A Plea for help & a head's up
 

Jack Tucker wrote in news:PBqZb.21552$Bv6.3517035
@news1.epix.net:

Their first attack is
directed at PA's "Delayed Harvest - Artificial Lures only"
water within the Commonwealth. This water is currently open
year round to fly fishing and spin fishing with artificial
lures; legal sized fish may be taken during the period from
June 15th to Labor Day, though most of the fishing by both
the spin fishers and fly anglers is C & R.


I don't really have any problem with the proposed regs change. Like the
discussion says, by mid June, all tackle activity should not be profound.
The delayed harvest and tackle restrictions in place until June should
really serve the same purpose they always have. I really don't see a huge
impact of this policy change, and I don't really see this as a slippery
slope problem, either. The only possible problem I see is how complex PA
regs are, but you already need a lawyer to understand the regs in place
now. This small change shouldn't make a difference.

Scott

A Plea for help & a head's up
 

"Jack Tucker" schrieb im Newsbeitrag
...

Yeah well, a fisherman is a fisherman, it does not really matter what he
fishes with. Bait fishermen have just as many rights as all the others.
Stop fighting among yourselves, and do something for the common good.

Life is really too short for all this bull****.

TL
MC

A Plea for help & a head's up
 

I agree. There is absolutely no reason why we cannot stock the living ****
out of used to be and those that still are good rivers with a single strain
of fast growing slabs of McFishes in order to trash the streamside with beer
and corn cans so some idiot can go home with a fish and say , "Ummm good."

....just one more reason I don't carry a gun.....

john

A Plea for help & a head's up
 

On Sat, 21 Feb 2004 01:21:11 +0100, "Mike Connor"
wrote:


"Jack Tucker" schrieb im Newsbeitrag
...

Yeah well, a fisherman is a fisherman, it does not really matter what he
fishes with. Bait fishermen have just as many rights as all the others.
Stop fighting among yourselves, and do something for the common good.

Life is really too short for all this bull****.

TL
MC

While I agree with the sentiment, there's a world of a difference
between a UK carp angler or a Canadian float fisher, on the one hand,
and Bubba Beer-belly (or the Canuck hoser variant) who thinks it's his
God-given right to trash the bankside, spread his garbabge about,
vacuum up all the fish, and let his shrieking wife, horde of brats,
and defecating dogs wreak havoc for anybody else who might be trying
to fish the same waters.

I don't give a **** what people use for tackle provided they respect
the resource and other people. Tackle restrictions in Canada and the
US have been put in place precisely because those that have respect,
seem to be in the minority.

Peter

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A Plea for help & a head's up
 

Lets put the shoe on the other foot......What if the areas that are now
artificial lures only were changed to bait slinging only how would you feel
then...... I believe there is a need for delayed harvest...I agree with the
regs in place now if you can figure them out...... i feel that if you buy a
license you should be able to fish any waters you run acrost we all pay the
same price for the license.... i don't believe in private waters either......
but i willsend an email supporting current regs because it does lean towards
the flyfisher...........


Handyman Mike
Standing in a river waving a stick

A Plea for help & a head's up
 

Peter Charles wrote:
"Mike Connor" wrote:

Yeah well, a fisherman is a fisherman, ...

...
I don't give a **** what people use for tackle provided they respect
the resource and other people. Tackle restrictions in Canada and the
US have been put in place precisely because those that have respect,
seem to be in the minority.

In the minority AND fly fishermen, and I for one don't have a problem
with designating certain waters off-limits to Bubba and his bait can.
But then, I'm an elitist asshole FWIW.

--
Ken Fortenberry

A Plea for help & a head's up
 

"Jack Tucker" wrote in message
...
Their first attack is
directed at PA's "Delayed Harvest - Artificial Lures only"
water within the Commonwealth. This water is currently open
year round to fly fishing and spin fishing with artificial
lures; legal sized fish may be taken during the period from
June 15th to Labor Day, though most of the fishing by both
the spin fishers and fly anglers is C & R.

[snip]
The current recommendation is that the water under consideration be opened
to "harvest" by bait fisherman during the period of June 15 through
Labor Day.

sorry, delayed harvest may be the latest "greatest' thing in trout fisheries
"management", imo, there is something seriously wrong with stocking an area
and desiginating it C&R only.

A Plea for help & a head's up
 

Peter Charles wrote:


While I agree with the sentiment, there's a world of a difference
between a UK carp angler or a Canadian float fisher, on the one hand,
and Bubba Beer-belly (or the Canuck hoser variant) who thinks it's his
God-given right to trash the bankside, spread his garbabge about,
vacuum up all the fish, and let his shrieking wife, horde of brats,
and defecating dogs wreak havoc for anybody else who might be trying
to fish the same waters.

I don't give a **** what people use for tackle provided they respect
the resource and other people. Tackle restrictions in Canada and the
US have been put in place precisely because those that have respect,
seem to be in the minority.


Maybe I'm misreading what your saying, but I don't think that special
regulations are put into place to control those who: "thinks it's his
God-given right to trash the bankside, spread his garbabge about,
vacuum up all the fish, and let his shrieking wife, horde of brats,
and defecating dogs wreak havoc for anybody else who might be trying
to fish the same waters."


IMO, special regulations, or regulations of any sort for that matter,
should be used as management techniques to protect self sustaining fish
populations, not for social engineering.

Willi

A Plea for help & a head's up
 

Wayne Knight wrote:

"Jack Tucker" wrote in message
...

Their first attack is
directed at PA's "Delayed Harvest - Artificial Lures only"
water within the Commonwealth. This water is currently open
year round to fly fishing and spin fishing with artificial
lures; legal sized fish may be taken during the period from
June 15th to Labor Day, though most of the fishing by both
the spin fishers and fly anglers is C & R.


[snip]

The current recommendation is that the water under consideration be opened
to "harvest" by bait fisherman during the period of June 15 through
Labor Day.


sorry, delayed harvest may be the latest "greatest' thing in trout fisheries
"management", imo, there is something seriously wrong with stocking an area
and desiginating it C&R only.

I agree with your sentiment. C&R seems stupid to me in a put and take
fishery.

I'm not as familiar with eastern waters as I am with those in the
Rockies, but it seems to me that there are numerous waters back east
that are being stocked that could be better managed with less stocking
and possibly more restrictive limits. Montana did a series of studies on
the effects of stocking in waters that have good natural reproduction
and found that the stocking of catchables actually reduces the number
and size of the fish in those waters.

Willi

A Plea for help & a head's up
 

On Sat, 21 Feb 2004 08:32:30 -0700, Willi wrote:



Peter Charles wrote:


While I agree with the sentiment, there's a world of a difference
between a UK carp angler or a Canadian float fisher, on the one hand,
and Bubba Beer-belly (or the Canuck hoser variant) who thinks it's his
God-given right to trash the bankside, spread his garbabge about,
vacuum up all the fish, and let his shrieking wife, horde of brats,
and defecating dogs wreak havoc for anybody else who might be trying
to fish the same waters.

I don't give a **** what people use for tackle provided they respect
the resource and other people. Tackle restrictions in Canada and the
US have been put in place precisely because those that have respect,
seem to be in the minority.


Maybe I'm misreading what your saying, but I don't think that special
regulations are put into place to control those who: "thinks it's his
God-given right to trash the bankside, spread his garbabge about,
vacuum up all the fish, and let his shrieking wife, horde of brats,
and defecating dogs wreak havoc for anybody else who might be trying
to fish the same waters."


IMO, special regulations, or regulations of any sort for that matter,
should be used as management techniques to protect self sustaining fish
populations, not for social engineering.

Willi


You are missing what I'm saying . . . Bubba Beer-belly is the type who
is also most likely to take every fish he can lay his fat, grubby,
nicotine stained fingers on. The rest of his activities simply
reflect his distain for the rest of hummanity. Regulations are in
place precisely because we have far too many people who think it's
their God-given right to take everything they can get and **** the
next guy. This isn't a class issue as the blue suit crowd is just as
culpable as the blue collars.

Peter

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A Plea for help & a head's up
 

"Willi" wrote in message
...
Wayne Knight wrote:
//snip//
sorry, delayed harvest may be the latest "greatest' thing in trout
fisheries
"management", imo, there is something seriously wrong with stocking an
area
and desiginating it C&R only.
I agree with your sentiment. C&R seems stupid to me in a put and take
fishery.

I'm not as familiar with eastern waters as I am with those in the
Rockies, but it seems to me that there are numerous waters back east
that are being stocked that could be better managed with less stocking
and possibly more restrictive limits. Montana did a series of studies on
the effects of stocking in waters that have good natural reproduction
and found that the stocking of catchables actually reduces the number
and size of the fish in those waters.


I understand the sentiment, but delayed harvest waters that are stocked in
October can be a blast to fish in in the spring. Access generally is not
very hard and after a few months in the stream the fish are fun to catch.
It's not as psychically rewarding as catching wild fish in a remote spot,
but if you have limited time and want to have a pretty good fishing
experience, it's not bad. They are especially good places to take youngsters
who are learning to fly-fish.

Frank Reid and Allen Epps posted great TRs earlier that were good
descriptions of spring-time fishing in delayed-harvest water. Don't know
that their stream was D-H, but the experience appears similar.

I suspect that most people who are taking fish do so in the summer, so
designating the water as C&R only in the winter probably prevents few of
them from fishing, but it does provide an attractive opportunity for fly
fishermen. The result, IMO, is an overall larger number of fishermen in the
course of a year, and more sales of licenses and fly fishing tackle (and
more much-needed tax revenue for the fish & game department) - revenue that
would not have happened without the delayed-harvest program. It may also be
true that streams within commuting distance of major metropolitan areas lend
themselves to delayed-harvest programs.

Bob

A Plea for help & a head's up
 

Is it possible that no matter how we fight "put and take" philosphies, there
are just too many folks who enjoy fishing to make a difference on the east
coast?

Move west young man. The attitude is different out there...somewhat.

Perhaps looking for the more remote rather than "easy access" streams are
the future of angling hobbyists?


"Peter Charles" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 21 Feb 2004 08:32:30 -0700, Willi wrote:



Peter Charles wrote:


While I agree with the sentiment, there's a world of a difference
between a UK carp angler or a Canadian float fisher, on the one hand,
and Bubba Beer-belly (or the Canuck hoser variant) who thinks it's his
God-given right to trash the bankside, spread his garbabge about,
vacuum up all the fish, and let his shrieking wife, horde of brats,
and defecating dogs wreak havoc for anybody else who might be trying
to fish the same waters.

I don't give a **** what people use for tackle provided they respect
the resource and other people. Tackle restrictions in Canada and the
US have been put in place precisely because those that have respect,
seem to be in the minority.


Maybe I'm misreading what your saying, but I don't think that special
regulations are put into place to control those who: "thinks it's his
God-given right to trash the bankside, spread his garbabge about,
vacuum up all the fish, and let his shrieking wife, horde of brats,
and defecating dogs wreak havoc for anybody else who might be trying
to fish the same waters."


IMO, special regulations, or regulations of any sort for that matter,
should be used as management techniques to protect self sustaining fish
populations, not for social engineering.

Willi


You are missing what I'm saying . . . Bubba Beer-belly is the type who
is also most likely to take every fish he can lay his fat, grubby,
nicotine stained fingers on. The rest of his activities simply
reflect his distain for the rest of hummanity. Regulations are in
place precisely because we have far too many people who think it's
their God-given right to take everything they can get and **** the
next guy. This isn't a class issue as the blue suit crowd is just as
culpable as the blue collars.

Peter

turn mailhot into hotmail to reply

Visit The Streamer Page at
http://www.mountaincable.net/~pcharl...ers/index.html

A Plea for help & a head's up
 

On Sat, 21 Feb 2004 18:35:37 GMT, "just al"
wrote:

Is it possible that no matter how we fight "put and take" philosphies, there
are just too many folks who enjoy fishing to make a difference on the east
coast?

Move west young man. The attitude is different out there...somewhat.

Perhaps looking for the more remote rather than "easy access" streams are
the future of angling hobbyists?


Don't really have a problem with put 'n' take provided they don't
ruining a stream with streamborn fish but stuffing a bunch of stockers
in it. If the stream is already put 'n' take, well have at it boys,
but don't make any more.

Some say that a stream full of streamborn fish that were once
stockers, is fair game but I disagree. If the stream was once stocked
decades ago and the current population is made up of their naturally
reproducing descedents, then stream has become, genetically, a wild
trout stream. All the crappy genetics of the stockers will have been
bred out after a decade or two. Only the hardiest stockers will
survive to produce healthy offspring. It doesn't take long for a
population based on stocked fish, to produce a unique genetic strain
that is adapted to take advantage of that particular stream. All
around the Great Lakes, any tributary that received steelhead stockers
decades ago, but has been left alone since, has adapted to its
particular natal river and produced a genetically identifiable strain
of healthy fish.

Anybody who fishes for steelhead and salmon on the Great Lakes can't
get too snooty about stockers for every damned salmonid swimming the
Great Lakes (Superior coasters excepted) is descended from stockers
(the native Atlantics were wiped out by damming, over-fishing, and
agriculture). But, once a stream has a healthy, sustainable, naturally
reproducing strain of fish, it's damn near criminal to mess that up
with a fresh influx of stockers.

I like the GRCA approach for the Grand River here. The natural
reproduction isn't high enough to maintain the population, even with
C&R, but the GRCA and the MNR, only stock the river using broodstock
taken from the same watershed. In the process, they don't **** up the
genetics too badly, though it would be better to have a fishing
moratorium for ten years and let the naturally reproducing population
establish itself. That ain't gonna happen so the they've chosen the
next best alternative.

Peter

turn mailhot into hotmail to reply

Visit The Streamer Page at http://www.mountaincable.net/~pcharl...ers/index.html

A Plea for help & a head's up
 

I am a fly fishing guide in NY (part-time). I understand your concern, but
we need to teach others rather than exclude them. As a public school
teacher I see enough exclusion daily.

But, OK. You're empassioned. Try one of these three remedies:

1. Run for public office and push for laws making greed illegal. That will
solve more than the fishing problems in the US, because fishing issues are
metaphoric of eveyday civics.

2. Make sure that everytime you see a bait fisherman, in an area you
prefer,you encroach up him/her and use your fly fishing prowess to cover
more of that water than he/she can. If fly fisherpeople take advatage of
our reach, spin/bait fisherpeople will not have enough room to fish and will
find other areas to plunk.

3. Rotate your query between trout, bass, norther pike, etc., to hone well
rounded angling skills. In the event of a trout armegeddon, you'll still
find gratification in equalling Walton's Piscatore.







"Peter Charles" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 21 Feb 2004 18:35:37 GMT, "just al"
wrote:

Is it possible that no matter how we fight "put and take" philosphies,
there
are just too many folks who enjoy fishing to make a difference on the
east
coast?

Move west young man. The attitude is different out there...somewhat.

Perhaps looking for the more remote rather than "easy access" streams are
the future of angling hobbyists?


Don't really have a problem with put 'n' take provided they don't
ruining a stream with streamborn fish but stuffing a bunch of stockers
in it. If the stream is already put 'n' take, well have at it boys,
but don't make any more.

Some say that a stream full of streamborn fish that were once
stockers, is fair game but I disagree. If the stream was once stocked
decades ago and the current population is made up of their naturally
reproducing descedents, then stream has become, genetically, a wild
trout stream. All the crappy genetics of the stockers will have been
bred out after a decade or two. Only the hardiest stockers will
survive to produce healthy offspring. It doesn't take long for a
population based on stocked fish, to produce a unique genetic strain
that is adapted to take advantage of that particular stream. All
around the Great Lakes, any tributary that received steelhead stockers
decades ago, but has been left alone since, has adapted to its
particular natal river and produced a genetically identifiable strain
of healthy fish.

Anybody who fishes for steelhead and salmon on the Great Lakes can't
get too snooty about stockers for every damned salmonid swimming the
Great Lakes (Superior coasters excepted) is descended from stockers
(the native Atlantics were wiped out by damming, over-fishing, and
agriculture). But, once a stream has a healthy, sustainable, naturally
reproducing strain of fish, it's damn near criminal to mess that up
with a fresh influx of stockers.

I like the GRCA approach for the Grand River here. The natural
reproduction isn't high enough to maintain the population, even with
C&R, but the GRCA and the MNR, only stock the river using broodstock
taken from the same watershed. In the process, they don't **** up the
genetics too badly, though it would be better to have a fishing
moratorium for ten years and let the naturally reproducing population
establish itself. That ain't gonna happen so the they've chosen the
next best alternative.

Peter

turn mailhot into hotmail to reply

Visit The Streamer Page at
http://www.mountaincable.net/~pcharl...ers/index.html

A Plea for help & a head's up
 

just al wrote:

... As a public school
teacher ...

But, OK. You're empassioned. ...

sigh

--
Ken Fortenberry

A Plea for help & a head's up
 

Yeah.

"armegeddon" s/b armageddon
"norther" s/b northern
"Piscatore" s/b Piscator

So much for an intelligently written rebuttal...

"just al" wrote in message
...
I am a fly fishing guide in NY (part-time). I understand your concern,
but
we need to teach others rather than exclude them. As a public school
teacher I see enough exclusion daily.

But, OK. You're empassioned. Try one of these three remedies:

1. Run for public office and push for laws making greed illegal. That
will
solve more than the fishing problems in the US, because fishing issues are
metaphoric of eveyday civics.

2. Make sure that everytime you see a bait fisherman, in an area you
prefer,you encroach up him/her and use your fly fishing prowess to cover
more of that water than he/she can. If fly fisherpeople take advatage of
our reach, spin/bait fisherpeople will not have enough room to fish and
will
find other areas to plunk.

3. Rotate your query between trout, bass, norther pike, etc., to hone
well
rounded angling skills. In the event of a trout armegeddon, you'll still
find gratification in equalling Walton's Piscatore.







"Peter Charles" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 21 Feb 2004 18:35:37 GMT, "just al"
wrote:

Is it possible that no matter how we fight "put and take" philosphies,
there
are just too many folks who enjoy fishing to make a difference on the
east
coast?

Move west young man. The attitude is different out there...somewhat.

Perhaps looking for the more remote rather than "easy access" streams
are
the future of angling hobbyists?


Don't really have a problem with put 'n' take provided they don't
ruining a stream with streamborn fish but stuffing a bunch of stockers
in it. If the stream is already put 'n' take, well have at it boys,
but don't make any more.

Some say that a stream full of streamborn fish that were once
stockers, is fair game but I disagree. If the stream was once stocked
decades ago and the current population is made up of their naturally
reproducing descedents, then stream has become, genetically, a wild
trout stream. All the crappy genetics of the stockers will have been
bred out after a decade or two. Only the hardiest stockers will
survive to produce healthy offspring. It doesn't take long for a
population based on stocked fish, to produce a unique genetic strain
that is adapted to take advantage of that particular stream. All
around the Great Lakes, any tributary that received steelhead stockers
decades ago, but has been left alone since, has adapted to its
particular natal river and produced a genetically identifiable strain
of healthy fish.

Anybody who fishes for steelhead and salmon on the Great Lakes can't
get too snooty about stockers for every damned salmonid swimming the
Great Lakes (Superior coasters excepted) is descended from stockers
(the native Atlantics were wiped out by damming, over-fishing, and
agriculture). But, once a stream has a healthy, sustainable, naturally
reproducing strain of fish, it's damn near criminal to mess that up
with a fresh influx of stockers.

I like the GRCA approach for the Grand River here. The natural
reproduction isn't high enough to maintain the population, even with
C&R, but the GRCA and the MNR, only stock the river using broodstock
taken from the same watershed. In the process, they don't **** up the
genetics too badly, though it would be better to have a fishing
moratorium for ten years and let the naturally reproducing population
establish itself. That ain't gonna happen so the they've chosen the
next best alternative.

Peter

turn mailhot into hotmail to reply

Visit The Streamer Page at
http://www.mountaincable.net/~pcharl...ers/index.html

A Plea for help & a head's up
 

On Sat, 21 Feb 2004 19:35:36 GMT, "just al"
wrote:

I am a fly fishing guide in NY (part-time). I understand your concern, but
we need to teach others rather than exclude them. As a public school
teacher I see enough exclusion daily.

But, OK. You're empassioned. Try one of these three remedies:

1. Run for public office and push for laws making greed illegal. That will
solve more than the fishing problems in the US, because fishing issues are
metaphoric of eveyday civics.

2. Make sure that everytime you see a bait fisherman, in an area you
prefer,you encroach up him/her and use your fly fishing prowess to cover
more of that water than he/she can. If fly fisherpeople take advatage of
our reach, spin/bait fisherpeople will not have enough room to fish and will
find other areas to plunk.

3. Rotate your query between trout, bass, norther pike, etc., to hone well
rounded angling skills. In the event of a trout armegeddon, you'll still
find gratification in equalling Walton's Piscatore.



Ya right, it flew right over your head. So let me have one more crack
at it.

I have no problems whatosever with any form of tackle. I have no
problem whatsoever with any bait fisherman who is angling in
accordance with regulations and with some respect for the environment
and the resource. I have no problem with C&K on a sustainable fishery,
I have no problem with put 'n' take on an existing put 'n' take
stream.

I do have a problem with pigs of the two-legged variety who foul our
waterways.

enuf said, the point should be clear by now . . .

if it isn't, Wolfie will be along soon to help out . . . .



Peter

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A Plea for help & a head's up
 

Shoot. It didn't go over my head. I thought it did. What I understand is
that rather than requesting petitions to keep the areas clean, you suggest
we keep the laws the way they are in order to keep the "dirty folks" out.

"Peter Charles" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 21 Feb 2004 19:35:36 GMT, "just al"
wrote:

I am a fly fishing guide in NY (part-time). I understand your concern,
but
we need to teach others rather than exclude them. As a public school
teacher I see enough exclusion daily.

But, OK. You're empassioned. Try one of these three remedies:

1. Run for public office and push for laws making greed illegal. That
will
solve more than the fishing problems in the US, because fishing issues
are
metaphoric of eveyday civics.

2. Make sure that everytime you see a bait fisherman, in an area you
prefer,you encroach up him/her and use your fly fishing prowess to cover
more of that water than he/she can. If fly fisherpeople take advatage of
our reach, spin/bait fisherpeople will not have enough room to fish and
will
find other areas to plunk.

3. Rotate your query between trout, bass, norther pike, etc., to hone
well
rounded angling skills. In the event of a trout armegeddon, you'll still
find gratification in equalling Walton's Piscatore.



Ya right, it flew right over your head. So let me have one more crack
at it.

I have no problems whatosever with any form of tackle. I have no
problem whatsoever with any bait fisherman who is angling in
accordance with regulations and with some respect for the environment
and the resource. I have no problem with C&K on a sustainable fishery,
I have no problem with put 'n' take on an existing put 'n' take
stream.

I do have a problem with pigs of the two-legged variety who foul our
waterways.

enuf said, the point should be clear by now . . .

if it isn't, Wolfie will be along soon to help out . . . .



Peter

turn mailhot into hotmail to reply

Visit The Streamer Page at
http://www.mountaincable.net/~pcharl...ers/index.html

A Plea for help & a head's up
 

just al top posted a response to his own post:

Yeah.

"armegeddon" s/b armageddon
"norther" s/b northern
"Piscatore" s/b Piscator

So much for an intelligently written rebuttal...

Pitiable. Clueless, obtuse and pitiable.

--
Ken Fortenberry

A Plea for help & a head's up
 

On Sat, 21 Feb 2004 20:36:56 GMT, "just al"
wrote:

Shoot. It didn't go over my head. I thought it did. What I understand is
that rather than requesting petitions to keep the areas clean, you suggest
we keep the laws the way they are in order to keep the "dirty folks" out.


It's still up there at 30,000 feet. Where in all of this did I ever
mention remedies?



Peter

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A Plea for help & a head's up
 

Didn't this whole discussion begin with a plea to petition the PA Fish and
Game folks about maintaining current regulations? Was this plea not
directed to thwart the attempt of a certain fishing faction? If not, then I
am totally wrong and appologize for an blood boiling. Seriously.


"Peter Charles" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 21 Feb 2004 20:36:56 GMT, "just al"
wrote:

Shoot. It didn't go over my head. I thought it did. What I understand
is
that rather than requesting petitions to keep the areas clean, you
suggest
we keep the laws the way they are in order to keep the "dirty folks" out.


It's still up there at 30,000 feet. Where in all of this did I ever
mention remedies?



Peter

turn mailhot into hotmail to reply

Visit The Streamer Page at
http://www.mountaincable.net/~pcharl...ers/index.html

A Plea for help & a head's up
 

"just al" wrote in message
...
Didn't this whole discussion begin with a plea to petition the PA Fish and
Game folks about maintaining current regulations?

well, i'll be damned if i know how it began, but my bet is there's lots
of folks who will remember, fondly, its ending.

wayno

A Plea for help & a head's up
 

"Peter Charles" wrote in message
...
While I agree with the sentiment, there's a world of a difference
between a UK carp angler or a Canadian float fisher, on the one hand,
and Bubba Beer-belly (or the Canuck hoser variant) who thinks it's his
God-given right to trash the bankside, spread his garbabge about,
vacuum up all the fish, and let his shrieking wife, horde of brats,
and defecating dogs wreak havoc for anybody else who might be trying
to fish the same waters.

This actually reminds me a great deal of my day spent trying to fish Hickory
Run last August. The garbage, noise, screaming kids running through the
stream, tripping over my line as they went....sigh

Mark



---
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A Plea for help & a head's up
 

"just al" schrieb im Newsbeitrag
...
I am a fly fishing guide in NY (part-time). I understand your concern,
but
we need to teach others rather than exclude them. As a public school
teacher I see enough exclusion daily.

But, OK. You're empassioned. Try one of these three remedies:


SNIP

As a teacher, you ought to know that the word is "impassioned".

Unlikely as it may seem, neither Mr.Charles, nor many others here, wish to
exclude anybody from anything. Their main wish is indeed that people should
behave themselves, however, and wherever they happen to fish.

If you wish to be ironic on here, especially after declaring yourself to be
a teacher, then people expect reasonable orthography at least. This
includes spelling and grammar. It also helps if the content is sensible,
and demonstrates at least basic comprehension of other people´s posts.

Anything, and everything else, is likely to prove extremely unfruitful.

This may be brought home to you in the fullness of time, or not.

TL
MC

A Plea for help & a head's up
 

Mark W. Oots wrote:

"Peter Charles" wrote:

While I agree with the sentiment, there's a world of a difference
between a UK carp angler or a Canadian float fisher, on the one hand,
and Bubba Beer-belly (or the Canuck hoser variant) who thinks it's his
God-given right to trash the bankside, spread his garbabge about,
vacuum up all the fish, and let his shrieking wife, horde of brats,
and defecating dogs wreak havoc for anybody else who might be trying
to fish the same waters.

This actually reminds me a great deal of my day spent trying to fish Hickory
Run last August. The garbage, noise, screaming kids running through the
stream, tripping over my line as they went....sigh

It reminds me of Montauk and Bennett Springs in Missouri. These
are put & take "trout parks". blech

So long as there are places for the bait Bubbas and their offspring
to catch stockers I don't have any problem at all with fly fishing
only water. In fact, I wouldn't have a problem with fly fishing by
overweight males born in 1956 and named Ken Fortenberry only waters. ;-)

--
Ken Fortenberry

A Plea for help & a head's up
 

"Wayne Harrison" wrote in
. com:


"just al" wrote in message
...
Didn't this whole discussion begin with a plea to petition the PA
Fish and Game folks about maintaining current regulations?

well, i'll be damned if i know how it began, but my bet is there's
lots
of folks who will remember, fondly, its ending.

wayno


*laugh*

Steve

A Plea for help & a head's up
 

On Sat, 21 Feb 2004 23:40:27 +0100, "Mike Connor"
wrote:

Unlikely as it may seem, neither Mr.Charles, nor many others here, wish to
exclude anybody from anything.

It does seem unlikely, you're right on that point. g
--
Charlie...

the end?
 

Word up!

Again, please accept my appology, my reply was directed to the concern for
the plea to stop regulation changes in PA and how they may impact the rest
of the USA.

My last reply to the thread:

Empassion--to move with passion; to affect strongly.

Impasssion-to arouse the passions of

I impassioned the participants in this discussion, while the person with
which I discoursed was empassioned to see his point through.

Thanks, man.

source: www.dictionary.com. 21 Feb. 2004.

ps (word games? orthography is the study of words, so the usage

If you wish to be ironic on here, especially after declaring yourself to
be
a teacher, then people expect reasonable orthography at least.

seems incorrect as well. wouldn't it be more concise to say what you mean?
cuz dude, don't make the mistakes I made today. the posts get ugly) Peace,
I'm outta here...

"Mike Connor" wrote in message
...

"just al" schrieb im Newsbeitrag
...
I am a fly fishing guide in NY (part-time). I understand your concern,
but
we need to teach others rather than exclude them. As a public school
teacher I see enough exclusion daily.

But, OK. You're empassioned. Try one of these three remedies:


SNIP

As a teacher, you ought to know that the word is "impassioned".

Unlikely as it may seem, neither Mr.Charles, nor many others here, wish
to
exclude anybody from anything. Their main wish is indeed that people
should
behave themselves, however, and wherever they happen to fish.

If you wish to be ironic on here, especially after declaring yourself to
be
a teacher, then people expect reasonable orthography at least. This
includes spelling and grammar. It also helps if the content is sensible,
and demonstrates at least basic comprehension of other people´s posts.

Anything, and everything else, is likely to prove extremely unfruitful.

This may be brought home to you in the fullness of time, or not.

TL
MC

A Plea for help & a head's up
 

On Sat, 21 Feb 2004 21:37:07 GMT, "just al"
wrote:

Didn't this whole discussion begin with a plea to petition the PA Fish and
Game folks about maintaining current regulations? Was this plea not
directed to thwart the attempt of a certain fishing faction? If not, then I
am totally wrong and appologize for an blood boiling. Seriously.


You were replying to me, I did not discuss any potential remedies.

OK, let's start from the beginning.

We have an original poster who claimed that nasty bait fishermen were
petitioning to remove all of *our* water in PA He then supplies some
details, some figures on miles of water, and some suggestions about a
course of action to counter the petition.

However, we don't know for su

1. If there is a bait fisherman's petition?
2. If there is one, what it is asking for?
3. If it is petitioning for what was claimed, what the effects will
be?
4. What are its chances of success?
5. What was the triggering event for the petition?
6. Are bait fishermans' and fly fishermans' interests actually at
loggerheads in PA?
7. If they are, why?
8. What is the actual state of relations between these two factions
(if they are indeed factions)?
9. If anything really needs to be done?
10. If there will be any negative consequences if nothing is done?
11. Are the figures quoted actually correct?
12. Are the rest of the facts correct?
13. Is the imputed influence of letter writers opposing the petiton
really of consequence?

Etc.

Before I leapt right to dealing with remedies, I'd like a few answers
to the above and I decided to start with the nature of the bait vs.
fly relationship. Is there really an issue about this in PA? I don't
know. So I wrote some semi-provocative posts about the nature of the
relationship in the hope that the replies might shed some light.
Perhaps a PA angler with more information would step forth. Perhaps a
PA angler I know and who I can rely upon to relate factual
information, will confirm or deny the statements made by the original
poster. Without at least a few answers to the above, I consider any
discussion about remedies to be totally pointless.

Capisca?






Peter

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A Plea for help & a head's up
 

Thanks, Peter. I learned how to argue and debate on a news server.
Seriously. Thanks.
"Peter Charles" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 21 Feb 2004 21:37:07 GMT, "just al"
wrote:

Didn't this whole discussion begin with a plea to petition the PA Fish
and
Game folks about maintaining current regulations? Was this plea not
directed to thwart the attempt of a certain fishing faction? If not, then
I
am totally wrong and appologize for an blood boiling. Seriously.


You were replying to me, I did not discuss any potential remedies.

OK, let's start from the beginning.

We have an original poster who claimed that nasty bait fishermen were
petitioning to remove all of *our* water in PA He then supplies some
details, some figures on miles of water, and some suggestions about a
course of action to counter the petition.

However, we don't know for su

1. If there is a bait fisherman's petition?
2. If there is one, what it is asking for?
3. If it is petitioning for what was claimed, what the effects will
be?
4. What are its chances of success?
5. What was the triggering event for the petition?
6. Are bait fishermans' and fly fishermans' interests actually at
loggerheads in PA?
7. If they are, why?
8. What is the actual state of relations between these two factions
(if they are indeed factions)?
9. If anything really needs to be done?
10. If there will be any negative consequences if nothing is done?
11. Are the figures quoted actually correct?
12. Are the rest of the facts correct?
13. Is the imputed influence of letter writers opposing the petiton
really of consequence?

Etc.

Before I leapt right to dealing with remedies, I'd like a few answers
to the above and I decided to start with the nature of the bait vs.
fly relationship. Is there really an issue about this in PA? I don't
know. So I wrote some semi-provocative posts about the nature of the
relationship in the hope that the replies might shed some light.
Perhaps a PA angler with more information would step forth. Perhaps a
PA angler I know and who I can rely upon to relate factual
information, will confirm or deny the statements made by the original
poster. Without at least a few answers to the above, I consider any
discussion about remedies to be totally pointless.

Capisca?






Peter

turn mailhot into hotmail to reply

Visit The Streamer Page at
http://www.mountaincable.net/~pcharl...ers/index.html

A Plea for help & a head's up
 

Peter Charles wrote in
:

Capisca?


*tweet* intentional foul*
Mid-thread language change
(Or are you trying to morph the thread into a recipe by
introducing salad items ;-)


Al is awarded one unchallenged extrapolation.


Steve (mmmm...capsicum )

A Plea for help & a head's up
 

On 21 Feb 2004 23:58:19 GMT, Stephen Welsh
wrote:

Peter Charles wrote in
:

Capisca?


*tweet* intentional foul*
Mid-thread language change
(Or are you trying to morph the thread into a recipe by
introducing salad items ;-)


Al is awarded one unchallenged extrapolation.


Steve (mmmm...capsicum )

awww, it wa my first offence, can't you let me off just this once,

puulleeese????

Peter

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A Plea for help & a head's up
 

Peter Charles wrote in
:

On 21 Feb 2004 23:58:19 GMT, Stephen Welsh
wrote:

Peter Charles wrote in
m:

Capisca?


*tweet* intentional foul*
Mid-thread language change
(Or are you trying to morph the thread into a recipe by
introducing salad items ;-)


Al is awarded one unchallenged extrapolation.


Steve (mmmm...capsicum )

awww, it wa my first offence, can't you let me off just this once,

puulleeese????

Peter

turn mailhot into hotmail to reply

Visit The Streamer Page at
http://www.mountaincable.net/~pcharl...ers/index.html


[whisper]Given the judge is unlikely to make the distinction
between a challenged and unchallenged extrapolation
I wouldn't worry about it [/whisper]... and let that be a lesson to you.
The judges decision is final and no correspondence will be ...

D'OH!

Steve

A Plea for help & a head's up
 

"Peter Charles" wrote in message
...

. . . Bubba Beer-belly is the type who
is also most likely to take every fish he can lay his fat, grubby,
nicotine stained fingers on....

Yeah, them ****in' smokers should all be shot!

Wolfgang

A Plea for help & a head's up
 

On Sat, 21 Feb 2004 18:35:18 -0600, "Wolfgang"
wrote:


"Peter Charles" wrote in message
.. .

. . . Bubba Beer-belly is the type who
is also most likely to take every fish he can lay his fat, grubby,
nicotine stained fingers on....

Yeah, them ****in' smokers should all be shot!

Wolfgang


you quit all of a sudden?



Peter

turn mailhot into hotmail to reply

Visit The Streamer Page at http://www.mountaincable.net/~pcharl...ers/index.html

A Plea for help & a head's up
 

On Sat, 21 Feb 2004 22:03:31 GMT, "Wayne Harrison" wrote:


"just al" wrote in message
...
Didn't this whole discussion begin with a plea to petition the PA Fish and
Game folks about maintaining current regulations?

well, i'll be damned if i know how it began, but my bet is there's lots
of folks who will remember, fondly, its ending.

wayno

Why - is someone finally gonna drag out ol' Cluebringer and flail away?

/daytripper (a merciful ending to a heading-for-supercilious thread...)

A Plea for help & a head's up
 

On Sat, 21 Feb 2004 18:35:18 -0600, "Wolfgang" wrote:


"Peter Charles" wrote in message
.. .

. . . Bubba Beer-belly is the type who
is also most likely to take every fish he can lay his fat, grubby,
nicotine stained fingers on....

Yeah, them ****in' smokers should all be shot!

Save yer ammo, my body is telling me I'm pretty much already there.

/daytripper (creaking along the path...)

A Plea for help & a head's up
 

"Ken Fortenberry" wrote


In the minority AND fly fishermen, and I for one don't have a problem
with designating certain waters off-limits to Bubba and his bait can.


.... in the minority.... for sure

but, while tackle USED ( years ago) to be a good indicator of ethical
maturity, I no longer believe it is. The last few years I've seen as
high an incidence of truly poor conduct in fly fishermen as in bait guys

MY belief is that this is becoming more the case because Fly Fishing USED to
be a far more difficult to get into, and to actually do. It was also seen
as a bit dorky and "odd," the opposite of "in."

Thus, the vast majority of FFers were outdoorsmen that had already matured
through the "greed years" that seem to afflict most of us fishermen and
hunters early in our development. And, had matured past the need to "fit
in" with their peers.

Like the duck hunter that starts doing anything remotely legal to "get a
limit" and gradually evolves into a guy that insists on only shooting at
perfectly decoying drake birds and sets restrictions on his tools and
methods FAR more stringent than the law, the FF used to be an outdoorsman
that had matured past greed.

They had matured past it and were looking for ways to find a more intimate
relationship with their prey and all of Nature. They started FFing for
that reason, because of the new maturity they found in themselves ... it was
a self imposed restriction born of that maturity ( NEVER to be confused with
just old ... there are lots of very immature old people :-).

In this modern FF age, many, many, people are going directly into FFing,
....without maturing, as outdoorsmen, beforehand. FFing is now very "in"
and thus appeals to those that desire to impress. and to follow the crowd,
( neither are good signs when looking for ethics) and it's now extremely
easy to get into... there is a fly shop on every other corner and 15 videos
at the library.

IME, these new mode FFers are bringing that "me, me, me, more, more, all
mine, all MINE " greed that I USED to associate with PowerBait and corn to
the FFonly waters in great numbers.

They may be religious about C&R but they have NOT really matured past the
PBandC attitudes of greed.

It's not that they are intrinsically less ethical than the beginning
fishermen of years past, they simply are bringing "beginner level"
outdoorsman ethics to a sport, Fly Fishing, that traditionally was NOT a
place beginners hung out, in numbers.

FWIW, I too consider myself an elitist asshole, picky about my outdoors
companions, BUT, I find I have to actually observe individual character and
actions to choose those I care to be associated with ... tackle is no
longer much of a clue
.......... something I find rather sad.

A Plea for help & a head's up
 

Peter wonders:
Perhaps a PA angler with more information would step forth. Perhaps a
PA angler I know and who I can rely upon to relate factual
information, will confirm or deny the statements made by the original
poster.

um, barring any such reliable source....
Here's the deal, as I see it. Yes, there have been a few recent efforts,
petition and otherwise, to alter the regs on PA's "delayed harvest" waters.
This has dated back over the past 3 years, at least. This is at least the
second such call for a response to this "outrage". If one wishes to dig through
ROFF archives, you will probably locate a rather testy response to a previous,
similar plea by me. Now, to go through some of Peter's questions:
If it is petitioning for what was claimed, what the effects will be?
None, from the fishes point of view. Without a doubt, only a very good bait
angler would succeed at landing most of
the 14 inch plus fish needed for keeping size, most such anglers are good
sportsmen, as are most fly/lure anglers.

What are its chances of success?
PA finds change a slow process, to date.

Are bait fishermans' and fly fishermans' interests actually at
loggerheads in PA?
Not to my mind.


Is the imputed influence of letter writers opposing the petiton
really of consequence
Yes, if said fishermen wish to help reinforce the stereotype of fly anglers as
stuffy snobs who generalize about bait or
hardware anglers. This case would, to my mind, argue strongly for keeping
silent and emphasizing the important regulations already in place. To wit:
littering, poaching
and trespassing laws. One's method of fishing does not dictate one's level of
civility astream. I can show the assembled
ROFF audience plenty of thoughtless assholes with fly-rods in hand, on most any
trout stream in PA. Bait fishing in no way affects that fact.

hope this helps,
Tom
......every bit as empassioned as the next
guy.....BTW, Al, ignore the flames and
come on down to Penn's in May.

A Plea for help & a head's up
 

"Larry L" wrote in message
...

but, while tackle USED ( years ago) [snip]
FFing is now very "in"

Perhaps you have a copy of Arnold Gringrich's "the Joys of Trout" laying
around somewhere, re-read the preface.

FWIW, I too consider myself an elitist asshole, picky about my outdoors
companions, BUT, I find I have to actually observe individual character
and
actions to choose those I care to be associated with ... tackle is no
longer much of a clue
......... something I find rather sad.


what i find rather sad is that you would even try and use the appearance of
one's tackle a clue as to your desire to be associated with someone. Some of
use learned a long time of the adage not to judge a book by it's cover.