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Old February 28th, 2006, 10:15 PM posted to,misc.rural,misc.consumers
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Default Fish Down Stream 3M Ssite On Mississippi River Unsafe

On Tue, 28 Feb 2006 14:05:24 -0500, Neon John wrote:

You're correct, of course, Don. To someone with lots of industrial
water treatment experience such as myself, this guy comes across as a
raving lunatic who has managed to find a water treatment glossary
somewhere and is randomly picking words to use.

The fact is, unless someone is ****ting in yer well, fecal matter does
NOT add color to water. The dilution is simply too high. The
detection method for fecal matter in water is the coliform bacteria
that always accompanies it. Bacteria can be cultured until it has
multiplied enough to be observable. The fecal matter itself cannot

Moreover, if there is excess chlorine in the water, an EPA
requirement, whatever is there is sterile. If any of what this lid
says is true, most likely the sediment is carry-over from the
floctreater. Muddy water is first treated with a floculating agent
(alum is the most common) that causes the suspended matter to
agglomerate into gelatinous masses that are easily removed by the
subsequent sand filter.

Sometimes this matter carries over during filter backflush or
malfunction. Though it looks bad because it is mud-colored, it is
harmless to humans.

Don, your theory of sediment/rust in the system is also likely. In
oversized feeders, the water velocity is low enough that traces of
rust and sediment settle out. When something causes high velocity
flow, say a fire or periodic flushings, the sediment is re-suspended
and tints the water reddish orange to brown. Again, it is harmless,
though it looks bad.

The EPA's water quality standards which every water district must
adhere to, requires the water turbidity, dissolved solids, dissolved
oxygen and chlorine to be continuously monitored with on-line
instruments. Previously via alarming strip-chart recorders and now
more commonly computerized data logging systems. In addition,
manually analyzed samples must be taken several times a shift and
compared to the on-line monitoring as both validation calibration.
Organic matter is also analyzed during these batch samples.

The permissible levels of dissolved solids (including the evil,
dastardly "heavy metals") and organic matter are so low as to be
silly, orders of magnitude below that which causes any harm. Anyone
wondering why his water bill has skyrocketed over the past few years,
well there you go.

Also correct, Don, is the observation that man wasn't created and
doesn't live in a vacuum. We live in a sea of organisms, only a tiny
proportion of which cause us any problems. That's what our immune
systems are for.

I wonder if this guys who's so phobic about something brown in his
water is equally phobic of actual turds in various delicacies. After
all, things like shrimp, lobster and other shellfish are eaten with
their digestive tracts AND their turds intact. Sterilized by cooking
in some cases, others such as raw oysters, not.

================================================== =========
I've developed a theory that this guy tends to validate. My theory is
that some (many?) people have a mental flaw that demands there be a
certain constant level of (dis)stress in their lives.

Here we go with the ad hominum. Quite to be expected from the likes
of Neon John. Standard operating procedure.

Absent real

You are a *real* problem.

they make up things and/or believe the wildly improbable.
Witness the phobias about such things as individual atoms of allegedly
"bad" metals, for example. Back during my childhood, typhoid
outbreaks still closed public places and the disease sometimes showed
up in municipal water systems. Now all those awful water-borne
diseases are conquered so some people have to make up stuff to fulfill
their stress quotients.

Your argument doesn't hold water.

The utter destruction of the educational system over the past few
decades undoubtedly plays a major part.

I'm 60 years old, and was formally educated before calculators were
invented to help you add two columns of numbers.

After all, when people have
no real experience or education in the sciences,

That's a LIE John. What are your academic credentials? Finish High
School did you? I spent 5 years in college, and no they were not all
in the same classroom.

rest of Neon John's psychosis ignored


they tend to believe
patently absurd things such as little handheld explosives blowing up
entire blocks and cars always exploding into fireballs when shot. And
of course, the unknown and invisible but teeming critters and
substances, all conspiring to harm those who Truly Believe(TM)

Americans have never had safer food and water, better medical care,
safer or longer lives in the history of man and yet some people still
work themselves into froths over imaginary "dangers". I think my
theory is on the verge of becoming an immutable law.


On Tue, 28 Feb 2006 04:47:10 +0000 (UTC), (Don
Klipstein) wrote:

In article , Lawrence
Glickman wrote:
On Mon, 27 Feb 2006 22:08:21 -0500, Jim Ledford

Lawrence Glickman wrote:


Jim Ledford wrote:


at how Chicago dumps their treated sewage in the same lake
they take their drinking water from.


I would know, as I did the experiment.
I took tap water from lake Michigan and filled a tall clear bottle
with it. I then put it in a place where it wouldn't be disturbed for
72 hours. After that time, I took the bottle and looked at the
bottom, where a thick brown sediment had settled. My best guess is
that is human fecal material at the bottom of the bottle.

Invisible at first because it is in suspension, but given the
opportunity for gravity to work on it, the accumulation is quite
pronounced, and of the appropriate brown color.

As far as dissolved chemicals are concerned, they remained in
solution. I attack both problems with sediment and activated carbon
filters. I know someone who died from cancer...her doctor said it was
most likely from drinking the water ( Steger Illinois, which I think
is/was wellwater until we got a feed from Lake Michigan through a
Chicago Heights distribution station ).

In summary, I would not feed tap water to a stray DOG, without first
filtering it through sediment and activated carbon/charcoal filters to
remove _most_ of the impurities. There remains the *heavy metals*
problem, but those filters are way way expensive. Activated
carbon/charcoal with a pre-filter for sediment provides a Good Return
on Investment (ROI). I have two of them in series, for drinking water
purposes only.

Nobody at this house drinks water from any source that isn't first
filtered with my own equipment.

Chicago ( far South Side )

Lg - smart person, good job for your work.

Thanks Jim,

Here is my response to those that think I was looking at IRON

THAT'S A HELL OF A LOT OF IRON! We're talking 1/16th deep LAYER of
this *stuff.* If it is human feces, it is _dead_ human feces, but
feces none the less.

I surely doubt any of the Great Lakes have that much feces, human or
cattle or pig or total in any way!

I do suspect you overestimated the thickness of the sediment layer,
especially as averaged over the bottom surface of the container. But even
if it was only .02 or .01 inch thick if made even in thickness, I don't
see any of the Great Lakes having that much poop even if all the cowpies
from Wisconsin and all the sewage and dog poop, cat poop, rat poop, mouse
poop and roach poop and flyspecks from Chicago and its suburbs and poop
from all livestock in Chicago's stockyards got dumped into Lake Michigan
with no treatment.

I suspect most of this stuff is iron compounds and ordinary dirt.

Also, I do not see a need for zero tolerance of fecal matter in water
but some sort of "safe level". Humans evolved in areas where I doubt they
were upstream of every fish in the nearest creek, as well as runoff from
land pooped on by animals let alone the next village upstream!

- Don Klipstein )

John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
Cleveland, Occupied TN
A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds.-Ralph Waldo Emerson