 14' - 9wt. Orvis Clearwater (which I believe is the same blank assembled off-shore) but not the Powell. The Orvis worked fine with an Airflo Delta 9/10 so it'll be OK with the WC 9/10/11 as well. Both it and the Powell should manage a 9/10/11 OK. Rio, on its site, provides the line recommendations for the Orivs but doesn't mention the Powell. I'd try the Powell with the entire head outside of the guides to see if it loads OK. If the full WC is too light, then I'd suggest the Airflo Delta Long 9/10 (preferred) or the Rio Midspey 9/10. If it's too heavy, then you're better off taking a 10' section out of the middle step of the Windcutter (starts at 15' from the tip) then creating a set of loops so you can join it together for the Orvis, but use just the tip and belly for the Powell. The Windcutter multi-tip version has these two loop points in this section so, not only can the total grain weight of the head be adjusted, but the length can also be modified to accomodate some of the Skagit and Scandinavian type of casts that rely on shorter lines to work. I like the multi-tip WC for this reason but I wouldn't touch a WC floater with a barge pole. If you plan on going out for another line and you don't want to spring for a multi-tip version (and I do recommend them), then consider the Airflo Delta instead. Its taper is less radical than the Windcutter so it's a more fishable line over a broader range of distances and the amount you cast can be easily adjusted, depending on the needs of the rod. For example, when casting my 9 wt. Daiwa using a Delta 9/10, I pull the end of the head down into the guides to my top hand, but when I cast the same line on my Trilogy 9/10, I leave the entire head outside of the guides. The Trilogy needs a bit more of a load so this adjustment provides the adtional weight needed. However, this sort of adjustment is not as easily accomplished with a Windcutter since it compacts so much grain weight into the last 20'. Finding the sweet spot with a WC can be a major PITA as a consequence. Its Goldilocks zone is friggin' narrow. The Delta will also easily accept the use of 10' Polyleaders while the WC will totally wimp out and won't turn them over. The WC has to be cut back to make use of Polyleaders or other sinking tips. Unfortunately, most sales people in fly shops don't know their ass from their elbow when it comes to two-handers so they recommend the WC as some sort of "beginners" line (it's usually the only one they know) and can potentially screw their customer without meaning to. Unless you know what kind of fishing the client will be doing and you have first hand experience with the rod and the line, offering advice is a dodgy business. Most of us rely on the Rio spey line recommendations chart on their site but even that can be screwy. Their rating for my Daiwa 9 wt. was spot on but they were completely out to lunch on my Daiwa 11 wt. which makes we think they tried one rod in the series and guessed on the rest. It didn't fill me with confidence. Their guessing also cost me nearly a $100.00 in the purchase of the wrong line (and given the current exchange rate, that's getting damn close to a $100.00 in real money!!!!) What we spey anglers have done in response, is to organize spey claves across the land where we get together, not to fish, but to cast. We need time on the water with a line and a rod before we can be sure it'll do the job. At a spey clave, we get to try our hand at all sorts of combinations. Back in October, I tried a few Hardy Gems with their Mach 1 lines and didn't like them at all -- I thought they were high priced junk. I then tried the 14' 9/10 with a Delta 9/10 last month and, though I thought it better, I still didn't like it. I then tried it with a Delta Long 9/10 and fell madly in love with it. That extra 10' of head had transformed the rod into a lightweight cannon -- the other lines weren't working it as they were too light. As a consequence, the rod felt very heavy to cast as it had to be thrashed to get any distance. It's amazing sometimes, the difference a small adjustment can make. An overloaded rod is hard to cast well, while an underloaded rod needs to be thrashed to get distance. Both will feel heavy. In contrast, a well loaded rod will cast 90'+ with very little effort and will tolerate a broad range of styles and mistakes. Good luck Peter turn mailhot into hotmail to reply Visit The Streamer Page at http://www.mountaincable.net/~pcharl...ers/index.html |
Cutting spey lines.
Thanks Peter. |
Cutting spey lines.
Hi Svend,
I would also consider emailing Simon Gawesworth at Rio for some insight on your situation. -- Bill Kiene Kiene's Fly Shop Sacramento, CA, USA www.kiene.com "Svend Tang-Petersen" wrote in message ... Have any of you tried your hands at this ? Ive been using a 14' Orvis rod which has a somewhat soft action but is a bit heavy, and recently got my hands on a new Powell 1409. This is lighter but also faster so I was wondering if I should start dissecting my line (Rio windcutter) removing 6-12" at a time until the action feels better. |
Cutting spey lines.
On Fri, 02 Jan 2004 02:04:43 GMT, (Greg Pavlov)
wrote: On Wed, 31 Dec 2003 09:05:09 -0500, Peter Charles wrote: == Rant Mode On == Ya, and it's not even a good beginners line! Their marketing hype is based on the notion that the short, heavy belly will punch out some line despite whatever the beginner may do -- but it can also cause beaucoup problems if the rod isn't loading properly because of the amount of head beyond the guides isn't right for the rod. I'm getting a better sense of all this - maybe - but so far I like the Windcutter for the 11.5' Loop. I am going to muck around with it some more, to try to get a more conscious sense of how it handles short casts. My favorite "small" spey line for my lighter/shorter pseudo-spey rods is the Rio salmon/steelhead line. If your Loop is like my Loop, the fast, light tip will short cast a WC better than a standard spey rod. I found that even about 10' of my homemade shooting head loads the tip on my 8/9. I found the WC 9/10/11 worked great on my 9 wt. provided the entire head was out of the guides and provided I didn't put a fast sinking Polyleader on it. Pull half the rear belly into the guides and it sucked. I talked to people and exchanged posts with people on this subject and there's no consensus -- some agree with me and some have no problem with short casts. The difference may be the type of action of the rod. The Daiwas have the standard spey, stiff-tipped, progressive action while the Blues are more tippy. The Daiwas won't do much with a light load. Maybe at the next clave, I'll search out someone with a 7/8/9 and give it a go on the Blue. After all, the Blues are made for short heads -- the action is designed to have the butt energized more by the underhand casting motion and less by the grains of the line. A long belly would probably just collapse the tip on mine, while the same line on the Daiwa would just load it deeper and it would blow it into the next area code. A surprising number of GLers like that RIO S/AS line as it'll turnover heavy tips and it's long 65' belly packs a lot of grains for an overhead WF (I'm guessing at 600 for my WF-10-F). There's no problem finding the sweet spot on it. It won't blow long casts like a real spey line (front taper is too blunt and short -- the rest of the belly is too light) but it is tractable over a broad range of shorter casts. Too bad it isn't made anymore. I was using a WF-7-F S/AS on my Scott when we fished the Catt and, despite the Scott being a pretty crappy spey caster, I could still get into the running line on it. I might dredge my WFD-10 back out and try it as a traditional line with a light 15' tip on the end -- that'll give me an 80' head -- solves the iced up guides problem. Peter turn mailhot into hotmail to reply Visit The Streamer Page at http://www.mountaincable.net/~pcharl...ers/index.html |
Cutting spey lines.
On Fri, 02 Jan 2004 20:30:17 GMT, (Greg Pavlov)
wrote: On Thu, 01 Jan 2004 22:28:58 -0500, Peter Charles wrote: A surprising number of GLers like that RIO S/AS line as it'll turnover heavy tips and it's long 65' belly packs a lot of grains for an overhead WF (I'm guessing at 600 for my WF-10-F). There's no problem finding the sweet spot on it. It won't blow long casts like a real spey line (front taper is too blunt and short -- the rest of the belly is too light) but it is tractable over a broad range of shorter casts. Too bad it isn't made anymore. Are you sure ? It's in the latest catalog. GLers should like it because it casts far enough for most of the steelhead streams we fish, since most are in the 18-Mile Creek class. And with a rod like the Loop, which has oversized guides, you can shoot the line somewhat if you need to get it out a bit further. Must still be available then -- somebody on the Speyclave said it was discontinued. That's good then -- it's a very nice line and it works great for ordinary nymphing. Peter turn mailhot into hotmail to reply Visit The Streamer Page at http://www.mountaincable.net/~pcharl...ers/index.html |
Cutting spey lines.
Cutting Spey lines is easy. Filleting is the hard part.
TL MC |
Cutting spey lines.
On Fri, 2 Jan 2004 22:34:38 +0100, "Mike Connor"
wrote: Cutting Spey lines is easy. Filleting is the hard part. TL MC acetone - fillets real easy afterward Peter turn mailhot into hotmail to reply Visit The Streamer Page at http://www.mountaincable.net/~pcharl...ers/index.html |
Cutting spey lines.
Peter Charles wrote in
: On Fri, 2 Jan 2004 22:34:38 +0100, "Mike Connor" wrote: Cutting Spey lines is easy. Filleting is the hard part. TL MC acetone - fillets real easy afterward Peter I've found hot water does a pretty good job too! Steve (be careful dying lines fellas ) |
"Lines" for double handers (overhead) was Cutting spey lines.
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"Lines" for double handers (overhead) was Cutting spey lines.
"Stephen Welsh" schrieb im Newsbeitrag . 1.4... SNIP So what do you blokes use in the way of special (if any) lines for overhead casting these rods. (I've had a look at the spey pages etc ). SNIP Practically everybody I know uses various "heads", most made up from #12DT´s, some spliced up, others merely matched for length and weight. 45 feet is very popular ! ( You get two out of a "standard" DT!:)) TL MC |
"Lines" for double handers (overhead) was Cutting spey lines.
On 4 Jan 2004 21:31:39 GMT, Stephen Welsh
wrote: (Greg Pavlov) wrote in news:3ff4d01e.59194727 : My favorite "small" spey line for my lighter/shorter pseudo-spey rods is the Rio salmon/steelhead line. So what do you blokes use in the way of special (if any) lines for overhead casting these rods. (I've had a look at the spey pages etc ). I'm starting out with a DT ('cos I have one laying around) and will eventually make some heads once I've a handle on using it. Following some advice from Peter (ta Peter :), gleaning info from other posts (Greg), thinking about local conditions, the rod I picked up from the carriers on Christmas eve is a 10 wt Daiwa Lochmor X 14'6". Steve (Yet to cast it ... :( ...amazing how time slips away) The DT uncut will be next to useless as an overhead line though it will work OK with long line Spey technique. Almost all overhead work with two-handers is done with shooting heads. Your 10 wt. will probably overhead cast 500 to 650 grains quite nicely. The longer the head, the heavier you should go, so a 24' - 500 grain Rio Big Boy would work and so would an Airflo Expert 45' - 12 wt. T7 shooting head (640 grains). Both these lines would feel about the same on the load because of what I call the Wiggle - Stretch factor. No doubt about 30 or so of our local denizens have now conjured up the peeling off of Spandex from a wriggling, nubile nymph, but this is really all about trying to accelerate all parts of the shooting head at the same time. The longer the head, the harder this is to do. All fly lines stretch under tension and pretty well all backcasts are not perfectly straight so the stretch has to be taken up and the wiggles straigtened out before the tip accelerates at the same rate as the butt of the shooting head. As a reault, the average acceleration rate for a short head is higher than that of a long head as it's easier to overcome the Wiggle - Stretch of a short head vs. a long one. It's the old F=MA business for if you can't accelerate as fast, you have to add mass to end up at with same force. I'd recommend starting out with a couple of Airflo Expert 45' - 12 wt. heads plus some running line (about 100' feet). Use the underhand casting stroke shown in the Speypages Anderson and Morgensten video clips. A two-hander overhead cast is killed by too much top hand so the vertical drop of the underhand technique keeps this tendency under control. You need a very high, crisp, hard stop to generate distance with this rod, but very little power. Given a chance it will virtually cast itself and the 45' heads should manage 150' casts given enough running line. Notice on the video that the top hand elbow is kept close to the side -- that's the key. If you're throwing tailing loops, you're applying too much power unnecessarily. Have fun and let us know how you do. Peter turn mailhot into hotmail to reply Visit The Streamer Page at http://www.mountaincable.net/~pcharl...ers/index.html |
"Lines" for double handers (overhead) was Cutting spey lines.
On 4 Jan 2004 21:31:39 GMT, Stephen Welsh
wrote: (Greg Pavlov) wrote in news:3ff4d01e.59194727 : My favorite "small" spey line for my lighter/shorter pseudo-spey rods is the Rio salmon/steelhead line. So what do you blokes use in the way of special (if any) lines for overhead casting these rods. (I've had a look at the spey pages etc ). I'm starting out with a DT ('cos I have one laying around) and will eventually make some heads once I've a handle on using it. Following some advice from Peter (ta Peter :), gleaning info from other posts (Greg), thinking about local conditions, the rod I picked up from the carriers on Christmas eve is a 10 wt Daiwa Lochmor X 14'6". Steve (Yet to cast it ... :( ...amazing how time slips away) Steve Forgot a few things. I may be preaching to the choir so forgive me if this is old news but it wouldn't do to waltz in to this brave new world without some of this stuff: You've found www.speypages.com but have you also found the boards at www.sexyloops.co.uk and http://www.flyfishingforum.com/speyclave/? Both these boards have good discussions going on the technical issues of two-handers - Sexyloops can get especially technical at times - but there are local denizens lurking there that have a lot of experience tossing flies on the end of two-handers in the surf. Three names that comes to mind: "Maxg" who is a fellow countryman of yours and uses big rods in the surf, "Juro", the North American CND distributor, east coast striper guy, and originator of the Atlantis 1111 (11' - 11wt.) surf rod, and "2handthesalt" who is another east coast striper guy. The two-striper guys favour two-handers in the 11' to 12' range while Maxg likes the 15 footers. Your rod has a 10 wt. spey rating which works out to 12/13 wt. overhead so judge your line buying accordingly. You're best to work with grain weights rather than the AFTMA scale and remember that the longer the head, the heavier it needs to be. Juro described dealing with this issue on the Atlantis not that long ago on the flyfishingforum. Try and get your hands on the International Spey Casting Video put out by Rio. Most of it won't be pertinent but Leif Stavmo's demos of overhead and underhand casts are. Leif makes the important point that long casts on the two-hander take very little effort. Adding power just screws things up. The power stroke of the underhand cast is exactly the same as that of the overhead cast. I'm doing my damnedest to train in the underhand style because it works across the board. Also, it pays to learn the Scandinavian style of underhand casting, as there are times when there isn't sufficient room for an overhead backcast. Last week, the Grand was so high that at Caledonia, I was forced to stand on what little remained of the Gabion baskets above water. Having had some practice at their methods, I was able to manage as much as 90' on the double-Spey, using a very tiny D-Loop, without tangling with the baskets or the bank behind me. After that experience, I feel I can cast damn near anywhere. When it comes to shooting heads, the Scandinavian method is where it's at. Some of those boys are reported to have hit 180' or more on Spey casts. About distance - the distances I mention might sound incredulous to someone used to casting 30' or 40' but they're routine in the two-hander world. I normally overhead cast in the 130' range with exceptional casts running into the 140' and 150' range. When I measure these casts, I lop off a few feet to allow for the inevitable bends and squiggles in the line. The last time I hit 150', I had about 163' out but it wasn't straight as the crosswind put a bend in the line. Juro talks about routine 120' to 130' casts using factory lines on the 11' Atlantis and 150' casts with specialised rigs. Expect to cast over 100' within the first ten minutes or so of casting the big stick. To put it in perspective, most single-handed rod casters are happy with a maximum cast of 70' or 80' but when beginner Spey anglers undergo instruction, they *start* off with 70' to 80' casts. Watch those Speypages video on Anderson and Morgensten as that technique makes life with the two-hander oh so simple. Peter turn mailhot into hotmail to reply Visit The Streamer Page at http://www.mountaincable.net/~pcharl...ers/index.html |
"Lines" for double handers (overhead) was Cutting spey lines.
Peter Charles wrote in message . ..
On 4 Jan 2004 21:31:39 GMT, Stephen Welsh You've found www.speypages.com but have you also found the boards at www.sexyloops.co.uk and http://www.flyfishingforum.com/speyclave/? Both these boards have good discussions going on the technical issues of two-handers - Sexyloops can get especially technical at times - but there are local denizens lurking there that have a lot of experience tossing flies on the end of two-handers in the surf. Three names that comes to mind: "Maxg" who is a fellow countryman of yours and uses big rods in the surf, "Juro", the North American CND distributor, east coast striper guy, and originator of the Atlantis 1111 (11' - 11wt.) surf rod, and "2handthesalt" who is another east coast striper guy. The two-striper guys favour two-handers in the 11' to 12' range while Maxg likes the 15 footers. Thanks for that Peter, I'll look in on the board. Max (Max Garth) and I have crossed paths occasionally on local boards ... knew he was into big sticks but not the DHs ... should be able to get hold of him without too much trouble. It'll take me a day or two to absorb everything (getting over a week in Tassie - *yawn*) Thanks again for the advice chaps, Steve |
"Lines" for double handers (overhead) was Cutting spey lines.
Peter Charles wrote in
: Have fun and let us know how you do. Spooled up the 10 WT (turned out to be a WF afterall) and soon had that all off the reel (over grass) and mostly out of the rod tip. Managed to nail a couple of casts - talk about laid back ... suits me fine :-) As you say, it probably needs a 12+ WT to load it properly Having the 10 WT spooled allowed me try try it on the 8wt MPOS I'd suspected of being underrated (had been using 9wt 30ft heads that were perfect for the previous 8wt). Blasted the whole line out - noting a sweet spot (actually a length of line out of the tip) where the whole thing seemed effortless to cast. Using the heads I'd only been able to manage 70 feet or so on this rod. Says something about getting the loading right (and the crappy rod rating system) Now to rustle up some 12wts ... Steve |
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