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Shad flies
Wayne if you want someone to test your new secret super fly send me a
couple. I don't charge for market tests. Just finished reading John McPhee's The Founding Fish and plan to catch the first shad going up the local Black River this April. Caught a bunch in cypress swamp up in Jeff Miller land last spring. But of course we used spinning gear and darts, with all the roots and trees it would be worse than casting in a mountain rododeme {?} covered creek. Tell wife hi--long time no see Joe McIntosh 8828 Olympic Lane Wilmington N.C. 28411 |
Shad flies
"Joe McIntosh" wrote in message Wayne if you want someone to test your new secret super fly send me a couple. I don't charge for market tests. Just finished reading John McPhee's The Founding Fish and plan to catch the first shad going up the local Black River this April. Joe, I'll try and remember to put a handfull of "the only shad fly you'll ever need" in the mail to you. Joe F. |
Shad flies
"Joe McIntosh" wrote in message ... Just finished reading John McPhee's The Founding Fish and plan to catch the first shad going up the local Black River this April. Joe I read that book as well just a couple weeks ago. What did you think of it. I was truly surprised at the part the humble American Shad played in our history. My eyes were really opened by McPhee's writings on catch and release vs. catch and eat. It was a point of view I hadn't given much though to Joe C. |
Shad flies
Joe, in a couple of weeks the Embry dam on the Rappahannock will be blown.
This will reopen the historical range of one of America's premier shad fisheries. In 5 years it may become the hottest shad river in the country and certainly its fine reputation for smallmouth will go ballistic with the resurgence of shad fingerlingings each year. When I get a few of these supersecretshadflys tied up I'll shoot you a couple. Don't show anybody. This thing isn't even shown around on the river unless there is a blood pact between the fishermen. Neophytes and casual visitors will never see one. But YOU, Joe, will have your very own!! Only because of blood exchanged on W....Creek a few years back! -- Wayne To Fish is Human...To Release Divine! "Joe McIntosh" wrote in message ... Wayne if you want someone to test your new secret super fly send me a couple. I don't charge for market tests. Just finished reading John McPhee's The Founding Fish and plan to catch the first shad going up the local Black River this April. Caught a bunch in cypress swamp up in Jeff Miller land last spring. But of course we used spinning gear and darts, with all the roots and trees it would be worse than casting in a mountain rododeme {?} covered creek. Tell wife hi--long time no see Joe McIntosh 8828 Olympic Lane Wilmington N.C. 28411 |
Shad flies
"Cornmuse" wrote:
"Joe McIntosh" wrote in message ... Just finished reading John McPhee's The Founding Fish and plan to catch the first shad going up the local Black River this April. Joe I read that book as well just a couple weeks ago. What did you think of it. I was truly surprised at the part the humble American Shad played in our history. My eyes were really opened by McPhee's writings on catch and release vs. catch and eat. It was a point of view I hadn't given much though to Joe C. I read that one too. I think it's chock full of good stuff, but I'm not fond of his C&R philosophy. I think C&R is like putting out a bird feeder. If you want a good look at them, you have to trick them. I'm sure the positives outweigh the negatives. I'm just as sure that McPhee chose to include the data that met with his opinion and ignored some other stuff. Chas remove fly fish to reply http://home.comcast.net/~chas.wade/w...ome.html-.html San Juan Pictures at: http://home.comcast.net/~chasepike/wsb/index.html |
Shad flies
Chas Wade wrote:
"Cornmuse" wrote: "Joe McIntosh" wrote Just finished reading John McPhee's The Founding Fish I read that book as well just a couple weeks ago. ...... My eyes were really opened by McPhee's writings on catch and release vs. catch and eat. It was a point of view I hadn't given much though to .......... I'm not fond of his C&R philosophy. I think C&R is like putting out a bird feeder. If you want a good look at them, you have to trick them. I'm sure the positives outweigh the negatives. I'm just as sure that McPhee chose to include the data that met with his opinion and ignored some other stuff. Can you nutshell his C&R views for those of us who haven't read the book? JR |
Shad flies
"Chas Wade" wrote in message news:PKKRb.173865$na.285095@attbi_s04... I think it's chock full of good stuff, but I'm not fond of his C&R philosophy. I think C&R is like putting out a bird feeder. If you want a good look at them, you have to trick them. I'm sure the positives outweigh the negatives. I'm just as sure that McPhee chose to include the data that met with his opinion and ignored some other stuff. Agreed. I can't see how C&R can be a bad thing, though I have to respect the throrough and coherent manner in which he stated his argument. It made me stop and think, but certainly not change my mind. I need to run some errands, but when I get back I will put together a summary of JM's points for discussion on this board. Joe C. |
The Founding Fish and Catch and Release
"Cornmuse" wrote in message ... "Chas Wade" wrote in message news:PKKRb.173865$na.285095@attbi_s04... I think it's chock full of good stuff, but I'm not fond of his C&R philosophy. I think C&R is like putting out a bird feeder. If you want a good look at them, you have to trick them. I'm sure the positives outweigh the negatives. I'm just as sure that McPhee chose to include the data that met with his opinion and ignored some other stuff. Agreed. I can't see how C&R can be a bad thing, though I have to respect the throrough and coherent manner in which he stated his argument. It made me stop and think, but certainly not change my mind. I need to run some errands, but when I get back I will put together a summary of JM's points for discussion on this board. Joe C. Okay, I'm back. In his book "The Founding Fish" McPhee goes to great lengths to quote quite a few resources regarding their opinions on catch and release. McPhee is quite firmly in the camp of catch and kill for food, and though I certainly don't want to put words in his mouth, it seems this comes from a belief that C&R is torturous to the fish. McPhee quotes from PETA, though also makes efforts to expose the rather ridiculous excesses of their philosophy. The book is excellently researched and a magnificent read for its historical placement of this important game fish. The most telling part regarding his C&R philosophy that I can quote is this: "To go a shade further than Bryant, catch-and-release fishing may be cruelty masqerading as political correctness. You can't help wondering what sorts of things people are doing today that seemed clearly right and good, yet will one day seem wrong and bad. If I were strolling through the annals of incorrectness - up past the invertible heroism of General Custer and on through the safaris of Dennis Finch-Hatton - I would expect to discern, out in the future, catch-and-release fishing. At its best it is what Thomas McGuane calls "the thrill of the release, of a trout darting from your opening hands or resting its weight very slightly in your palms underwater, then easing off." At its worst it is dire - an unintended failure. In the words of a shad biologist who works for a firm in Pennsylvania called Ecology III Environmental Services, "A lot of good Samaritans are killing fish." You watch a guy in Connecticut catch a shad in a boat. He stickes a finger in past a gill cover and it comes out the mouth. He lifts the shad to show its size and beauty, then lowers the shad into the water and removes his finger. Roughing gills is what biologists call "a pure death sign." Gill membranes are sensitive, elaborate, and easily broken. Whan they are damaged, a fish loses its ablity to extract oxygen from water. In a video called "Fishing for the American Shad," instructor John Punola reaches for a roe shad, saying, "Shad are very fragile. I can pick him up easily by the gills." Even the most adroit underwater release can turn loose a fish sick with stress, destined not to recover. And the more the catch-and-release angler fumbles - the more he manhandles fish up in air, twisting and yanking to disgorge the hook- the lower the chance of survival. Boyd Kynard: "That air-handling time, it's the worst, it's the hardest thing on them." |
The Founding Fish and Catch and Release
"Cornmuse" wrote:
... Just the right excerpts snipped ... Yes, that's the essence of his position. My complaint is that he doesn't mention any of the statistics we're used to about mortality of fish released. My favorite one of those is the fact that the cutthroat trout in the Yellowstone river in the park are caught an average of 9 times per year. Without thinking that thrugh too carefully, a mortality rate of 10% or higher would remove all the fish each year, and we know that's not happening. Another item he doesn't mention is that if we reduced the fishing enough to keep the population healthy but had a strict catch and kill regulation, many fewer people would fish, and the advocacy grouop defending the fish and their ecosystem would be tremendously reduced. I suspect that different species have different handling mortality. He's consentrated on shad, and I only know what he wrote about those fish. He only comments that mishandling is hard on the fish, a well understood fact. He doesn't mention any statistics about C&R mortality of shad. I'll give him the benifit of the doubt and suggest that there aren't any statistics yet. Chas remove fly fish to reply http://home.comcast.net/~chas.wade/w...ome.html-.html San Juan Pictures at: http://home.comcast.net/~chasepike/wsb/index.html |
The Founding Fish and Catch and Release
"Chas Wade" wrote in message news:k2ZRb.134850$5V2.682516@attbi_s53... "Cornmuse" wrote: ... Just the right excerpts snipped ... Yes, that's the essence of his position. My complaint is that he doesn't mention any of the statistics we're used to about mortality of fish released. My favorite one of those is the fact that the cutthroat trout in the Yellowstone river in the park are caught an average of 9 times per year. Without thinking that thrugh too carefully, a mortality rate of 10% or higher would remove all the fish each year, and we know that's not happening. Another item he doesn't mention is that if we reduced the fishing enough to keep the population healthy but had a strict catch and kill regulation, many fewer people would fish, and the advocacy grouop defending the fish and their ecosystem would be tremendously reduced. I suspect that different species have different handling mortality. He's consentrated on shad, and I only know what he wrote about those fish. He only comments that mishandling is hard on the fish, a well understood fact. He doesn't mention any statistics about C&R mortality of shad. I'll give him the benifit of the doubt and suggest that there aren't any statistics yet. I suspect that if Mr. McPhee had come armed with a boatload of statistics you'd have no trouble at all in dismissing them. :) I learned a long time ago that there is an enormous surplus of fools in this world. There are, in fact, so many that one can always find plenty on every side of every issue. Naturally, it follows that whatever stance I, for example, might take on any issue, there are innumerable fools who agree as well as an approximately equal number who disagree. I got a shiny new nickel say you can guess which group concerns me more. Wolfgang who, it will be apparent, is not afraid to take an occasional risk with one of his precious nickels. |
The Founding Fish and Catch and Release
Wolfgang wrote:
I learned a long time ago that there is an enormous surplus of fools in this world. That's quite apparent, Wolfgang, because you treat just about everyone on ROFF as though you believed they were fools. -- Cut "to the chase" for my email address. |
The Founding Fish and Catch and Release
"rw" wrote in message . .. Wolfgang wrote: I learned a long time ago that there is an enormous surplus of fools in this world. That's quite apparent, Wolfgang, because you treat just about everyone on ROFF as though you believed they were fools. Not true. But I understand that it must look that way to some people. Take, for example, someone who persists in responding to messages that he doesn't read. :) Wolfgang |
The Founding Fish and Catch and Release
"Wolfgang" wrote:
"rw" wrote in message ... Wolfgang wrote: I learned a long time ago that there is an enormous surplus of fools in this world. That's quite apparent, Wolfgang, because you treat just about everyone on ROFF as though you believed they were fools. Not true. But I understand that it must look that way to some people. Take, for example, someone who persists in responding to messages that he doesn't read. :) You're the fool. If you'd read my message before you responded to it, you'd have seen that I've been looking for statistics and haven't found them. When they show up I'll look at them and then make my decision. I have a lot of faith in Mr. McPhee, so I'm disapointed that he didn't back up his position. Since he chose anecdotal support instead of scientific support on this issue when he's fetteted out so much good scientific support for other parts of this book and many other books he's written, I suspect he has no scientific information to back his position. Even given that opinion, I didn't accuse him of being a fool or an ashole or a peta idiot. I left it that I doubted that he found any data, rather than accusing him of dishonesty. I hold to that position. Go back to your sandbox. Chas remove fly fish to reply http://home.comcast.net/~chas.wade/w...ome.html-.html San Juan Pictures at: http://home.comcast.net/~chasepike/wsb/index.html |
The Founding Fish and Catch and Release
"Chas Wade" wrote in message news:oJhSb.179035$I06.1852208@attbi_s01... You're the fool. The difference is that for me it's a job.......not a way of life. :) If you'd read my message before you responded to it, you'd have seen that I've been looking for statistics and haven't found them. Well, that's just plain stupid. You have no way of knowing whether or not I read what you wrote. As a matter of fact, I did.....but you still don't know that. When they show up I'll look at them and then make my decision. Bull****. You made your decision.....or, to state it more accurately, someone made it for you......a long time ago. I have a lot of faith in Mr. McPhee, Of course you do, else what is a simulacrum of authority for? so I'm disapointed that he didn't back up his position. McPhee probably doesn't have a position. In the unlikely event that he does, you would be well advised to consult with whoever told him what it is. Since he chose anecdotal support instead of scientific support on this issue when he's fetteted out so much good scientific support for other parts of this book and many other books he's written, I suspect he has no scientific information to back his position. As I stated earlier, you would have no trouble at all in dismissing whatever staistics he might have put forward to support his "position". Ironically, such a dismissal would be the only justifiable action you'd be likely to take in this exhibition of inane drivel. The simple fact is that "scientific support" and statistics have absolutely nothing to contribute to the sham debate between the advocates of catch and release on the one hand and catch and kill on the other. To anyone but an abject fool the usefulness of both as management tools is self evident. Which, or what combination, to use in a particular situation is the only problem to which science and statistics are applicable and then only for purely pragmatic reasons. None of this goes to the core issue. The concerns of organizations like PETA most emphatically DO address the core issue. The fact that such organizations are populated primarily by disingenuous idiots does no more to diminish this truth than does their opposition's pigheaded and equally dishonest refusal to address it. Even given that opinion, I didn't accuse him of being a fool or an ashole or a peta idiot. True, but if you had read what I wrote, you would have noticed that I didn't say anything about custard being a better building material than blue fog. I left it that I doubted that he found any data, rather than accusing him of dishonesty. Beyond your own memory and interpretation of whatever he may have presented in his book, you have no way of knowing what data he found. And you DID accuse him of dishonesty. Remember, "I'm just as sure that McPhee chose to include the data that met with his opinion and ignored some other stuff."? Reminds me of somebody. Anyway, your own little lie notwithstanding, I agree that McPhee is certainly a facile liar.......he's a prefessional (in the sense that he gets paid for it) writer......that's his job. I hold to that position. Actually, as demonstrated above, you don't. But that's o.k., you just go ahead and pretend. Go back to your sandbox. Go **** yourself. Wolfgang hey, if it feels good, do it......right? :) |
The Founding Fish and Catch and Release
"Wolfgang" wrote:
"Chas Wade" wrote in message news:oJhSb.179035$I06.1852208@attbi_s01... You're the fool. The difference is that for me it's a job.......not a way of life. :) If you'd read my message before you responded to it, you'd have seen that I've been looking for statistics and haven't found them. Well, that's just plain stupid. You have no way of knowing whether or not I read what you wrote. As a matter of fact, I did.....but you still don't know that. And there's my big mistake. I presumed that if you'd read it you would have understood it. Silly of me. Chas remove fly fish to reply http://home.comcast.net/~chas.wade/w...ome.html-.html San Juan Pictures at: http://home.comcast.net/~chasepike/wsb/index.html |
The Founding Fish and Catch and Release
Wolfgang wrote:
"Chas Wade" wrote If you'd read my message before you responded to it, you'd have seen that I've been looking for statistics and haven't found them. Well, that's just plain stupid. You have no way of knowing whether or not I read what you wrote. As a matter of fact, I did.....but you still don't know that. snippage Even given that opinion, I didn't accuse him of being a fool or an ashole or a peta idiot. True, but if you had read what I wrote, you would have noticed ....... TTYROR. JR (thinking the minutes I spent reading what both wrote are minutes gone for good) |
The Founding Fish and Catch and Release
"Chas Wade" wrote in message news:EinSb.142138$sv6.781715@attbi_s52... "Wolfgang" wrote: "Chas Wade" wrote in message news:oJhSb.179035$I06.1852208@attbi_s01... You're the fool. The difference is that for me it's a job.......not a way of life. :) If you'd read my message before you responded to it, you'd have seen that I've been looking for statistics and haven't found them. Well, that's just plain stupid. You have no way of knowing whether or not I read what you wrote. As a matter of fact, I did.....but you still don't know that. And there's my big mistake. I presumed that if you'd read it you would have understood it. Silly of me. Ah, the rec.irony.unintended welcoming committee! Thanks. It's nice to be here. :) Wolfgang |
The Founding Fish and Catch and Release
"JR" wrote in message ... TTYROR. JR (thinking the minutes I spent reading what both wrote are minutes gone for good) It's just possible that there's a lesson lurking in there somewhere. Wolfgang who is not so presumptuous as to speculate on what it might be. |
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