Larry L wrote:

"jeff miller" wrote



at $1500 a puppy, what do you think that investment yields?



not sure I understand that question .... I have always told MY clients, and
believed myself, that unless the activity itself, the training, the time
spent outside, etc was enough .. don't even consider the sport fwiw,
there is no money to be made in trials, no prize money, .... the reason
some dogs sell for big bucks is simply dogs with that quality ( qualities
NOT obvious to casual observation ) are very rare ... as is talent that can
make the big leagues ( see below )





...always with electric

shock and shotgun salt. it was repulsive to me.


I can understand that. Let me say only this .. in the hands of skilled
trainers an e-collar is a wonderful tool that limits, yes limits, stress on
the dog. I worked a gun dog today, with it's owner issuing the commands.
At the end of the session that owner commented nellie had done well and that
I hadn't "used the collar" at all ... but I had, just so lightly the dog
showed no sign except changed behavior. BUT, there are a lot of pretty
crappy trainers in the world, and, frankly, "pro dog trainer" means zilch, I
know many I wouldn't let touch my dog, period. As for "shotgun training,"
repulses me too .. and fwiw, I've only met east coast trainers that use it,
never seen or heard of it out here

My favorite dog training quote is from Delmar Smith, " A man can learn to
control any animal, if he first learns to control himself."

i know folks that have

spent large dollars to acquire field trial and hunting dogs. each of them
has also owned a dog that was of the ordinary 150 to 300 dollar akc
variety. frankly, i saw nothing unique or more worthy in the more
expensive dog....



I don't think $$ is the key here ... I've seen 'ordinary' dogs achieve
greatness ... and therefore become valuable ... it is a myth that much value
comes with the pedigree, per se Field trials are like big league
baseball, hunt tests like playing on the company softball team, gundogs like
tossing a ball in the backyard with the family ... culture, and each of us,
values those 'ball players' differently, but only a fool would think the big
league guy is probably having the best life ... as in dog sports, the costs
of winning can often be higher than the value of that win.


FWIW, although I made a living for 30 years training trial dogs I do not and
never have suggest trials to anyone ... and I actively advise against most
field trial 'blood' for gun dog/pet owners




well said larry.

didn't intend any of my comment to be critical of you or your efforts as
a trainer, just my observations of some things here in nc...and i've no
experience as a trainer. my dogs train me - a circumstance we both
approve of and accept.

i've seen dogs yelp and almost turn a flip from the electric collar
training...it troubled me a lot when i witnessed it. i've also seen the
wounds inflicted by the salt shots. i'm not a hunter, or a trainer, so
my sensitivity is probably out of the norm with regard to dog training
methods. still, it bothered me a lot.

my best friend owned two fabulous hunting dogs that he also
field-trialed. he was very tough with the dog...ear pinches, ear bites,
mean loud voice, electric collar (said he used the salt in shotgun
method, but i never saw him do it)... but, he genuinely loved the dog.
when the dog died, he cried. he still speaks reverently of smoke and
rush. it remains an oddity i can't reconcile. i can't imagine doing
anything intentionally that hurt my dog.

the $1500 comment was directed mainly at those who develop a commercial
venture in dogs dependent on field trial or hunting blood-lines and
those who buy them. a 250k or 100k dog is clearly a "different" breed,
as are their owners.

jeff (btw...despite my initial plans otherwise, i've succumbed to the
troutforce of montana yet again, and hope to be there july 11-18 this
year. if you'll be in the area of reynolds or west yellowstone, perhaps
we can share a meal if not a creek. i'll be camping somedamnwhere. the
slide inn has shifted focus and now caters to wealthy republicans. g)