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"the" movie ...years later ... review
Well, I tend to run a little behind, I admit.
Last night I finally gave into boredom to the point of watching a DVD of "A River Runs Through It" that was given to me several years ago. I had never seen it before, or read the book ( I have it too, a gift ) After years of hearing others blaming this movie for an upsurge in fly fishing fad I expected something entirely different ... relative to fly fishing. Honestly I didn't see a single thing that would make ME want to fly fish if I didn't already. And as for visiting Montana, this movie shows much of it's worst side, imho. Although not to the extent portrayed, at this point in time, Montana does have deep rooted "get drunk and fight for lack of anything else to do" cultural problems.... that are far less than appealing. There are also many 'geographical' irregularities in the movie ... distances covered by Model A in a blink that are a long drive even today, in reality. I'd give the movie both thumbs down Any Way .... I think that the FFing fad we went through either had it's roots elsewhere than "the movie" OR our culture is even more desperate for something real to cling to than even I believe it to be. |
"the" movie ...years later ... review
On 2009-12-17 14:51:40 -0500, Larry L said:
Well, I tend to run a little behind, I admit. Last night I finally gave into boredom to the point of watching a DVD of "A River Runs Through It" that was given to me several years ago. I had never seen it before, or read the book ( I have it too, a gift ) After years of hearing others blaming this movie for an upsurge in fly fishing fad I expected something entirely different ... relative to fly fishing. Honestly I didn't see a single thing that would make ME want to fly fish if I didn't already. And as for visiting Montana, this movie shows much of it's worst side, imho. Although not to the extent portrayed, at this point in time, Montana does have deep rooted "get drunk and fight for lack of anything else to do" cultural problems.... that are far less than appealing. There are also many 'geographical' irregularities in the movie ... distances covered by Model A in a blink that are a long drive even today, in reality. I'd give the movie both thumbs down Any Way .... I think that the FFing fad we went through either had it's roots elsewhere than "the movie" OR our culture is even more desperate for something real to cling to than even I believe it to be. I think the movie was just "timely". It came out when folks (read yuppies) had lots of money with nothing to spend it on. Flyfishing looked cool, so there was probably an influx in its popularity. But so was biking (especially mountain biking) and kayaking. Here's what Wikipedia says about the film: "The film fueled a rise in fly fishing's popularity, and while the fly fishing industry expanded in the five years following the film's release, many of these estimates were overstated" If folks "discovered" flyfishing because of the film in 1992, I'd bet that many of them are not *still* committed flyfishers. Not like you and me. d;o) Dave |
"the" movie ...years later ... review
On Dec 17, 3:07*pm, David LaCourse wrote:
On 2009-12-17 14:51:40 -0500, Larry L said: Well, I tend to run a little behind, I admit. Last night I finally gave into boredom to the point of watching a DVD of "A River Runs Through It" that was given to me several years ago. I had never seen it before, or read the book ( I have it too, a gift ) After years of hearing others blaming this movie for an upsurge in fly fishing fad I expected something entirely different ... relative to fly fishing. Honestly I didn't see a single thing that would make ME want to fly fish if I didn't already. * *And as for visiting Montana, this movie shows much of it's worst side, imho. * *Although not to the extent portrayed, at this point in time, Montana does have deep rooted "get drunk and fight for lack of anything else to do" cultural problems.... *that are far less than appealing. There are also many 'geographical' irregularities in the movie ... distances covered by Model A in a blink that are a long drive even today, in reality. * I'd give the movie both thumbs down Any Way .... I think that the FFing fad we went through either had it's roots elsewhere than "the movie" OR our culture is even more desperate for something real to cling to than even I believe it to be. I think the movie was just "timely". *It came out when folks (read yuppies) had lots of money with nothing to spend it on. *Flyfishing looked cool, so there was probably an influx in its popularity. *But so was biking (especially mountain biking) and kayaking. *Here's what Wikipedia says about the film: "The film fueled a rise in fly fishing's popularity, and while the fly fishing industry expanded in the five years following the film's release, many of these estimates were overstated" If folks "discovered" flyfishing because of the film in 1992, I'd bet that many of them are not *still* committed flyfishers. *Not like you and me. *d;o) Dave Maybe not, but they certainly "privatized" hundreds of miles of streams in the mid-Rockies and contributed to the "if you don't go through an outfitter, you will see little good water" problem. cheers oz, who wades wet, unless it is REALLY cold water |
"the" movie ...years later ... review
"MajorOz" wrote in message ... On Dec 17, 3:07 pm, David LaCourse wrote: On 2009-12-17 14:51:40 -0500, Larry L said: Well, I tend to run a little behind, I admit. Last night I finally gave into boredom to the point of watching a DVD of "A River Runs Through It" that was given to me several years ago. I had never seen it before, or read the book ( I have it too, a gift ) After years of hearing others blaming this movie for an upsurge in fly fishing fad I expected something entirely different ... relative to fly fishing. Honestly I didn't see a single thing that would make ME want to fly fish if I didn't already. And as for visiting Montana, this movie shows much of it's worst side, imho. Although not to the extent portrayed, at this point in time, Montana does have deep rooted "get drunk and fight for lack of anything else to do" cultural problems.... that are far less than appealing. There are also many 'geographical' irregularities in the movie ... distances covered by Model A in a blink that are a long drive even today, in reality. I'd give the movie both thumbs down Any Way .... I think that the FFing fad we went through either had it's roots elsewhere than "the movie" OR our culture is even more desperate for something real to cling to than even I believe it to be. I think the movie was just "timely". It came out when folks (read yuppies) had lots of money with nothing to spend it on. Flyfishing looked cool, so there was probably an influx in its popularity. But so was biking (especially mountain biking) and kayaking. Here's what Wikipedia says about the film: "The film fueled a rise in fly fishing's popularity, and while the fly fishing industry expanded in the five years following the film's release, many of these estimates were overstated" If folks "discovered" flyfishing because of the film in 1992, I'd bet that many of them are not *still* committed flyfishers. Not like you and me. d;o) Dave Maybe not, but they certainly "privatized" hundreds of miles of streams in the mid-Rockies and contributed to the "if you don't go through an outfitter, you will see little good water" problem. cheers oz, who wades wet, unless it is REALLY cold water I've seen Giles bust ice wading wet.. john |
"the" movie ...years later ... review
On Dec 17, 11:51*am, Larry L wrote:
Well, I tend to run a little behind, I admit. Last night I finally gave into boredom to the point of watching a DVD of "A River Runs Through It" that was given to me several years ago. I had never seen it before, or read the book ( I have it too, a gift ) After years of hearing others blaming this movie for an upsurge in fly fishing fad I expected something entirely different ... relative to fly fishing. Honestly I didn't see a single thing that would make ME want to fly fish if I didn't already. * *And as for visiting Montana, this movie shows much of it's worst side, imho. * *Although not to the extent portrayed, at this point in time, Montana does have deep rooted "get drunk and fight for lack of anything else to do" cultural problems.... *that are far less than appealing. There are also many 'geographical' irregularities in the movie ... distances covered by Model A in a blink that are a long drive even today, in reality. * I'd give the movie both thumbs down Any Way .... I think that the FFing fad we went through either had it's roots elsewhere than "the movie" OR our culture is even more desperate for something real to cling to than even I believe it to be. Boy I don't know. I really liked the film and still can picture different scenes. Particularly the obsessed hunting quality of the journalist brother's fishing style. Also the portrayal of the famdamily and the bro's family, those ARE like some of the Western folk like when I came out from NJ. And the bar in Helena? dead on. Did the Lolo stuff put you off? Yeah there were scary people like that. Still probably are out on the edge. The edge of lawlessness? . . . reminded me of Park City when the main business was still the mine and the 30 cars of high grade shipped out each week. Where you could work the mine if you couldn't make tuition for a semester. Smoke a joint and no one cared, the ski lodge just barely making it and Ziggy (keep the knives away from him) Vet of the 10th Mountain division soaking out his old bones and gin in the communal tubs at the ex-whorehouse we all holed up in. Pop Jencks for ice cream, and a decent doc in the dispensary if he was sober. I loved that film and should rent it this weekend. It reflected accurately I feel the unapologetic West I fled to after each winter week of classes at BYU. And the truth be told, these people were not that different than the working people I grew up with, several of whom died too early like the one brother and a very few who went on to edamucated middle class respectability like the other brother. I have no idea why that movie was so popular with yuppies. I do know that Redford has a real feel for the inter-mountain West. I loved "downhill skier" too. Dave |
"the" movie ...years later ... review
On Dec 17, 9:06*pm, "John B" wrote:
"MajorOz" wrote in message ... On Dec 17, 3:07 pm, David LaCourse wrote: On 2009-12-17 14:51:40 -0500, Larry L said: Well, I tend to run a little behind, I admit. Last night I finally gave into boredom to the point of watching a DVD of "A River Runs Through It" that was given to me several years ago. I had never seen it before, or read the book ( I have it too, a gift ) After years of hearing others blaming this movie for an upsurge in fly fishing fad I expected something entirely different ... relative to fly fishing. Honestly I didn't see a single thing that would make ME want to fly fish if I didn't already. And as for visiting Montana, this movie shows much of it's worst side, imho. Although not to the extent portrayed, at this point in time, Montana does have deep rooted "get drunk and fight for lack of anything else to do" cultural problems.... that are far less than appealing. There are also many 'geographical' irregularities in the movie ... distances covered by Model A in a blink that are a long drive even today, in reality. I'd give the movie both thumbs down Any Way .... I think that the FFing fad we went through either had it's roots elsewhere than "the movie" OR our culture is even more desperate for something real to cling to than even I believe it to be.. I think the movie was just "timely". It came out when folks (read yuppies) had lots of money with nothing to spend it on. Flyfishing looked cool, so there was probably an influx in its popularity. But so was biking (especially mountain biking) and kayaking. Here's what Wikipedia says about the film: "The film fueled a rise in fly fishing's popularity, and while the fly fishing industry expanded in the five years following the film's release, many of these estimates were overstated" If folks "discovered" flyfishing because of the film in 1992, I'd bet that many of them are not *still* committed flyfishers. Not like you and me. d;o) Dave Maybe not, but they certainly "privatized" hundreds of miles of streams in the mid-Rockies and contributed to the "if you don't go through an outfitter, you will see little good water" problem. cheers oz, who wades wet, unless it is REALLY cold water I've seen Giles bust ice wading wet.. john- If you don't bust ice, you don't keep up with Miller. If you don't keep up with Miller, you don't get any beer. QED. giles. |
"the" movie ...years later ... review
On 17-Dec-2009, DaveS wrote: Boy I don't know. I really liked the film and still can picture different scenes. Particularly the obsessed hunting quality of the journalist brother's fishing style. Also the portrayal of the famdamily and the bro's family, those ARE like some of the Western folk like when I came out from NJ. And the bar in Helena? dead on. Did the Lolo stuff put you off? Yeah there were scary people like that. Still probably are out on the edge. The edge of lawlessness? . . . reminded me of Park City when the main business was still the mine and the 30 cars of high grade shipped out each week. Where you could work the mine if you couldn't make tuition for a semester. Smoke a joint and no one cared, the ski lodge just barely making it and Ziggy (keep the knives away from him) Vet of the 10th Mountain division soaking out his old bones and gin in the communal tubs at the ex-whorehouse we all holed up in. Pop Jencks for ice cream, and a decent doc in the dispensary if he was sober. I loved that film and should rent it this weekend. It reflected accurately I feel the unapologetic West I fled to after each winter week of classes at BYU. And the truth be told, these people were not that different than the working people I grew up with, several of whom died too early like the one brother and a very few who went on to edamucated middle class respectability like the other brother. I have no idea why that movie was so popular with yuppies. I do know that Redford has a real feel for the inter-mountain West. I loved "downhill skier" too. Dave Ditto to the above It was well directed , well photographed and great acting A good story as was the original Roger Ebert |
"the" movie ...years later ... review
On Dec 17, 9:27*pm, DaveS wrote:
On Dec 17, 11:51*am, Larry L wrote: Well, I tend to run a little behind, I admit. Last night I finally gave into boredom to the point of watching a DVD of "A River Runs Through It" that was given to me several years ago. I had never seen it before, or read the book ( I have it too, a gift ) After years of hearing others blaming this movie for an upsurge in fly fishing fad I expected something entirely different ... relative to fly fishing. Honestly I didn't see a single thing that would make ME want to fly fish if I didn't already. * *And as for visiting Montana, this movie shows much of it's worst side, imho. * *Although not to the extent portrayed, at this point in time, Montana does have deep rooted "get drunk and fight for lack of anything else to do" cultural problems.... *that are far less than appealing. There are also many 'geographical' irregularities in the movie ... distances covered by Model A in a blink that are a long drive even today, in reality. * I'd give the movie both thumbs down Any Way .... I think that the FFing fad we went through either had it's roots elsewhere than "the movie" OR our culture is even more desperate for something real to cling to than even I believe it to be. Boy I don't know. I really liked the film and still can picture different scenes. Particularly the obsessed hunting quality of the journalist brother's fishing style. Also the portrayal of the famdamily and the bro's family, *those ARE like some of the Western folk like when I came out from NJ. And the bar in Helena? dead on. Did the Lolo stuff put you off? Yeah there were scary people like that. Still probably are *out on the edge. The edge of lawlessness? . . . reminded me of Park City when the main business was still the mine and the 30 cars of high grade shipped out each week. Where you could work the mine if you couldn't make tuition for a semester. Smoke a joint and no one cared, the ski lodge just barely making it and Ziggy (keep the knives away from him) Vet of the 10th Mountain division soaking out his old bones and gin in the communal tubs at the ex-whorehouse we all holed up in. Pop Jencks for ice cream, and a decent doc in the dispensary if he was sober. *I loved that film and should rent it this weekend. It reflected accurately I feel the unapologetic West I fled to after each winter week of classes at BYU. And the truth be told, these people were not that different than the working people I grew up with, several of whom died too early like the one brother and a very few who went on to edamucated middle class respectability like the other brother. I have no idea why that movie was so popular with yuppies. I do know that Redford has a real feel for the inter-mountain West. I loved "downhill skier" too. Dave That movie was popular with yuppies because it was the time of yuppies. Post adolescent males have always been suckers for a good romance......and it was that in spades.....or even a bad one. Norman Maclean was not a prolific author but he had a keen sense of romance. He wrote a very good story and Redford made a very good movie out of it......notwithstanding the objections of a proud confessed sociopath. As for the abject nonsense about "the movie" ruining fly fishing by bringing hordes money dripping idiots out into the streams......well, abject nonsense is the stuff on which the bulk of human wisdom is built. Money dripping idiots have been flitting about from one thing to another since time immemorial. Anybody here ever read Fitzgerald? Twain? Hemingway? Shakespeare? Chaucer? You want someone with a real feel for the west, try DeVoto. giles |
"the" movie ...years later ... review
On Dec 17, 9:12*pm, Giles wrote:
On Dec 17, 9:27*pm, DaveS wrote: On Dec 17, 11:51*am, Larry L wrote: Well, I tend to run a little behind, I admit. Last night I finally gave into boredom to the point of watching a DVD of "A River Runs Through It" that was given to me several years ago. I had never seen it before, or read the book ( I have it too, a gift ) After years of hearing others blaming this movie for an upsurge in fly fishing fad I expected something entirely different ... relative to fly fishing. Honestly I didn't see a single thing that would make ME want to fly fish if I didn't already. * *And as for visiting Montana, this movie shows much of it's worst side, imho. * *Although not to the extent portrayed, at this point in time, Montana does have deep rooted "get drunk and fight for lack of anything else to do" cultural problems.... *that are far less than appealing. There are also many 'geographical' irregularities in the movie ... distances covered by Model A in a blink that are a long drive even today, in reality. * I'd give the movie both thumbs down Any Way .... I think that the FFing fad we went through either had it's roots elsewhere than "the movie" OR our culture is even more desperate for something real to cling to than even I believe it to be.. Boy I don't know. I really liked the film and still can picture different scenes. Particularly the obsessed hunting quality of the journalist brother's fishing style. Also the portrayal of the famdamily and the bro's family, *those ARE like some of the Western folk like when I came out from NJ. And the bar in Helena? dead on. Did the Lolo stuff put you off? Yeah there were scary people like that. Still probably are *out on the edge. The edge of lawlessness? . . . reminded me of Park City when the main business was still the mine and the 30 cars of high grade shipped out each week. Where you could work the mine if you couldn't make tuition for a semester. Smoke a joint and no one cared, the ski lodge just barely making it and Ziggy (keep the knives away from him) Vet of the 10th Mountain division soaking out his old bones and gin in the communal tubs at the ex-whorehouse we all holed up in. Pop Jencks for ice cream, and a decent doc in the dispensary if he was sober. *I loved that film and should rent it this weekend. It reflected accurately I feel the unapologetic West I fled to after each winter week of classes at BYU. And the truth be told, these people were not that different than the working people I grew up with, several of whom died too early like the one brother and a very few who went on to edamucated middle class respectability like the other brother. I have no idea why that movie was so popular with yuppies. I do know that Redford has a real feel for the inter-mountain West. I loved "downhill skier" too. Dave That movie was popular with yuppies because it was the time of yuppies. *Post adolescent males have always been suckers for a good romance......and it was that in spades.....or even a bad one. *Norman Maclean was not a prolific author but he had a keen sense of romance. He wrote a very good story and Redford made a very good movie out of it......notwithstanding the objections of a proud confessed sociopath. As for the abject nonsense about "the movie" ruining fly fishing by bringing hordes money dripping idiots out into the streams......well, abject nonsense is the stuff on which the bulk of human wisdom is built. *Money dripping idiots have been flitting about from one thing to another since time immemorial. *Anybody here ever read Fitzgerald? Twain? *Hemingway? *Shakespeare? *Chaucer? You want someone with a real feel for the west, try DeVoto. giles- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - We've agreed on this before, DeVoto d' man. Way ahead of his time. I understand that the Southesk collection of that Scotsman Earl (who Devoto speaks of when he writes about the Fur companies) has been purchased by the Royal Alberta Museaum. This stuff was collected on the Northern Plains in the 1850s and has not been shown in North America before. DeVoto got some unique and early insights from the artist that traveled with the Earl including evidence of the transformation of some Eastern tribes, into plains horse people. (Lennie lenape) Dave |
"the" movie ...years later ... review
"DaveS" wrote in message ... On Dec 17, 9:12 pm, Giles wrote: On Dec 17, 9:27 pm, DaveS wrote: On Dec 17, 11:51 am, Larry L wrote: Well, I tend to run a little behind, I admit. Last night I finally gave into boredom to the point of watching a DVD of "A River Runs Through It" that was given to me several years ago. I had never seen it before, or read the book ( I have it too, a gift ) After years of hearing others blaming this movie for an upsurge in fly fishing fad I expected something entirely different ... relative to fly fishing. Honestly I didn't see a single thing that would make ME want to fly fish if I didn't already. And as for visiting Montana, this movie shows much of it's worst side, imho. Although not to the extent portrayed, at this point in time, Montana does have deep rooted "get drunk and fight for lack of anything else to do" cultural problems.... that are far less than appealing. There are also many 'geographical' irregularities in the movie ... distances covered by Model A in a blink that are a long drive even today, in reality. I'd give the movie both thumbs down Any Way .... I think that the FFing fad we went through either had it's roots elsewhere than "the movie" OR our culture is even more desperate for something real to cling to than even I believe it to be. Boy I don't know. I really liked the film and still can picture different scenes. Particularly the obsessed hunting quality of the journalist brother's fishing style. Also the portrayal of the famdamily and the bro's family, those ARE like some of the Western folk like when I came out from NJ. And the bar in Helena? dead on. Did the Lolo stuff put you off? Yeah there were scary people like that. Still probably are out on the edge. The edge of lawlessness? . . . reminded me of Park City when the main business was still the mine and the 30 cars of high grade shipped out each week. Where you could work the mine if you couldn't make tuition for a semester. Smoke a joint and no one cared, the ski lodge just barely making it and Ziggy (keep the knives away from him) Vet of the 10th Mountain division soaking out his old bones and gin in the communal tubs at the ex-whorehouse we all holed up in. Pop Jencks for ice cream, and a decent doc in the dispensary if he was sober. I loved that film and should rent it this weekend. It reflected accurately I feel the unapologetic West I fled to after each winter week of classes at BYU. And the truth be told, these people were not that different than the working people I grew up with, several of whom died too early like the one brother and a very few who went on to edamucated middle class respectability like the other brother. I have no idea why that movie was so popular with yuppies. I do know that Redford has a real feel for the inter-mountain West. I loved "downhill skier" too. Dave That movie was popular with yuppies because it was the time of yuppies. Post adolescent males have always been suckers for a good romance......and it was that in spades.....or even a bad one. Norman Maclean was not a prolific author but he had a keen sense of romance. He wrote a very good story and Redford made a very good movie out of it......notwithstanding the objections of a proud confessed sociopath. As for the abject nonsense about "the movie" ruining fly fishing by bringing hordes money dripping idiots out into the streams......well, abject nonsense is the stuff on which the bulk of human wisdom is built. Money dripping idiots have been flitting about from one thing to another since time immemorial. Anybody here ever read Fitzgerald? Twain? Hemingway? Shakespeare? Chaucer? You want someone with a real feel for the west, try DeVoto. giles- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - We've agreed on this before, DeVoto d' man. Way ahead of his time. I understand that the Southesk collection of that Scotsman Earl (who Devoto speaks of when he writes about the Fur companies) has been purchased by the Royal Alberta Museaum. This stuff was collected on the Northern Plains in the 1850s and has not been shown in North America before. DeVoto got some unique and early insights from the artist that traveled with the Earl including evidence of the transformation of some Eastern tribes, into plains horse people. (Lennie lenape) Dave Hi all, Not heard of this movie here in Aust. I'm going to try any see if I can download this movie to watch. Don't know if you have "A River Somewhere" up your way. It is an Ozzie film done on a shoe string budget by a couple of ordinary fishermen who laugh in the face of pomp and ceremony and fish because they like to... and enjoy what is around them. There are 2 series with about 5-6 episodes in each. Well worth watching. Rob. |
"the" movie ...years later ... review
"DaveS" wrote I do know that Redford has a real feel for the inter-mountain West. I loved "downhill skier" too. Dave same here. beautifully filmed. i thought "jeremiah johnson" was spectacular. yfitons wayno |
"the" movie ...years later ... review
On Dec 18, 3:55*am, DaveS wrote:
On Dec 17, 9:12*pm, Giles wrote: On Dec 17, 9:27*pm, DaveS wrote: On Dec 17, 11:51*am, Larry L wrote: Well, I tend to run a little behind, I admit. Last night I finally gave into boredom to the point of watching a DVD of "A River Runs Through It" that was given to me several years ago.. I had never seen it before, or read the book ( I have it too, a gift ) After years of hearing others blaming this movie for an upsurge in fly fishing fad I expected something entirely different ... relative to fly fishing. Honestly I didn't see a single thing that would make ME want to fly fish if I didn't already. * *And as for visiting Montana, this movie shows much of it's worst side, imho. * *Although not to the extent portrayed, at this point in time, Montana does have deep rooted "get drunk and fight for lack of anything else to do" cultural problems.... *that are far less than appealing. There are also many 'geographical' irregularities in the movie ... distances covered by Model A in a blink that are a long drive even today, in reality. * I'd give the movie both thumbs down Any Way .... I think that the FFing fad we went through either had it's roots elsewhere than "the movie" OR our culture is even more desperate for something real to cling to than even I believe it to be. Boy I don't know. I really liked the film and still can picture different scenes. Particularly the obsessed hunting quality of the journalist brother's fishing style. Also the portrayal of the famdamily and the bro's family, *those ARE like some of the Western folk like when I came out from NJ. And the bar in Helena? dead on. Did the Lolo stuff put you off? Yeah there were scary people like that. Still probably are *out on the edge. The edge of lawlessness? . . . reminded me of Park City when the main business was still the mine and the 30 cars of high grade shipped out each week. Where you could work the mine if you couldn't make tuition for a semester. Smoke a joint and no one cared, the ski lodge just barely making it and Ziggy (keep the knives away from him) Vet of the 10th Mountain division soaking out his old bones and gin in the communal tubs at the ex-whorehouse we all holed up in. Pop Jencks for ice cream, and a decent doc in the dispensary if he was sober. *I loved that film and should rent it this weekend. It reflected accurately I feel the unapologetic West I fled to after each winter week of classes at BYU. And the truth be told, these people were not that different than the working people I grew up with, several of whom died too early like the one brother and a very few who went on to edamucated middle class respectability like the other brother. I have no idea why that movie was so popular with yuppies. I do know that Redford has a real feel for the inter-mountain West. I loved "downhill skier" too. Dave That movie was popular with yuppies because it was the time of yuppies. *Post adolescent males have always been suckers for a good romance......and it was that in spades.....or even a bad one. *Norman Maclean was not a prolific author but he had a keen sense of romance. He wrote a very good story and Redford made a very good movie out of it......notwithstanding the objections of a proud confessed sociopath. As for the abject nonsense about "the movie" ruining fly fishing by bringing hordes money dripping idiots out into the streams......well, abject nonsense is the stuff on which the bulk of human wisdom is built. *Money dripping idiots have been flitting about from one thing to another since time immemorial. *Anybody here ever read Fitzgerald? Twain? *Hemingway? *Shakespeare? *Chaucer? You want someone with a real feel for the west, try DeVoto. giles- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - We've agreed on this before, DeVoto d' man. Can't be helped.....it's bound happen from time to time despite our best efforts. :) Way ahead of his time. I understand that the Southesk collection of that Scotsman Earl (who Devoto speaks of when he writes about the Fur companies) has been purchased by the Royal Alberta Museaum. This stuff was collected on the Northern Plains in the 1850s and has not been shown in North America before. DeVoto got some unique and early insights from the artist that traveled with the Earl including evidence of the transformation of some Eastern tribes, into plains horse people. (Lennie lenape) The only work of DeVoto's I have at hand is "The Western Paradox: A Conservation Reader." A hasty perusal of the index (interrupted by several delicious forays into the body of the text) reveals no mention of Carnegie, let alone the artist who accompanied him. I don't recall Carnegie from any other of DeVoto's works I've encountered. The Royal Alberta Museum's website makes no reference to an artist on the trip that I can find. Even more surprising, Carnegie himself says nothing about an artist who accompanied him in the preface to his book, "Saskatchewan and the Rocky Mountains" (I haven't had time to search the whole volume) http://books.google.com/books?id=MR8...age&q=&f=false Moreover, in the preface he states: "As regards the illustrations, whether on separate pages or attached to the letterpress of the work, the greater number of these are derived from my own sketches and drawings; the exception entirely consisting in those which have been reproduced from photographs, or founded on them with some slight alteration. To the former class belong all, save one, of the illustrations of scenery, every example of which may be relied on as a truthful though imperfect portrayal of Nature, — notwithstanding the roughness of my drawings, and the marvellous improvement in all artistic qualities which they have sustained under Mr. Whymper's skilful hand. To the latter class must be referred the various representations of animals' heads, taken from skulls and stuffed specimens in my possession; also several relating to other objects—viz., Red River Fire-bags,—Cree Whip,—Edmonton Hunter's Dag,—Assiniboine Fire-bag, Knife-sheath, and Pipe, —all of which are engraved from excellent photographs by Mr. Rodgers, of Montrose ; and in addition to these the view of Minnclialia Falls, by Mr. Whitney, a St. Paul photographer, the only landscape for which my own pencil is not originally responsible. Most of the smaller and less elaborate illustrations belong to the former of these classes, being facsimiles, or nearly so, of pen-and- ink memoranda hastily sketched into my journal; the exceptions are as follows :—Buffalo-hide Line,— Whisky, —Snow-shoe and Skida,—sketches only recently prepared by me expressly for the present volume." The Mr. Whymper referred to seems likely to be Edward Whymper, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Whymper who visited the Canadian Rockies himself, 40 years or so after Carnegie, but I can't find anything that suggests that he was with Carnegie, and Carnegie's preface appears to suggest that Whymper's services were rendered after the fact. It isn't clear to me from the above text whether Mr. Rodgers was responsible for the excellent photographs or the engravings made from them but in either case, he too appears to have done his work in preparing the book for publications, not in situ, as it were. So, any idea who the artist was? giles |
"the" movie ...years later ... review
On Dec 17, 12:51*pm, Larry L wrote:
* I'd give the movie both thumbs down Read the book. I enjoyed both, but a good book is always much better than the movie made from it, even if the movie does it justice. Of course neither was _about_ flyfishing, flyfishing and the rivers upon which it was pursued were simply the cord that "ran through it". Jon. |
"the" movie ...years later ... review
On Dec 18, 10:38*am, Jon wrote:
On Dec 17, 12:51*pm, Larry L wrote: * I'd give the movie both thumbs down Read the book. *I enjoyed both, but a good book is always much better than the movie made from it, even if the movie does it justice. Of course neither was _about_ flyfishing, flyfishing and the rivers upon which it was pursued were simply the cord that "ran through it". Jon. McGuffin cheers oz |
"the" movie ...years later ... review
On Dec 18, 8:19*am, Giles wrote:
On Dec 18, 3:55*am, DaveS wrote: On Dec 17, 9:12*pm, Giles wrote: On Dec 17, 9:27*pm, DaveS wrote: On Dec 17, 11:51*am, Larry L wrote: Well, I tend to run a little behind, I admit. Last night I finally gave into boredom to the point of watching a DVD of "A River Runs Through It" that was given to me several years ago. I had never seen it before, or read the book ( I have it too, a gift ) After years of hearing others blaming this movie for an upsurge in fly fishing fad I expected something entirely different ... relative to fly fishing. Honestly I didn't see a single thing that would make ME want to fly fish if I didn't already. * *And as for visiting Montana, this movie shows much of it's worst side, imho. * *Although not to the extent portrayed, at this point in time, Montana does have deep rooted "get drunk and fight for lack of anything else to do" cultural problems.... *that are far less than appealing. There are also many 'geographical' irregularities in the movie .... distances covered by Model A in a blink that are a long drive even today, in reality. * I'd give the movie both thumbs down Any Way .... I think that the FFing fad we went through either had it's roots elsewhere than "the movie" OR our culture is even more desperate for something real to cling to than even I believe it to be. Boy I don't know. I really liked the film and still can picture different scenes. Particularly the obsessed hunting quality of the journalist brother's fishing style. Also the portrayal of the famdamily and the bro's family, *those ARE like some of the Western folk like when I came out from NJ. And the bar in Helena? dead on. Did the Lolo stuff put you off? Yeah there were scary people like that. Still probably are *out on the edge. The edge of lawlessness? . . . reminded me of Park City when the main business was still the mine and the 30 cars of high grade shipped out each week. Where you could work the mine if you couldn't make tuition for a semester. Smoke a joint and no one cared, the ski lodge just barely making it and Ziggy (keep the knives away from him) Vet of the 10th Mountain division soaking out his old bones and gin in the communal tubs at the ex-whorehouse we all holed up in. Pop Jencks for ice cream, and a decent doc in the dispensary if he was sober. *I loved that film and should rent it this weekend. It reflected accurately I feel the unapologetic West I fled to after each winter week of classes at BYU. And the truth be told, these people were not that different than the working people I grew up with, several of whom died too early like the one brother and a very few who went on to edamucated middle class respectability like the other brother. I have no idea why that movie was so popular with yuppies. I do know that Redford has a real feel for the inter-mountain West. I loved "downhill skier" too. Dave That movie was popular with yuppies because it was the time of yuppies. *Post adolescent males have always been suckers for a good romance......and it was that in spades.....or even a bad one. *Norman Maclean was not a prolific author but he had a keen sense of romance. He wrote a very good story and Redford made a very good movie out of it......notwithstanding the objections of a proud confessed sociopath.. As for the abject nonsense about "the movie" ruining fly fishing by bringing hordes money dripping idiots out into the streams......well, abject nonsense is the stuff on which the bulk of human wisdom is built. *Money dripping idiots have been flitting about from one thing to another since time immemorial. *Anybody here ever read Fitzgerald? Twain? *Hemingway? *Shakespeare? *Chaucer? You want someone with a real feel for the west, try DeVoto. giles- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - We've agreed on this before, DeVoto d' man. Can't be helped.....it's bound happen from time to time despite our best efforts. * * * *:) Way ahead of his time. I understand that the Southesk collection of that Scotsman Earl (who Devoto speaks of when he writes about the Fur companies) has been purchased by the Royal Alberta Museaum. This stuff was collected on the Northern Plains in the 1850s and has not been shown in North America before. DeVoto got some unique and early insights from the artist that traveled with the Earl including evidence of the transformation of some Eastern tribes, into plains horse people. (Lennie lenape) The only work of DeVoto's I have at hand is "The Western Paradox: A Conservation Reader." *A hasty perusal of the index (interrupted by several delicious forays into the body of the text) reveals no mention of Carnegie, let alone the artist who accompanied him. *I don't recall Carnegie from any other of DeVoto's works I've encountered. *The Royal Alberta Museum's website makes no reference to an artist on the trip that I can find. *Even more surprising, Carnegie himself says nothing about an artist who accompanied him in the preface to his book, "Saskatchewan and the Rocky Mountains" *(I haven't had time to search the whole volume) http://books.google.com/books?id=MR8...dq=inauthor:%2... Moreover, in the preface he states: "As regards the illustrations, whether on separate pages or attached to the letterpress of the work, the greater number of these are derived from my own sketches and drawings; the exception entirely consisting in those which have been reproduced from photographs, or founded on them with some slight alteration. To the former class belong all, save one, of the illustrations of scenery, every example of which may be relied on as a truthful though imperfect portrayal of Nature, — notwithstanding the roughness of my drawings, and the marvellous improvement in all artistic qualities which they have sustained under Mr. Whymper's skilful hand. To the latter class must be referred the various representations of animals' heads, taken from skulls and stuffed specimens in my possession; also several relating to other objects—viz., Red River Fire-bags,—Cree Whip,—Edmonton Hunter's Dag,—Assiniboine Fire-bag, Knife-sheath, and Pipe, —all of which are engraved from excellent photographs by Mr. Rodgers, of Montrose ; and in addition to these the view of Minnclialia Falls, by Mr. Whitney, a St. Paul photographer, the only landscape for which my own pencil is not originally responsible. Most of the smaller and less elaborate illustrations belong to the former of these classes, being facsimiles, or nearly so, of pen-and- ink memoranda hastily sketched into my journal; the exceptions are as follows :—Buffalo-hide Line,— Whisky, —Snow-shoe and Skida,—sketches only recently prepared by me expressly for the present volume." The Mr. Whymper referred to seems likely to be Edward Whymper, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Whymper who visited the Canadian Rockies himself, 40 years or so after Carnegie, but I can't find anything that suggests that he was with Carnegie, and Carnegie's preface appears to suggest that Whymper's services were rendered after the fact. It isn't clear to me from the above text whether Mr. Rodgers was responsible for the excellent photographs or the engravings made from them but in either case, he too appears to have done his work in preparing the book for publications, not in situ, as it were. So, any idea who the artist was? giles- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Sounds like we are talking about 2 different people, books etc.. but the Earl of Southesk, was James Carnegie so lets see if they tails connect. I was referring to Bernard DeVoto, the historian and writer, and in particular his 1947 book, "Across the Wide Missouri," focused on the period 1833-1838, and the expedition headed by Willian Drummond Stewart, who brought Alfred Jacob Miller an artist with him. The book contains 96 repros, some in color of contemporaneous paintings by Miller, Bodmer and Catlin. This is a page on Stewart, the "second son . . . of Sir George Steward, 17th. lord of Grandtully, fifth baronet of Murthly." http://www.3rd1000.com/history3/biography/wdstewart.htm` He went out with a Sublette pack train in 1833, went all over Mountain Man country, and even made it to the last trapper rendezvous in 1843. He was ex 6th Dragoon Guards and 15th Kings Hussars, at Waterloo etc. Ah hah! Apparently I mixed up William Drummond Stewart with James Carnegie, 9th Earl of Southesk who collected ethnological material during a hunting trip in 1859-1860 and salted the material away in GB until it was auctioned and the bulk acquired by the Royal Alberta Museum in 2006. http://www.royalalbertamuseum.ca/hum...s/collects.htm Keeping these damn minor British nobles straight is something I am not good at. Now lets see if we are talking about the same DeVoto: Bernard DeVoto (1897-1955) was a Utahn, Uof U, then Harvard then taught at Northwestern. He wrote "Across the Wide Missouri" in 1947, Pulitzer in '48. OK, I get it, "Western Paradox: a Conservation Reader," is a relatively new (?)collection and edit of DeVotos crusading essays on the fading West, published by Yale in 2001. Apparently very popular now. Great, we are at least talking about the same DeVoto. And talk about ahead of his time, yep for sure. Wallace Stegner sure talked him up and Stegner is/was a near God of the West. So, we are referencing two idff books. Mystery solved. Well, conclusion: I need to read "Paradox" and check out Whymper and you might check out "Across the Wide Missouri." The Alberta/Carnegie collection still looks incredible, the Blood women's dress alone is incredible, and the pix in "Across" offer lots. Dave |
"the" movie ...years later ... review
On Dec 17, 7:27*pm, DaveS wrote:
. Did the Lolo stuff put you off? Yeah there were scary people like that. Nothing really "put me off" ..... and nothing "turned me on" As a lover of both fly fishing and the Mountain West, I expected the latter .... given, as I said, the movies reputation for "causing" the fly fishing fad in the years after it came out ... I expected to be itching to go fishing in Montana after watching it ... I wasn't UM, a bit more.... I don't look back on my own drunken, drugging, days as anything even close to "romantic" ... I know too many that died, or otherwise wasted their lives, from that "romance" I don't dispute the accuracy of a story basically about such waste and death, I just don't see the reported appeal that would bring the masses charging to Montana, fry rods in hand. That story could have been set anywhere, ime, and been equally accurate .... and depressing because of that accuracy. |
"the" movie ...years later ... review
On Dec 18, 12:32 pm, DaveS wrote:
On Dec 18, 8:19 am, Giles wrote: Sounds like we are talking about 2 different people, books etc.. but the Earl of Southesk, was James Carnegie so lets see if they tails connect. James Carnegie was the 9th Earl of Southesk, to be more precise. The only 9th Earl of Southesk and the only Earl of Southesk who had anything to do with collecting the items in the Royal Alberta Museum Southesk Collection.....or so it would appear from the latter's website. Sounds like one and the same guy to me. I was referring to Bernard DeVoto, the historian and writer, I know who he is and I thought we had already agreed on that. and in particular his 1947 book, "Across the Wide Missouri," focused on the period 1833-1838, and the expedition headed by Willian Drummond Stewart, who brought Alfred Jacob Miller an artist with him. The book contains 96 repros, some in color of contemporaneous paintings by Miller, Bodmer and Catlin. This is a page on Stewart, the "second son . . . of Sir George Steward, 17th. lord of Grandtully, fifth baronet of Murthly." http://www.3rd1000.com/history3/biography/wdstewart.htm` He went out with a Sublette pack train in 1833, went all over Mountain Man country, and even made it to the last trapper rendezvous in 1843. He was ex 6th Dragoon Guards and 15th Kings Hussars, at Waterloo etc. Ah hah! Apparently I mixed up William Drummond Stewart with James Carnegie, 9th Earl of Southesk who collected ethnological material during a hunting trip in 1859-1860 and salted the material away in GB until it was auctioned and the bulk acquired by the Royal Alberta Museum in 2006. http://www.royalalbertamuseum.ca/hum...s/collects.htm Aha! Keeping these damn minor British nobles straight is something I am not good at. I'm not at all sure that earls are considered minor.....where they are taken seriously at all.....but a look at Carnegie's biographical sketch in Wikipedia suggests that keeping any of them straight is an exercise best left to those with nothing better to do and a strong predilection for self abuse. Now lets see if we are talking about the same DeVoto: Bernard DeVoto (1897-1955) was a Utahn, Uof U, then Harvard then taught at Northwestern. He wrote "Across the Wide Missouri" in 1947, Pulitzer in '48. Yep. Same guy. The only Bernard DeVoto I know of. OK, I get it, "Western Paradox: a Conservation Reader," is a relatively new (?)collection and edit of DeVotos crusading essays on the fading West, published by Yale in 2001. It's actually a great deal more than that. As the editors, Douglas Brinkley and Patricia Nelson Limerick, write in the introduction, "No one who reads Western Paradox--a conservationist manifesto broken off at DeVoto's death at age fifty-eight and published here for the first time--can possibly dismiss it as a hoary relic of a bygone era. That goes for the ten (also fifty years old) Harper's articles and columns included in this volume as well." And, personally, I think it isn't so much a lamentation on the "fading" west. I agree with DeVoto's assessment of the west that so many see as fading, it is not now and has never been anything but a rather simple-minded myth. The reality is much more interesting.....except to those addicted to half-witted romance, I guess. Apparently very popular now. Maybe. I wouldn't know. Great, we are at least talking about the same DeVoto. That's good. And talk about ahead of his time, yep for sure. Wallace Stegner sure talked him up and Stegner is/was a near God of the West. Stegner is worth studying. So, we are referencing two idff books. Well, YOU are referencing at least two.....and maybe more......I wouldn't know for sure. Mystery solved. So it seems. Well, conclusion: I need to read "Paradox" and check out Whymper and you might check out "Across the Wide Missouri." I've read it.....and "The Year of Decision" and "The Course of Empire" and most of his published work on Twain and many of his Harper's pieces and much else. The Alberta/Carnegie collection still looks incredible, the Blood women's dress alone is incredible, and the pix in "Across" offer lots. Yep. Good stuff. g. |
"the" movie ...years later ... review
On Dec 18, 12:32*pm, DaveS wrote:
I was referring to Bernard DeVoto, the historian and writer, and in particular his 1947 book, "Across the Wide Missouri," focused on the period 1833-1838, and the expedition headed by Willian Drummond Stewart, who brought Alfred Jacob Miller an artist with him. The book contains 96 repros, some in color of contemporaneous paintings by Miller, Bodmer and Catlin. This is a page on Stewart, the "second son . . . of Sir George Steward, 17th. lord of Grandtully, fifth baronet of Murthly." http://www.3rd1000.com/history3/biography/wdstewart.htm` I clicked that link. Got a page cannot be displayed error message. So, I still don't know anything about Alfred Jacob Miller or what DeVoto learned from him. I could do a little research and find out for myself, of course, but my first such endeavor today, while interesting and enlightening enough, didn't result in anything germain. Maybe a capsule report from you would help me to decide whether or not the matter is worth pursuing. Thanks. giles |
"the" movie ...years later ... review
On Dec 18, 1:22*pm, Giles wrote:
On Dec 18, 12:32*pm, DaveS wrote: I was referring to Bernard DeVoto, the historian and writer, and in particular his 1947 book, "Across the Wide Missouri," focused on the period 1833-1838, and the expedition headed by Willian Drummond Stewart, who brought Alfred Jacob Miller an artist with him. The book contains 96 repros, some in color of contemporaneous paintings by Miller, Bodmer and Catlin. This is a page on Stewart, the "second son . . . of Sir George Steward, 17th. lord of Grandtully, fifth baronet of Murthly." http://www.3rd1000.com/history3/biography/wdstewart.htm` I clicked that link. *Got a page cannot be displayed error message. Remove the extra character at the end of the URL, dumbass. |
"the" movie ...years later ... review
On Dec 18, 3:33*pm, " wrote:
On Dec 18, 1:22*pm, Giles wrote: On Dec 18, 12:32*pm, DaveS wrote: I was referring to Bernard DeVoto, the historian and writer, and in particular his 1947 book, "Across the Wide Missouri," focused on the period 1833-1838, and the expedition headed by Willian Drummond Stewart, who brought Alfred Jacob Miller an artist with him. The book contains 96 repros, some in color of contemporaneous paintings by Miller, Bodmer and Catlin. This is a page on Stewart, the "second son . . . of Sir George Steward, 17th. lord of Grandtully, fifth baronet of Murthly." http://www.3rd1000.com/history3/biography/wdstewart.htm` I clicked that link. *Got a page cannot be displayed error message. Remove the extra character at the end of the URL, dumbass. Why? Moron. g. |
"the" movie ...years later ... review
On 2009-12-18 16:50:53 -0500, Giles said:
On Dec 18, 3:33*pm, " wrote: On Dec 18, 1:22*pm, Giles wrote: On Dec 18, 12:32*pm, DaveS wrote: I was referring to Bernard DeVoto, the historian and writer, and in particular his 1947 book, "Across the Wide Missouri," focused on the period 1833-1838, and the expedition headed by Willian Drummond Stewart, who brought Alfred Jacob Miller an artist with him. The book contains 96 repros, some in color of contemporaneous paintings by Miller, Bodmer and Catlin. This is a page on Stewart, the "second son . . . of Sir George Steward, 17th. lord of Grandtully, fifth baronet of Murthly." http://www.3rd1000.com/history3/biography/wdstewart.htm` I clicked that link. *Got a page cannot be displayed error message. Remove the extra character at the end of the URL, dumbass. Why? He reached the site. I reached the site. YOU are the ****in' moron, dumbass. |
"the" movie ...years later ... review
On Dec 18, 4:03*pm, David LaCourse wrote:
On 2009-12-18 16:50:53 -0500, Giles said: On Dec 18, 3:33*pm, " wrote: On Dec 18, 1:22*pm, Giles wrote: On Dec 18, 12:32*pm, DaveS wrote: I was referring to Bernard DeVoto, the historian and writer, and in particular his 1947 book, "Across the Wide Missouri," focused on the period 1833-1838, and the expedition headed by Willian Drummond Stewart, who brought Alfred Jacob Miller an artist with him. The book contains 96 repros, some in color of contemporaneous paintings by Miller, Bodmer and Catlin. This is a page on Stewart, the "second son . . . of Sir George Steward, 17th. lord of Grandtully, fifth baronet of Murthly." http://www.3rd1000.com/history3/biography/wdstewart.htm` I clicked that link. *Got a page cannot be displayed error message. Remove the extra character at the end of the URL, dumbass. Why? He reached the site. How do you know that? I reached the site. Hm......you're suggesting I should believe you? YOU are the ****in' moron, dumbass. Oh? And why is that? g. |
"the" movie ...years later ... review
On Dec 18, 1:22*pm, Giles wrote:
On Dec 18, 12:32*pm, DaveS wrote: I was referring to Bernard DeVoto, the historian and writer, and in particular his 1947 book, "Across the Wide Missouri," focused on the period 1833-1838, and the expedition headed by Willian Drummond Stewart, who brought Alfred Jacob Miller an artist with him. The book contains 96 repros, some in color of contemporaneous paintings by Miller, Bodmer and Catlin. This is a page on Stewart, the "second son . . . of Sir George Steward, 17th. lord of Grandtully, fifth baronet of Murthly." http://www.3rd1000.com/history3/biography/wdstewart.htm` I clicked that link. *Got a page cannot be displayed error message. So, I still don't know anything about Alfred Jacob Miller or what DeVoto learned from him. *I could do a little research and find out for myself, of course, but my first such endeavor today, while interesting and enlightening enough, didn't result in anything germain. *Maybe a capsule report from you would help me to decide whether or not the matter is worth pursuing. Thanks. giles For example, he identifies the Lenni Lenapes as a group of East Coast Indians who did not vanish but transformed into plains people via their association with the EuroAmerican newcomer. IE another adaptation scenario/ alternate to the Cherokee? These determinations allow for an alternative "opposite side of the battle-line" interpret of the Frontier Wars. etc He spots the double re curve, composite bow in the paintings, Even til recently the North American indigenous horse peoples were not credited with this innovation. Standard opinion was that this kind of very powerful and maneuverable bow was the sole province of the Mongol Horde. Devoto raised all kinds of questions to a placid academic orthodoxy. DeVoto was a precursor of the best of the New Left historical analysis. He had a respect for artifact as well as words in presenting and interpreting the record. Dave |
"the" movie ...years later ... review
On Dec 18, 11:20*am, Larry L wrote:
On Dec 17, 7:27*pm, DaveS wrote: . Did the Lolo stuff put you off? Yeah there were scary people like that. Nothing really "put me off" ..... and nothing "turned me on" As a lover of both fly fishing and the Mountain West, I expected the latter .... given, as I said, the movies reputation for "causing" the fly fishing fad in the years after it came out *... I expected to be itching to go fishing in Montana after watching it ... I wasn't UM, a bit more.... I don't look back on my own drunken, drugging, days as anything even close to "romantic" ... I know too many that died, or otherwise wasted their lives, *from that "romance" * * I don't dispute the accuracy of a story basically about such waste and death, I just don't see the reported appeal that would bring the masses charging to Montana, fry rods in hand. * * *That story could have been set anywhere, ime, *and been equally accurate ... and depressing because of that accuracy. Well probably so Larry. Maybe told my part a little romantically but not much. I wasn't going up miles of mountain road snow/student car for drunken an drugging; I was going up there to work weekends. The tourons drank for fun. Locals had their own reasons. Its sometimes easy to miss community when its hard to see beyond the pathologies. OK enough heavy ****. Montana isn't for everyone, thank God. Ever been to Butte? Dave :+)) |
"the" movie ...years later ... review
On Dec 18, 1:50*pm, Giles wrote:
On Dec 18, 3:33*pm, " wrote: On Dec 18, 1:22*pm, Giles wrote: On Dec 18, 12:32*pm, DaveS wrote: I was referring to Bernard DeVoto, the historian and writer, and in particular his 1947 book, "Across the Wide Missouri," focused on the period 1833-1838, and the expedition headed by Willian Drummond Stewart, who brought Alfred Jacob Miller an artist with him. The book contains 96 repros, some in color of contemporaneous paintings by Miller, Bodmer and Catlin. This is a page on Stewart, the "second son . . . of Sir George Steward, 17th. lord of Grandtully, fifth baronet of Murthly." http://www.3rd1000.com/history3/biography/wdstewart.htm` I clicked that link. *Got a page cannot be displayed error message. Remove the extra character at the end of the URL, dumbass. Why? Moron. g. So you can read the text on the web site. Christ, you are one stupid ****. |
"the" movie ...years later ... review
On Dec 18, 11:05*pm, DaveS wrote:
On Dec 18, 1:22*pm, Giles wrote: On Dec 18, 12:32*pm, DaveS wrote: I was referring to Bernard DeVoto, the historian and writer, and in particular his 1947 book, "Across the Wide Missouri," focused on the period 1833-1838, and the expedition headed by Willian Drummond Stewart, who brought Alfred Jacob Miller an artist with him. The book contains 96 repros, some in color of contemporaneous paintings by Miller, Bodmer and Catlin. This is a page on Stewart, the "second son . . . of Sir George Steward, 17th. lord of Grandtully, fifth baronet of Murthly." http://www.3rd1000.com/history3/biography/wdstewart.htm` I clicked that link. *Got a page cannot be displayed error message. So, I still don't know anything about Alfred Jacob Miller or what DeVoto learned from him. *I could do a little research and find out for myself, of course, but my first such endeavor today, while interesting and enlightening enough, didn't result in anything germain. *Maybe a capsule report from you would help me to decide whether or not the matter is worth pursuing. Thanks. giles For example, he identifies the Lenni Lenapes as a group of East Coast Indians who did not vanish but transformed into plains people via their association with the EuroAmerican newcomer. IE another adaptation scenario/ alternate to the Cherokee? These determinations allow for an alternative "opposite side of the battle-line" interpret of the Frontier Wars. etc He spots the double re curve, composite bow in the paintings, Even til recently the North American indigenous horse peoples were not credited with this innovation. Standard opinion was that this kind of very powerful and maneuverable bow was the sole province of the Mongol Horde. Devoto raised all kinds of questions to a placid academic orthodoxy. DeVoto was a precursor of the best of the New Left historical analysis. He had a respect for artifact as well as words in presenting and interpreting the record. Dave I remember seeing a representation of a bow such as you describe sometime in the not too distant past. In fact, I think it may have been within the context of a disucssion here in ROFF. I don't recall whether it was a representation of a painting or drawing, or if it was a photograph of a still extant artifact. In any case, it wasn't difficult to find others. A Google search on Alfred Jacob Miller turned up this page: http://www.artsales.com/ARTistory/Hi...ng_buffalo.htm Scroll down a ways and you'll find two items which appear to show such a bow. One of them is untitled, the one just below "The Surround." The central figure is about to loose an arrow from a bow whose lower limb looks like it may be recurved. Hardly conclusive, though. On the other hand, in the next painting, "Buffalo Bull a Grand Pawnee Warrior," the figure is holding a bow that is indisputably recurved. Interestingly, neither painting is by Miller.....both are credited to Catlin. Can't be certain, of course, but it seems unlikely that two hits (one of them iffy, but the other rock solid) this close toegether on the first try are inexplicable anomolies. I suspect other examples wouldn't be hard to come up with. So, a provisional conclusion that the plains Indians had recurved bows by the 1830s seems pretty reasonable. However, possession doesn't always equate to innovation. For example, we know for a fact that the plains Indians had horses (which they most certainly did not invent) long before the 1830s, and this implies that they almost certainly had steel knives and lance and arrow points (which they also did not invent and which, after all, can travel at the speed of a horse), albeit perhaps in severely limited quantities due to expense. Guns, too, though probably even fewer. Looking again at Catlin's painting of Buffalo Bull, the arrow points, the medallion, and the beadwork are all suggestive of imported modern industrial manufacture, not native craft. All of these items could have been brought in by Catlin's party, but they could also have filtered in via other means at any time in the previous couple of centuries. And the same is of course true for the bow, and if not for this particular bow, then at least for its design. Very well, but the known existence of centuries old trade routes and at least occasional contact with outsiders who could have brought in innovative technologies doesn't necessarily preclude local invention either, right? Right. The matter appears to remain unsettled for now (at least based on what I've been able to unearth so far), and the only way I can think of, just off the top of my head, to prove native invention and manufacture conclusively is to find such an artifact that can be carbon dated (or otherwise proved) to a date prior to the earliest possible direct or indirect contact with European manufactured goods.....which would be sometime in the 16th century, I suspect. In any event, while all of this is interesting in its own right, I think that native innovation as regards recurved bows, even if proved conculsively, doesn't do much to support the contention that Alfred Jacob Miller was instrumental in informing DeVoto's understanding of the real west. The picture is much bigger than that.....and Devoto was a much bigger man. As for your observations on DeVoto, included above, yeah, that's all correct, but he also had a great deal of respect for truth and for solid research applied to matters of interest and import, germain to whatever question might be under consideration, accompanied by contempt for cavilling nonsense. g. |
"the" movie ...years later ... review
On Dec 18, 9:40*pm, DaveS wrote:
Ever been to Butte? Dave :+)) Yeah ... Jared Diamond starts his book "Collapse" with a chapter on that area. You can't **** with Mother Nature for short term gains without paying a long term heavy price. |
"the" movie ...years later ... review
On Dec 19, 7:28*am, Giles wrote:
On Dec 18, 11:05*pm, DaveS wrote: On Dec 18, 1:22*pm, Giles wrote: On Dec 18, 12:32*pm, DaveS wrote: I was referring to Bernard DeVoto, the historian and writer, and in particular his 1947 book, "Across the Wide Missouri," focused on the period 1833-1838, and the expedition headed by Willian Drummond Stewart, who brought Alfred Jacob Miller an artist with him. The book contains 96 repros, some in color of contemporaneous paintings by Miller, Bodmer and Catlin. This is a page on Stewart, the "second son . . . of Sir George Steward, 17th. lord of Grandtully, fifth baronet of Murthly." http://www.3rd1000.com/history3/biography/wdstewart.htm` I clicked that link. *Got a page cannot be displayed error message. So, I still don't know anything about Alfred Jacob Miller or what DeVoto learned from him. *I could do a little research and find out for myself, of course, but my first such endeavor today, while interesting and enlightening enough, didn't result in anything germain. *Maybe a capsule report from you would help me to decide whether or not the matter is worth pursuing. Thanks. giles For example, he identifies the Lenni Lenapes as a group of East Coast Indians who did not vanish but transformed into plains people via their association with the EuroAmerican newcomer. IE another adaptation scenario/ alternate to the Cherokee? These determinations allow for an alternative "opposite side of the battle-line" interpret of the Frontier Wars. etc He spots the double re curve, composite bow in the paintings, Even til recently the North American indigenous horse peoples were not credited with this innovation. Standard opinion was that this kind of very powerful and maneuverable bow was the sole province of the Mongol Horde. Devoto raised all kinds of questions to a placid academic orthodoxy. DeVoto was a precursor of the best of the New Left historical analysis. He had a respect for artifact as well as words in presenting and interpreting the record. Dave I remember seeing a representation of a bow such as you describe sometime in the not too distant past. *In fact, I think it may have been within the context of a disucssion here in ROFF. *I don't recall whether it was a representation of a painting or drawing, or if it was a photograph of a still extant artifact. *In any case, it wasn't difficult to find others. *A Google search on Alfred Jacob Miller turned up this page: http://www.artsales.com/ARTistory/Hi...o/Catlin_Bodme... Scroll down a ways and you'll find two items which appear to show such a bow. *One of them is untitled, the one just below "The Surround." The central figure is about to loose an arrow from a bow whose lower limb looks like it may be recurved. *Hardly conclusive, though. *On the other hand, in the next painting, "Buffalo Bull a Grand Pawnee Warrior," the figure is holding a bow that is indisputably recurved. Interestingly, neither painting is by Miller.....both are credited to Catlin. *Can't be certain, of course, but it seems unlikely that two hits (one of them iffy, but the other rock solid) this close toegether on the first try are inexplicable anomolies. *I suspect other examples wouldn't be hard to come up with. So, a provisional conclusion that the plains Indians had recurved bows by the 1830s seems pretty reasonable. *However, possession doesn't always equate to innovation. *For example, we know for a fact that the plains Indians had horses (which they most certainly did not invent) long before the 1830s, and this implies that they almost certainly had steel knives and lance and arrow points (which they also did not invent and which, after all, can travel at the speed of a horse), albeit perhaps in severely limited quantities due to expense. *Guns, too, though probably even fewer. *Looking again at Catlin's painting of Buffalo Bull, the arrow points, the medallion, and the beadwork are all suggestive of imported modern industrial manufacture, not native craft. *All of these items could have been brought in by Catlin's party, but they could also have filtered in via other means at any time in the previous couple of centuries. *And the same is of course true for the bow, and if not for this particular bow, then at least for its design. Very well, but the known existence of centuries old trade routes and at least occasional contact with outsiders who could have brought in innovative technologies doesn't necessarily preclude local invention either, right? *Right. *The matter appears to remain unsettled for now (at least based on what I've been able to unearth so far), and the only way I can think of, just off the top of my head, to prove native invention and manufacture conclusively is to find such an artifact that can be carbon dated (or otherwise proved) to a date prior to the earliest possible direct or indirect contact with European manufactured goods.....which would be sometime in the 16th century, I suspect. In any event, while all of this is interesting in its own right, I think that native innovation as regards recurved bows, even if proved conculsively, doesn't do much to support the contention that Alfred Jacob Miller was instrumental in informing DeVoto's understanding of the real west. *The picture is much bigger than that.....and Devoto was a much bigger man. As for your observations on DeVoto, included above, yeah, that's all correct, but he also had a great deal of respect for truth and for solid research applied to matters of interest and import, germain to whatever question might be under consideration, accompanied by contempt for cavilling nonsense. g.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - There was a discussion of this a few years ago on ROFF. Seems i won a bet against the composite/recurve being exclusively Mongol. And as I recall (without offering footnotes for those requiring same), the origin of the composite bows was attributed to a native American group centered in the Yellowstone region, who manufactured these bows which were traded East and West along the Great Road. I forget the kind of wood they used (perhaps yew), or the glues, but I do remember that one of the laminates in the composite were strips of de-laminated Big Horn sheep horn. And again from memory, no footnotes offered ;+) the powerful short bows were particularly important for smashing an arrow thru the rib cage of a bison from a horse, while the riders torso was slung under the horses neck. The other key use was for killing Grizzly bears, which at that point were denizens of the plains. Associated with that discussion were some exchanges with a Roffian who had Delaware (Lenni Lenape) in his ancestry and shared something of their presence on the Southern Plains, My interest in the Lenni Lenapes ties to my NJ youth. Their transformation and survival was contra to the history we were taught in NJ. The Rocky Mountain fur trade Delawares came from reservations in the Ohio Valley, and my bro has said there was some Delaware presence in Wisconsin, although I don't know where that might be. Both he and I married into part Native blood. As to "cavilling nonsense," and some such, . . . never considered a career in communications I gather? I try to control my own inner Teuton, at least during the holidays. ;=) Dave |
"the" movie ...years later ... review
On Dec 19, 10:52*am, DaveS wrote:
On Dec 19, 7:28*am, Giles wrote: On Dec 18, 11:05*pm, DaveS wrote: On Dec 18, 1:22*pm, Giles wrote: On Dec 18, 12:32*pm, DaveS wrote: I was referring to Bernard DeVoto, the historian and writer, and in particular his 1947 book, "Across the Wide Missouri," focused on the period 1833-1838, and the expedition headed by Willian Drummond Stewart, who brought Alfred Jacob Miller an artist with him. The book contains 96 repros, some in color of contemporaneous paintings by Miller, Bodmer and Catlin. This is a page on Stewart, the "second son . . . of Sir George Steward, 17th. lord of Grandtully, fifth baronet of Murthly." http://www.3rd1000.com/history3/biography/wdstewart.htm` I clicked that link. *Got a page cannot be displayed error message. So, I still don't know anything about Alfred Jacob Miller or what DeVoto learned from him. *I could do a little research and find out for myself, of course, but my first such endeavor today, while interesting and enlightening enough, didn't result in anything germain. *Maybe a capsule report from you would help me to decide whether or not the matter is worth pursuing. Thanks. giles For example, he identifies the Lenni Lenapes as a group of East Coast Indians who did not vanish but transformed into plains people via their association with the EuroAmerican newcomer. IE another adaptation scenario/ alternate to the Cherokee? These determinations allow for an alternative "opposite side of the battle-line" interpret of the Frontier Wars. etc He spots the double re curve, composite bow in the paintings, Even til recently the North American indigenous horse peoples were not credited with this innovation. Standard opinion was that this kind of very powerful and maneuverable bow was the sole province of the Mongol Horde. Devoto raised all kinds of questions to a placid academic orthodoxy. DeVoto was a precursor of the best of the New Left historical analysis. He had a respect for artifact as well as words in presenting and interpreting the record. Dave I remember seeing a representation of a bow such as you describe sometime in the not too distant past. *In fact, I think it may have been within the context of a disucssion here in ROFF. *I don't recall whether it was a representation of a painting or drawing, or if it was a photograph of a still extant artifact. *In any case, it wasn't difficult to find others. *A Google search on Alfred Jacob Miller turned up this page: http://www.artsales.com/ARTistory/Hi...o/Catlin_Bodme... Scroll down a ways and you'll find two items which appear to show such a bow. *One of them is untitled, the one just below "The Surround." The central figure is about to loose an arrow from a bow whose lower limb looks like it may be recurved. *Hardly conclusive, though. *On the other hand, in the next painting, "Buffalo Bull a Grand Pawnee Warrior," the figure is holding a bow that is indisputably recurved. Interestingly, neither painting is by Miller.....both are credited to Catlin. *Can't be certain, of course, but it seems unlikely that two hits (one of them iffy, but the other rock solid) this close toegether on the first try are inexplicable anomolies. *I suspect other examples wouldn't be hard to come up with. So, a provisional conclusion that the plains Indians had recurved bows by the 1830s seems pretty reasonable. *However, possession doesn't always equate to innovation. *For example, we know for a fact that the plains Indians had horses (which they most certainly did not invent) long before the 1830s, and this implies that they almost certainly had steel knives and lance and arrow points (which they also did not invent and which, after all, can travel at the speed of a horse), albeit perhaps in severely limited quantities due to expense. *Guns, too, though probably even fewer. *Looking again at Catlin's painting of Buffalo Bull, the arrow points, the medallion, and the beadwork are all suggestive of imported modern industrial manufacture, not native craft. *All of these items could have been brought in by Catlin's party, but they could also have filtered in via other means at any time in the previous couple of centuries. *And the same is of course true for the bow, and if not for this particular bow, then at least for its design. Very well, but the known existence of centuries old trade routes and at least occasional contact with outsiders who could have brought in innovative technologies doesn't necessarily preclude local invention either, right? *Right. *The matter appears to remain unsettled for now (at least based on what I've been able to unearth so far), and the only way I can think of, just off the top of my head, to prove native invention and manufacture conclusively is to find such an artifact that can be carbon dated (or otherwise proved) to a date prior to the earliest possible direct or indirect contact with European manufactured goods.....which would be sometime in the 16th century, I suspect. In any event, while all of this is interesting in its own right, I think that native innovation as regards recurved bows, even if proved conculsively, doesn't do much to support the contention that Alfred Jacob Miller was instrumental in informing DeVoto's understanding of the real west. *The picture is much bigger than that.....and Devoto was a much bigger man. As for your observations on DeVoto, included above, yeah, that's all correct, but he also had a great deal of respect for truth and for solid research applied to matters of interest and import, germain to whatever question might be under consideration, accompanied by contempt for cavilling nonsense. g.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - There was a discussion of this a few years ago on ROFF. Seems i won a bet against the composite/recurve being exclusively Mongol. And as I recall (without offering footnotes for those requiring same), the origin of the composite bows was attributed to a native American group centered in the Yellowstone region, who manufactured these bows which were traded East and West along the Great Road. I forget the kind of wood they used (perhaps yew), or the glues, but I do remember that one of the laminates in the composite were strips of de-laminated Big Horn sheep horn. And again from memory, no footnotes offered ;+) the powerful short bows were particularly important for smashing an arrow thru the rib cage of a bison from a horse, while the riders torso was slung under the horses neck. The other key use was for killing Grizzly bears, which at that point were denizens of the plains. Associated with that discussion were some exchanges with a Roffian who had Delaware (Lenni Lenape) in his ancestry and shared something of their presence on the Southern Plains, My interest in the Lenni Lenapes ties to my NJ youth. Their transformation and survival was contra to the history we were taught in NJ. The Rocky Mountain fur trade Delawares came from reservations in the Ohio Valley, and my bro has said there was some Delaware presence in Wisconsin, although I don't know where that might be. Both he and I married into part Native blood. As to "cavilling nonsense," and some such, . . . *never considered a career in communications I gather? I try to control my own inner Teuton, at least during the holidays. ;=) Dave- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - The people who made these special bows were the Tukudika, the "Sheep Eaters," or in modern terms the Mountain Shoshonee. A pretty strange little group of high mountain dwellers for which there is much mythology. Their bows traded East and apparently influenced bow design out to the coast where most native groups had bow designs with some recurve and composites. This paper has a first person description of an all-horn bow building technique used by the Tukudika starting on page 14. http://www.windriverhistory.org/exhi...s/Dominick.pdf Dave |
"the" movie ...years later ... review
On Dec 19, 12:52*pm, DaveS wrote:
There was a discussion of this a few years ago on ROFF. Seems i won a bet against the composite/recurve being exclusively Mongol. And as I recall (without offering footnotes for those requiring same), the origin of the composite bows was attributed to a native American group centered in the Yellowstone region, who manufactured these bows which were traded East and West along the Great Road. I forget the kind of wood they used (perhaps yew), or the glues, but I do remember that one of the laminates in the composite were strips of de-laminated Big Horn sheep horn. And again from memory, no footnotes offered ;+) the powerful short bows were particularly important for smashing an arrow thru the rib cage of a bison from a horse, while the riders torso was slung under the horses neck. The other key use was for killing Grizzly bears, which at that point were denizens of the plains. Associated with that discussion were some exchanges with a Roffian who had Delaware (Lenni Lenape) in his ancestry and shared something of their presence on the Southern Plains, My interest in the Lenni Lenapes ties to my NJ youth. Their transformation and survival was contra to the history we were taught in NJ. The Rocky Mountain fur trade Delawares came from reservations in the Ohio Valley, and my bro has said there was some Delaware presence in Wisconsin, although I don't know where that might be. Both he and I married into part Native blood. As to "cavilling nonsense," and some such, . . . *never considered a career in communications I gather? I try to control my own inner Teuton, at least during the holidays. ;=) Dave I've spent nearly every waking moment of my life since early childhood in studying communications. No, I have never for a minute considered ruining the great joy of my life with a career. But then, that wasn't a serious question, was it? And you know that I don't have much trouble in making myself understood (when the mood strikes me) or in ferreting out what meager nuggets of meaning lurk in the dross that fills these pages......right? For example, there are probably some folks here who think this exchange has had something or other to do with Bernard DeVoto, James Carnegie and/or William Drummond Stewart and (or maybe not) Alfred Jacob Miller, recurved bows, art as an instructional device, plains Indians (some of whom may or may not have come from somewhere else), native inventiveness vs. commercial acquisition, the real west, etc. But we know who this has really been all about, don't we? g. anyone who is still confused about this need look no further than the quoted material included above. |
"the" movie ...years later ... review
On Dec 18, 1:20*pm, Larry L wrote:
On Dec 17, 7:27*pm, DaveS wrote: . Did the Lolo stuff put you off? Yeah there were scary people like that. Nothing really "put me off" ..... and nothing "turned me on" As a lover of both fly fishing and the Mountain West, I expected the latter .... given, as I said, the movies reputation for "causing" the fly fishing fad in the years after it came out *... I expected to be itching to go fishing in Montana after watching it ... I wasn't UM, a bit more.... I don't look back on my own drunken, drugging, days as anything even close to "romantic" ... I know too many that died, or otherwise wasted their lives, *from that "romance" * * I don't dispute the accuracy of a story basically about such waste and death, I just don't see the reported appeal that would bring the masses charging to Montana, fry rods in hand. * * *That story could have been set anywhere, ime, *and been equally accurate ... and depressing because of that accuracy. Maybe accuracy wasn't the sum total of the author's intent......or the film maker's. g. who dares to further suppose that it may not be the sum total of their accomplishment either. |
"the" movie ...years later ... review
On Dec 19, 3:15*pm, Giles wrote:
On Dec 19, 12:52*pm, DaveS wrote: There was a discussion of this a few years ago on ROFF. Seems i won a bet against the composite/recurve being exclusively Mongol. And as I recall (without offering footnotes for those requiring same), the origin of the composite bows was attributed to a native American group centered in the Yellowstone region, who manufactured these bows which were traded East and West along the Great Road. I forget the kind of wood they used (perhaps yew), or the glues, but I do remember that one of the laminates in the composite were strips of de-laminated Big Horn sheep horn. And again from memory, no footnotes offered ;+) the powerful short bows were particularly important for smashing an arrow thru the rib cage of a bison from a horse, while the riders torso was slung under the horses neck. The other key use was for killing Grizzly bears, which at that point were denizens of the plains. Associated with that discussion were some exchanges with a Roffian who had Delaware (Lenni Lenape) in his ancestry and shared something of their presence on the Southern Plains, My interest in the Lenni Lenapes ties to my NJ youth. Their transformation and survival was contra to the history we were taught in NJ. The Rocky Mountain fur trade Delawares came from reservations in the Ohio Valley, and my bro has said there was some Delaware presence in Wisconsin, although I don't know where that might be. Both he and I married into part Native blood. As to "cavilling nonsense," and some such, . . . *never considered a career in communications I gather? I try to control my own inner Teuton, at least during the holidays. ;=) Dave I've spent nearly every waking moment of my life since early childhood in studying communications. *No, I have never for a minute considered ruining the great joy of my life with a career. But then, that wasn't a serious question, was it? *And you know that I don't have much trouble in making myself understood (when the mood strikes me) or in ferreting out what meager nuggets of meaning lurk in the dross that fills these pages......right? For example, there are probably some folks here who think this exchange has had something or other to do with Bernard DeVoto, James Carnegie and/or William Drummond Stewart and (or maybe not) Alfred Jacob Miller, recurved bows, art as an instructional device, plains Indians (some of whom may or may not have come from somewhere else), native inventiveness vs. commercial acquisition, the real west, etc. But we know who this has really been all about, don't we? g. anyone who is still confused about this need look no further than the quoted material included above.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Ok well there it is. Merry Christmas. Dave |
"the" movie ...years later ... review
On Dec 19, 8:30*am, " wrote:
On Dec 18, 1:50*pm, Giles wrote: On Dec 18, 3:33*pm, " wrote: On Dec 18, 1:22*pm, Giles wrote: On Dec 18, 12:32*pm, DaveS wrote: I was referring to Bernard DeVoto, the historian and writer, and in particular his 1947 book, "Across the Wide Missouri," focused on the period 1833-1838, and the expedition headed by Willian Drummond Stewart, who brought Alfred Jacob Miller an artist with him. The book contains 96 repros, some in color of contemporaneous paintings by Miller, Bodmer and Catlin. This is a page on Stewart, the "second son . . . of Sir George Steward, 17th. lord of Grandtully, fifth baronet of Murthly." http://www.3rd1000.com/history3/biography/wdstewart.htm` I clicked that link. *Got a page cannot be displayed error message. Remove the extra character at the end of the URL, dumbass. Why? Moron. g. So you can read the text on the web site. Christ, you are one stupid ****. You think it's something I need to read? What's it about? g. |
"the" movie ...years later ... review
On Dec 19, 7:02*pm, DaveS wrote:
Ok well there it is. Merry Christmas. Dave Merry Christmas. g. |
"the" movie ...years later ... review
On Dec 19, 6:04*pm, Giles wrote:
On Dec 19, 8:30*am, " wrote: On Dec 18, 1:50*pm, Giles wrote: On Dec 18, 3:33*pm, " wrote: On Dec 18, 1:22*pm, Giles wrote: On Dec 18, 12:32*pm, DaveS wrote: I was referring to Bernard DeVoto, the historian and writer, and in particular his 1947 book, "Across the Wide Missouri," focused on the period 1833-1838, and the expedition headed by Willian Drummond Stewart, who brought Alfred Jacob Miller an artist with him. The book contains 96 repros, some in color of contemporaneous paintings by Miller, Bodmer and Catlin. This is a page on Stewart, the "second son . . . of Sir George Steward, 17th. lord of Grandtully, fifth baronet of Murthly." http://www.3rd1000.com/history3/biography/wdstewart.htm` I clicked that link. *Got a page cannot be displayed error message. Remove the extra character at the end of the URL, dumbass. Why? Moron. g. So you can read the text on the web site. Christ, you are one stupid ****. You think it's something I need to read? What's it about? g.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Only if you have more than a passing interest in the less known currents of N. Amer first people. Self Test: If you know off hand what Cahokia was or even Chaco Canyon you're probably interested. If nothing comes to mind, , , , not worth it. Its a fairly long, semi academic paper on the Tukudika, an extinct unique hermit tribe of mountain people, mostly non horse, who made mythical powerful bows of uncurled Bighorn, horn in the Yellowstone country. First part is boring classification stuff on ethnicity and language etc. The rest is very interesting per their bow, obsidian etc technologies. Dave |
"the" movie ...years later ... review
On Dec 20, 2:14*am, DaveS wrote:
On Dec 19, 6:04*pm, Giles wrote: On Dec 19, 8:30*am, " wrote: On Dec 18, 1:50*pm, Giles wrote: On Dec 18, 3:33*pm, " wrote: On Dec 18, 1:22*pm, Giles wrote: On Dec 18, 12:32*pm, DaveS wrote: I was referring to Bernard DeVoto, the historian and writer, and in particular his 1947 book, "Across the Wide Missouri," focused on the period 1833-1838, and the expedition headed by Willian Drummond Stewart, who brought Alfred Jacob Miller an artist with him. The book contains 96 repros, some in color of contemporaneous paintings by Miller, Bodmer and Catlin. This is a page on Stewart, the "second son . . . of Sir George Steward, 17th. lord of Grandtully, fifth baronet of Murthly." http://www.3rd1000.com/history3/biography/wdstewart.htm` I clicked that link. *Got a page cannot be displayed error message. Remove the extra character at the end of the URL, dumbass. Why? Moron. g. So you can read the text on the web site. Christ, you are one stupid ****. You think it's something I need to read? What's it about? g.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Only if you have more than a passing interest in the less known currents of N. Amer first people. Self Test: If you know off hand what Cahokia was or even Chaco Canyon you're probably interested. If nothing comes to mind, , , , not worth it. Its a fairly long, semi academic paper on the Tukudika, an extinct unique hermit tribe of mountain people, mostly non horse, who made mythical powerful bows of uncurled Bighorn, horn in the Yellowstone country. First part is boring classification stuff on ethnicity and language etc. The rest is very interesting per their bow, obsidian etc technologies. Dave Interesting. What shows up on my screen is a short biographical sketch of William Drummond Stewart. I've visited both Cahokia (about a 5-6 hour drive from here) and Chaco, as well as numerous other archeological sites here in Wisconsin (where 4,000 or so of an estimated 15,000-20,000 mounds built by what I believe is referred to as the "Mississippian Culture" remain extant.....the greatest concentration of such mounds anywhere in the world, if memory serves) and in other places scattered around the country. I've studied Native American cultures at the undergraduate level and currently have a dozen or so books on their history and various other aspects of their diverse cultures in my library.....and, yes, I have read them. While engaged in a work/study job at UW Stevens Point in central Wisconsin in the mid 80s, I shared office space with the campus Native American Center. I spent a lot of time talking to the some of folks there (not all of them.....things were pretty tense sometimes due to an often very heated controversy over native fishing rights).....got to know some of them pretty well. I've won a grand total of $17 (U.S.) in one visit each to three seperate First Nations owned and operated casinos. My name, I've been told, translates easily and recognisably into many Indian languages.....but I don't recall any of those I've heard. g. |
"the" movie ...years later ... review
On Dec 20, 4:17*am, Giles wrote:
On Dec 20, 2:14*am, DaveS wrote: On Dec 19, 6:04*pm, Giles wrote: On Dec 19, 8:30*am, " wrote: On Dec 18, 1:50*pm, Giles wrote: On Dec 18, 3:33*pm, " wrote: On Dec 18, 1:22*pm, Giles wrote: On Dec 18, 12:32*pm, DaveS wrote: I was referring to Bernard DeVoto, the historian and writer, and in particular his 1947 book, "Across the Wide Missouri," focused on the period 1833-1838, and the expedition headed by Willian Drummond Stewart, who brought Alfred Jacob Miller an artist with him.. The book contains 96 repros, some in color of contemporaneous paintings by Miller, Bodmer and Catlin. This is a page on Stewart, the "second son . . . of Sir George Steward, 17th. lord of Grandtully, fifth baronet of Murthly.." http://www.3rd1000.com/history3/biography/wdstewart.htm` I clicked that link. *Got a page cannot be displayed error message. Remove the extra character at the end of the URL, dumbass. Why? Moron. g. So you can read the text on the web site. Christ, you are one stupid ****. You think it's something I need to read? What's it about? g.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Only if you have more than a passing interest in the less known currents of N. Amer first people. Self Test: If you know off hand what Cahokia was or even Chaco Canyon you're probably interested. If nothing comes to mind, , , , not worth it. Its a fairly long, semi academic paper on the Tukudika, an extinct unique hermit tribe of mountain people, mostly non horse, who made mythical powerful bows of uncurled Bighorn, horn in the Yellowstone country. First part is boring classification stuff on ethnicity and language etc. The rest is very interesting per their bow, obsidian etc technologies. Dave Interesting. *What shows up on my screen is a short biographical sketch of William Drummond Stewart. I've visited both Cahokia (about a 5-6 hour drive from here) and Chaco, as well as numerous other archeological sites here in Wisconsin (where 4,000 or so of an estimated 15,000-20,000 mounds built by what I believe is referred to as the "Mississippian Culture" remain extant.....the greatest concentration of such mounds anywhere in the world, if memory serves) and in other places scattered around the country. *I've studied Native American cultures at the undergraduate level and currently have a dozen or so books on their history and various other aspects of their diverse cultures in my library.....and, yes, I have read them. *While engaged in a work/study job at UW Stevens Point in central Wisconsin in the mid 80s, I shared office space with the campus Native American Center. *I spent a lot of time talking to the some of folks there (not all of them.....things were pretty tense sometimes due to an often very heated controversy over native fishing rights).....got to know some of them pretty well. I've won a grand total of $17 (U.S.) in one visit each to three seperate First Nations owned and operated casinos. My name, I've been told, translates easily and recognisably into many Indian languages.....but I don't recall any of those I've heard. g.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Its this one. . . http://www.windriverhistory.org/exhi...sources/Domini... Cahokia, the urban end of the distribution, the Tukudika people = the hermit end ? . Dave |
"the" movie ...years later ... review
On Dec 20, 5:25*pm, DaveS wrote:
Its this one http://www.windriverhistory.org/exhi...s/Dominick.pdf Cahokia, the urban end of the distribution, the Tukudika people = the hermit end ? . Dave |
"the" movie ...years later ... review
On Dec 20, 7:29*pm, DaveS wrote:
On Dec 20, 5:25*pm, DaveS wrote: Its this one http://www.windriverhistory.org/exhi...sources/Domini... That one brings up a security alert. Cahokia, the urban end of the distribution, the Tukudika people = the *hermit end ? . Huh? g. |
"the" movie ...years later ... review
On Dec 20, 6:10*pm, Giles wrote:
On Dec 20, 7:29*pm, DaveS wrote: On Dec 20, 5:25*pm, DaveS wrote: Its this one http://www.windriverhistory.org/exhi...sources/Domini... That one brings up a security alert. Cahokia, the urban end of the distribution, the Tukudika people = the *hermit end ? . Huh? g. Yes, what a PITA. I get it sometimes, then not today with that addy. Apparently the structure of the site (windriverhistory) has changed. Im getting to a place with the addy below, where you can download the 1964 Dominick paper. The Wind River group now has lots of stuff on the Sheep eaters that I hadn't seen befor. http://www.windriverhistory.org/exhi...eepeaters.html Dave |
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