On Dec 18, 11:05*pm, DaveS wrote:
On Dec 18, 1:22*pm, Giles wrote:





On Dec 18, 12:32*pm, DaveS wrote:

I was referring to Bernard DeVoto, the historian and writer, and in
particular his 1947 book, "Across the Wide Missouri," focused on the
period 1833-1838, and the expedition headed by Willian Drummond
Stewart, who brought Alfred Jacob Miller an artist with him. The book
contains 96 repros, some in color of contemporaneous paintings by
Miller, Bodmer and Catlin.

This is a page on Stewart, the "second son . . . of Sir George
Steward, 17th. lord of Grandtully, fifth baronet of Murthly."

http://www.3rd1000.com/history3/biography/wdstewart.htm`

I clicked that link. *Got a page cannot be displayed error message.
So, I still don't know anything about Alfred Jacob Miller or what
DeVoto learned from him. *I could do a little research and find out
for myself, of course, but my first such endeavor today, while
interesting and enlightening enough, didn't result in anything
germain. *Maybe a capsule report from you would help me to decide
whether or not the matter is worth pursuing.

Thanks.

giles

For example, he identifies the Lenni Lenapes as a group of East Coast
Indians who did not vanish but transformed into plains people via
their association with the EuroAmerican newcomer. IE another
adaptation scenario/ alternate to the Cherokee? These determinations
allow for an alternative "opposite side of the battle-line" interpret
of the Frontier Wars. etc



He spots the double re curve, composite bow in the paintings, Even til
recently the North American indigenous horse peoples were not credited
with this innovation. Standard opinion was that this kind of very
powerful and maneuverable bow was the sole province of the Mongol
Horde. Devoto raised all kinds of questions to a placid academic
orthodoxy. DeVoto was a precursor of the best of the New Left
historical analysis. He had a respect for artifact as well as words in
presenting and interpreting the record.

Dave

I remember seeing a representation of a bow such as you describe
sometime in the not too distant past. In fact, I think it may have
been within the context of a disucssion here in ROFF. I don't recall
whether it was a representation of a painting or drawing, or if it was
a photograph of a still extant artifact. In any case, it wasn't
difficult to find others. A Google search on Alfred Jacob Miller
turned up this page:

http://www.artsales.com/ARTistory/Hi...ng_buffalo.htm

Scroll down a ways and you'll find two items which appear to show such
a bow. One of them is untitled, the one just below "The Surround."
The central figure is about to loose an arrow from a bow whose lower
limb looks like it may be recurved. Hardly conclusive, though. On
the other hand, in the next painting, "Buffalo Bull a Grand Pawnee
Warrior," the figure is holding a bow that is indisputably recurved.
Interestingly, neither painting is by Miller.....both are credited to
Catlin. Can't be certain, of course, but it seems unlikely that two
hits (one of them iffy, but the other rock solid) this close toegether
on the first try are inexplicable anomolies. I suspect other examples
wouldn't be hard to come up with.

So, a provisional conclusion that the plains Indians had recurved bows
by the 1830s seems pretty reasonable. However, possession doesn't
always equate to innovation. For example, we know for a fact that the
plains Indians had horses (which they most certainly did not invent)
long before the 1830s, and this implies that they almost certainly had
steel knives and lance and arrow points (which they also did not
invent and which, after all, can travel at the speed of a horse),
albeit perhaps in severely limited quantities due to expense. Guns,
too, though probably even fewer. Looking again at Catlin's painting
of Buffalo Bull, the arrow points, the medallion, and the beadwork are
all suggestive of imported modern industrial manufacture, not native
craft. All of these items could have been brought in by Catlin's
party, but they could also have filtered in via other means at any
time in the previous couple of centuries. And the same is of course
true for the bow, and if not for this particular bow, then at least
for its design.

Very well, but the known existence of centuries old trade routes and
at least occasional contact with outsiders who could have brought in
innovative technologies doesn't necessarily preclude local invention
either, right? Right. The matter appears to remain unsettled for now
(at least based on what I've been able to unearth so far), and the
only way I can think of, just off the top of my head, to prove native
invention and manufacture conclusively is to find such an artifact
that can be carbon dated (or otherwise proved) to a date prior to the
earliest possible direct or indirect contact with European
manufactured goods.....which would be sometime in the 16th century, I
suspect.

In any event, while all of this is interesting in its own right, I
think that native innovation as regards recurved bows, even if proved
conculsively, doesn't do much to support the contention that Alfred
Jacob Miller was instrumental in informing DeVoto's understanding of
the real west. The picture is much bigger than that.....and Devoto
was a much bigger man.

As for your observations on DeVoto, included above, yeah, that's all
correct, but he also had a great deal of respect for truth and for
solid research applied to matters of interest and import, germain to
whatever question might be under consideration, accompanied by
contempt for cavilling nonsense.

g.