Short Rods
 

I've been hearing about some advantages to short rods, and I'm
wondering if anyone has experience with 6 to 7 foot rods rated for 8 to
10 wt lines. I'm thinking about fishing from a boat for pike, bass,
snook, and the like. The flies will mostly be large, and the retrieve
will often be fast, and will seldom involve any kind of mending.

I'm considering buying a 4 piece blank and using the top three pieces
to build the short rod. What weight 9 foot rod would become an 8 wt 7
foot 3 piece rod? How would I go about calculating that sort of thing?

Anybody know a manufacturer that makes short strong rods?

Thanks in advance,

Chas
remove fly fish to reply
http://home.comcast.net/~chas.wade/w...ome.html-.html
San Juan Pictures at:
http://home.comcast.net/~chasepike/wsb/index.html

Short Rods
 

"Chas Wade" schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:dYZlc.24025$Ia6.3598054@attbi_s03...
SNIP
I'm considering buying a 4 piece blank and using the top three pieces
to build the short rod. What weight 9 foot rod would become an 8 wt 7
foot 3 piece rod? How would I go about calculating that sort of thing?

SNIP

If you want an #8 wt rod, you must buy an #8 wt rod, shortening a rod from
the butt end will not change its rating. Shortening it from the tip end will
do so, but there is no way of knowing by how much, except trial and error.
This is not advisable.

If you want a short #8 wt rod, then buy a nine foot #8 wt, and shorten the
butt. Actually, I can see little point in this. A nine foot rod is
generally more advantageous than a shorter rod.

TL
MC

Short Rods
 

"Mike Connor" wrote:

If you want an #8 wt rod, you must buy an #8 wt rod, shortening a rod
from
the butt end will not change its rating.

You're quick with this answer, and I suspect it's based on experience,
but it seems a bit counter intuitive to me. I can see that only
shortening a little would make little difference, but I wonder how
losing the strongest fourth of a rod would leave it's rating unchanged.
I also think it would make quite a difference if the rod was fast
action or slow action.

Do you have any links to sites that explain how to calculate the rating
for a rod? I'm expecting there should be some formula based on the
static flex caused by a standard weight for a given length.

Shortening it from the tip end will
do so, but there is no way of knowing by how much, except trial and
error.
This is not advisable.

I'm with you there. We have an 8wt Sage RPLX rod that lost about a
foot off the end. It casts a 10wt fairly well, and my son Andy uses
that tip when casting a float and a couple heavy split shots for
steelhead with his 8wt line.


If you want a short #8 wt rod, then buy a nine foot #8 wt, and shorten
the
butt. Actually, I can see little point in this. A nine foot rod is
generally more advantageous than a shorter rod.

Let me ask for a bit more of your experience here if I may. If the 9
foot rod is "generally" more advantageous, when do you think it might
not be advantageous?

Thanks for your help,

Chas
remove fly fish to reply
http://home.comcast.net/~chas.wade/w...ome.html-.html
San Juan Pictures at:
http://home.comcast.net/~chasepike/wsb/index.html

Short Rods
 

Greg Pavlov wrote:
On Wed, 05 May 2004 06:27:41 GMT, Chas Wade
wrote:


Let me ask for a bit more of your experience here if I may. If the 9
foot rod is "generally" more advantageous, when do you think it might
not be advantageous?


Hey, Charles, I'll be happy to send you a 9 pc 9 ft
to play around with, if you can get it back to me
by early June.


That's an interesting offer Greg. I'm trying to imagine a collection
of ferules with little chunks of rod between. On the one hand it
sounds silly, but on the other hand, having 8 ferules spreads the
weight evenly through the rod, and might feel more like a one piece
rod. It sure would be fun to cast such a rod. I wouldn't trust myself
to get it back quick enough, but who made the rod? Maybe I can find
one locally to try.

If you're in Washington or Oregon, maybe I could drop in to try it?

Thanks,

Chas
remove fly fish to reply
http://home.comcast.net/~chas.wade/w...ome.html-.html
San Juan Pictures at:
http://home.comcast.net/~chasepike/wsb/index.html

Short Rods
 

"Chas Wade" schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:xP%lc.25508$TD4.3716090@attbi_s01...
"Mike Connor" wrote:

If you want an #8 wt rod, you must buy an #8 wt rod, shortening a rod
from
the butt end will not change its rating.

You're quick with this answer, and I suspect it's based on experience,
but it seems a bit counter intuitive to me. I can see that only
shortening a little would make little difference, but I wonder how
losing the strongest fourth of a rod would leave it's rating unchanged.
I also think it would make quite a difference if the rod was fast
action or slow action.

Do you have any links to sites that explain how to calculate the rating
for a rod? I'm expecting there should be some formula based on the
static flex caused by a standard weight for a given length.

Shortening it from the tip end will
do so, but there is no way of knowing by how much, except trial and
error.
This is not advisable.

I'm with you there. We have an 8wt Sage RPLX rod that lost about a
foot off the end. It casts a 10wt fairly well, and my son Andy uses
that tip when casting a float and a couple heavy split shots for
steelhead with his 8wt line.


If you want a short #8 wt rod, then buy a nine foot #8 wt, and shorten
the
butt. Actually, I can see little point in this. A nine foot rod is
generally more advantageous than a shorter rod.

Let me ask for a bit more of your experience here if I may. If the 9
foot rod is "generally" more advantageous, when do you think it might
not be advantageous?

Thanks for your help,

Chas
remove fly fish to reply
http://home.comcast.net/~chas.wade/w...ome.html-.html
San Juan Pictures at:
http://home.comcast.net/~chasepike/wsb/index.html



If you want it for boat fishing, then you will generally be casting from a
sitting position. The shorter the rod, the more difficult this is. Also,
when boating a fish, a longer rod has considerable advantages. Many people I
know use rods of 10 ft and longer from a boat, for this precise reason.

The butt of a fly rod, especially an #8 weight, is rarely used to cast under
normal circumstances. At its stated rating, such a rod will never be
loaded very deeply by a normal caster.

Most rods ( excepting extremely soft ones), will not change ratings much at
all below the top third of the rod. It is easy to try this, just cast with
the top three sections, or even just the top two. Apart from the length, you
will not notice any difference.

Rod ratings are done by testers etc, who cast the rods and then pronounce
the rating quite subjectively. There is no "standard" way to calculate the
rating of a rod.

This system "Common Cents" ( You will find more info if you do a search)
is pretty good;

QUOTE

Measure the total length of the assembled rod or blank to be tested.

Set up the rod or blank so that the first 12" is EXACTLY horizontal.
{1}

Fix a short pointer at the tip pointing back along the rod/blank and on
your
side of it (about 4" uncooked spaghetti is good)

Attach a small plastic bag by a paperclip to the tip.

Then add weights {2} (cents) until the tip has deflected (drooped) a
vertical distance -( MEASURED FROM THE HORIZONTAL {1} )
- equal to one third of the rod/blank total length.

Whilst in this position check the Action Angle against a protractor.
THE
PROTRACTOR BASE LINE MUST BE HORIZONTAL.

NOTES

{1} The best way ti do this is to draw a horizontal line on a wall and
then
fix a 12" shelf to that line.
Put the butt on the shelf and gently clamp it.

Measure the deflection (droop) from the line.

{2} The system was designed so that the std weight is a US 1 cent coin.
I use a set of accurate gram weights ex, a chemical pan balance. The
conversions are as follows:

38.61 grains per. penny X .0648 grams per. grain = 2.5019 grams per.
penny
(work to 4 places)
Or you can say grams X 15.4324 = Grains

EASIEST IS TO DIVIDE GRAMS BY 2.5019 = CENTS (but you must work to
at
least four decimal places)

So that's your data, now -

For line weights up to #8 (less than 62 cents - 155.12 Grams) use the
equation :-

( No. of Cents divided by 6.55) minus 1.2 = ERN ( The actual Line
Wt. )
.....................................

For line weights #8 and over (more than 62 cents - 155.12 Grams) use
the
equation :-
(3.33 x number of cents) - 10 = No. of grains (compare with AFTMA
tables
for line weight)
....................................

If you look in the photo section of RodBuilding.org , you will find the
latest table (The Rosetta Stone). I have asked Tom K. to prepare a
better
version of this which will work from whole cents and give fractional
line
weights. (This will be published soon.)

Remember that a perfect line weight will be on the .5 mark
i.e. A perfect #7 would measure ERN = 7.5 and a perfect #3 would
have
ERN = 3.5 etc.

Also in the photo's you can find a copy of a protractor (use the two
degree
division one)


Action Angle.

Less than 59* = Slow
59* - 66* = Medium (moderate) action
Above 66 = Fast

So that's it. It takes a few minutes to measure a rod or blank and you
get
an accurate figure for the line wt. and good idea of the action.

UNQUOTE

I don´t know the original author. The text was sent to me a fair while ago,
without attributions.

TL
MC


TL
MC

Short Rods
 

You can find all the relevant data here;
http://www.rodbuilding.org/search.ph...0&fldsubject=1

TL
MC

Short Rods
 

"Mike Connor" wrote:

Thanks for that Mike, I'll play with the rods I have and use this to
learn from. The boat fishing I'm thinking of is all standing in a
stable boat, either a flats boat in Florida, or a similar boat up north
when I fish for Pike. The long rod I used to have, a 10 foot rod, was
a bit harder to deal wiuth without over bending the rod while landing
the fish. I was thinking the shorter rod would be easier at that
point. You've got me rethinking that part too.

Chas
remove fly fish to reply
http://home.comcast.net/~chas.wade/w...ome.html-.html
San Juan Pictures at:
http://home.comcast.net/~chasepike/wsb/index.html

Short Rods
 

"Mike Connor" wrote:
You can find all the relevant data here;
http://www.rodbuilding.org/search.ph...0&fldsubject=1

A nice collection of info here, thanks for your help.

Chas
remove fly fish to reply
http://home.comcast.net/~chas.wade/w...ome.html-.html
San Juan Pictures at:
http://home.comcast.net/~chasepike/wsb/index.html

Short Rods
 

On Wed, 05 May 2004 04:20:25 GMT, Chas Wade
wrote:

Anybody know a manufacturer that makes short strong rods?

Scott used to make 8'8" HeliPly rods for sal****er. I have an 8wt and
really like it. Here's some ad copy describing them:
http://www.avidangler.com/Goods/Rods...liply_rods.htm
--
Charlie...

Short Rods
 

"Chas Wade" schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:QM1mc.34854$0H1.2945862@attbi_s54...
SNIP
The long rod I used to have, a 10 foot rod, was
a bit harder to deal wiuth without over bending the rod while landing
the fish. I was thinking the shorter rod would be easier at that
point. You've got me rethinking that part too.

Chas

If you are standing, then the rod length is not a problem as far as casting
goes, but it is then even more advantageous to have a longer rod for boating
the fish.

Mind you, in such a case, I would not normally go over 9´6" as longer rods
are much harder to wield. ( its not the weight, but the leverage!). Indeed,
I would normally stick with a nine footer.

The shorter the rod, the more problems you get with "over bending" etc,
although this is not at all obvious until you actually try it. I have seen
people with short rods having to lie down on the boat to land a fish. Also
the shorter the rod, the shorter the line to the fish in the final stages.
Pike especially will often lunge away, or under the boat with a final surge.
With a short rod you have no chance!

At one time I tried short ( bait tackle) rods for boat fishing for pike,
thinking mainly that it would be an advantage for various reasons. I gave
up very quickly indeed! :) But not before I lost a few fish!

What I would definitely advise, whatever else you do, is a long handled and
generously sized landing net!

TL
MC

Short Rods
 

Chas,

On FlyAnglersOnline's bulletin board, there has been an extensive discussion
pro and con about the Common Cents System. I looked yesterday and it
attracted about 61 responses in a couple of days.

You may want to check that out.

-John

"Chas Wade" wrote in message
news:nS1mc.26966$_41.1989921@attbi_s02...
"Mike Connor" wrote:
You can find all the relevant data here;

http://www.rodbuilding.org/search.ph...&globalsearch=
0&match=1&date=0&fldsubject=1

A nice collection of info here, thanks for your help.

Chas
remove fly fish to reply
http://home.comcast.net/~chas.wade/w...ome.html-.html
San Juan Pictures at:
http://home.comcast.net/~chasepike/wsb/index.html

Short Rods
 

"Mike Connor" wrote:

"Chas Wade" schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:QM1mc.34854$0H1.2945862@attbi_s54...
SNIP
The long rod I used to have, a 10 foot rod, was
a bit harder to deal wiuth without over bending the rod while landing
the fish. I was thinking the shorter rod would be easier at that
point. You've got me rethinking that part too.

Chas

If you are standing, then the rod length is not a problem as far as
casting
goes, but it is then even more advantageous to have a longer rod for
boating
the fish.

Mind you, in such a case, I would not normally go over 9´6" as longer
rods
are much harder to wield. ( its not the weight, but the leverage!).
Indeed,
I would normally stick with a nine footer.

The shorter the rod, the more problems you get with "over bending" etc,
although this is not at all obvious until you actually try it. I have
seen
people with short rods having to lie down on the boat to land a fish.
Also
the shorter the rod, the shorter the line to the fish in the final
stages.
Pike especially will often lunge away, or under the boat with a final
surge.
With a short rod you have no chance!

At one time I tried short ( bait tackle) rods for boat fishing for
pike,
thinking mainly that it would be an advantage for various reasons. I
gave
up very quickly indeed! :) But not before I lost a few fish!

What I would definitely advise, whatever else you do, is a long
handled and
generously sized landing net!


Well, Mike, I'm glad I posted this one. I think you're a few years
ahead of me, I was about to try the same experiment you did, and I
imagine I'd get the same disapointing result.

Thanks again for your help,

Chas
remove fly fish to reply
http://home.comcast.net/~chas.wade/w...ome.html-.html
San Juan Pictures at:
http://home.comcast.net/~chasepike/wsb/index.html

Short Rods
 

Charlie Choc wrote:
On Wed, 05 May 2004 04:20:25 GMT, Chas Wade
wrote:

Anybody know a manufacturer that makes short strong rods?

Scott used to make 8'8" HeliPly rods for sal****er. I have an 8wt and
really like it. Here's some ad copy describing them:
http://www.avidangler.com/Goods/Rods...liply_rods.htm
--
Charlie...

Those look like good rods, but 8'8" isn't all that short. A friend was
telling me about Lee Wulff catching Atlantic Salmon on 6 foot rods with
midges. He also said Wulff claimed to be able to cast a very long line
with these short rods.

I've decided I'm going to hand fit internal ferules to the broken
pieces of my trusty Sage RPLX 8wt and come up with something under 7
feet long to play with. Don't misunderstand, I had bought a blank, and
Sage returns the broken pieses with the new blank when I send it back
to them. They are great about service, it's just that I think I now
have a use for the scraps.

I'll post the results after I try the rod.

Thanks

Chas
remove fly fish to reply
http://home.comcast.net/~chas.wade/w...ome.html-.html
San Juan Pictures at:
http://home.comcast.net/~chasepike/wsb/index.html

Short Rods
 

On Wed, 05 May 2004 19:30:52 GMT, Chas Wade
wrote:

A friend was
telling me about Lee Wulff catching Atlantic Salmon on 6 foot rods with
midges. He also said Wulff claimed to be able to cast a very long line
with these short rods.

I've seen Lefty Kreh cast an entire line with just the tip section of
a 4 pc rod, so I can believe that. I have a 5'6" 2wt and it is fun to
fish as long as you don't have to do much mending or pick up much line
off the water quickly.
--
Charlie...

Short Rods
 

"Chas Wade" wrote...
Charlie Choc wrote:
Chas Wade wrote:

Anybody know a manufacturer that makes short strong rods?

Scott used to make 8'8" HeliPly rods for sal****er. I have an 8wt and
really like it. Here's some ad copy describing them:
http://www.avidangler.com/Goods/Rods...liply_rods.htm
--
Charlie...

Those look like good rods, but 8'8" isn't all that short. A friend was
telling me about Lee Wulff catching Atlantic Salmon on 6 foot rods with
midges. He also said Wulff claimed to be able to cast a very long line
with these short rods.

I can't vouch for the castability (?) of the rod, but the Wulff rod I inherited
was a 7.5' 8wt, which I thought to be a very odd length.
--
TL,
Tim
------------------------
http://css.sbcma.com/timj

Short Rods
 

Charlie Choc wrote:
On Wed, 05 May 2004 19:30:52 GMT, Chas Wade
wrote:

A friend was
telling me about Lee Wulff catching Atlantic Salmon on 6 foot rods
with
midges. He also said Wulff claimed to be able to cast a very long
line
with these short rods.

I've seen Lefty Kreh cast an entire line with just the tip section of
a 4 pc rod, so I can believe that. I have a 5'6" 2wt and it is fun to
fish as long as you don't have to do much mending or pick up much line
off the water quickly.
--

Somehow your note reminded me of the shortest rod I've tried to fish
with. It was a trip past Holden Lake on the way to climbing Bonanza
Peak in the North Cascades. For some reason I left the rod behind in
the car, but brought the reel and flies. The fish were rising, and I
managed to cast to them without a rod, possibly as far as 20 feet, it
was years ago and I'm not sure. The problem was that I couldn't get
the hook set, and the one fish I managed to hook came off immediately
because I couldn't keep the line tight.

As I think about it now, casting is the function that least depends on
the length of the rod. Managing the line on the water, and managing
the fish once hooked are the parts that most need a rod.

Thanks,

Chas
remove fly fish to reply
http://home.comcast.net/~chas.wade/w...ome.html-.html
San Juan Pictures at:
http://home.comcast.net/~chasepike/wsb/index.html

Short Rods
 

"Chas Wade" schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:iabmc.38216$I%1.2429479@attbi_s51...
SNIP
Well, Mike, I'm glad I posted this one. I think you're a few years
ahead of me, I was about to try the same experiment you did, and I
imagine I'd get the same disapointing result.

Thanks again for your help,


My pleasure, glad to be of help if I can.

Much of the rod question is of course a matter of personal taste. For
spinning, ( throwing plugs, iron, etc) I actually usually preferred shorter
rods, but not in a boat. One simply does not have enough control. I now
rarely use rods less than nine feet long for anything much at all, although
I still have a couple.

When fishing in the ocean for things like Cod etc, in deep water ( no
casting!), then I still prefer very short rods. I have a couple of IGFA 12
and 20 lb class boat rods which are only six feet long. This is because one
spends most of one´s time pumping up heavy fish, and a long rod is then a
disadvantage. The fish have too much leverage, and this really puts
excessive pressure on one´s muscles. Even with a short rod, one still tends
to have aching muscles after a successful trip.

TL
MC

Short Rods
 

On Wed, 05 May 2004 11:31:50 -0400, Greg Pavlov
wrote:

On Wed, 5 May 2004 10:16:55 +0200, "Mike Connor"
wrote:

Also,
when boating a fish, a longer rod has considerable advantages. Many people I
know use rods of 10 ft and longer from a boat, for this precise reason.


I don't know why this would be the case. I've spent
a lot of time spin fishing for salmonids from boats
and have used rods from 6.5 to 11 feet long. The most
all-around practical length, for me anyway, seems to
be around 7.5 feet. For flyfishing heavier flies I
think that around 9.5 is "ideal" in that it would be
the best compromise between trying to keep flies in
the air and other practical matters such as dealing
with a fish boat-side (then again, if I follow my
usual practice of catching as few fish on the fly as
possible to minimize hassles, I guess that aspect
doesn't matter as much...)


What was the total length of that Daiwa that you used to land that
nice pike at Byng?

http://www.mountaincable.net/~pcharles/byng-3.jpg

Just in case you forgot that you do occasionally boat fish . . . .




Peter

turn mailhot into hotmail to reply

Visit The Streamer Page at http://www.mountaincable.net/~pcharl...ers/index.html

Short Rods
 

G.Loomis has made some 8' #9 weight rods for fishing in the mangroves.

--
Bill Kiene

Kiene's Fly Shop
Sacramento, CA, USA

Web site: www.kiene.com


"Chas Wade" wrote in message
news:dYZlc.24025$Ia6.3598054@attbi_s03...
I've been hearing about some advantages to short rods, and I'm
wondering if anyone has experience with 6 to 7 foot rods rated for 8 to
10 wt lines. I'm thinking about fishing from a boat for pike, bass,
snook, and the like. The flies will mostly be large, and the retrieve
will often be fast, and will seldom involve any kind of mending.

I'm considering buying a 4 piece blank and using the top three pieces
to build the short rod. What weight 9 foot rod would become an 8 wt 7
foot 3 piece rod? How would I go about calculating that sort of thing?

Anybody know a manufacturer that makes short strong rods?

Thanks in advance,

Chas
remove fly fish to reply
http://home.comcast.net/~chas.wade/w...ome.html-.html
San Juan Pictures at:
http://home.comcast.net/~chasepike/wsb/index.html

Short Rods
 

"Bill Kiene" wrote:
G.Loomis has made some 8' #9 weight rods for fishing in the mangroves.

--
Thanks Bill, I saw that on their website, and I need to cast one.

Chas
remove fly fish to reply
http://home.comcast.net/~chas.wade/w...ome.html-.html
San Juan Pictures at:
http://home.comcast.net/~chasepike/wsb/index.html

Short Rods
 

Bill wrote:They also made some 8 foot 8 weight rods for a while in the early
90's. I have one of those.

Big Dale G.Loomis has made some 8' #9 weight rods for fishing in the
mangroves.