Yesterday Afternoon
 

Got out for a couple hours yesterday afternoon. It was a cloudy, misty
afternoon and my home river has started to rise but is still clear. The
conditions that helped the firefighters control our local fire also
seemed perfect for an Olives hatch.

When I got to the river, I found lots of Olives hatching but nothing
rising for them. The river risen several inches, but it had also gotten
much colder. Although the fish weren't feeding ontop, they were
aggressively chasing the nymphs. Fishing was VERY good and many of the
takes were aggressive enough to send my indicator streaking across the
current.

I had gone to the newly opened section of river that Charlie and I
fished a couple of weeks ago. (I think that one of the Rainbows was the
same one that both Charlie caught when we were there last time) This
stretch fishes very much like the section in town fished a number of
years ago. Maybe something like I picture in New Zealand in terms of
fish population - lots of dead water with not very many fish per mile
but all of them good ones. I hooked eight fish and landed 6 - one
sixteen inches the rest over 18 with one VERY fine Brown that threw the
hook on a jump. The jumping was unusual too. Several of the Rainbows
porpoised across the top but the two Browns I hooked were the only ones
that jumped.

With the influx of a bit of extra water, the fish have just started to
move out of their Winter holes. They are still concentrated in those
areas but have spread themselves out a bit. Gonna be a fun stretch of
water.

Willi

Yesterday Afternoon
 

Green, yep green, with envy. I'd love to have a "home stream" that I could
take seriously.

Just curious, when you say "olives" I assume you mean baetis, one of the
swimmer mayfly nymphs. Do you present your pattern with any "action" or
dead drift? I've always just fished a PT dead drift, ( or tried to, my
nymphing skills don't justify using the word 'skill' ) but your skitter on
top posts made me think that maybe you are working differently down below,
too G

Yesterday Afternoon
 

Larry L wrote:

Green, yep green, with envy. I'd love to have a "home stream" that I could
take seriously.

Just curious, when you say "olives" I assume you mean baetis, one of the
swimmer mayfly nymphs. Do you present your pattern with any "action" or
dead drift? I've always just fished a PT dead drift, ( or tried to, my
nymphing skills don't justify using the word 'skill' ) but your skitter on
top posts made me think that maybe you are working differently down below,
too G



I'm not too up on Latin names but supposedly the "Olives" are made up of
Baetis and some other I don't remember. However, use of the two Latin
names is misleading and even the common label Olives is misleading.
Maybe small gray Mayfly might be better.

Locally they hatch out throughout most of the year in various
permutations. They range from of a size 17 down to a 26. Wing colors
range from very light to very dark gray. Body color is mainly shades of
gray with some olive and rust. So functionally, the name covers a wide
range of bugs, whether or not the scientific name is the same or not is
irrelevant, IMO.

Back to your question. Since this class of bugs is so important on my
home river, I fish it alot and use a variety of flies. How I fish it
depends on what part of the hatch the fish are concentrating on. When
there are bugs out but no surface activity, a dead drifted PT usually
works. They seem less fussy in terms of fly type, and to some degree
size, at this stage partly because they're often feeding in faster
water. If they're up in the water column or making splashy rises (this
is generally in areas of less current) a wet hackle or an RS2 emerger
type pattern works well. I generally fish them on a dropper under a dry
generally dead drifted but sometime the fish will key in on a swing.
However, a skittering fly generally doesn't work. When they feeding on
top, sometimes they key in on emergers in the film and sometimes on the
duns. You can usually see if they're taking duns by following some duns
on the surface and see if they're taken or ignored. Unless there's wind
pushing them around, they usually want a totally dead drifted fly. The
three types of flies I fish on top are CDC comparaduns, parachutes and
standard hackled dries.

Willi

Yesterday Afternoon
 

"Willi" wrote

I'm not too up on Latin names but supposedly the "Olives" are made up of
Baetis and some other I don't remember. However, use of the two Latin
names is misleading and even the common label Olives is misleading.
Maybe small gray Mayfly might be better.

Locally they hatch out throughout most of the year in various
permutations. They range from of a size 17 down to a 26. Wing colors
range from very light to very dark gray. Body color is mainly shades of
gray with some olive and rust. So functionally, the name covers a wide
range of bugs, whether or not the scientific name is the same or not is
irrelevant, IMO.


I certainly don't sit around talking Latin much, and most certainly don't
use Latin to "be impressive". "PMD," for instance, is pretty universally
used to mean two species that look alike and vary only in size. I'd prefer
to say "size 18 PMD" than one of the Latin names, since my words will likely
convey my meaning simply and without resorting to silly over complication.
But, IMO, the second paragraph above is a classic example of why we "should"
use Latin, at times.

If you, or anyone else, says "blue winged olive" I'm given very little real
information. Say I want to come fish with you and you tell me to tie up
some "olives" .... without several other paragraphs to define "olive" in the
current usage I don't know what size or color, do I? But, tell me Baetis
tricaudatis is hatching and I'm much better informed .... or can be with
some research.

BTW, for years I've been urging those I know in retriever trials to
standardize the language of training, for exactly the same reason.
Communication ( having your meaning understood, if not agreed with ) depends
on using language that is universally understood, and ( as we see so often
on Usenet), the honest desire to actually communicate, as opposed to argue,
or "win."

Rex Carr and Mike Lardy are THE two field trial trainers of all time ( Rex,
now dead, was my mentor ) and they only spent 3 days together, several years
back, when Mike came out specifically to met Rex. I was the only other
person there most of that three days, and at one point they bickered for 3/4
hour over a point, before agreeing to disagree, from mutual respect. The
sadly amusing thing was that from the "outside" it was clear that they were
using the same words (push and pull) to mean different things and that lack
of standardized training language was keeping communication from happening
between two greats of the activity.

In a like manner, I think there are times when the Latin is useful .....
"caddis" includes both Hydropsyche and Glossosoma and both may be active on
the same water at the same time ..... telling me you nailed em last night on
caddis doesn't help me as much as some Latin would ( assuming we were both
accurate in our use of the scientific names )

Still Green ( a grayish, rusty shade ;-), and tied fat on a big hook ...
yours truly

Yesterday Afternoon
 

Larry L wrote:



I certainly don't sit around talking Latin much, and most certainly don't
use Latin to "be impressive". "PMD," for instance, is pretty universally
used to mean two species that look alike and vary only in size. I'd prefer
to say "size 18 PMD" than one of the Latin names, since my words will likely
convey my meaning simply and without resorting to silly over complication.
But, IMO, the second paragraph above is a classic example of why we "should"
use Latin, at times.

If you, or anyone else, says "blue winged olive" I'm given very little real
information. Say I want to come fish with you and you tell me to tie up
some "olives" .... without several other paragraphs to define "olive" in the
current usage I don't know what size or color, do I? But, tell me Baetis
tricaudatis is hatching and I'm much better informed .... or can be with
some research.


I disagree. I think that Latin just needlessly complicates things and
MANY of our aquatic insect species aren't even identified and named.

I brought in a sample of a huge Mayfly that comes off at sunset in the
middle of Summer to a professor of entomology at our university. He was
unable to identify it and wasn't aware of any local species that large.
(I need to check back with him and see if he ever did identify it.

Getting back to Olives - if you wanted to know the correct size and
color etc, you would have to know a number of species and subspecies (if
they are all even recognized). I'm also guessing there is size and color
difference in different strains of the same species. WAY too complicated
for me.

My suggestion would be for example: a size 20 gray winged gray bodied
Mayfly.

Willi

Yesterday Afternoon
 

Willi wrote:

My suggestion would be for example: a size 20 gray winged gray bodied
Mayfly.

If they're gray, why are they called "olives"? THAT'S confusing.

--
Cut "to the chase" for my email address.

Yesterday Afternoon
 

"Willi" wrote in message
...
Got out for a couple hours yesterday afternoon. It was a cloudy, misty
afternoon and my home river has started to rise but is still clear. The
conditions that helped the firefighters control our local fire also
seemed perfect for an Olives hatch.


Nice report. I look forward to reading more as you become familiar with
this new water.

Cheers,
Bill

Yesterday Afternoon
 

Willi wrote:



My suggestion would be for example: a size 20 gray winged gray bodied
Mayfly.


and my request would be...tell me if it's a #20 parachute adams, a #14
ehc, etc. ... screw the fancy bug names, tell me about the size, the
color, and the flies you're using.

i might eventually be able to learn, remember, and spout the latin names
(mangled by southern speak), but what's the point? i'm fishing, trying
to catch fish, not presenting a lecture or trying to wow anyone with my
knowledge of latin bug names. i have a real fondness for fellas like
warren, makela, walt, pj, wayno, you, wolfgang, etc. who probably know
the scientific details but simply say those bugs look like a griffith's
gnat might work or a 16 humpy or something like that. perhaps you're
just making accommodations for this nitwit or others like me, but in my
ever-expanding experience, latin ain't the universal language of
flyfishers. for whatever reason, i've never thought being able to name
the bug meant as much as an ability to simply find the artificial (and i
don't know all those names either) that best mimics whatever the fish
are eating or might eat. whatever gratification the ability to identify
a bug by its scientific name provides, it's a pleasure of very personal
and limited utility among most fisher folk. for me, it's in the doin,
not the sayin.

one of the best examples i remember was the salmon fishing on the rapid
about 3 or 4 years ago when peter charles and daytripper and 3 or 4
others tied up some 24s and 26s to imitate the tiny little nit the fish
were gorging on - i called it a peter's nit. no one identified the bug
as a chironomid, ephemerella, or whatever latin identifier they probably
knew. instead, it was "looks like a 24 or 26, dark body, black, with a
wing". they went back to the cabins, tied some tiny flies they thought
would do the trick, and we had a fishin fiesta. that was fun.

jeff

Yesterday Afternoon
 

"Jeff Miller" wrote

one of the best examples i remember was the salmon fishing on the rapid
about 3 or 4 years ago when peter charles and daytripper and 3 or 4
others tied up some 24s and 26s to imitate the tiny little nit the fish
were gorging on - i called it a peter's nit. no one identified the bug
as a chironomid, ephemerella, or whatever latin identifier they probably
knew. instead, it was "looks like a 24 or 26, dark body, black, with a
wing". they went back to the cabins, tied some tiny flies they thought
would do the trick, and we had a fishin fiesta. that was fun.

good point, and one that we in the hatch challenged southern
appalachians often disregard.

if you tell him i posted this story, i will have to kill you; unless, of
course, you do, and he gets to me first. anyway, me and pj were fishing on
snowbird one time in the early 90's during the ncaa tournament (the heels
lost to kansas in the final four), and we slogged for a couple hours,
catching nothing, fishing royal wulffs and yellow humpies, our favored
patterns during the year past. i had bought a streamside insect identifier
from orvis, and jim razzed my ass incessantly about being a dillettante. i
became bored/tired, and just sat down on a rock, watching him continue to do
a perfectly fine imitation of a 40 horse evinrude, relentlessly moving
upstream. i began to notice the growing presence of a small mayfly coming
off the water. i was initially stunned, since the sight of any bug other
than a dark caddis that time of year was very unusual. i managed to grab
one without totally smushing it, and put my little book to work. long story
short, i was in the midst of a hatch of paraleptophebia ------ (i can't
recall the last part--maybe adoptiva), which the book suggested was a
"little blue dun". i searched my box, and tied on a 16 adams parachute, the
closest i could come to "matching the hatch". it will come as no surprise
that i caught back up with jim, and began to slay the browns in front of his
ever widening eyes. his initial frustration turned to panic, and then
anger. he stopped fishing, and yelled over at me, "what in the **** are you
using?" i responded, "oh, just something that my book suggested---haven't
you noticed the paraleptophebias?" he kept that big ol ****eatin grin on
his face all the way across the creek, and was still smiling as he tore my
rod from my hands and gave me his. i just tied on another adams, and we
headed upstream together.

since then, i have been a firm believer in "matching the hatch", even in
our sterile waters.

yfitons
wayno

Yesterday Afternoon
 

"Wayne Harrison" wrote...

"Jeff Miller" wrote

one of the best examples i remember was the salmon fishing on the rapid
about 3 or 4 years ago when peter charles and daytripper and 3 or 4
others tied up some 24s and 26s to imitate the tiny little nit the fish
were gorging on - i called it a peter's nit. no one identified the bug
as a chironomid, ephemerella, or whatever latin identifier they probably
knew. instead, it was "looks like a 24 or 26, dark body, black, with a
wing". they went back to the cabins, tied some tiny flies they thought
would do the trick, and we had a fishin fiesta. that was fun.

good point, and one that we in the hatch challenged southern
appalachians often disregard.

if you tell him i posted this story, i will have to kill you; unless, of
course, you do, and he gets to me first. anyway, me and pj were fishing on
snowbird one time in the early 90's during the ncaa tournament (the heels
lost to kansas in the final four), and we slogged for a couple hours,
catching nothing, fishing royal wulffs and yellow humpies, our favored
patterns during the year past. i had bought a streamside insect identifier
from orvis, and jim razzed my ass incessantly about being a dillettante. i
became bored/tired, and just sat down on a rock, watching him continue to do
a perfectly fine imitation of a 40 horse evinrude, relentlessly moving
upstream. i began to notice the growing presence of a small mayfly coming
off the water. i was initially stunned, since the sight of any bug other
than a dark caddis that time of year was very unusual. i managed to grab
one without totally smushing it, and put my little book to work. long story
short, i was in the midst of a hatch of paraleptophebia ------ (i can't
recall the last part--maybe adoptiva), which the book suggested was a
"little blue dun". i searched my box, and tied on a 16 adams parachute, the
closest i could come to "matching the hatch". it will come as no surprise
that i caught back up with jim, and began to slay the browns in front of his
ever widening eyes. his initial frustration turned to panic, and then
anger. he stopped fishing, and yelled over at me, "what in the **** are you
using?" i responded, "oh, just something that my book suggested---haven't
you noticed the paraleptophebias?" he kept that big ol ****eatin grin on
his face all the way across the creek, and was still smiling as he tore my
rod from my hands and gave me his. i just tied on another adams, and we
headed upstream together.

since then, i have been a firm believer in "matching the hatch", even in
our sterile waters.

Both fine stories and fun to read. That is pretty much how I like to fish, but I
get into trouble when the fish are feeding on what's under the surface. Every
once in a while I get lucky and tie on the right thing at the right time, or
some companion will point me in the right direction, but I much prefer dry fly
fishing.
--
TL,
Tim
------------------------
http://css.sbcma.com/timj

Yesterday Afternoon
 

rw wrote in message thlink.net...

If they're gray, why are they called "olives"? THAT'S confusing.

FFmen are nothing if not imaginative and poetic...the wings aren't
blue, either. Who wants to fish with a "grey-winged grey"? :-)

Jon.

Yesterday Afternoon
 

Wayne Harrison wrote:

if you tell him i posted this story, i will have to kill you; unless, of
course, you do, and he gets to me first. and then
anger. he stopped fishing, and yelled over at me, "what in the **** are you
using?" i responded, "oh, just something that my book suggested---haven't
you noticed the paraleptophebias?" he kept that big ol ****eatin grin on
his face all the way across the creek, and was still smiling as he tore my
rod from my hands and gave me his. i just tied on another adams, and we
headed upstream together.


These stories you guys tell of PJ from time to time ARE entertaining. I
especially like how you're able to portray him as such an endearing fellow!

Willi

Yesterday Afternoon
 

rw wrote:
Willi wrote:


My suggestion would be for example: a size 20 gray winged gray bodied
Mayfly.


If they're gray, why are they called "olives"? THAT'S confusing.



Yeah I agree. At least locally most of the bodies are much more gray
than olive. Sometimes they are completely gray and sometimes they have a
bit of olive in them. IMO, (because of the name I think) most
commercially tied flies are too olive in color. If you use the complete
common name, blue wing olives, it gets even more confusing. Some of the
ties for BWO's I've seen actually use blue hackle, blue wings and a
bright olive body. They'll probably catch some fish but don't look
anything like the flies I see.

Willi

Yesterday Afternoon
 

"Willi" wrote

I disagree. I think that Latin just needlessly complicates things and
MANY of our aquatic insect species aren't even identified and named.

snip
My suggestion would be for example: a size 20 gray winged gray bodied
Mayfly.


that is a fine suggestion .... it's not the Latin or "science" that I
advocate... it's useful information

When I do know the species involved, I find I like to use the Latin. I'm
sure this is partly "snob", partly because I tend more towards "hatch
matcher" fishing and places when it tends to matter more ( presentation
still most important, of course ) and partly just personal quirk. But,
"callibaetis" ( a bug I fish in many locations Calif to Wyoming ) tells me a
lot more than "size 16 tan mayfly" and in 3 less words G. It tells me
lots about the nymph, dun, and spinner, likely hatch time, and type of
location on the stream, and it tells me that a parachute Adams will likely
work or a hares ear nymph, and it tells me what to try to get more accurate
if those patterns are rejected.

However, of course, if I don't know the species named, or just as
importantly, only know the name for purposes of sounding impressive ( like
computer knowledge ... I can say "bios" and sometimes do to sound cool, but
I don't have a friggin clue what it means ;) and not really anything about
the bug .... then "size 16 olive body dark gray wing" says FAR more than
Ephemerella Madeupus in usable information.

On reflection, I guess that I have to admit that DESCRIPTIONS are likely to
be far more useful for more people, more often, than the Latin. But,
"common names" often suck and "Blue Winged Olive" is one that sucks harder
than most ... since it's used world wide to name many different mayflies,
with very different habits and habitat preferences, a huge range of sizes,
and most of them aren't olive or have blue wings G

I guess in many cases I'm wrong about common names too ...."mother's day
caddis" for instance is one I've only heard used to refer to Brachycentrus
....therefore the common name is just as useful and more pleasant and
"romantic" than the Latin ( I think romance is important ... there is very
little romance in "drowning a worm," lots in "fishing the Mother's Day
Caddis" ... romance is part of FF's image/ fact / magic )

Yesterday Afternoon
 

Wayne Harrison wrote:

"Jeff Miller" wrote


one of the best examples i remember was the salmon fishing on the rapid
about 3 or 4 years ago when peter charles and daytripper and 3 or 4
others tied up some 24s and 26s to imitate the tiny little nit the fish
were gorging on - i called it a peter's nit. no one identified the bug
as a chironomid, ephemerella, or whatever latin identifier they probably
knew. instead, it was "looks like a 24 or 26, dark body, black, with a
wing". they went back to the cabins, tied some tiny flies they thought
would do the trick, and we had a fishin fiesta. that was fun.


good point, and one that we in the hatch challenged southern
appalachians often disregard.

if you tell him i posted this story, i will have to kill you; unless, of
course, you do, and he gets to me first. anyway, me and pj were fishing on
snowbird one time in the early 90's during the ncaa tournament (the heels
lost to kansas in the final four), and we slogged for a couple hours,
catching nothing, fishing royal wulffs and yellow humpies, our favored
patterns during the year past. i had bought a streamside insect identifier
from orvis, and jim razzed my ass incessantly about being a dillettante. i
became bored/tired, and just sat down on a rock, watching him continue to do
a perfectly fine imitation of a 40 horse evinrude, relentlessly moving
upstream. i began to notice the growing presence of a small mayfly coming
off the water. i was initially stunned, since the sight of any bug other
than a dark caddis that time of year was very unusual. i managed to grab
one without totally smushing it, and put my little book to work. long story
short, i was in the midst of a hatch of paraleptophebia ------ (i can't
recall the last part--maybe adoptiva), which the book suggested was a
"little blue dun". i searched my box, and tied on a 16 adams parachute, the
closest i could come to "matching the hatch". it will come as no surprise
that i caught back up with jim, and began to slay the browns in front of his
ever widening eyes. his initial frustration turned to panic, and then
anger. he stopped fishing, and yelled over at me, "what in the **** are you
using?" i responded, "oh, just something that my book suggested---haven't
you noticed the paraleptophebias?" he kept that big ol ****eatin grin on
his face all the way across the creek, and was still smiling as he tore my
rod from my hands and gave me his. i just tied on another adams, and we
headed upstream together.

since then, i have been a firm believer in "matching the hatch", even in
our sterile waters.

yfitons
wayno


Any snipage would be wrong. The above stuff is why I keep hangin' around
this place.

Thanks guys,

Russell

Yesterday Afternoon
 

Willi wrote:



rw wrote:

Willi wrote:


My suggestion would be for example: a size 20 gray winged gray bodied
Mayfly.



If they're gray, why are they called "olives"? THAT'S confusing.



Yeah I agree. At least locally most of the bodies are much more gray
than olive. Sometimes they are completely gray and sometimes they have a
bit of olive in them. IMO, (because of the name I think) most
commercially tied flies are too olive in color. If you use the complete
common name, blue wing olives, it gets even more confusing. Some of the
ties for BWO's I've seen actually use blue hackle, blue wings and a
bright olive body. They'll probably catch some fish but don't look
anything like the flies I see.



Doesn't it depend on if your talking about green olives or ripe olives? :-)

Russell

Yesterday Afternoon
 

"Jeff Miller" wrote in message
news:Cvxcc.12811$pM1.735@lakeread06...


...i have a real fondness for fellas like
warren, makela, walt, pj, wayno, you, wolfgang, etc. who probably
know
the scientific details...

Not guilty and falsely accused, counselor. I can correctly paste the
Latin binomials on exactly two bugs......one of them because I think
it's a good idea to know the name of anything that looks big enough to
hurt me, and the other because I've never heard it referred to by any
other name.

That said, I agree that there is no good practical reason to make a
fetish of learning all of the bugs' true names (and it's probably bad
juju anyway), but some of us do derive some satisfaction from that
sort of things for various more esoteric reasons. I've always been in
love with trees. I've forgotten a lot in the last twenty years, but I
used to know the Latin binomials for virtually all of the native
species as well as a few dozen more or less common introduced species
in this area. It never did me any earthly good whatsoever beyond
boring companions nearly to death with a never ending string of what
they doubtless considered pretentious gibberish.......reason enough,
in my book. :)

Wolfgang

Yesterday Afternoon
 

"Wolfgang" wrote

one of them because I think
it's a good idea to know the name of anything that looks big enough to
hurt me,

snip
That said, I agree that there is no good practical reason to make a
fetish of learning all of the bugs' true names (and it's probably bad
juju anyway), but some of us do derive some satisfaction from that
sort of things for various more esoteric reasons.

If I tell you that the lake 2 miles from here has a Hexagenia limbata hatch
and the bass feed on the nymphs and somewhat on the duns .... does that
prepare a mid-westerner to fish that activity better than "big yellow may"

Do you have a pretty damn good idea what nymph and dun patterns would likely
work? What size "big" is? What time of day to be there? What bottom type
the bug prefers and thus can limit your search to those types?

I agree that to a large extent that the Latin is often the opposite of
valuable, since it DEcreases real communication ( and bores others and makes
one appear snobby ;-) unless both parties have real knowledge linked to
those Latin words. And I agree that a lot of the value lies simply in the
"more esoteric reasons" But, I think they is good practical reason ....
at times, anyway .... to learn more about the bugs and their names,
especially if one wants to communicate with others on the subject.

Um, I just flashed on a thought

I can barely walk many days and just had my knee "imaged." When the
radiologist sends his report to the Dr that will suggest "cut or no cut" I'd
FAR prefer that he send that report in the scientific language that he and
the doc both use exactly the same than to say " the guy's got a bum knee"
scientific accuracy in wording, and Latin namimg, has advantages G

Taxonomy is the first science and the study of most fields starts with
learning the language of that field. In my case, learning more about the
bugs, including latin names, increases my fun and enjoyment. If that isn't
the case for others than they shouldn't do so

Yesterday Afternoon
 

Russell wrote:

Doesn't it depend on if your talking about green olives or ripe olives? :-)

Right. The nymphs are totally different from the spinners.

--
Cut "to the chase" for my email address.

Yesterday Afternoon
 

"Mark Tinsky" wrote


Thanx for the useful info I ll be using it on the Missouri any day.



Post a report. I've only been to the Missouri one trip for 4 or 5 days and
plan to get back there. The more info I can get on the place the better.
It and the Big Horn are both places I think I could learn to love, but both
of them are a LOT of miles past a LOT of good fishin' holes when one is
coming from Arnoldifornica

( although I'm one of those guys that sometimes fails to catch many fish
because of info-overload ... I get sidetracked and stop fishing to 'just
look' pretty often ... but catching fish really isn't my main reason for
fishing, most days .... honest ;-)

Yesterday Afternoon
 

Wolfgang wrote:
It never did me any earthly good whatsoever beyond
boring companions nearly to death with a never ending string of what
they doubtless considered pretentious gibberish.......reason enough,
in my book. :)

ah... comforting to know some things never change. bseg

jeff (still ciphering on october dates for the smokies)

Yesterday Afternoon
 

Willi wrote:



These stories you guys tell of PJ from time to time ARE entertaining. I
especially like how you're able to portray him as such an endearing fellow!



think "skinner box" and you'll understand...

jeff

Yesterday Afternoon
 

"Jeff" wrote in message
link.net...


Wolfgang wrote:
It never did me any earthly good whatsoever beyond
boring companions nearly to death with a never ending string of
what
they doubtless considered pretentious gibberish.......reason
enough,
in my book. :)

ah... comforting to know some things never change. bseg

Everybody needs a niche. :)

jeff (still ciphering on october dates for the smokies)

Becky is off from the 9th through the 31th. It would be nice if we
can keep it between those dates.

Wolfgang

Yesterday Afternoon
 

Yesterday Afternoon
 

rw wrote:

Russell wrote:


Doesn't it depend on if your talking about green olives or ripe
olives? :-)


Right. The nymphs are totally different from the spinners.

very, very funny!!...esp.to one who despises the mere existence of any
olive of any variety...

jeff

Yesterday Afternoon
 

On Tue, 06 Apr 2004 20:32:30 GMT, Jeff wrote:



Willi wrote:



These stories you guys tell of PJ from time to time ARE entertaining. I
especially like how you're able to portray him as such an endearing fellow!



think "skinner box" and you'll understand...

I think it's more like "Stockholm Syndrome"...

Yesterday Afternoon
 

Larry L wrote:



If I tell you that the lake 2 miles from here has a Hexagenia limbata hatch
and the bass feed on the nymphs and somewhat on the duns .... does that
prepare a mid-westerner to fish that activity better than "big yellow may"

no... but if you say the bugs look like size 8 yellow humpies (i've
never seen one of those, btw), i'd have a good clue from your words.
wayne knight showed me some hex flies once...they looked like sparrows.


Do you have a pretty damn good idea what nymph and dun patterns would likely
work? What size "big" is? What time of day to be there? What bottom type
the bug prefers and thus can limit your search to those types?

much too complicated for me and my fishing adventures, but i admire your
intellectual spunk...


I agree that to a large extent that the Latin is often the opposite of
valuable, since it DEcreases real communication ( and bores others and makes
one appear snobby ;-) unless both parties have real knowledge linked to
those Latin words.

and, truth be told, it's a very limited...some would claim,
elite...group of folks, eh? might as well require white gloves and
french for fishing discussions... parlez vous francais?

And I agree that a lot of the value lies simply in the
"more esoteric reasons" But, I think they is good practical reason ....
at times, anyway .... to learn more about the bugs and their names,
especially if one wants to communicate with others on the subject.

who are you communicating with? entomologists? i suspect yiddish would
be every bit as effective in such communications with the vast majority
of folks who are passionate about the fishing...


Um, I just flashed on a thought

I can barely walk many days and just had my knee "imaged." When the
radiologist sends his report to the Dr that will suggest "cut or no cut" I'd
FAR prefer that he send that report in the scientific language that he and
the doc both use exactly the same than to say " the guy's got a bum knee"
scientific accuracy in wording, and Latin namimg, has advantages G


do you honestly think that is a true or even helpful analogy with regard
to our specific fishing and flies conversation? c'mon larry... most
fishermen aren't entomologists; however, all orthopedic surgeons
are...well, you see what i mean?

Taxonomy is the first science and the study of most fields starts with
learning the language of that field. In my case, learning more about the
bugs, including latin names, increases my fun and enjoyment.

and, lest i be misunderstood, i accept and believe that is a good and
sufficient and even admirable reason for your or anyone else's mastery
of the latin taxonomy of bugs. however, we were talking effective or
useful communication among a group of fishermen, few of whom are
entomologists.

If that isn't
the case for others than they shouldn't do so

jeff

Yesterday Afternoon
 

On Wed, 07 Apr 2004 07:25:38 -0400, Jeff Miller
wrote:

however, we were talking effective or
useful communication among a group of fishermen, few of whom are
entomologists.

Just open your fly box and have someone point out which fly to use.
--
Charlie...

Yesterday Afternoon
 

Wolfgang wrote:



Becky is off from the 9th through the 31th. It would be nice if we
can keep it between those dates.

thirty oneth?? ok... in proper and due deference to becky, let's
tentatively set the time for the 2004 Carolina Anti-Clave Accretion
(CACA) from october 8 - october 17? unless of course, others or becky
have a better suggestion. all flyfishers here or there - anarchists,
contrarians, introverts, the gregarious, drunks, effetes, entomologists,
*******s, eunuchs, satyrs, whores, virgins, whatever - are invited. btw,
oct 12 is my birthday...presents are not optional.

jeff

Wolfgang

Yesterday Afternoon
 

"Jeff Miller" wrote...
Larry L wrote:
snip
And I agree that a lot of the value lies simply in the
"more esoteric reasons" But, I think they is good practical reason ....
at times, anyway .... to learn more about the bugs and their names,
especially if one wants to communicate with others on the subject.

who are you communicating with? entomologists? i suspect yiddish would
be every bit as effective in such communications with the vast majority
of folks who are passionate about the fishing...

I was going to suggest pig-latin.
--
ight-tay ines-lay,
Tim
------------------------
http://css.sbcma.com/timj

Yesterday Afternoon
 

"Jeff Miller" wrote...
Wolfgang wrote:

Becky is off from the 9th through the 31th. It would be nice if we
can keep it between those dates.

thirty oneth?? ok... in proper and due deference to becky, let's
tentatively set the time for the 2004 Carolina Anti-Clave Accretion
(CACA) from october 8 - october 17? unless of course, others or becky
have a better suggestion. all flyfishers here or there - anarchists,
contrarians, introverts, the gregarious, drunks, effetes, entomologists,
*******s, eunuchs, satyrs, whores, virgins, whatever - are invited.

What about me?

btw, oct 12 is my birthday...presents are not optional.

How do you feel about a slightly used matching Penns hat and t-shirt set?
--
TL,
Tim
------------------------
http://css.sbcma.com/timj

Yesterday Afternoon
 

Charlie Choc wrote:

On Wed, 07 Apr 2004 07:25:38 -0400, Jeff Miller
wrote:


however, we were talking effective or
useful communication among a group of fishermen, few of whom are
entomologists.


Just open your fly box and have someone point out which fly to use.

works for me...but, i'd much prefer they open theirs and give me the fly
to use. works for indian joe.... do you see a pattern here?

jeff (a/k/a, oblomov)

Yesterday Afternoon
 

Tim J. wrote:

"Jeff Miller" wrote...

Wolfgang wrote:

Becky is off from the 9th through the 31th. It would be nice if we
can keep it between those dates.

thirty oneth?? ok... in proper and due deference to becky, let's
tentatively set the time for the 2004 Carolina Anti-Clave Accretion
(CACA) from october 8 - october 17? unless of course, others or becky
have a better suggestion. all flyfishers here or there - anarchists,
contrarians, introverts, the gregarious, drunks, effetes, entomologists,
*******s, eunuchs, satyrs, whores, virgins, whatever - are invited.


What about me?

y'all's one of them "whatever's", aintcha?



btw, oct 12 is my birthday...presents are not optional.


How do you feel about a slightly used matching Penns hat and t-shirt set?

excellent... um, so long as the shirt aint got nipple slots yet...

jeff

Yesterday Afternoon
 

On Wed, 07 Apr 2004 08:10:25 -0400, Jeff Miller
wrote:

works for me...but, i'd much prefer they open theirs and give me the fly
to use. works for indian joe....

Yeah, but I didn't get that far in his charm school. g I'm thankful
if they'll just show me which of mine is closest to the correct fly.
--
Charlie...

Yesterday Afternoon
 

Well some of my replies to others in this thread have already admitted that
I somewhat agree ...discriptions stand the best chance of wide understanding

but .. I'm bored and have some time to kill, so,
I say "horse pucky" G

To talk about things we need to name them .... you can call the big scary
bug a "Michigan Caddis" a "big yellow humpy" a "Hexagenia"
or a "big scary bug" All those will work for some people.

The very fact that you got from Hexagenia to "big yellow humpy" proves that
the Latin word DID convey information from my typing fingers to your
scanning eyes and you DO have enough "entomology" knowledge about that bug
to use the Latin.

I have no way of knowing whether you would have gotten from "Michigan
Caddis" to "big yellow humpy" but the idea that you have to look at a bugs
gonads under a microscope to consistently call it by the same name is far
from accurate, and further from what I'm saying.

I have been in Polly Rosborough's house when he "described" Hexagenia as
"Big Floppy Yellow May" .... I have been in Craig Matthews shop when he
told a customer that asked what fly to use that a PMD was a "big yellow
mayfly"
..... Hexs and PMDs are at least as close as #8 woolybuggers and #18
Griffiths Gnats G ( which ain't really that different, are they ?)

As I read your post my phone rang and the phone is near a book shelf with FF
books on it ..... I was drawn to notice that at least 90% of those books
have some Latin in them that the authors must have felt helped them
communicate.

I grabbed the first one I noticed that seemed the LEAST "high
tech... " How to Fish from Top to Bottom" by Sid Gordon (1955 )and randomly
( no **** now, I kid you not, it was random and I nearly fell over, myself )
opened it to page 319

I quote

"Dry Flies
(Ephemeroptera )

The Keene Mayfly
( Hexagenia )"

followed by a recipe .... so since many guys want to refer to bugs by
pattern names .... our Hex could be called a Keene Mayfly, too g ( honest
it was random ) and obviously Gordon included the Latin for some reason...
to "impress" me? or to inform me?

I think that to a large extent the demographics and needs of "a group of
fishermen" varies across different parts of the country, and water types.
When I fish small mountain freestone streams in the Sierra I carry 4 or 5
patterns and decide what to fish based on my mood, ... finding the fish is
the game, they eat whatever goes by.

But where I fish most, MOST conversations between fishermen or
fishermen and shop clerks revolve around the bugs, a one level or another
and MOST include some Latin words. It's rare to met a FFer ... that is
catching fish ... that doesn't clearly understand the bugs and use some
Latin in his conversation on places like the Fork or Silver Creek.

Calling a "Speckled Wing Dun" a "callibaetis" doesn't require more intense
study of entomology ... you still have to have enough practical knowledge of
species characteristics to CONSISTENTLY apply the same name to the same bug
....regardless of the name you use.

Latin names are just names, names that make research easier. IF SOMEDAY
you care to know that a Hex is a burrower and needs a silt bottom .. knowing
it's a Hexagenia will lead to that info faster than "Keene's Mayfly"

Last point I offer to ponder ( and I'm not arguing g, I agree that the
Latin doesn't suit you and yours) you said "the vast majority
of folks who are passionate about the fishing..." and my instant reaction
was ... "I only started learning about the bugs when my interest grew to the
level of 'passion' ... before that I just wanted to catch fish"

I think you just hate Latin g maybe you were forced to study it and
didn't want to? maybe you tried to eat too much of it at one sitting and
got sick g? or more likely, I'd bet, it just doesn't fit you image of
what fishin' should be

-- --------
"Fishing should be a ceremony that reaffirms our place in the natural world
and helps us resist further estrangement from our origins."
-- Thomas McGuane--
-------------

That comes as close as any single sentence I've found to summing up my idea
of fishing .... a search for greater interaction with Nature .... and a
chance to get away from "man's-****"
..... and frankly it ****es the crap outta me when
guys show up dragging all their "man-****" with them, cell phones, gps, high
tech underwear, yada yada yada .... I just want to scream "Why the ****
don't you just stay in your little air conditioned room and jack off your
harddrive, you dildo ?"

Perhaps ? ( just a guess, I'm likely wrong ) your image of fishin' is as a
"good ole boy" activity, a different kind of return to "roots" and "fancy
soundin' Latin" words somehow offend and conflict with that image and make
you mad in the same way?


PS I know my distaste for the SSS crowd is largely irrational ..... but I
still dislike them .... and I think it's fine if hearing Latin while fishing
is like chalk screeched across a blackboard to your ears ... YOUR fishing
should be what YOU want it to be

End of boring time wasting postG

Yesterday Afternoon
 

"Jeff Miller" wrote in message
news:TXRcc.174$rY5.31@lakeread06...


Wolfgang wrote:



Becky is off from the 9th through the 31th. It would be nice if
we
can keep it between those dates.

thirty oneth?? ok... in proper and due deference to becky, let's
tentatively set the time for the 2004 Carolina Anti-Clave Accretion
(CACA) from october 8 - october 17?

Works for me.

unless of course, others or becky
have a better suggestion. all flyfishers here or there -
anarchists,
contrarians, introverts, the gregarious, drunks, effetes,
entomologists,
*******s, eunuchs, satyrs, whores, virgins, whatever - are invited.
btw,
oct 12 is my birthday...presents are not optional.

Hm.....that leaves required or prohibited......do we get to pick?
:)

Wolfgang

Yesterday Afternoon
 

larry - since i think most of your comments were directed at or in
response to my rant, let me top post for convenience and say the following:

1. i love stream of conscious stuff. you should do it more often.
excellent work. it wasn't a bit boring to me.

2. i have nothing against anyone's desire to know the latin taxonomy of
bugs, flowers, trees, or anything. but... if communication is your
goal, latin limits your audience.

3. i have seen one hexagenia in my life. it was in wisconsin in the
company of several folks much smarter than me, all of whom gathered
together as a consequence of this bizarre place known as roff, who
certainly knew what it was. as one of the great unwashed from the
south, i thought it was a bat. they said it was a "hexagenia
(limbata?)". i said, "fuk you, that's a vampire bat." in my defense, it
was night, we were drinking a bit (joel carries some nectar in a flask),
and none of us was concerned about helping the other with anything to do
with catching a trout, but it was a memorable moment for me. that fly
wayne knight showed me in a cabin on alarka creek in the smokies of nc
was the right size after all. still, it was a unique thing... not at all
like parsing the mayfly or caddis variants in latin.

4. to talk about things, no doubt about it, words is what we need.
however, selecting the precise words that we need to communicate
effectively requires more than just talking in the unique words we know
from intense study or effort, or more than just assuming that the latin
names of a particular taxonomy have common meaning to a fishing
audience. i suspect most fly fisher-men or -women know more about a
light cahill style fly than they do about a stenacron canadense, don't
you?

5. for some reason, many authors of fly fishing books (i'm not
including entomology books or books geared to scientific precision in
descriptions) feel a need to use the latin names. i've never found it
helpful to the story or the explanation or the instruction. it seemed an
affectation, a wart. obvious, but not practical or useful to my fishing.
because a writer used a latin name is not compelling evidence to me...
it was unnecessary in most instances (many writers use latin names only
in parentheses - a recognition it is an aside comment). for me, and i
believe i'm typical of the majority of readers of flyfishing literature,
the taxonomy is excess and not memorable. but, if the author says, i
saw some tiny gnat-like bugs, so i used a #20 griffith's gnat (or a #24
peter's nit), well, i've got his/her meaning.

6. does "understanding the bugs" require a knowledge of latin names?
again, if i see a yellow bug flying about, i'll try to match it in size
and color and shape. i don't think being told it's an ephemerella
invaria tells me anything useful to my fishing efforts.

7. fishing in nc is tres different than fishing on penns, the rapid in
maine, henrys fork in idaho, or the madison. (i've fished them). still,
i've caught a bunch of fish on all of these streams (well, not that many
on henrys fork) using well-known flies and without any ability in
identifying the bugs by latin name schemes. i doubt any person who
knows all of the taxonomy had any more fun fishing those places than i,
and i think i had an appreciation and enjoyment of the places, bugs,
landscape, water, vegetation, and fish equalling any entomologist
fishing those streams, despite an inability to identify a bug's name.

8. i don't hate latin... it has a use in figuring out the meaning of
words from time to time, i'm told. g but the bug latin...well, it has
no meaning to me in any practical sense. i'm not an entomologist or a
scientist or an artist or much of anything. most of the fishing
audience is like me. if you want to talk to us, help us, inform us
about fishing, then "quill gordon" is communication; "epeorus pleuralis"
is not. it seems an intellectual exercise for you... sorta like the
satisfaction i get from a crossword puzzle or cryptoquote.
self-satisfaction, even passionate self-satisfaction (ok, ok, i know) is
a selfish pursuit. i have no doubt bug latin is useful for bug scientist
communication and understanding...there are way too many bugs to
identify, name, and categorize. it's just not helpful to me or many of
the passionate fisherfolk i know when trying to communicate about our
fishing. i find it off-putting. (but, i have had some fun telling pj his
alosa sappidissima looked like an alosa mediocritus...)

9. i admit my view of all this reveals my personal limitations and
ignorance about bugs in particular, and other things in general...it's
just the tip of the iceberg of my stupidity. no argument, my image of
fishing, and the reality of what's important to me about fishing, isn't
latin bug names. here's an analogy for you - my knowledge of and ability
to comment on the wonders of the bartolin's gland hasn't added to my
pleasure one bit, and i doubt it would mean much to most folks if i said
"if you're fishin in those waters, you might wanna wax your rod...the
bartolin's aint too active".

10. i hope to fish with or near you one of these days. i've learned
something useful from everyone i've been privileged to fish with or
observe fishing. i'm a fishing "tabula rasa".

jeff



Larry L wrote:

Well some of my replies to others in this thread have already admitted that
I somewhat agree ...discriptions stand the best chance of wide understanding

but .. I'm bored and have some time to kill, so,
I say "horse pucky" G

To talk about things we need to name them .... you can call the big scary
bug a "Michigan Caddis" a "big yellow humpy" a "Hexagenia"
or a "big scary bug" All those will work for some people.

The very fact that you got from Hexagenia to "big yellow humpy" proves that
the Latin word DID convey information from my typing fingers to your
scanning eyes and you DO have enough "entomology" knowledge about that bug
to use the Latin.

I have no way of knowing whether you would have gotten from "Michigan
Caddis" to "big yellow humpy" but the idea that you have to look at a bugs
gonads under a microscope to consistently call it by the same name is far
from accurate, and further from what I'm saying.

I have been in Polly Rosborough's house when he "described" Hexagenia as
"Big Floppy Yellow May" .... I have been in Craig Matthews shop when he
told a customer that asked what fly to use that a PMD was a "big yellow
mayfly"
.... Hexs and PMDs are at least as close as #8 woolybuggers and #18
Griffiths Gnats G ( which ain't really that different, are they ?)

As I read your post my phone rang and the phone is near a book shelf with FF
books on it ..... I was drawn to notice that at least 90% of those books
have some Latin in them that the authors must have felt helped them
communicate.

I grabbed the first one I noticed that seemed the LEAST "high
tech... " How to Fish from Top to Bottom" by Sid Gordon (1955 )and randomly
( no **** now, I kid you not, it was random and I nearly fell over, myself )
opened it to page 319

I quote

"Dry Flies
(Ephemeroptera )

The Keene Mayfly
( Hexagenia )"

followed by a recipe .... so since many guys want to refer to bugs by
pattern names .... our Hex could be called a Keene Mayfly, too g ( honest
it was random ) and obviously Gordon included the Latin for some reason...
to "impress" me? or to inform me?

I think that to a large extent the demographics and needs of "a group of
fishermen" varies across different parts of the country, and water types.
When I fish small mountain freestone streams in the Sierra I carry 4 or 5
patterns and decide what to fish based on my mood, ... finding the fish is
the game, they eat whatever goes by.

But where I fish most, MOST conversations between fishermen or
fishermen and shop clerks revolve around the bugs, a one level or another
and MOST include some Latin words. It's rare to met a FFer ... that is
catching fish ... that doesn't clearly understand the bugs and use some
Latin in his conversation on places like the Fork or Silver Creek.

Calling a "Speckled Wing Dun" a "callibaetis" doesn't require more intense
study of entomology ... you still have to have enough practical knowledge of
species characteristics to CONSISTENTLY apply the same name to the same bug
...regardless of the name you use.

Latin names are just names, names that make research easier. IF SOMEDAY
you care to know that a Hex is a burrower and needs a silt bottom .. knowing
it's a Hexagenia will lead to that info faster than "Keene's Mayfly"

Last point I offer to ponder ( and I'm not arguing g, I agree that the
Latin doesn't suit you and yours) you said "the vast majority
of folks who are passionate about the fishing..." and my instant reaction
was ... "I only started learning about the bugs when my interest grew to the
level of 'passion' ... before that I just wanted to catch fish"

I think you just hate Latin g maybe you were forced to study it and
didn't want to? maybe you tried to eat too much of it at one sitting and
got sick g? or more likely, I'd bet, it just doesn't fit you image of
what fishin' should be

-- --------
"Fishing should be a ceremony that reaffirms our place in the natural world
and helps us resist further estrangement from our origins."
-- Thomas McGuane--
-------------

That comes as close as any single sentence I've found to summing up my idea
of fishing .... a search for greater interaction with Nature .... and a
chance to get away from "man's-****"
.... and frankly it ****es the crap outta me when
guys show up dragging all their "man-****" with them, cell phones, gps, high
tech underwear, yada yada yada .... I just want to scream "Why the ****
don't you just stay in your little air conditioned room and jack off your
harddrive, you dildo ?"

Perhaps ? ( just a guess, I'm likely wrong ) your image of fishin' is as a
"good ole boy" activity, a different kind of return to "roots" and "fancy
soundin' Latin" words somehow offend and conflict with that image and make
you mad in the same way?


PS I know my distaste for the SSS crowd is largely irrational ..... but I
still dislike them .... and I think it's fine if hearing Latin while fishing
is like chalk screeched across a blackboard to your ears ... YOUR fishing
should be what YOU want it to be

End of boring time wasting postG

Yesterday Afternoon
 

Wolfgang wrote:



Hm.....that leaves required or prohibited......do we get to pick?
:)


sure...but, i've heard if you keep pickin at it, it'll never heal. your
and becky's presence will be present enough...

jeff

Yesterday Afternoon
 

"Jeff Miller" wrote in message
news:4c2dc.78$192.5@lakeread06...

...i admit my view of all this reveals my personal limitations and
ignorance about bugs in particular, and other things in general...

Uh huh.

Wolfgang
who has seen more latin in the last four minutes than in as many years.
:)

Yesterday Afternoon
 

"Jeff Miller" wrote

4. to talk about things, no doubt about it, words is what we need.
however, selecting the precise words that we need to communicate
effectively requires more than just talking in the unique words we know
from intense study or effort, or more than just assuming that the latin
names of a particular taxonomy have common meaning to a fishing
audience. i suspect most fly fisher-men or -women know more about a
light cahill style fly than they do about a stenacron canadense, don't
you?

i just thought that you ought to be aware that i will print out the
paragraph, above, in order to read it at public gatherings from now until we
perish, with a hope to somehow equalize the anguish that you brought to me
by telling pj about my little story of he and i and the paraleptophebias on
snowbird creek.

for you, my friend, dante' would have described an *eigth* circle of
hell...

:)

yfitp
wayno