The time has come, the walrus said,
 

to speak of many things.

Don't know (or care) much about kings (though the notion of "gross
national happiness" suggests Bhutan's former king, Jigme Singye
Wangchuck, might be worth another look) and cabbages could keep us
profitably engaged for weeks.....so we'll pass on that (for now) too.

That leaves (in no particularly meaningful order) chestnuts, coulee
country trout in June, and things that lend a sense of perspective to
the world.....or at least to its inhabitants.....or, some of them,
anyway.

Let's start with the latter.....thus putting the lie to the above
qualification.

Yeah, some things really are more important than others, I s'pose.
Roughly 48 hours ago, as I begin typing this at about 7 p.m., I
arrived at home to find a robust elderly woman on the driveway end of
the drawbridge.....with no vehicle in sight. The driveway is 3/4 of a
mile long. There should NOT be a robust elderly woman on the driveway
end of the drawbridge with no vehicle in sight.

Hm........

I pull up next to her.

Do you live here? she asks.

Yes.

She introduces herself and asks if I know her husband, Karl.

Of course. I'm Wolfgang, by the way.

Well, could you move your truck? The ambulance is on it's way and we
need to keep the driveway clear.

????!!

Karl has suffered a "BAD" accident up on the hillside.

O.k., I'll drive up and see what I can do.

I drive up to the barn and park next to a vehicle there. Looking off
to my right I can see a figure standing on the hillside. I walk up.
It's Karl's son standing next to a supine body recognizable (if only
barely) as Karl. Karl is a native Finn from somewhere in Finland
where they speak Swedish. Been here a long time. Married a local
girl and raised good old Murrican kids. And Karl was born with a
chainsaw in his hands. And now he's died (more or less) the same
way. It ain't official.....yet.....there's the whole organ donor
thingy to go through, but the important part of the story, for those
who knew him, is over.

Karl came out to the tree farm on Wednesday morning (Becky encountered
him at the end of the driveway as she was leaving around 9 a.m.) to
"help" Larry out by cutting down a bunch of "over mature" birch which,
on any other day, he would then have cut up to sell as firewood. Karl
was also scheduled to pick up his grandchildren from school at 3 p.m.
somewhere less than 45 minutes drive from here. I'm not yet sure who
first became concerned about his absence or exactly when, but it was
eventually noticed that something was most emphatically NOT
right.....and someone determined, quite correctly, that the search for
the missing Karl should start here.

As alluded to above, I arrived shortly after 7:00 p.m. The first EMT
on the scene arrived about fifteen minutes later. In the next fifteen
minutes no less than twenty cops, firefighters, EMTs and unidentified
others, along with one monster ATV (they called it a UTV.....whatever
the hell that might mean), two firetrucks, three squad cars and sundry
other vehicles showed up. The helicopter, I'm told, was not far
behind. I didn't see the latter till sometime later as it's pilot (a
savvy veteran of 41 years, I was told) decided to wait out on the
pavement rather than risk a landing on the soup that all too soon
swallowed the rear end of the ambulance.....which proved impossible to
unmire with the tractor......they got it out much later with a winch
on the firetruck.....which barely made it in and out in the early
spring mud.

The short version is that we managed to get Karl on whatever the hell
it is they call the modern version of a stretcher......I sorta forgot
in all the excitement.....and seven or eight of us skidded him down
the hill on the snow and lifted him into the back of the ambulance,
where what would be an amazingly efficient crew, if we hadn't seen it
all before, got him stabilized to the point that he could be moved out
to the road.....if the ambulance hadn't gotten stuck. The UTV came to
the rescue.....quite literally, of course. We all followed it out to
the road in a cavalcade of slow moving vehicles.....VERY slow
moving.....no need to aggravate any spinal or other severe injuries.

The rest of the evening is mere details.....except for the part about
the helicopter. Having worked for sixteen years at a medical facility
where the helicopter crew flew an average of three to four missions a
day, I thought I was used to this sort of thing.

Nope.

This guy had come in after lights out.....pretty much total darkness,
what with the solid overcast and the time of day. And he landed this
thing (and subsequently took off) under the same conditions.....with
the tips of his rotors no more than twenty feet from the power lines
along side of the road. Balls. 41 years. Hm.....I'm guessing I know
where he growed up.

Heroes.

Well, they may be over there somewhere or they may not.....but they
are most certainly HERE.....all around us.....every day and night.

Not that it did anyone much good on this particular evening. No
physician myself (let alone a neurologist), but, as noted above, I've
spent a lot of time in the company of the dead and near dead. A
minute or so in Karl's company on that evening was about enough to
confirm the impression that he was toast.

What happened, apparently (no one will ever know the details), was
that Karl had an encounter with a "widow maker", a term that he may or
may not have been familiar with. He certainly knew the actuality, if
not the English name. The severely leaning birch tree whose base he
was lying next to had been notched.....perfectly done, no problem.
But somewhere in the backcut the tree split up to about eight feet
above ground level. A common enough nightmare that almost always has
no memorable consequences. ALMOST always. This time.....well, it
bucked.....it got him.....and he'll never remember it. And the rest
of us will never forget it.

And then we'll got out in the woods.....with a saw.....alone (not that
company would have made a difference).

giles
who, on second thought (roughly two hours into the exercise) will
forego the trout and the chestnuts for now.

oh, and lest anyone get the wrong impression, Karl was not a dear
lifelong friend, not someone with whom i share a long and intimate
history. we probably spent about four to eight hours in casual
conversation over the last two years. he was a nice guy.

The time has come, the walrus said,
 

On Fri, 18 Mar 2011 19:24:56 -0700 (PDT), Giles
wrote:

to speak of many things.

snipped

giles
who, on second thought (roughly two hours into the exercise) will
forego the trout and the chestnuts for now.

oh, and lest anyone get the wrong impression, Karl was not a dear
lifelong friend, not someone with whom i share a long and intimate
history. we probably spent about four to eight hours in casual
conversation over the last two years. he was a nice guy.


Thats tough. I've lost a couple friends over the years to bad luck
with trees.

Geo. C.

The time has come, the walrus said,
 

On Mar 18, 7:24*pm, Giles wrote:
*to speak of many things.


What happened, apparently (no one will ever know the details), was
that Karl had an encounter with a "widow maker", a term that he may or
may not have been familiar with. *He certainly knew the actuality, if
not the English name. *The severely leaning birch tree whose base he
was lying next to had been notched.....perfectly done, no problem.
But somewhere in the backcut the tree split up to about eight feet
above ground level. *A common enough nightmare that almost always has
no memorable consequences. *ALMOST always. *This time.....well, it
bucked.....it got him.....and he'll never remember it. *And the rest
of us will never forget it.

Actually the type of accident you describe (here in big timber country
we call it a barber chair) is one of the most common causes of death
or serious injury in timber falling accidents. Many hardwoods
(including Birch) are quite prone to splitting as you described
sometime during the back cut - especially if they have a heavy lean.
Though many saw hands scoff at the practice as being sissy, the safest
way to fell such trees is to bind the butt (immediately above where
the top of the notch cut will be) with heavy duty nylon webbing (made
to handle the extreme forces involved) before starting any cuts. The
old saying that "There are bold timber fallers and there are old
timber fallers, but few are lucky enough to be old bold timber
fallers." is quite true.

Bob Weinberger - DuPont, WA

The time has come, the walrus said,
 

On Mar 19, 3:12*am, Bob wrote:
On Mar 18, 7:24*pm, Giles wrote:

*to speak of many things.

What happened, apparently (no one will ever know the details), was
that Karl had an encounter with a "widow maker", a term that he may or
may not have been familiar with. *He certainly knew the actuality, if
not the English name. *The severely leaning birch tree whose base he
was lying next to had been notched.....perfectly done, no problem.
But somewhere in the backcut the tree split up to about eight feet
above ground level. *A common enough nightmare that almost always has
no memorable consequences. *ALMOST always. *This time.....well, it
bucked.....it got him.....and he'll never remember it. *And the rest
of us will never forget it.

Actually the type of accident you describe (here in big timber country
we call it a barber chair) is *one of the most common causes of death
or serious injury in timber falling accidents.

Never heard the term "barber chair" before in this context. Easy
enough to understand, though. It's also easy to believe that it ranks
high as a cause of death or injury. Do you have ready access to any
numbers?

Many hardwoods
(including Birch) are quite prone to splitting as you described
sometime during the back cut - especially if they have a heavy lean.

I've seen it happen a couple of times myself. Didn't know that birch
was a frequent offender.

Though many saw hands scoff at the practice as being sissy, the safest
way to fell such trees is to bind the butt (immediately above where
the top of the notch cut will be) with heavy duty nylon webbing (made
to handle the extreme forces involved) before starting any cuts.

This, too, is news to me. I'd appreciate any more inofrmation you
could provide as I'll be doing a lot of cutting here in the next few
months.

The
old saying that "There are bold timber fallers and there are old
timber fallers, but few are lucky enough to be old bold timber
fallers." is quite true.

There have been times and arenas in life when I've flirted with the
bold thing. I was lucky. I try hard not to do that anymore. Never
did it in connection with tree falling. But, like just about anyone,
I suppose, I've been careless on occasion. I don't think Karl was
particularly bold.....and he was certainly getting old at 69. He may
or may not have been careless.....I don't know whether he had ever
heard of the practice of binding trees with webbing.

At any rate, it now looks as if this "bad luck" may have been
preventable. Casts the whole mess in a different light.

Much to think about.

Thanks, Bob

giles

The time has come, the walrus said,
 

On Mar 19, 1:12*am, georgecleveland wrote:
On Fri, 18 Mar 2011 19:24:56 -0700 (PDT), Giles
wrote:



to speak of many things.

snipped

giles
who, on second thought (roughly two hours into the exercise) will
forego the trout and the chestnuts for now.

oh, and lest anyone get the wrong impression, Karl was not a dear
lifelong friend, not someone with whom i share a long and intimate
history. *we probably spent about four to eight hours in casual
conversation over the last two years. *he was a nice guy.

Thats tough. I've lost a couple friends over the years to bad luck
with trees.

Geo. C.

I've known that this sort of thing happens for a long long time. This
is my first personal experience with it. My tenure here suddenly
looks a lot different than it did a few days ago.

giles

The time has come, the walrus said,
 

Giles wrote in news:478b6b73-8443-458c-95e0-
:

giles


Moron!!!!

****-for-Brains!!!!!

ConRad

The time has come, the walrus said,
 

On Mar 19, 8:55*pm, ConwayRadis wrote:
Giles wrote in news:478b6b73-8443-458c-95e0-
:

giles

Moron!!!!

****-for-Brains!!!!!

ConRad

Well, you're certainly right about one thing....."who" you are doesn't
matter. But you just couldn't resist the temptation to show the world
"what" you are, eh?

g.

The time has come, the walrus said,
 

On Mar 19, 4:29*am, Giles wrote:
On Mar 19, 3:12*am, Bob wrote:


Actually the type of accident you describe (here in big timber country
we call it a barber chair) is *one of the most common causes of death
or serious injury in timber falling accidents.

Never heard the term "barber chair" before in this context. *Easy
enough to understand, though. *It's also easy to believe that it ranks
high as a cause of death or injury. *Do you have ready access to any
numbers?

Many years ago when I was involved in logging supervision, I used to
receive regular accident reports from Oregon OSHA on serious logging
accidents. Death & serious injury from barber chairs were always high
on the list. I imagine OSHA still keeps such statistics.

Many
(including Birch) are quite prone to splitting as you described
sometime during the back cut - especially if they have a heavy lean.

I've seen it happen a couple of times myself. *Didn't know that birch
was a frequent offender.

Though many saw hands scoff at the practice as being sissy, the safest
way to fell such trees is to bind the butt (immediately above where
the top of the notch cut will be) with heavy duty nylon webbing (made
to handle the extreme forces involved) before starting any cuts.

This, too, is news to me. *I'd appreciate any more inofrmation you
could provide as I'll be doing a lot of cutting here in the next few
months.

I probably should have used the term strapping rather then webbing.
The type of nylon web strap that log truck drivers in many areas use
to bind down their loads is what is used. Any good saw shop in an area
where there is much commercial logging going on could make one up for
you in a size to handle the size trees you will be working with. It
should be used on any tree with a very heavy lean (especially
hardwoods) or one with a very unbalanced crown (heavy in the direction
of fall).


The
old saying that "There are bold timber fallers and there are old
timber fallers, but few are lucky enough to be old bold timber
fallers." is quite true.

There have been times and arenas in life when I've flirted with the
bold thing. *I was lucky. *I try hard not to do that anymore. *Never
did it in connection with tree falling. *But, like just about anyone,
I suppose, I've been careless on occasion. *I don't think Karl was
particularly bold.....and he was certainly getting old at 69. *He may
or may not have been careless.....I don't know whether he had ever
heard of the practice of binding trees with webbing.

At any rate, it now looks as if this "bad luck" may have been
preventable. *Casts the whole mess in a different light.

Much to think about.

Thanks, Bob

giles

Bob Weinberger DuPont, WA

The time has come, the walrus said,
 

On Mar 21, 8:45*pm, Bob wrote:
On Mar 19, 4:29*am, Giles wrote:

On Mar 19, 3:12*am, Bob wrote:

Actually the type of accident you describe (here in big timber country
we call it a barber chair) is *one of the most common causes of death
or serious injury in timber falling accidents.

Never heard the term "barber chair" before in this context. *Easy
enough to understand, though. *It's also easy to believe that it ranks
high as a cause of death or injury. *Do you have ready access to any
numbers?

*Many years ago when I was involved in logging supervision, I used to
receive regular accident reports from Oregon OSHA on serious logging
accidents. *Death & serious injury from barber chairs were always high
on the list. *I imagine OSHA still keeps such statistics.

Many
(including Birch) are quite prone to splitting as you described
sometime during the back cut - especially if they have a heavy lean.

I've seen it happen a couple of times myself. *Didn't know that birch
was a frequent offender.

Though many saw hands scoff at the practice as being sissy, the safest
way to fell such trees is to bind the butt (immediately above where
the top of the notch cut will be) with heavy duty nylon webbing (made
to handle the extreme forces involved) before starting any cuts.

This, too, is news to me. *I'd appreciate any more inofrmation you
could provide as I'll be doing a lot of cutting here in the next few
months.

I probably should have used the term strapping rather then webbing.
The type of nylon web strap that log truck drivers in many areas use
to bind down their loads is what is used. Any good saw shop in an area
where there is much commercial logging going on could make one up for
you in a size to handle the size trees you will be working with. *It
should be used on any tree with a very heavy lean (especially
hardwoods) or one with a very unbalanced crown (heavy in the direction
of fall).











The
old saying that "There are bold timber fallers and there are old
timber fallers, but few are lucky enough to be old bold timber
fallers." is quite true.

There have been times and arenas in life when I've flirted with the
bold thing. *I was lucky. *I try hard not to do that anymore. *Never
did it in connection with tree falling. *But, like just about anyone,
I suppose, I've been careless on occasion. *I don't think Karl was
particularly bold.....and he was certainly getting old at 69. *He may
or may not have been careless.....I don't know whether he had ever
heard of the practice of binding trees with webbing.

At any rate, it now looks as if this "bad luck" may have been
preventable. *Casts the whole mess in a different light.

Much to think about.

Thanks, Bob

giles

Bob Weinberger * *DuPont, WA


Hi, everyone. Wolfgang - thanks for that story, entertaining and
thought provoking, as always. And thanks, Bob, too, for sharing from
your expertise.

Please forgive this question - I'm not too embarrassed to say that I
don't quite get the mechanics of this accident.

google image search of "logging accident barber chair" produced this:
http://www.forestryforum.com/images/...arberchair.jpg

Is the issue that part of the tree from *below* the intended cut gets
split along with the main part of the tree and that's what swings up
with bad potential results?

The time has come, the walrus said,
 

On Mar 21, 8:02*pm, "dr.narcolepsy" wrote:
On Mar 21, 8:45*pm, Bob wrote:





On Mar 19, 4:29*am, Giles wrote:

On Mar 19, 3:12*am, Bob wrote:

Actually the type of accident you describe (here in big timber country
we call it a barber chair) is *one of the most common causes of death
or serious injury in timber falling accidents.

Never heard the term "barber chair" before in this context. *Easy
enough to understand, though. *It's also easy to believe that it ranks
high as a cause of death or injury. *Do you have ready access to any
numbers?

*Many years ago when I was involved in logging supervision, I used to
receive regular accident reports from Oregon OSHA on serious logging
accidents. *Death & serious injury from barber chairs were always high
on the list. *I imagine OSHA still keeps such statistics.

Many
(including Birch) are quite prone to splitting as you described
sometime during the back cut - especially if they have a heavy lean..

I've seen it happen a couple of times myself. *Didn't know that birch
was a frequent offender.

Though many saw hands scoff at the practice as being sissy, the safest
way to fell such trees is to bind the butt (immediately above where
the top of the notch cut will be) with heavy duty nylon webbing (made
to handle the extreme forces involved) before starting any cuts.

This, too, is news to me. *I'd appreciate any more inofrmation you
could provide as I'll be doing a lot of cutting here in the next few
months.

I probably should have used the term strapping rather then webbing.
The type of nylon web strap that log truck drivers in many areas use
to bind down their loads is what is used. Any good saw shop in an area
where there is much commercial logging going on could make one up for
you in a size to handle the size trees you will be working with. *It
should be used on any tree with a very heavy lean (especially
hardwoods) or one with a very unbalanced crown (heavy in the direction
of fall).

The
old saying that "There are bold timber fallers and there are old
timber fallers, but few are lucky enough to be old bold timber
fallers." is quite true.

There have been times and arenas in life when I've flirted with the
bold thing. *I was lucky. *I try hard not to do that anymore. *Never
did it in connection with tree falling. *But, like just about anyone,
I suppose, I've been careless on occasion. *I don't think Karl was
particularly bold.....and he was certainly getting old at 69. *He may
or may not have been careless.....I don't know whether he had ever
heard of the practice of binding trees with webbing.

At any rate, it now looks as if this "bad luck" may have been
preventable. *Casts the whole mess in a different light.

Much to think about.

Thanks, Bob

giles

Bob Weinberger * *DuPont, WA

Hi, everyone. *Wolfgang - thanks for that story, entertaining and
thought provoking, as always. *And thanks, Bob, too, for sharing from
your expertise.

Please forgive this question - I'm not too embarrassed to say that I
don't quite get the mechanics of this accident.

google image search of "logging accident barber chair" produced this:http://www.forestryforum.com/images/...arberchair.jpg

Is the issue that part of the tree from *below* the intended cut gets
split along with the main part of the tree and that's what swings up
with bad potential results?

I can't speak with any authority to what happens generally, but in
Karl's case, and as I have seen before, the split occurs (or, starts,
anyway) right at the place where the back cut is made. The
illustration at the site you pointed us to is a bit misleading in that
it doesn't show the notch, which is precisely opposite where the split
has occured and where the sawyer has met his doom. Of course, the
result shown can also happen without a notch having been cut at all
(as shown) but common practice, as far as I know, includes notching on
the side toward which the tree is intended to fall. However, this may
indeed not be the case where trees lean severely and where they are
intended to fall in the direction of the lean. Obviously, cutting
opposite this direction will produce the intended result without a
notch.....but the possible consequences (with or without the notch,
for all I know) are now all too obvious.

In any case, the answer to your question would appear to be no.....the
split starts at the backcut and moves up through the trunk.....or so
it has always been in my admittedly limited experience.

Incidentally, I've seen in happen even with small trees and without
any significant lean. And, unlike what is shown in the illustration,
the busted end does not necessarily always simply lever up. It will
often kcik back as well. Imagine the broken end actually moving
toward the sawyer so that even if he were standing several feet back
from where he is shown in the illustration. Depending on
circumstances, he might still be toast.

And, of course, it is not just whole standing trees that are
dangerous. I narrowly missed being decapitated myself by a four inch
cherry branch last spring. The tree was already down......dropped by
a much larger oak that took several other trees with it. The cherry
branch was obviously under tension.....had a significant bend to it.
I misjudged the angle of the bend or the forces at play or one thing
or another. I cut it and felt the wind whizzing past my left ear
before the import of what had just happened (or not.....depending on
point of view.....I'm glad to report that I'm in a position to take
the latter) registered in my brain or Becky's; she was about fifteen
feet away, waiting to load up the sawn firewood.

Any way you look at it, wherever the sound of a chainsaw penetrates
(or any other saw) there is danger aplenty.

But then, the same can be said for any place that such sounds never
reach.

giles
who has known all his life (on a more or less intellectual level) that
one way or another they WILL get you in the end. it's just in the
past few decades that a more personal and visceral point of view has
come to hold sway. :)

p.s. Karl died about 2 or 3 a.m. on saturday.

The time has come, the walrus said,
 

On Mar 21, 7:10*pm, Giles wrote:

You've done a good job of describing the barber chair phenomenon. As
you have learned, a dangerous situation exists anytime one is cutting
a tree, log, or even a branch that is under tension. Binding the butt
of the tree can prevent most barber chair accidents, but just as you
wouldn't knowingly place yourself in line with the muzzle of a firearm
just because the safety is engaged, you should never place yourself
(or any part of your body) in a direct line with the direction of
tension.

Bob Weinberger - DuPont,WA

The time has come, the walrus said,
 

Giles wrote in
:

On Mar 21, 8:02*pm, "dr.narcolepsy" wrote:
On Mar 21, 8:45*pm, Bob wrote:





On Mar 19, 4:29*am, Giles wrote:

On Mar 19, 3:12*am, Bob wrote:

Actually the type of accident you describe (here in big timber
coun
try
we call it a barber chair) is *one of the most common causes of
d
eath
or serious injury in timber falling accidents.

Never heard the term "barber chair" before in this context. *Easy
enough to understand, though. *It's also easy to believe that it
ra
nks
high as a cause of death or injury. *Do you have ready access to
an
y
numbers?

*Many years ago when I was involved in logging supervision, I used
to receive regular accident reports from Oregon OSHA on serious
logging accidents. *Death & serious injury from barber chairs were
always hig
h
on the list. *I imagine OSHA still keeps such statistics.

Many
(including Birch) are quite prone to splitting as you described
sometime during the back cut - especially if they have a heavy
lean
.

I've seen it happen a couple of times myself. *Didn't know that
bir
ch
was a frequent offender.

Though many saw hands scoff at the practice as being sissy, the
saf
est
way to fell such trees is to bind the butt (immediately above
where the top of the notch cut will be) with heavy duty nylon
webbing (ma
de
to handle the extreme forces involved) before starting any
cuts.

This, too, is news to me. *I'd appreciate any more inofrmation
you could provide as I'll be doing a lot of cutting here in the
next few months.

I probably should have used the term strapping rather then webbing.
The type of nylon web strap that log truck drivers in many areas
use to bind down their loads is what is used. Any good saw shop in
an area where there is much commercial logging going on could make
one up for you in a size to handle the size trees you will be
working with. *It should be used on any tree with a very heavy lean
(especially hardwoods) or one with a very unbalanced crown (heavy
in the direction of fall).

The
old saying that "There are bold timber fallers and there are
old timber fallers, but few are lucky enough to be old bold
timber fallers." is quite true.

There have been times and arenas in life when I've flirted with
the bold thing. *I was lucky. *I try hard not to do that anymore.
*
Never
did it in connection with tree falling. *But, like just about
anyon
e,
I suppose, I've been careless on occasion. *I don't think Karl
was particularly bold.....and he was certainly getting old at 69.
*He m
ay
or may not have been careless.....I don't know whether he had
ever heard of the practice of binding trees with webbing.

At any rate, it now looks as if this "bad luck" may have been
preventable. *Casts the whole mess in a different light.

Much to think about.

Thanks, Bob

giles

Bob Weinberger * *DuPont, WA

Hi, everyone. *Wolfgang - thanks for that story, entertaining and
thought provoking, as always. *And thanks, Bob, too, for sharing from
your expertise.

Please forgive this question - I'm not too embarrassed to say that I
don't quite get the mechanics of this accident.

google image search of "logging accident barber chair" produced
this:http
://www.forestryforum.com/images/YaBBImages/userpics/barberchair.jpg

Is the issue that part of the tree from *below* the intended cut gets
split along with the main part of the tree and that's what swings up
with bad potential results?

I can't speak with any authority to what happens generally, but in
Karl's case, and as I have seen before, the split occurs (or, starts,
anyway) right at the place where the back cut is made. The
illustration at the site you pointed us to is a bit misleading in that
it doesn't show the notch, which is precisely opposite where the split
has occured and where the sawyer has met his doom. Of course, the
result shown can also happen without a notch having been cut at all
(as shown) but common practice, as far as I know, includes notching on
the side toward which the tree is intended to fall. However, this may
indeed not be the case where trees lean severely and where they are
intended to fall in the direction of the lean. Obviously, cutting
opposite this direction will produce the intended result without a
notch.....but the possible consequences (with or without the notch,
for all I know) are now all too obvious.

In any case, the answer to your question would appear to be no.....the
split starts at the backcut and moves up through the trunk.....or so
it has always been in my admittedly limited experience.

Incidentally, I've seen in happen even with small trees and without
any significant lean. And, unlike what is shown in the illustration,
the busted end does not necessarily always simply lever up. It will
often kcik back as well. Imagine the broken end actually moving
toward the sawyer so that even if he were standing several feet back
from where he is shown in the illustration. Depending on
circumstances, he might still be toast.

And, of course, it is not just whole standing trees that are
dangerous. I narrowly missed being decapitated myself by a four inch
cherry branch last spring. The tree was already down......dropped by
a much larger oak that took several other trees with it. The cherry
branch was obviously under tension.....had a significant bend to it.
I misjudged the angle of the bend or the forces at play or one thing
or another. I cut it and felt the wind whizzing past my left ear
before the import of what had just happened (or not.....depending on
point of view.....I'm glad to report that I'm in a position to take
the latter) registered in my brain or Becky's; she was about fifteen
feet away, waiting to load up the sawn firewood.

Any way you look at it, wherever the sound of a chainsaw penetrates
(or any other saw) there is danger aplenty.

But then, the same can be said for any place that such sounds never
reach.

giles
who has known all his life (on a more or less intellectual level) that
one way or another they WILL get you in the end. it's just in the
past few decades that a more personal and visceral point of view has
come to hold sway. :)

p.s. Karl died about 2 or 3 a.m. on saturday.


WTF does this irrelevant babbling about felling a MF-Tree have to do with
FISHING?????

I know, It's the 'old woman' in you that just can't resist the opportunity
to go on, and on, about a nothing topic. All you need, you Old Bitch, is
just the least bit of an chance to start up that super charged motor mouth
of yours, and spew out from here to eternity!

Babble on you crusty old witch!!

The time has come, the walrus said,
 

On Mar 21, 9:17*pm, ConwayRadis wrote:
Giles wrote :



On Mar 21, 8:02*pm, "dr.narcolepsy" wrote:
On Mar 21, 8:45*pm, Bob wrote:

On Mar 19, 4:29*am, Giles wrote:

On Mar 19, 3:12*am, Bob wrote:

Actually the type of accident you describe (here in big timber
coun
try
we call it a barber chair) is *one of the most common causes of
d
eath
or serious injury in timber falling accidents.

Never heard the term "barber chair" before in this context. *Easy
enough to understand, though. *It's also easy to believe that it
ra
nks
high as a cause of death or injury. *Do you have ready access to
an
y
numbers?

*Many years ago when I was involved in logging supervision, I used
to receive regular accident reports from Oregon OSHA on serious
logging accidents. *Death & serious injury from barber chairs were
always hig
h
on the list. *I imagine OSHA still keeps such statistics.

Many
(including Birch) are quite prone to splitting as you described
sometime during the back cut - especially if they have a heavy
lean
.

I've seen it happen a couple of times myself. *Didn't know that
bir
ch
was a frequent offender.

Though many saw hands scoff at the practice as being sissy, the
saf
est
way to fell such trees is to bind the butt (immediately above
where the top of the notch cut will be) with heavy duty nylon
webbing (ma
de
to handle the extreme forces involved) before starting any
cuts.

This, too, is news to me. *I'd appreciate any more inofrmation
you could provide as I'll be doing a lot of cutting here in the
next few months.

I probably should have used the term strapping rather then webbing.
The type of nylon web strap that log truck drivers in many areas
use to bind down their loads is what is used. Any good saw shop in
an area where there is much commercial logging going on could make
one up for you in a size to handle the size trees you will be
working with. *It should be used on any tree with a very heavy lean
(especially hardwoods) or one with a very unbalanced crown (heavy
in the direction of fall).

The
old saying that "There are bold timber fallers and there are
old timber fallers, but few are lucky enough to be old bold
timber fallers." is quite true.

There have been times and arenas in life when I've flirted with
the bold thing. *I was lucky. *I try hard not to do that anymore.
*
Never
did it in connection with tree falling. *But, like just about
anyon
e,
I suppose, I've been careless on occasion. *I don't think Karl
was particularly bold.....and he was certainly getting old at 69.
*He m
ay
or may not have been careless.....I don't know whether he had
ever heard of the practice of binding trees with webbing.

At any rate, it now looks as if this "bad luck" may have been
preventable. *Casts the whole mess in a different light.

Much to think about.

Thanks, Bob

giles

Bob Weinberger * *DuPont, WA

Hi, everyone. *Wolfgang - thanks for that story, entertaining and
thought provoking, as always. *And thanks, Bob, too, for sharing from
your expertise.

Please forgive this question - I'm not too embarrassed to say that I
don't quite get the mechanics of this accident.

google image search of "logging accident barber chair" produced
this:http
://www.forestryforum.com/images/YaBBImages/userpics/barberchair.jpg

Is the issue that part of the tree from *below* the intended cut gets
split along with the main part of the tree and that's what swings up
with bad potential results?

I can't speak with any authority to what happens generally, but in
Karl's case, and as I have seen before, the split occurs (or, starts,
anyway) right at the place *where the back cut is made. *The
illustration at the site you pointed us to is a bit misleading in that
it doesn't show the notch, which is precisely opposite where the split
has occured and where the sawyer has met his doom. *Of course, the
result shown can also happen without a notch having been cut at all
(as shown) but common practice, as far as I know, includes notching on
the side toward which the tree is intended to fall. *However, this may
indeed not be the case where trees lean severely and where they are
intended to fall in the direction of the lean. *Obviously, cutting
opposite this direction will produce the intended result without a
notch.....but the possible consequences (with or without the notch,
for all I know) are now all too obvious.

In any case, the answer to your question would appear to be no.....the
split starts at the backcut and moves up through the trunk.....or so
it has always been in my admittedly limited experience.

Incidentally, I've seen in happen even with small trees and without
any significant lean. *And, unlike what is shown in the illustration,
the busted end does not necessarily always simply lever up. *It will
often kcik back as well. *Imagine the broken end actually moving
toward the sawyer so that even if he were standing several feet back
from where he is shown in the illustration. *Depending on
circumstances, he might still be toast.

And, of course, it is not just whole standing trees that are
dangerous. *I narrowly missed being decapitated myself by a four inch
cherry branch last spring. *The tree was already down......dropped by
a much larger oak that took several other trees with it. *The cherry
branch was obviously under tension.....had a significant bend to it.
I misjudged the angle of the bend or the forces at play or one thing
or another. *I cut it and felt the wind whizzing past my left ear
before the import of what had just happened (or not.....depending on
point of view.....I'm glad to report that I'm in a position to take
the latter) registered in my brain or Becky's; she was about fifteen
feet away, waiting to load up the sawn firewood.

Any way you look at it, wherever the sound of a chainsaw penetrates
(or any other saw) there is danger aplenty.

But then, the same can be said for any place that such sounds never
reach.

giles
who has known all his life (on a more or less intellectual level) that
one way or another they WILL get you in the end. *it's just in the
past few decades that a more personal and visceral point of view has
come to hold sway. * * * *:)

p.s. *Karl died about 2 or 3 a.m. on saturday.

WTF *does this irrelevant babbling about felling a MF-Tree have to do with
FISHING?????

I know, It's the 'old woman' in you that just can't resist the opportunity
to go on, and on, about a nothing topic. *All you need, you Old Bitch, is
just the least bit of an chance to start up that super charged motor mouth
of yours, and spew out from here to eternity!

Babble on you crusty old witch!!

And just what does your complaining about the thread have to do with
FISHING???

The time has come, the walrus said,
 

On Mar 21, 11:17*pm, ConwayRadis wrote:

WTF *does this irrelevant babbling about felling a MF-Tree have to do with
FISHING?????

I know, It's the 'old woman' in you that just can't resist the opportunity
to go on, and on, about a nothing topic. *All you need, you Old Bitch, is
just the least bit of an chance to start up that super charged motor mouth
of yours, and spew out from here to eternity!

Babble on you crusty old witch!!

Some interesting questions and observations there. And I'm sure that
we could collectively address them satisfactorily if you would give us
an idea of why it hurts so much to be you. I mean, we already know
that it's not simply rank stupidity. We see enough of that here just
about every day to know that its possessors, though intellectually and
morally crippled, nevertheless manage to get through most days without
doing themselves any obvious debilitating damage. Not to say that
they don't suffer from obvious debilitating damage.....but we rarely
see any incremental increase in that damage on any given day. Well,
o.k., it isn't exactly "rarely," but you know what I mean.

So, what is it? Do you have disgusting habits that you simply cannot
give up despite knowing that the world disapproves? Do you have
thoughts and desires that would cause family and neighbors to stone
you to death if you ever gave vent to them? Is it guilt over heinous
acts committed in childhood.....or well into whatever semblance of
adulthood an overly generous observer might be willing to ascribe to
you? Are you utterly incapable of face to face encounters with human
beings? Are you paralyzed by fear at the mere thought of engaging in
something as portentous as idle chatter? Are you possessed of a
visage that sends women and small children shrieking into the cold
dark night? Do you eat boogers? Do you carry your bottle-cap
collection in your anus?

Give us just a few little hints. We'll see what we can do for you.

g.

The time has come, the walrus said,
 

Giles wrote in
:

On Mar 21, 11:17*pm, ConwayRadis wrote:

WTF *does this irrelevant babbling about felling a MF-Tree have to do
w
ith
FISHING?????

I know, It's the 'old woman' in you that just can't resist the
opportunit
y
to go on, and on, about a nothing topic. *All you need, you Old
Bitch,
is
just the least bit of an chance to start up that super charged motor
mout
h
of yours, and spew out from here to eternity!

Babble on you crusty old witch!!

Some interesting questions and observations there. And I'm sure that
we could collectively address them satisfactorily if you would give us
an idea of why it hurts so much to be you. I mean, we already know
that it's not simply rank stupidity. We see enough of that here just
about every day to know that its possessors, though intellectually and
morally crippled, nevertheless manage to get through most days without
doing themselves any obvious debilitating damage. Not to say that
they don't suffer from obvious debilitating damage.....but we rarely
see any incremental increase in that damage on any given day. Well,
o.k., it isn't exactly "rarely," but you know what I mean.

So, what is it? Do you have disgusting habits that you simply cannot
give up despite knowing that the world disapproves? Do you have
thoughts and desires that would cause family and neighbors to stone
you to death if you ever gave vent to them? Is it guilt over heinous
acts committed in childhood.....or well into whatever semblance of
adulthood an overly generous observer might be willing to ascribe to
you? Are you utterly incapable of face to face encounters with human
beings? Are you paralyzed by fear at the mere thought of engaging in
something as portentous as idle chatter? Are you possessed of a
visage that sends women and small children shrieking into the cold
dark night? Do you eat boogers? Do you carry your bottle-cap
collection in your anus?

Give us just a few little hints. We'll see what we can do for you.

g.


GOOD GOD!!!!

Yet another babbling crusty old bitch that goes on, and on, and on about
irrelevent BS that has nothing to do with FISHING!!!!!

Babble on senile old woman!

The time has come, the walrus said,
 

On Mar 22, 7:37*pm, ConwayRadis wrote:
Giles wrote :



On Mar 21, 11:17*pm, ConwayRadis wrote:

GOOD GOD!!!!

Yet another babbling crusty old bitch that goes on, and on, and on about
irrelevent BS that has nothing to do with FISHING!!!!!

Babble on senile old woman!

Any rational person would find it more than a little ironic that you,
who has not contributed one post about fishing (at least under your
current nom de plume), complains about posts that are not about
fishing.

The time has come, the walrus said,
 

On Mar 22, 9:37*pm, ConwayRadis wrote:
Giles wrote :





On Mar 21, 11:17*pm, ConwayRadis wrote:

WTF *does this irrelevant babbling about felling a MF-Tree have to do
w
ith
FISHING?????

I know, It's the 'old woman' in you that just can't resist the
opportunit
y
to go on, and on, about a nothing topic. *All you need, you Old
Bitch,
is
just the least bit of an chance to start up that super charged motor
mout
h
of yours, and spew out from here to eternity!

Babble on you crusty old witch!!

Some interesting questions and observations there. *And I'm sure that
we could collectively address them satisfactorily if you would give us
an idea of why it hurts so much to be you. *I mean, we already know
that it's not simply rank stupidity. *We see enough of that here just
about every day to know that its possessors, though intellectually and
morally crippled, nevertheless manage to get through most days without
doing themselves any obvious debilitating damage. *Not to say that
they don't suffer from obvious debilitating damage.....but we rarely
see any incremental increase in that damage on any given day. *Well,
o.k., it isn't exactly "rarely," but you know what I mean.

So, what is it? *Do you have disgusting habits that you simply cannot
give up despite knowing that the world disapproves? *Do you have
thoughts and desires that would cause family and neighbors to stone
you to death if you ever gave vent to them? *Is it guilt over heinous
acts committed in childhood.....or well into whatever semblance of
adulthood an overly generous observer might be willing to ascribe to
you? *Are you utterly incapable of face to face encounters with human
beings? *Are you paralyzed by fear at the mere thought of engaging in
something as portentous as idle chatter? *Are you possessed of a
visage that sends women and small children shrieking into the cold
dark night? *Do you eat boogers? *Do you carry your bottle-cap
collection in your anus?

Give us just a few little hints. *We'll see what we can do for you.

g.

GOOD GOD!!!!

Yet another babbling crusty old bitch that goes on, and on, and on about
irrelevent BS that has nothing to do with FISHING!!!!!

Another?

Hm.....

Exactly how many of us am I?

Not that it matters much in terms of overall content, but we like to
keep an accurate score.

Babble on senile old woman!

Oh.....whew!....for a moment there we thought you wanted us to cease.

Well then.....um.....let's see now.....oh yes, I believe we were
discussing your pain. You have doubtless wondered from time to time
as to its ultimate origin. Invoking he widely useful paradigm of the
path of least resistance (or Occam's razor, if you prefer) I'd suggest
that you consider Karma, which is to say that you just plain deserve
it.

In any case, there's nothing you can do about. It's going to be with
you for as long as you live. Well, actually, that observation DOES
suggest a simple, foolproof and permanent remedy.

Good luck! :)

g.

The time has come, the walrus said,
 

On Mar 22, 9:02*am, "dr.narcolepsy" wrote:
On Mar 21, 8:45*pm, Bob wrote:





On Mar 19, 4:29*am, Giles wrote:

On Mar 19, 3:12*am, Bob wrote:

Actually the type of accident you describe (here in big timber country
we call it a barber chair) is *one of the most common causes of death
or serious injury in timber falling accidents.

Never heard the term "barber chair" before in this context. *Easy
enough to understand, though. *It's also easy to believe that it ranks
high as a cause of death or injury. *Do you have ready access to any
numbers?

*Many years ago when I was involved in logging supervision, I used to
receive regular accident reports from Oregon OSHA on serious logging
accidents. *Death & serious injury from barber chairs were always high
on the list. *I imagine OSHA still keeps such statistics.

Many
(including Birch) are quite prone to splitting as you described
sometime during the back cut - especially if they have a heavy lean..

I've seen it happen a couple of times myself. *Didn't know that birch
was a frequent offender.

Though many saw hands scoff at the practice as being sissy, the safest
way to fell such trees is to bind the butt (immediately above where
the top of the notch cut will be) with heavy duty nylon webbing (made
to handle the extreme forces involved) before starting any cuts.

This, too, is news to me. *I'd appreciate any more inofrmation you
could provide as I'll be doing a lot of cutting here in the next few
months.

I probably should have used the term strapping rather then webbing.
The type of nylon web strap that log truck drivers in many areas use
to bind down their loads is what is used. Any good saw shop in an area
where there is much commercial logging going on could make one up for
you in a size to handle the size trees you will be working with. *It
should be used on any tree with a very heavy lean (especially
hardwoods) or one with a very unbalanced crown (heavy in the direction
of fall).

The
old saying that "There are bold timber fallers and there are old
timber fallers, but few are lucky enough to be old bold timber
fallers." is quite true.

There have been times and arenas in life when I've flirted with the
bold thing. *I was lucky. *I try hard not to do that anymore. *Never
did it in connection with tree falling. *But, like just about anyone,
I suppose, I've been careless on occasion. *I don't think Karl was
particularly bold.....and he was certainly getting old at 69. *He may
or may not have been careless.....I don't know whether he had ever
heard of the practice of binding trees with webbing.

At any rate, it now looks as if this "bad luck" may have been
preventable. *Casts the whole mess in a different light.

Much to think about.

Thanks, Bob

giles

Bob Weinberger * *DuPont, WA

Hi, everyone. *Wolfgang - thanks for that story, entertaining and
thought provoking, as always. *And thanks, Bob, too, for sharing from
your expertise.

Please forgive this question - I'm not too embarrassed to say that I
don't quite get the mechanics of this accident.

google image search of "logging accident barber chair" produced this:http://www.forestryforum.com/images/...arberchair.jpg

Is the issue that part of the tree from *below* the intended cut gets
split along with the main part of the tree and that's what swings up
with bad potential results?

There's also this youTube movie
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2YAf6...eature=related

You can see the other problem with a barber chair (other than the
potential of getting hammered by the snapping butt); you lose control
of where the tree falls. It can be hard to get out of the way of a 70
foot tree unless you can run 70 feet in under a second.

The time has come, the walrus said,
 

On Mar 23, 9:07*am, Myron Buck wrote:
On Mar 22, 9:02*am, "dr.narcolepsy" wrote:





On Mar 21, 8:45*pm, Bob wrote:

On Mar 19, 4:29*am, Giles wrote:

On Mar 19, 3:12*am, Bob wrote:

Actually the type of accident you describe (here in big timber country
we call it a barber chair) is *one of the most common causes of death
or serious injury in timber falling accidents.

Never heard the term "barber chair" before in this context. *Easy
enough to understand, though. *It's also easy to believe that it ranks
high as a cause of death or injury. *Do you have ready access to any
numbers?

*Many years ago when I was involved in logging supervision, I used to
receive regular accident reports from Oregon OSHA on serious logging
accidents. *Death & serious injury from barber chairs were always high
on the list. *I imagine OSHA still keeps such statistics.

Many
(including Birch) are quite prone to splitting as you described
sometime during the back cut - especially if they have a heavy lean.

I've seen it happen a couple of times myself. *Didn't know that birch
was a frequent offender.

Though many saw hands scoff at the practice as being sissy, the safest
way to fell such trees is to bind the butt (immediately above where
the top of the notch cut will be) with heavy duty nylon webbing (made
to handle the extreme forces involved) before starting any cuts.

This, too, is news to me. *I'd appreciate any more inofrmation you
could provide as I'll be doing a lot of cutting here in the next few
months.

I probably should have used the term strapping rather then webbing.
The type of nylon web strap that log truck drivers in many areas use
to bind down their loads is what is used. Any good saw shop in an area
where there is much commercial logging going on could make one up for
you in a size to handle the size trees you will be working with. *It
should be used on any tree with a very heavy lean (especially
hardwoods) or one with a very unbalanced crown (heavy in the direction
of fall).

The
old saying that "There are bold timber fallers and there are old
timber fallers, but few are lucky enough to be old bold timber
fallers." is quite true.

There have been times and arenas in life when I've flirted with the
bold thing. *I was lucky. *I try hard not to do that anymore. *Never
did it in connection with tree falling. *But, like just about anyone,
I suppose, I've been careless on occasion. *I don't think Karl was
particularly bold.....and he was certainly getting old at 69. *He may
or may not have been careless.....I don't know whether he had ever
heard of the practice of binding trees with webbing.

At any rate, it now looks as if this "bad luck" may have been
preventable. *Casts the whole mess in a different light.

Much to think about.

Thanks, Bob

giles

Bob Weinberger * *DuPont, WA

Hi, everyone. *Wolfgang - thanks for that story, entertaining and
thought provoking, as always. *And thanks, Bob, too, for sharing from
your expertise.

Please forgive this question - I'm not too embarrassed to say that I
don't quite get the mechanics of this accident.

google image search of "logging accident barber chair" produced this:http://www.forestryforum.com/images/...arberchair.jpg

Is the issue that part of the tree from *below* the intended cut gets
split along with the main part of the tree and that's what swings up
with bad potential results?

There's also this youTube moviehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2YAf61zz5VU&feature=related

You can see the other problem with a barber chair (other than the
potential of getting hammered by the snapping butt); you lose control
of where the tree falls. It can be hard to get out of the way of a 70
foot tree unless you can run 70 feet in under a second.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Well, I was once around munitions that were trying to cook off (catch
fire). Found out how incredibly fast a person can run over broken
ground. Don't really remember running, I do remember looking back and
noticing how far away the fire had gotten. So, 70' in a second...
yeah, got it covered.
Frank Reid

The time has come, the walrus said,
 

On Mar 23, 1:22*pm, Frank Reid © 2010 wrote:

.....70' in a second...yeah, got it covered.
Frank Reid

Um.....having read numerous accounts of (as well as personally
witnessing) events in which speeds of nearly 7 feet per second were
called for (and even accomplished.....occasionally) one is tempted to
ask, yeah, but what about collateral damage? :)

giles
who, in rare moments of wakefulness, has seen our esteemed colleague
sustain significant damage from projectiles moving at speeds nearing
the plate tectonical..

The time has come, the walrus said,
 

On 2011-03-26 23:14:38 -0400, Frank Reid � 2010 said:

As someone who has lost so many people in his life, you "wishing" for
the death of someone, a friend, is so reprehensible as to be deeply
disturbing. Why would anyone with a shred of decency do that?
Frank Reid

There are at least two folks on roff who have wished me dead. Perhaps
you can ask Wolfgang, Frank. And, why *would* anyone with a shred of
dcency do that?

Don't forget my grandchildren either. It was hoped that they too would
soon die.

But, I forgive. Just trying to correct the book keeping around these parts.

Dave
(Know anything about commercially made peacock herl ropes?)

The time has come, the walrus said,
 

On Mar 27, 7:34*pm, D. LaCourse wrote:
On 2011-03-26 23:14:38 -0400, Frank Reid 2010 said:

As someone who has lost so many people in his life, you "wishing" for
the death of someone, a friend, is so reprehensible as to be deeply
disturbing. *Why would anyone with a shred of decency do that?
Frank Reid

There are at least two folks on roff who have wished me dead. *Perhaps
you can ask Wolfgang, Frank. *And, why *would* anyone with a shred of
dcency do that?

Frank doesn't need to ask Wolfgang. Wolfgang hasn't the foggiest
notion of who either of them are. Doesn't much care either.

Don't forget my grandchildren either. *It was hoped that they too would
soon die.

And you'll get your wish. What are you bitching about?

But, I forgive.

You're a liar.....


Just trying to correct the book keeping around these parts.

......and a marginally literate evil pig.

Still, it must be comforting to know that you WILL eventually do one
thing to make the world a better place, ainna?

Dave
(Know anything about commercially made peacock herl ropes?)

You ever given any consideration to just paying someone to fish for
you?

giles
who, truth be told, doesn' really much give a rat's ass about how his
dependents spend his money......but thinks that they should, at least
once in their lives, give the matter a bit of thought.

The time has come, the walrus said,
 

On 2011-03-28 20:44:11 -0400, Giles said:

On Mar 27, 7:34*pm, D. LaCourse wrote:
On 2011-03-26 23:14:38 -0400, Frank Reid 2010 said:

As someone who has lost so many people in his life, you "wishing" for
the death of someone, a friend, is so reprehensible as to be deeply
disturbing. *Why would anyone with a shred of decency do that?
Frank Reid

There are at least two folks on roff who have wished me dead. *Perhaps
you can ask Wolfgang, Frank. *And, why *would* anyone with a shred of
dcency do that?

Frank doesn't need to ask Wolfgang. Wolfgang hasn't the foggiest
notion of who either of them are. Doesn't much care either.

Don't forget my grandchildren either. *It was hoped that they too would
soon die.

And you'll get your wish. What are you bitching about?

But, I forgive.

You're a liar.....


Just trying to correct the book keeping around these parts.

.....and a marginally literate evil pig.

Still, it must be comforting to know that you WILL eventually do one
thing to make the world a better place, ainna?

Dave
(Know anything about commercially made peacock herl ropes?)

You ever given any consideration to just paying someone to fish for
you?

giles
who, truth be told, doesn' really much give a rat's ass about how his
dependents spend his money......but thinks that they should, at least
once in their lives, give the matter a bit of thought.


Goodness, it is easy to anger you. I don't even try and you get angry.

Contrary to what you believe, Wolfgang, I do not hate you, and I have
forgiven you for any wrong you have done me. Sort of the same way with
Gehrke. I'm happy that just weeks before he died I told him I was not
angry with him. But you hate me, dontcha? Sorry about that. I hope
it doesn't consume you. When I die I will die with a clean conscience
as far as Wolfgang is concerned.

Paying someone to fish for me? Hahahaha. No, I have too much fun
exploring different parts of this great world. And you are jealous of
that, aren't you? Either jealous or envious. Hard to tell, but it
eats at you, consumes your very being, not unlike an incurable cancer.
You feel the same way about Steve. He, like I, has the disposable
income to do so, and you just can not stomach that, can you? d;o)
Franz Schubert had his syphilis and you have your hate and envy.

Like Steve said, get well, Wolfgang.

Dave

The time has come, the walrus said,
 

On Mar 28, 8:22*pm, D. LaCourse wrote:

Goodness, it is easy to anger you.

True enough. Someone did it just last week......wasn't even trying.

I don't even try and you get angry.

You are SUCH an idiot! :)

Contrary to what you believe, Wolfgang, I do not hate you,

You're a liar. Has nothing to do with what I believe.

and I have forgiven you

You're a liar. And a pig.

for any wrong you have done me.

I've done you no wrong. In fact, I have consistently made you look
better than you are. No problem, though.....it doesn't cost me
anything.

Sort of the same way with Gehrke.

Interesting comparison. George and I actually did have at least one
thing in common.....he recognized you.

I'm happy that just weeks before he died *I told him I was not
angry with him.

Maybe.....but you're a liar.

But you hate me, dontcha?

You really think you're worth that much trouble? :)

Sorry about that.

You're a liar.

I hope it doesn't consume you.

Not so far. Not as far as I can tell, anyway. Looks like all of me
is still pretty much here.

When I die I will die with a clean conscience
as far as Wolfgang is concerned.

And.....um.....we're supposed to believe that means something or
other.....right? The list of pigs that have died with a clean
conscience goes on forever. It's sort of a defining feature of pigs.

Paying someone to fish for me? *Hahahaha. *No, I have too much fun
exploring different parts of this great world. *And you are jealous of
that, aren't you? *Either jealous or envious. *Hard to tell,

Jealous or envious......yeah, boy howdy!, that IS a ****in' conundrum,
that is. You think about it for a while. Let us know what you come
up with.

but it
eats at you, consumes your very being, not unlike an incurable cancer. *
You feel the same way about Steve. *He, like I, has the disposable
income to do so, and you just can not stomach that, can you?

Actually, I derive a good deal of satisfaction from the certainty that
I will never visit the vast majority of places in this wolrd that I
would like to. Food for thought. You'll starve.

d;o) *
Franz Schubert had his syphilis

Which, rumor has it, he came by honestly enough.....it wasn't from a
lifetime of sucking at the public tit.

and you have your hate and envy.

Like Steve said, get well, Wolfgang.

Dave

You ever wonder how life might be different if you believed anything
you said?

moron.

g.
who, having taken this kind of horrendous beating many times before,
sometimes wonders what all the fuss is about.