![]() |
The time has come, the walrus said,
to speak of many things.
Don't know (or care) much about kings (though the notion of "gross national happiness" suggests Bhutan's former king, Jigme Singye Wangchuck, might be worth another look) and cabbages could keep us profitably engaged for weeks.....so we'll pass on that (for now) too. That leaves (in no particularly meaningful order) chestnuts, coulee country trout in June, and things that lend a sense of perspective to the world.....or at least to its inhabitants.....or, some of them, anyway. Let's start with the latter.....thus putting the lie to the above qualification. Yeah, some things really are more important than others, I s'pose. Roughly 48 hours ago, as I begin typing this at about 7 p.m., I arrived at home to find a robust elderly woman on the driveway end of the drawbridge.....with no vehicle in sight. The driveway is 3/4 of a mile long. There should NOT be a robust elderly woman on the driveway end of the drawbridge with no vehicle in sight. Hm........ I pull up next to her. Do you live here? she asks. Yes. She introduces herself and asks if I know her husband, Karl. Of course. I'm Wolfgang, by the way. Well, could you move your truck? The ambulance is on it's way and we need to keep the driveway clear. ????!! Karl has suffered a "BAD" accident up on the hillside. O.k., I'll drive up and see what I can do. I drive up to the barn and park next to a vehicle there. Looking off to my right I can see a figure standing on the hillside. I walk up. It's Karl's son standing next to a supine body recognizable (if only barely) as Karl. Karl is a native Finn from somewhere in Finland where they speak Swedish. Been here a long time. Married a local girl and raised good old Murrican kids. And Karl was born with a chainsaw in his hands. And now he's died (more or less) the same way. It ain't official.....yet.....there's the whole organ donor thingy to go through, but the important part of the story, for those who knew him, is over. Karl came out to the tree farm on Wednesday morning (Becky encountered him at the end of the driveway as she was leaving around 9 a.m.) to "help" Larry out by cutting down a bunch of "over mature" birch which, on any other day, he would then have cut up to sell as firewood. Karl was also scheduled to pick up his grandchildren from school at 3 p.m. somewhere less than 45 minutes drive from here. I'm not yet sure who first became concerned about his absence or exactly when, but it was eventually noticed that something was most emphatically NOT right.....and someone determined, quite correctly, that the search for the missing Karl should start here. As alluded to above, I arrived shortly after 7:00 p.m. The first EMT on the scene arrived about fifteen minutes later. In the next fifteen minutes no less than twenty cops, firefighters, EMTs and unidentified others, along with one monster ATV (they called it a UTV.....whatever the hell that might mean), two firetrucks, three squad cars and sundry other vehicles showed up. The helicopter, I'm told, was not far behind. I didn't see the latter till sometime later as it's pilot (a savvy veteran of 41 years, I was told) decided to wait out on the pavement rather than risk a landing on the soup that all too soon swallowed the rear end of the ambulance.....which proved impossible to unmire with the tractor......they got it out much later with a winch on the firetruck.....which barely made it in and out in the early spring mud. The short version is that we managed to get Karl on whatever the hell it is they call the modern version of a stretcher......I sorta forgot in all the excitement.....and seven or eight of us skidded him down the hill on the snow and lifted him into the back of the ambulance, where what would be an amazingly efficient crew, if we hadn't seen it all before, got him stabilized to the point that he could be moved out to the road.....if the ambulance hadn't gotten stuck. The UTV came to the rescue.....quite literally, of course. We all followed it out to the road in a cavalcade of slow moving vehicles.....VERY slow moving.....no need to aggravate any spinal or other severe injuries. The rest of the evening is mere details.....except for the part about the helicopter. Having worked for sixteen years at a medical facility where the helicopter crew flew an average of three to four missions a day, I thought I was used to this sort of thing. Nope. This guy had come in after lights out.....pretty much total darkness, what with the solid overcast and the time of day. And he landed this thing (and subsequently took off) under the same conditions.....with the tips of his rotors no more than twenty feet from the power lines along side of the road. Balls. 41 years. Hm.....I'm guessing I know where he growed up. Heroes. Well, they may be over there somewhere or they may not.....but they are most certainly HERE.....all around us.....every day and night. Not that it did anyone much good on this particular evening. No physician myself (let alone a neurologist), but, as noted above, I've spent a lot of time in the company of the dead and near dead. A minute or so in Karl's company on that evening was about enough to confirm the impression that he was toast. What happened, apparently (no one will ever know the details), was that Karl had an encounter with a "widow maker", a term that he may or may not have been familiar with. He certainly knew the actuality, if not the English name. The severely leaning birch tree whose base he was lying next to had been notched.....perfectly done, no problem. But somewhere in the backcut the tree split up to about eight feet above ground level. A common enough nightmare that almost always has no memorable consequences. ALMOST always. This time.....well, it bucked.....it got him.....and he'll never remember it. And the rest of us will never forget it. And then we'll got out in the woods.....with a saw.....alone (not that company would have made a difference). giles who, on second thought (roughly two hours into the exercise) will forego the trout and the chestnuts for now. oh, and lest anyone get the wrong impression, Karl was not a dear lifelong friend, not someone with whom i share a long and intimate history. we probably spent about four to eight hours in casual conversation over the last two years. he was a nice guy. |
The time has come, the walrus said,
On Fri, 18 Mar 2011 19:24:56 -0700 (PDT), Giles
wrote: to speak of many things. snipped giles who, on second thought (roughly two hours into the exercise) will forego the trout and the chestnuts for now. oh, and lest anyone get the wrong impression, Karl was not a dear lifelong friend, not someone with whom i share a long and intimate history. we probably spent about four to eight hours in casual conversation over the last two years. he was a nice guy. Thats tough. I've lost a couple friends over the years to bad luck with trees. Geo. C. |
The time has come, the walrus said,
On Mar 18, 7:24*pm, Giles wrote:
*to speak of many things. What happened, apparently (no one will ever know the details), was that Karl had an encounter with a "widow maker", a term that he may or may not have been familiar with. *He certainly knew the actuality, if not the English name. *The severely leaning birch tree whose base he was lying next to had been notched.....perfectly done, no problem. But somewhere in the backcut the tree split up to about eight feet above ground level. *A common enough nightmare that almost always has no memorable consequences. *ALMOST always. *This time.....well, it bucked.....it got him.....and he'll never remember it. *And the rest of us will never forget it. Actually the type of accident you describe (here in big timber country we call it a barber chair) is one of the most common causes of death or serious injury in timber falling accidents. Many hardwoods (including Birch) are quite prone to splitting as you described sometime during the back cut - especially if they have a heavy lean. Though many saw hands scoff at the practice as being sissy, the safest way to fell such trees is to bind the butt (immediately above where the top of the notch cut will be) with heavy duty nylon webbing (made to handle the extreme forces involved) before starting any cuts. The old saying that "There are bold timber fallers and there are old timber fallers, but few are lucky enough to be old bold timber fallers." is quite true. Bob Weinberger - DuPont, WA |
The time has come, the walrus said,
On Mar 19, 3:12*am, Bob wrote:
On Mar 18, 7:24*pm, Giles wrote: *to speak of many things. What happened, apparently (no one will ever know the details), was that Karl had an encounter with a "widow maker", a term that he may or may not have been familiar with. *He certainly knew the actuality, if not the English name. *The severely leaning birch tree whose base he was lying next to had been notched.....perfectly done, no problem. But somewhere in the backcut the tree split up to about eight feet above ground level. *A common enough nightmare that almost always has no memorable consequences. *ALMOST always. *This time.....well, it bucked.....it got him.....and he'll never remember it. *And the rest of us will never forget it. Actually the type of accident you describe (here in big timber country we call it a barber chair) is *one of the most common causes of death or serious injury in timber falling accidents. Never heard the term "barber chair" before in this context. Easy enough to understand, though. It's also easy to believe that it ranks high as a cause of death or injury. Do you have ready access to any numbers? Many hardwoods (including Birch) are quite prone to splitting as you described sometime during the back cut - especially if they have a heavy lean. I've seen it happen a couple of times myself. Didn't know that birch was a frequent offender. Though many saw hands scoff at the practice as being sissy, the safest way to fell such trees is to bind the butt (immediately above where the top of the notch cut will be) with heavy duty nylon webbing (made to handle the extreme forces involved) before starting any cuts. This, too, is news to me. I'd appreciate any more inofrmation you could provide as I'll be doing a lot of cutting here in the next few months. The old saying that "There are bold timber fallers and there are old timber fallers, but few are lucky enough to be old bold timber fallers." is quite true. There have been times and arenas in life when I've flirted with the bold thing. I was lucky. I try hard not to do that anymore. Never did it in connection with tree falling. But, like just about anyone, I suppose, I've been careless on occasion. I don't think Karl was particularly bold.....and he was certainly getting old at 69. He may or may not have been careless.....I don't know whether he had ever heard of the practice of binding trees with webbing. At any rate, it now looks as if this "bad luck" may have been preventable. Casts the whole mess in a different light. Much to think about. Thanks, Bob giles |
The time has come, the walrus said,
On Mar 19, 1:12*am, georgecleveland wrote:
On Fri, 18 Mar 2011 19:24:56 -0700 (PDT), Giles wrote: to speak of many things. snipped giles who, on second thought (roughly two hours into the exercise) will forego the trout and the chestnuts for now. oh, and lest anyone get the wrong impression, Karl was not a dear lifelong friend, not someone with whom i share a long and intimate history. *we probably spent about four to eight hours in casual conversation over the last two years. *he was a nice guy. Thats tough. I've lost a couple friends over the years to bad luck with trees. Geo. C. I've known that this sort of thing happens for a long long time. This is my first personal experience with it. My tenure here suddenly looks a lot different than it did a few days ago. giles |
The time has come, the walrus said,
Giles wrote in news:478b6b73-8443-458c-95e0-
: giles Moron!!!! ****-for-Brains!!!!! ConRad |
The time has come, the walrus said,
On Mar 19, 8:55*pm, ConwayRadis wrote:
Giles wrote in news:478b6b73-8443-458c-95e0- : giles Moron!!!! ****-for-Brains!!!!! ConRad Well, you're certainly right about one thing....."who" you are doesn't matter. But you just couldn't resist the temptation to show the world "what" you are, eh? g. |
The time has come, the walrus said,
On Mar 19, 4:29*am, Giles wrote:
On Mar 19, 3:12*am, Bob wrote: Actually the type of accident you describe (here in big timber country we call it a barber chair) is *one of the most common causes of death or serious injury in timber falling accidents. Never heard the term "barber chair" before in this context. *Easy enough to understand, though. *It's also easy to believe that it ranks high as a cause of death or injury. *Do you have ready access to any numbers? Many years ago when I was involved in logging supervision, I used to receive regular accident reports from Oregon OSHA on serious logging accidents. Death & serious injury from barber chairs were always high on the list. I imagine OSHA still keeps such statistics. Many (including Birch) are quite prone to splitting as you described sometime during the back cut - especially if they have a heavy lean. I've seen it happen a couple of times myself. *Didn't know that birch was a frequent offender. Though many saw hands scoff at the practice as being sissy, the safest way to fell such trees is to bind the butt (immediately above where the top of the notch cut will be) with heavy duty nylon webbing (made to handle the extreme forces involved) before starting any cuts. This, too, is news to me. *I'd appreciate any more inofrmation you could provide as I'll be doing a lot of cutting here in the next few months. I probably should have used the term strapping rather then webbing. The type of nylon web strap that log truck drivers in many areas use to bind down their loads is what is used. Any good saw shop in an area where there is much commercial logging going on could make one up for you in a size to handle the size trees you will be working with. It should be used on any tree with a very heavy lean (especially hardwoods) or one with a very unbalanced crown (heavy in the direction of fall). The old saying that "There are bold timber fallers and there are old timber fallers, but few are lucky enough to be old bold timber fallers." is quite true. There have been times and arenas in life when I've flirted with the bold thing. *I was lucky. *I try hard not to do that anymore. *Never did it in connection with tree falling. *But, like just about anyone, I suppose, I've been careless on occasion. *I don't think Karl was particularly bold.....and he was certainly getting old at 69. *He may or may not have been careless.....I don't know whether he had ever heard of the practice of binding trees with webbing. At any rate, it now looks as if this "bad luck" may have been preventable. *Casts the whole mess in a different light. Much to think about. Thanks, Bob giles Bob Weinberger DuPont, WA |
The time has come, the walrus said,
On Mar 21, 8:45*pm, Bob wrote:
On Mar 19, 4:29*am, Giles wrote: On Mar 19, 3:12*am, Bob wrote: Actually the type of accident you describe (here in big timber country we call it a barber chair) is *one of the most common causes of death or serious injury in timber falling accidents. Never heard the term "barber chair" before in this context. *Easy enough to understand, though. *It's also easy to believe that it ranks high as a cause of death or injury. *Do you have ready access to any numbers? *Many years ago when I was involved in logging supervision, I used to receive regular accident reports from Oregon OSHA on serious logging accidents. *Death & serious injury from barber chairs were always high on the list. *I imagine OSHA still keeps such statistics. Many (including Birch) are quite prone to splitting as you described sometime during the back cut - especially if they have a heavy lean. I've seen it happen a couple of times myself. *Didn't know that birch was a frequent offender. Though many saw hands scoff at the practice as being sissy, the safest way to fell such trees is to bind the butt (immediately above where the top of the notch cut will be) with heavy duty nylon webbing (made to handle the extreme forces involved) before starting any cuts. This, too, is news to me. *I'd appreciate any more inofrmation you could provide as I'll be doing a lot of cutting here in the next few months. I probably should have used the term strapping rather then webbing. The type of nylon web strap that log truck drivers in many areas use to bind down their loads is what is used. Any good saw shop in an area where there is much commercial logging going on could make one up for you in a size to handle the size trees you will be working with. *It should be used on any tree with a very heavy lean (especially hardwoods) or one with a very unbalanced crown (heavy in the direction of fall). The old saying that "There are bold timber fallers and there are old timber fallers, but few are lucky enough to be old bold timber fallers." is quite true. There have been times and arenas in life when I've flirted with the bold thing. *I was lucky. *I try hard not to do that anymore. *Never did it in connection with tree falling. *But, like just about anyone, I suppose, I've been careless on occasion. *I don't think Karl was particularly bold.....and he was certainly getting old at 69. *He may or may not have been careless.....I don't know whether he had ever heard of the practice of binding trees with webbing. At any rate, it now looks as if this "bad luck" may have been preventable. *Casts the whole mess in a different light. Much to think about. Thanks, Bob giles Bob Weinberger * *DuPont, WA Hi, everyone. Wolfgang - thanks for that story, entertaining and thought provoking, as always. And thanks, Bob, too, for sharing from your expertise. Please forgive this question - I'm not too embarrassed to say that I don't quite get the mechanics of this accident. google image search of "logging accident barber chair" produced this: http://www.forestryforum.com/images/...arberchair.jpg Is the issue that part of the tree from *below* the intended cut gets split along with the main part of the tree and that's what swings up with bad potential results? |
The time has come, the walrus said,
On Mar 21, 8:02*pm, "dr.narcolepsy" wrote:
On Mar 21, 8:45*pm, Bob wrote: On Mar 19, 4:29*am, Giles wrote: On Mar 19, 3:12*am, Bob wrote: Actually the type of accident you describe (here in big timber country we call it a barber chair) is *one of the most common causes of death or serious injury in timber falling accidents. Never heard the term "barber chair" before in this context. *Easy enough to understand, though. *It's also easy to believe that it ranks high as a cause of death or injury. *Do you have ready access to any numbers? *Many years ago when I was involved in logging supervision, I used to receive regular accident reports from Oregon OSHA on serious logging accidents. *Death & serious injury from barber chairs were always high on the list. *I imagine OSHA still keeps such statistics. Many (including Birch) are quite prone to splitting as you described sometime during the back cut - especially if they have a heavy lean.. I've seen it happen a couple of times myself. *Didn't know that birch was a frequent offender. Though many saw hands scoff at the practice as being sissy, the safest way to fell such trees is to bind the butt (immediately above where the top of the notch cut will be) with heavy duty nylon webbing (made to handle the extreme forces involved) before starting any cuts. This, too, is news to me. *I'd appreciate any more inofrmation you could provide as I'll be doing a lot of cutting here in the next few months. I probably should have used the term strapping rather then webbing. The type of nylon web strap that log truck drivers in many areas use to bind down their loads is what is used. Any good saw shop in an area where there is much commercial logging going on could make one up for you in a size to handle the size trees you will be working with. *It should be used on any tree with a very heavy lean (especially hardwoods) or one with a very unbalanced crown (heavy in the direction of fall). The old saying that "There are bold timber fallers and there are old timber fallers, but few are lucky enough to be old bold timber fallers." is quite true. There have been times and arenas in life when I've flirted with the bold thing. *I was lucky. *I try hard not to do that anymore. *Never did it in connection with tree falling. *But, like just about anyone, I suppose, I've been careless on occasion. *I don't think Karl was particularly bold.....and he was certainly getting old at 69. *He may or may not have been careless.....I don't know whether he had ever heard of the practice of binding trees with webbing. At any rate, it now looks as if this "bad luck" may have been preventable. *Casts the whole mess in a different light. Much to think about. Thanks, Bob giles Bob Weinberger * *DuPont, WA Hi, everyone. *Wolfgang - thanks for that story, entertaining and thought provoking, as always. *And thanks, Bob, too, for sharing from your expertise. Please forgive this question - I'm not too embarrassed to say that I don't quite get the mechanics of this accident. google image search of "logging accident barber chair" produced this:http://www.forestryforum.com/images/...arberchair.jpg Is the issue that part of the tree from *below* the intended cut gets split along with the main part of the tree and that's what swings up with bad potential results? I can't speak with any authority to what happens generally, but in Karl's case, and as I have seen before, the split occurs (or, starts, anyway) right at the place where the back cut is made. The illustration at the site you pointed us to is a bit misleading in that it doesn't show the notch, which is precisely opposite where the split has occured and where the sawyer has met his doom. Of course, the result shown can also happen without a notch having been cut at all (as shown) but common practice, as far as I know, includes notching on the side toward which the tree is intended to fall. However, this may indeed not be the case where trees lean severely and where they are intended to fall in the direction of the lean. Obviously, cutting opposite this direction will produce the intended result without a notch.....but the possible consequences (with or without the notch, for all I know) are now all too obvious. In any case, the answer to your question would appear to be no.....the split starts at the backcut and moves up through the trunk.....or so it has always been in my admittedly limited experience. Incidentally, I've seen in happen even with small trees and without any significant lean. And, unlike what is shown in the illustration, the busted end does not necessarily always simply lever up. It will often kcik back as well. Imagine the broken end actually moving toward the sawyer so that even if he were standing several feet back from where he is shown in the illustration. Depending on circumstances, he might still be toast. And, of course, it is not just whole standing trees that are dangerous. I narrowly missed being decapitated myself by a four inch cherry branch last spring. The tree was already down......dropped by a much larger oak that took several other trees with it. The cherry branch was obviously under tension.....had a significant bend to it. I misjudged the angle of the bend or the forces at play or one thing or another. I cut it and felt the wind whizzing past my left ear before the import of what had just happened (or not.....depending on point of view.....I'm glad to report that I'm in a position to take the latter) registered in my brain or Becky's; she was about fifteen feet away, waiting to load up the sawn firewood. Any way you look at it, wherever the sound of a chainsaw penetrates (or any other saw) there is danger aplenty. But then, the same can be said for any place that such sounds never reach. giles who has known all his life (on a more or less intellectual level) that one way or another they WILL get you in the end. it's just in the past few decades that a more personal and visceral point of view has come to hold sway. :) p.s. Karl died about 2 or 3 a.m. on saturday. |
The time has come, the walrus said,
On Mar 21, 7:10*pm, Giles wrote:
You've done a good job of describing the barber chair phenomenon. As you have learned, a dangerous situation exists anytime one is cutting a tree, log, or even a branch that is under tension. Binding the butt of the tree can prevent most barber chair accidents, but just as you wouldn't knowingly place yourself in line with the muzzle of a firearm just because the safety is engaged, you should never place yourself (or any part of your body) in a direct line with the direction of tension. Bob Weinberger - DuPont,WA |
The time has come, the walrus said,
Giles wrote in
: On Mar 21, 8:02*pm, "dr.narcolepsy" wrote: On Mar 21, 8:45*pm, Bob wrote: On Mar 19, 4:29*am, Giles wrote: On Mar 19, 3:12*am, Bob wrote: Actually the type of accident you describe (here in big timber coun try we call it a barber chair) is *one of the most common causes of d eath or serious injury in timber falling accidents. Never heard the term "barber chair" before in this context. *Easy enough to understand, though. *It's also easy to believe that it ra nks high as a cause of death or injury. *Do you have ready access to an y numbers? *Many years ago when I was involved in logging supervision, I used to receive regular accident reports from Oregon OSHA on serious logging accidents. *Death & serious injury from barber chairs were always hig h on the list. *I imagine OSHA still keeps such statistics. Many (including Birch) are quite prone to splitting as you described sometime during the back cut - especially if they have a heavy lean . I've seen it happen a couple of times myself. *Didn't know that bir ch was a frequent offender. Though many saw hands scoff at the practice as being sissy, the saf est way to fell such trees is to bind the butt (immediately above where the top of the notch cut will be) with heavy duty nylon webbing (ma de to handle the extreme forces involved) before starting any cuts. This, too, is news to me. *I'd appreciate any more inofrmation you could provide as I'll be doing a lot of cutting here in the next few months. I probably should have used the term strapping rather then webbing. The type of nylon web strap that log truck drivers in many areas use to bind down their loads is what is used. Any good saw shop in an area where there is much commercial logging going on could make one up for you in a size to handle the size trees you will be working with. *It should be used on any tree with a very heavy lean (especially hardwoods) or one with a very unbalanced crown (heavy in the direction of fall). The old saying that "There are bold timber fallers and there are old timber fallers, but few are lucky enough to be old bold timber fallers." is quite true. There have been times and arenas in life when I've flirted with the bold thing. *I was lucky. *I try hard not to do that anymore. * Never did it in connection with tree falling. *But, like just about anyon e, I suppose, I've been careless on occasion. *I don't think Karl was particularly bold.....and he was certainly getting old at 69. *He m ay or may not have been careless.....I don't know whether he had ever heard of the practice of binding trees with webbing. At any rate, it now looks as if this "bad luck" may have been preventable. *Casts the whole mess in a different light. Much to think about. Thanks, Bob giles Bob Weinberger * *DuPont, WA Hi, everyone. *Wolfgang - thanks for that story, entertaining and thought provoking, as always. *And thanks, Bob, too, for sharing from your expertise. Please forgive this question - I'm not too embarrassed to say that I don't quite get the mechanics of this accident. google image search of "logging accident barber chair" produced this:http ://www.forestryforum.com/images/YaBBImages/userpics/barberchair.jpg Is the issue that part of the tree from *below* the intended cut gets split along with the main part of the tree and that's what swings up with bad potential results? I can't speak with any authority to what happens generally, but in Karl's case, and as I have seen before, the split occurs (or, starts, anyway) right at the place where the back cut is made. The illustration at the site you pointed us to is a bit misleading in that it doesn't show the notch, which is precisely opposite where the split has occured and where the sawyer has met his doom. Of course, the result shown can also happen without a notch having been cut at all (as shown) but common practice, as far as I know, includes notching on the side toward which the tree is intended to fall. However, this may indeed not be the case where trees lean severely and where they are intended to fall in the direction of the lean. Obviously, cutting opposite this direction will produce the intended result without a notch.....but the possible consequences (with or without the notch, for all I know) are now all too obvious. In any case, the answer to your question would appear to be no.....the split starts at the backcut and moves up through the trunk.....or so it has always been in my admittedly limited experience. Incidentally, I've seen in happen even with small trees and without any significant lean. And, unlike what is shown in the illustration, the busted end does not necessarily always simply lever up. It will often kcik back as well. Imagine the broken end actually moving toward the sawyer so that even if he were standing several feet back from where he is shown in the illustration. Depending on circumstances, he might still be toast. And, of course, it is not just whole standing trees that are dangerous. I narrowly missed being decapitated myself by a four inch cherry branch last spring. The tree was already down......dropped by a much larger oak that took several other trees with it. The cherry branch was obviously under tension.....had a significant bend to it. I misjudged the angle of the bend or the forces at play or one thing or another. I cut it and felt the wind whizzing past my left ear before the import of what had just happened (or not.....depending on point of view.....I'm glad to report that I'm in a position to take the latter) registered in my brain or Becky's; she was about fifteen feet away, waiting to load up the sawn firewood. Any way you look at it, wherever the sound of a chainsaw penetrates (or any other saw) there is danger aplenty. But then, the same can be said for any place that such sounds never reach. giles who has known all his life (on a more or less intellectual level) that one way or another they WILL get you in the end. it's just in the past few decades that a more personal and visceral point of view has come to hold sway. :) p.s. Karl died about 2 or 3 a.m. on saturday. WTF does this irrelevant babbling about felling a MF-Tree have to do with FISHING????? I know, It's the 'old woman' in you that just can't resist the opportunity to go on, and on, about a nothing topic. All you need, you Old Bitch, is just the least bit of an chance to start up that super charged motor mouth of yours, and spew out from here to eternity! Babble on you crusty old witch!! |
The time has come, the walrus said,
On Mar 21, 9:17*pm, ConwayRadis wrote:
Giles wrote : On Mar 21, 8:02*pm, "dr.narcolepsy" wrote: On Mar 21, 8:45*pm, Bob wrote: On Mar 19, 4:29*am, Giles wrote: On Mar 19, 3:12*am, Bob wrote: Actually the type of accident you describe (here in big timber coun try we call it a barber chair) is *one of the most common causes of d eath or serious injury in timber falling accidents. Never heard the term "barber chair" before in this context. *Easy enough to understand, though. *It's also easy to believe that it ra nks high as a cause of death or injury. *Do you have ready access to an y numbers? *Many years ago when I was involved in logging supervision, I used to receive regular accident reports from Oregon OSHA on serious logging accidents. *Death & serious injury from barber chairs were always hig h on the list. *I imagine OSHA still keeps such statistics. Many (including Birch) are quite prone to splitting as you described sometime during the back cut - especially if they have a heavy lean . I've seen it happen a couple of times myself. *Didn't know that bir ch was a frequent offender. Though many saw hands scoff at the practice as being sissy, the saf est way to fell such trees is to bind the butt (immediately above where the top of the notch cut will be) with heavy duty nylon webbing (ma de to handle the extreme forces involved) before starting any cuts. This, too, is news to me. *I'd appreciate any more inofrmation you could provide as I'll be doing a lot of cutting here in the next few months. I probably should have used the term strapping rather then webbing. The type of nylon web strap that log truck drivers in many areas use to bind down their loads is what is used. Any good saw shop in an area where there is much commercial logging going on could make one up for you in a size to handle the size trees you will be working with. *It should be used on any tree with a very heavy lean (especially hardwoods) or one with a very unbalanced crown (heavy in the direction of fall). The old saying that "There are bold timber fallers and there are old timber fallers, but few are lucky enough to be old bold timber fallers." is quite true. There have been times and arenas in life when I've flirted with the bold thing. *I was lucky. *I try hard not to do that anymore. * Never did it in connection with tree falling. *But, like just about anyon e, I suppose, I've been careless on occasion. *I don't think Karl was particularly bold.....and he was certainly getting old at 69. *He m ay or may not have been careless.....I don't know whether he had ever heard of the practice of binding trees with webbing. At any rate, it now looks as if this "bad luck" may have been preventable. *Casts the whole mess in a different light. Much to think about. Thanks, Bob giles Bob Weinberger * *DuPont, WA Hi, everyone. *Wolfgang - thanks for that story, entertaining and thought provoking, as always. *And thanks, Bob, too, for sharing from your expertise. Please forgive this question - I'm not too embarrassed to say that I don't quite get the mechanics of this accident. google image search of "logging accident barber chair" produced this:http ://www.forestryforum.com/images/YaBBImages/userpics/barberchair.jpg Is the issue that part of the tree from *below* the intended cut gets split along with the main part of the tree and that's what swings up with bad potential results? I can't speak with any authority to what happens generally, but in Karl's case, and as I have seen before, the split occurs (or, starts, anyway) right at the place *where the back cut is made. *The illustration at the site you pointed us to is a bit misleading in that it doesn't show the notch, which is precisely opposite where the split has occured and where the sawyer has met his doom. *Of course, the result shown can also happen without a notch having been cut at all (as shown) but common practice, as far as I know, includes notching on the side toward which the tree is intended to fall. *However, this may indeed not be the case where trees lean severely and where they are intended to fall in the direction of the lean. *Obviously, cutting opposite this direction will produce the intended result without a notch.....but the possible consequences (with or without the notch, for all I know) are now all too obvious. In any case, the answer to your question would appear to be no.....the split starts at the backcut and moves up through the trunk.....or so it has always been in my admittedly limited experience. Incidentally, I've seen in happen even with small trees and without any significant lean. *And, unlike what is shown in the illustration, the busted end does not necessarily always simply lever up. *It will often kcik back as well. *Imagine the broken end actually moving toward the sawyer so that even if he were standing several feet back from where he is shown in the illustration. *Depending on circumstances, he might still be toast. And, of course, it is not just whole standing trees that are dangerous. *I narrowly missed being decapitated myself by a four inch cherry branch last spring. *The tree was already down......dropped by a much larger oak that took several other trees with it. *The cherry branch was obviously under tension.....had a significant bend to it. I misjudged the angle of the bend or the forces at play or one thing or another. *I cut it and felt the wind whizzing past my left ear before the import of what had just happened (or not.....depending on point of view.....I'm glad to report that I'm in a position to take the latter) registered in my brain or Becky's; she was about fifteen feet away, waiting to load up the sawn firewood. Any way you look at it, wherever the sound of a chainsaw penetrates (or any other saw) there is danger aplenty. But then, the same can be said for any place that such sounds never reach. giles who has known all his life (on a more or less intellectual level) that one way or another they WILL get you in the end. *it's just in the past few decades that a more personal and visceral point of view has come to hold sway. * * * *:) p.s. *Karl died about 2 or 3 a.m. on saturday. WTF *does this irrelevant babbling about felling a MF-Tree have to do with FISHING????? I know, It's the 'old woman' in you that just can't resist the opportunity to go on, and on, about a nothing topic. *All you need, you Old Bitch, is just the least bit of an chance to start up that super charged motor mouth of yours, and spew out from here to eternity! Babble on you crusty old witch!! And just what does your complaining about the thread have to do with FISHING??? |
The time has come, the walrus said,
On Mar 21, 11:17*pm, ConwayRadis wrote:
WTF *does this irrelevant babbling about felling a MF-Tree have to do with FISHING????? I know, It's the 'old woman' in you that just can't resist the opportunity to go on, and on, about a nothing topic. *All you need, you Old Bitch, is just the least bit of an chance to start up that super charged motor mouth of yours, and spew out from here to eternity! Babble on you crusty old witch!! Some interesting questions and observations there. And I'm sure that we could collectively address them satisfactorily if you would give us an idea of why it hurts so much to be you. I mean, we already know that it's not simply rank stupidity. We see enough of that here just about every day to know that its possessors, though intellectually and morally crippled, nevertheless manage to get through most days without doing themselves any obvious debilitating damage. Not to say that they don't suffer from obvious debilitating damage.....but we rarely see any incremental increase in that damage on any given day. Well, o.k., it isn't exactly "rarely," but you know what I mean. So, what is it? Do you have disgusting habits that you simply cannot give up despite knowing that the world disapproves? Do you have thoughts and desires that would cause family and neighbors to stone you to death if you ever gave vent to them? Is it guilt over heinous acts committed in childhood.....or well into whatever semblance of adulthood an overly generous observer might be willing to ascribe to you? Are you utterly incapable of face to face encounters with human beings? Are you paralyzed by fear at the mere thought of engaging in something as portentous as idle chatter? Are you possessed of a visage that sends women and small children shrieking into the cold dark night? Do you eat boogers? Do you carry your bottle-cap collection in your anus? Give us just a few little hints. We'll see what we can do for you. g. |
The time has come, the walrus said,
Giles wrote in
: On Mar 21, 11:17*pm, ConwayRadis wrote: WTF *does this irrelevant babbling about felling a MF-Tree have to do w ith FISHING????? I know, It's the 'old woman' in you that just can't resist the opportunit y to go on, and on, about a nothing topic. *All you need, you Old Bitch, is just the least bit of an chance to start up that super charged motor mout h of yours, and spew out from here to eternity! Babble on you crusty old witch!! Some interesting questions and observations there. And I'm sure that we could collectively address them satisfactorily if you would give us an idea of why it hurts so much to be you. I mean, we already know that it's not simply rank stupidity. We see enough of that here just about every day to know that its possessors, though intellectually and morally crippled, nevertheless manage to get through most days without doing themselves any obvious debilitating damage. Not to say that they don't suffer from obvious debilitating damage.....but we rarely see any incremental increase in that damage on any given day. Well, o.k., it isn't exactly "rarely," but you know what I mean. So, what is it? Do you have disgusting habits that you simply cannot give up despite knowing that the world disapproves? Do you have thoughts and desires that would cause family and neighbors to stone you to death if you ever gave vent to them? Is it guilt over heinous acts committed in childhood.....or well into whatever semblance of adulthood an overly generous observer might be willing to ascribe to you? Are you utterly incapable of face to face encounters with human beings? Are you paralyzed by fear at the mere thought of engaging in something as portentous as idle chatter? Are you possessed of a visage that sends women and small children shrieking into the cold dark night? Do you eat boogers? Do you carry your bottle-cap collection in your anus? Give us just a few little hints. We'll see what we can do for you. g. GOOD GOD!!!! Yet another babbling crusty old bitch that goes on, and on, and on about irrelevent BS that has nothing to do with FISHING!!!!! Babble on senile old woman! |
The time has come, the walrus said,
On Mar 22, 7:37*pm, ConwayRadis wrote:
Giles wrote : On Mar 21, 11:17*pm, ConwayRadis wrote: GOOD GOD!!!! Yet another babbling crusty old bitch that goes on, and on, and on about irrelevent BS that has nothing to do with FISHING!!!!! Babble on senile old woman! Any rational person would find it more than a little ironic that you, who has not contributed one post about fishing (at least under your current nom de plume), complains about posts that are not about fishing. |
The time has come, the walrus said,
On Mar 22, 9:37*pm, ConwayRadis wrote:
Giles wrote : On Mar 21, 11:17*pm, ConwayRadis wrote: WTF *does this irrelevant babbling about felling a MF-Tree have to do w ith FISHING????? I know, It's the 'old woman' in you that just can't resist the opportunit y to go on, and on, about a nothing topic. *All you need, you Old Bitch, is just the least bit of an chance to start up that super charged motor mout h of yours, and spew out from here to eternity! Babble on you crusty old witch!! Some interesting questions and observations there. *And I'm sure that we could collectively address them satisfactorily if you would give us an idea of why it hurts so much to be you. *I mean, we already know that it's not simply rank stupidity. *We see enough of that here just about every day to know that its possessors, though intellectually and morally crippled, nevertheless manage to get through most days without doing themselves any obvious debilitating damage. *Not to say that they don't suffer from obvious debilitating damage.....but we rarely see any incremental increase in that damage on any given day. *Well, o.k., it isn't exactly "rarely," but you know what I mean. So, what is it? *Do you have disgusting habits that you simply cannot give up despite knowing that the world disapproves? *Do you have thoughts and desires that would cause family and neighbors to stone you to death if you ever gave vent to them? *Is it guilt over heinous acts committed in childhood.....or well into whatever semblance of adulthood an overly generous observer might be willing to ascribe to you? *Are you utterly incapable of face to face encounters with human beings? *Are you paralyzed by fear at the mere thought of engaging in something as portentous as idle chatter? *Are you possessed of a visage that sends women and small children shrieking into the cold dark night? *Do you eat boogers? *Do you carry your bottle-cap collection in your anus? Give us just a few little hints. *We'll see what we can do for you. g. GOOD GOD!!!! Yet another babbling crusty old bitch that goes on, and on, and on about irrelevent BS that has nothing to do with FISHING!!!!! Another? Hm..... Exactly how many of us am I? Not that it matters much in terms of overall content, but we like to keep an accurate score. Babble on senile old woman! Oh.....whew!....for a moment there we thought you wanted us to cease. Well then.....um.....let's see now.....oh yes, I believe we were discussing your pain. You have doubtless wondered from time to time as to its ultimate origin. Invoking he widely useful paradigm of the path of least resistance (or Occam's razor, if you prefer) I'd suggest that you consider Karma, which is to say that you just plain deserve it. In any case, there's nothing you can do about. It's going to be with you for as long as you live. Well, actually, that observation DOES suggest a simple, foolproof and permanent remedy. Good luck! :) g. |
The time has come, the walrus said,
On Mar 22, 9:02*am, "dr.narcolepsy" wrote:
On Mar 21, 8:45*pm, Bob wrote: On Mar 19, 4:29*am, Giles wrote: On Mar 19, 3:12*am, Bob wrote: Actually the type of accident you describe (here in big timber country we call it a barber chair) is *one of the most common causes of death or serious injury in timber falling accidents. Never heard the term "barber chair" before in this context. *Easy enough to understand, though. *It's also easy to believe that it ranks high as a cause of death or injury. *Do you have ready access to any numbers? *Many years ago when I was involved in logging supervision, I used to receive regular accident reports from Oregon OSHA on serious logging accidents. *Death & serious injury from barber chairs were always high on the list. *I imagine OSHA still keeps such statistics. Many (including Birch) are quite prone to splitting as you described sometime during the back cut - especially if they have a heavy lean.. I've seen it happen a couple of times myself. *Didn't know that birch was a frequent offender. Though many saw hands scoff at the practice as being sissy, the safest way to fell such trees is to bind the butt (immediately above where the top of the notch cut will be) with heavy duty nylon webbing (made to handle the extreme forces involved) before starting any cuts. This, too, is news to me. *I'd appreciate any more inofrmation you could provide as I'll be doing a lot of cutting here in the next few months. I probably should have used the term strapping rather then webbing. The type of nylon web strap that log truck drivers in many areas use to bind down their loads is what is used. Any good saw shop in an area where there is much commercial logging going on could make one up for you in a size to handle the size trees you will be working with. *It should be used on any tree with a very heavy lean (especially hardwoods) or one with a very unbalanced crown (heavy in the direction of fall). The old saying that "There are bold timber fallers and there are old timber fallers, but few are lucky enough to be old bold timber fallers." is quite true. There have been times and arenas in life when I've flirted with the bold thing. *I was lucky. *I try hard not to do that anymore. *Never did it in connection with tree falling. *But, like just about anyone, I suppose, I've been careless on occasion. *I don't think Karl was particularly bold.....and he was certainly getting old at 69. *He may or may not have been careless.....I don't know whether he had ever heard of the practice of binding trees with webbing. At any rate, it now looks as if this "bad luck" may have been preventable. *Casts the whole mess in a different light. Much to think about. Thanks, Bob giles Bob Weinberger * *DuPont, WA Hi, everyone. *Wolfgang - thanks for that story, entertaining and thought provoking, as always. *And thanks, Bob, too, for sharing from your expertise. Please forgive this question - I'm not too embarrassed to say that I don't quite get the mechanics of this accident. google image search of "logging accident barber chair" produced this:http://www.forestryforum.com/images/...arberchair.jpg Is the issue that part of the tree from *below* the intended cut gets split along with the main part of the tree and that's what swings up with bad potential results? There's also this youTube movie http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2YAf6...eature=related You can see the other problem with a barber chair (other than the potential of getting hammered by the snapping butt); you lose control of where the tree falls. It can be hard to get out of the way of a 70 foot tree unless you can run 70 feet in under a second. |
The time has come, the walrus said,
On Mar 23, 9:07*am, Myron Buck wrote:
On Mar 22, 9:02*am, "dr.narcolepsy" wrote: On Mar 21, 8:45*pm, Bob wrote: On Mar 19, 4:29*am, Giles wrote: On Mar 19, 3:12*am, Bob wrote: Actually the type of accident you describe (here in big timber country we call it a barber chair) is *one of the most common causes of death or serious injury in timber falling accidents. Never heard the term "barber chair" before in this context. *Easy enough to understand, though. *It's also easy to believe that it ranks high as a cause of death or injury. *Do you have ready access to any numbers? *Many years ago when I was involved in logging supervision, I used to receive regular accident reports from Oregon OSHA on serious logging accidents. *Death & serious injury from barber chairs were always high on the list. *I imagine OSHA still keeps such statistics. Many (including Birch) are quite prone to splitting as you described sometime during the back cut - especially if they have a heavy lean. I've seen it happen a couple of times myself. *Didn't know that birch was a frequent offender. Though many saw hands scoff at the practice as being sissy, the safest way to fell such trees is to bind the butt (immediately above where the top of the notch cut will be) with heavy duty nylon webbing (made to handle the extreme forces involved) before starting any cuts. This, too, is news to me. *I'd appreciate any more inofrmation you could provide as I'll be doing a lot of cutting here in the next few months. I probably should have used the term strapping rather then webbing. The type of nylon web strap that log truck drivers in many areas use to bind down their loads is what is used. Any good saw shop in an area where there is much commercial logging going on could make one up for you in a size to handle the size trees you will be working with. *It should be used on any tree with a very heavy lean (especially hardwoods) or one with a very unbalanced crown (heavy in the direction of fall). The old saying that "There are bold timber fallers and there are old timber fallers, but few are lucky enough to be old bold timber fallers." is quite true. There have been times and arenas in life when I've flirted with the bold thing. *I was lucky. *I try hard not to do that anymore. *Never did it in connection with tree falling. *But, like just about anyone, I suppose, I've been careless on occasion. *I don't think Karl was particularly bold.....and he was certainly getting old at 69. *He may or may not have been careless.....I don't know whether he had ever heard of the practice of binding trees with webbing. At any rate, it now looks as if this "bad luck" may have been preventable. *Casts the whole mess in a different light. Much to think about. Thanks, Bob giles Bob Weinberger * *DuPont, WA Hi, everyone. *Wolfgang - thanks for that story, entertaining and thought provoking, as always. *And thanks, Bob, too, for sharing from your expertise. Please forgive this question - I'm not too embarrassed to say that I don't quite get the mechanics of this accident. google image search of "logging accident barber chair" produced this:http://www.forestryforum.com/images/...arberchair.jpg Is the issue that part of the tree from *below* the intended cut gets split along with the main part of the tree and that's what swings up with bad potential results? There's also this youTube moviehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2YAf61zz5VU&feature=related You can see the other problem with a barber chair (other than the potential of getting hammered by the snapping butt); you lose control of where the tree falls. It can be hard to get out of the way of a 70 foot tree unless you can run 70 feet in under a second.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Well, I was once around munitions that were trying to cook off (catch fire). Found out how incredibly fast a person can run over broken ground. Don't really remember running, I do remember looking back and noticing how far away the fire had gotten. So, 70' in a second... yeah, got it covered. Frank Reid |
The time has come, the walrus said,
On Mar 23, 1:22*pm, Frank Reid © 2010 wrote:
.....70' in a second...yeah, got it covered. Frank Reid Um.....having read numerous accounts of (as well as personally witnessing) events in which speeds of nearly 7 feet per second were called for (and even accomplished.....occasionally) one is tempted to ask, yeah, but what about collateral damage? :) giles who, in rare moments of wakefulness, has seen our esteemed colleague sustain significant damage from projectiles moving at speeds nearing the plate tectonical.. |
The time has come, the walrus said,
On 2011-03-26 23:14:38 -0400, Frank Reid � 2010 said:
As someone who has lost so many people in his life, you "wishing" for the death of someone, a friend, is so reprehensible as to be deeply disturbing. Why would anyone with a shred of decency do that? Frank Reid There are at least two folks on roff who have wished me dead. Perhaps you can ask Wolfgang, Frank. And, why *would* anyone with a shred of dcency do that? Don't forget my grandchildren either. It was hoped that they too would soon die. But, I forgive. Just trying to correct the book keeping around these parts. Dave (Know anything about commercially made peacock herl ropes?) |
The time has come, the walrus said,
On Mar 27, 7:34*pm, D. LaCourse wrote:
On 2011-03-26 23:14:38 -0400, Frank Reid 2010 said: As someone who has lost so many people in his life, you "wishing" for the death of someone, a friend, is so reprehensible as to be deeply disturbing. *Why would anyone with a shred of decency do that? Frank Reid There are at least two folks on roff who have wished me dead. *Perhaps you can ask Wolfgang, Frank. *And, why *would* anyone with a shred of dcency do that? Frank doesn't need to ask Wolfgang. Wolfgang hasn't the foggiest notion of who either of them are. Doesn't much care either. Don't forget my grandchildren either. *It was hoped that they too would soon die. And you'll get your wish. What are you bitching about? But, I forgive. You're a liar..... Just trying to correct the book keeping around these parts. ......and a marginally literate evil pig. Still, it must be comforting to know that you WILL eventually do one thing to make the world a better place, ainna? Dave (Know anything about commercially made peacock herl ropes?) You ever given any consideration to just paying someone to fish for you? giles who, truth be told, doesn' really much give a rat's ass about how his dependents spend his money......but thinks that they should, at least once in their lives, give the matter a bit of thought. |
The time has come, the walrus said,
On 2011-03-28 20:44:11 -0400, Giles said:
On Mar 27, 7:34*pm, D. LaCourse wrote: On 2011-03-26 23:14:38 -0400, Frank Reid 2010 said: As someone who has lost so many people in his life, you "wishing" for the death of someone, a friend, is so reprehensible as to be deeply disturbing. *Why would anyone with a shred of decency do that? Frank Reid There are at least two folks on roff who have wished me dead. *Perhaps you can ask Wolfgang, Frank. *And, why *would* anyone with a shred of dcency do that? Frank doesn't need to ask Wolfgang. Wolfgang hasn't the foggiest notion of who either of them are. Doesn't much care either. Don't forget my grandchildren either. *It was hoped that they too would soon die. And you'll get your wish. What are you bitching about? But, I forgive. You're a liar..... Just trying to correct the book keeping around these parts. .....and a marginally literate evil pig. Still, it must be comforting to know that you WILL eventually do one thing to make the world a better place, ainna? Dave (Know anything about commercially made peacock herl ropes?) You ever given any consideration to just paying someone to fish for you? giles who, truth be told, doesn' really much give a rat's ass about how his dependents spend his money......but thinks that they should, at least once in their lives, give the matter a bit of thought. Goodness, it is easy to anger you. I don't even try and you get angry. Contrary to what you believe, Wolfgang, I do not hate you, and I have forgiven you for any wrong you have done me. Sort of the same way with Gehrke. I'm happy that just weeks before he died I told him I was not angry with him. But you hate me, dontcha? Sorry about that. I hope it doesn't consume you. When I die I will die with a clean conscience as far as Wolfgang is concerned. Paying someone to fish for me? Hahahaha. No, I have too much fun exploring different parts of this great world. And you are jealous of that, aren't you? Either jealous or envious. Hard to tell, but it eats at you, consumes your very being, not unlike an incurable cancer. You feel the same way about Steve. He, like I, has the disposable income to do so, and you just can not stomach that, can you? d;o) Franz Schubert had his syphilis and you have your hate and envy. Like Steve said, get well, Wolfgang. Dave |
The time has come, the walrus said,
On Mar 28, 8:22*pm, D. LaCourse wrote:
Goodness, it is easy to anger you. True enough. Someone did it just last week......wasn't even trying. I don't even try and you get angry. You are SUCH an idiot! :) Contrary to what you believe, Wolfgang, I do not hate you, You're a liar. Has nothing to do with what I believe. and I have forgiven you You're a liar. And a pig. for any wrong you have done me. I've done you no wrong. In fact, I have consistently made you look better than you are. No problem, though.....it doesn't cost me anything. Sort of the same way with Gehrke. Interesting comparison. George and I actually did have at least one thing in common.....he recognized you. I'm happy that just weeks before he died *I told him I was not angry with him. Maybe.....but you're a liar. But you hate me, dontcha? You really think you're worth that much trouble? :) Sorry about that. You're a liar. I hope it doesn't consume you. Not so far. Not as far as I can tell, anyway. Looks like all of me is still pretty much here. When I die I will die with a clean conscience as far as Wolfgang is concerned. And.....um.....we're supposed to believe that means something or other.....right? The list of pigs that have died with a clean conscience goes on forever. It's sort of a defining feature of pigs. Paying someone to fish for me? *Hahahaha. *No, I have too much fun exploring different parts of this great world. *And you are jealous of that, aren't you? *Either jealous or envious. *Hard to tell, Jealous or envious......yeah, boy howdy!, that IS a ****in' conundrum, that is. You think about it for a while. Let us know what you come up with. but it eats at you, consumes your very being, not unlike an incurable cancer. * You feel the same way about Steve. *He, like I, has the disposable income to do so, and you just can not stomach that, can you? Actually, I derive a good deal of satisfaction from the certainty that I will never visit the vast majority of places in this wolrd that I would like to. Food for thought. You'll starve. d;o) * Franz Schubert had his syphilis Which, rumor has it, he came by honestly enough.....it wasn't from a lifetime of sucking at the public tit. and you have your hate and envy. Like Steve said, get well, Wolfgang. Dave You ever wonder how life might be different if you believed anything you said? moron. g. who, having taken this kind of horrendous beating many times before, sometimes wonders what all the fuss is about. |
All times are GMT +1. The time now is 04:08 AM. |
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2025, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004 - 2006 FishingBanter