Salmon fly line dillema

Choosing a spey fly line is prooving more difficult than I imagined and
experts's opinion seem to vary dramatically, contradicting eachother to the
point that the average punter is confused.

On the one end, you have a respected and vastly experienced Scottish casting
instructor stating in his very good website review of speylines that he
favours a traditionnal DT profile for the bulk of his fishing whilst
prefering modified Wf profiles for pure distance....and on the other hand ,
tackle shops and other APGAI instructors who really only promote WF profiles
and when questionned reply that they hate DT lines.



I started with a Rio Windcutter and now wish to move to the next step, now
that I have acquired the basics. The Rio midspey is the logical choice but I
am overall very confused and at a loss when choosing. Trying with the rod is
best but nowhere can one actually try everything and anything.., especially
not a traditionnal DT 10!

My dilemma is that I feel I know need a longer head ( I have reached maximum
distance with my current line and want to do a bit less spaguetti retrieving
before casting again) but also hate -when fishing smallish streams - to be
disabled because the rod does not really load until most of the head is out
of the top ring.

A 70 feet head is probably the maximum I want to go to as really long belly
lines seem to be for the very proficient caster and adapted only to very
large rivers whilst I fish only medium to large rivers.



In summary, I could do with views of real salmon anglers rather than expert
casters, people who have can testify of their practical experience rather
than loose me in theoritical debates.



Considered spey lines a

Cortland or SA Ultra DT

Cortland Spey tri colour

Mastery series SA Spey

Rio Mid Spey

Lee Wulf TT 70feet

any views on Hardy Mach and Snowbee?



Many thanks in advance

The Leaping Frog

First question, where are you and what do you fish for?

Second question, what sort of rod are you using?

Third question, why did you leave the Airflo Deltas off the list?



Peter

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Peter,

I fish in Wales, Scotland and Scandinavia for salmon using a sage15'1 #10/11

Airflo has never excited me as a brand...for no particular reason

The leaping Frog


"Peter Charles" wrote in message
...
First question, where are you and what do you fish for?

Second question, what sort of rod are you using?

Third question, why did you leave the Airflo Deltas off the list?



Peter

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http://www.mountaincable.net/~pcharl...ers/index.html

On Fri, 3 Jun 2005 07:22:48 +0100, "The Leaping Frog"
wrote:

Peter,

I fish in Wales, Scotland and Scandinavia for salmon using a sage15'1 #10/11

Airflo has never excited me as a brand...for no particular reason

The leaping Frog



I'd rate Airflo Deltas quite highly for their WF salmon lines -- I
have four. I also own Rio, Cortland & SA. All are good lines,
however I've found the Airflo lines were smoother casting with better
turnover vs. the Rio Windcutter. I haven't tried Snowbee or Partridge
lines and I've only had a go with one Carron. The Carron was very,
very nice and the guys over here who have tried the other two rave
about them. There's a thread running on the Spey Clave Casting Forum
right now, where a few PNW casters are enthused with the new Snowbee
rods and lines. I did a search on the forum, trying to find line
recommendations for your rod but didn't turn up anything.

Sage two-handers are designed for the Rio Windcutter and the Skagit
style shooting heads used in the PNW. Compared to other UK brands,
and American ones like T&T and Loomis, the Sages aren't that great
with longer bellied lines. There's no "moving up" in progressing
from a Windcutter to a MidSpey. That's just marketing crapola
designed to get you to buy more lines. Windcutters aren't "beginner"
lines, they're a very useful short head line that fits the PNW type of
fishing quite well. I use everything from Scandinavian heads, to
Windcutters, to Delta Longs, to an XLT-- even DTs -- simply selecting
the line for the fishing job at hand.


"My dilemma is that I feel I know need a longer head ( I have reached
maximum distance with my current line and want to do a bit less spaguetti
retrieving before casting again) but also hate -when fishing smallish
streams - to be disabled because the rod does not really load until
most of the head is out of the top ring."

You've summed up the "Windcutter + Sage" dilemma perfectly. The
Windcutter is a crappy short casting line and the Sage ain't no hill
of beans either, in that department. A Windcutter can be cast as far
as any other line out there but the stripping is no fun. If you stay
with that rig, learn the line management techniques the Scandinavians
use, tucking large loops of running line under the little finger of
the bottom hand. It makes the spaghetti manageable. It's easy to
learn and becomes quite natural after a short while.

Given what you've told me about your requirements, I'd ebay the lot
and buy something more suitable for your type of fishing. If you have
to buy American, get either the new Loomis GLX Greaseliner or a T&T --
both are fabulous rods.

Peter

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Peter,

Thanks for your reply but I had to grin! I did not expect to be told to
change my rod even if by your reckoning it is as suited as the early tank
arials for medium & long belly lines! I am being excessive as usual here.

What does PNW mean: sorry you are going to have to educate me here!
I watched the video "Spey Casting Secrets" by the Native Fish Society this
week end and therefore understood what you meant by "skagit" style. It is
clear that there is a whole branch of spey casting that I still have to
discover...

I have to say that I am very intrigued by your statements:
There's no "moving up" in progressing from a Windcutter to a MidSpey.
That's just marketing crapola designed to get you to buy more lines.
Windcutters aren't "beginner"
lines, they're a very useful short head line that fits the PNW type of
fishing quite well

Surely a longer head must imply different line qualities: more weight
airialised and therefore a potential longer cast, better mending at longer
distances and less running line management? Can you explain your claim of
marketing crap?

Finally, I do not fish enough to have the luxury of buying several lines and
changing according to conditions . I have to settle with one and make do
with a compromise. Unsatisfactory but so often required!

regards
Jerome

"Peter Charles" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 3 Jun 2005 07:22:48 +0100, "The Leaping Frog"
wrote:

Peter,

I fish in Wales, Scotland and Scandinavia for salmon using a sage15'1
#10/11

Airflo has never excited me as a brand...for no particular reason

The leaping Frog



I'd rate Airflo Deltas quite highly for their WF salmon lines -- I
have four. I also own Rio, Cortland & SA. All are good lines,
however I've found the Airflo lines were smoother casting with better
turnover vs. the Rio Windcutter. I haven't tried Snowbee or Partridge
lines and I've only had a go with one Carron. The Carron was very,
very nice and the guys over here who have tried the other two rave
about them. There's a thread running on the Spey Clave Casting Forum
right now, where a few PNW casters are enthused with the new Snowbee
rods and lines. I did a search on the forum, trying to find line
recommendations for your rod but didn't turn up anything.

Sage two-handers are designed for the Rio Windcutter and the Skagit
style shooting heads used in the PNW. Compared to other UK brands,
and American ones like T&T and Loomis, the Sages aren't that great
with longer bellied lines. There's no "moving up" in progressing
from a Windcutter to a MidSpey. That's just marketing crapola
designed to get you to buy more lines. Windcutters aren't "beginner"
lines, they're a very useful short head line that fits the PNW type of
fishing quite well. I use everything from Scandinavian heads, to
Windcutters, to Delta Longs, to an XLT-- even DTs -- simply selecting
the line for the fishing job at hand.


"My dilemma is that I feel I know need a longer head ( I have reached
maximum distance with my current line and want to do a bit less spaguetti
retrieving before casting again) but also hate -when fishing smallish
streams - to be disabled because the rod does not really load until
most of the head is out of the top ring."

You've summed up the "Windcutter + Sage" dilemma perfectly. The
Windcutter is a crappy short casting line and the Sage ain't no hill
of beans either, in that department. A Windcutter can be cast as far
as any other line out there but the stripping is no fun. If you stay
with that rig, learn the line management techniques the Scandinavians
use, tucking large loops of running line under the little finger of
the bottom hand. It makes the spaghetti manageable. It's easy to
learn and becomes quite natural after a short while.

Given what you've told me about your requirements, I'd ebay the lot
and buy something more suitable for your type of fishing. If you have
to buy American, get either the new Loomis GLX Greaseliner or a T&T --
both are fabulous rods.

Peter

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Visit The Streamer Page at
http://www.mountaincable.net/~pcharl...ers/index.html

PNW = Pacific Northwest = Washington, Oregon, Idaho

FWIW... I've watched a guide cast the whole line plus some backing with
a rio skagit head on a sage rod. Plenty of distance with the short
head lines.

On Mon, 6 Jun 2005 20:59:59 +0100, "The Leaping Frog"
wrote:

Peter,

Thanks for your reply but I had to grin! I did not expect to be told to
change my rod even if by your reckoning it is as suited as the early tank
arials for medium & long belly lines! I am being excessive as usual here.

What does PNW mean: sorry you are going to have to educate me here!
I watched the video "Spey Casting Secrets" by the Native Fish Society this
week end and therefore understood what you meant by "skagit" style. It is
clear that there is a whole branch of spey casting that I still have to
discover...

I have to say that I am very intrigued by your statements:
There's no "moving up" in progressing from a Windcutter to a MidSpey.
That's just marketing crapola designed to get you to buy more lines.
Windcutters aren't "beginner"
lines, they're a very useful short head line that fits the PNW type of
fishing quite well

Surely a longer head must imply different line qualities: more weight
airialised and therefore a potential longer cast, better mending at longer
distances and less running line management? Can you explain your claim of
marketing crap?

Finally, I do not fish enough to have the luxury of buying several lines and
changing according to conditions . I have to settle with one and make do
with a compromise. Unsatisfactory but so often required!

regards
Jerome


Well, Jerome, never let it be said that I do things by half. )

While I've always been a huge fan of Sage single handers and have
owned more of them than any other brand, I've never been a fan of
their two-handers. They're over-rated rods that can be outperformed
by much cheaper ones. There are some Sages that I don't mind fishing
but I'd never pay the price they're asking -- even the ebay prices for
them are too high IMHO. I did fish one Sage 15 footer for a short
while but I don't remember the model --9150 perhaps --- it might have
been yours (green blank). It wasn't a bad rod, but it was heavy and
it took some work to cast it. I was happy to go back to my Daiwa 10
wt. after fishing the 9150 for a while.

Sage two-handers are designed for fishing the west coast rivers using
the Skagit style of casting that is popular there. They're designed
to cast Windcutter lines though obviously they will cast others. The
combination of Windcutter and Sage is a natural fit.

I referred to marketing crapola in relationship to the notion that
Windcutters are beginners' lines that one outgrows and then moves on
to mid-belly and long-belly lines from there. Windcutters aren't
beginners' lines and there's no "progression" involved. One can make
a convincing case that a DT is the best beginners line. The choice
between a Windcutter vs. something else usually revolves around
fishing conditions, matching the rod, and personal preference. As an
example, the Windcutter evolved in part due to backcast restrictions
on some PNW rivers. Short head lines have smaller D-Loops. If I had
to fish a river that was large but where I couldn't wade in very far
to clear the bank, the Windcutter, Delta, or a Scandinavian system
would be my choice. If you have lots of wading and backcast room,
then other choices are opened up.

Your premise that the longer belly with its heavier mass will cast
longer is not correct -- there are too many other variables. For
instance, light Scandinavian shooting heads can be cast huge
distances. I can spey cast my short Guideline shooting head (475
grains) farther than my 9/10 Delta Long (690 grains) or my XLT 8/9
(990 grains). I can get about a 100' with the Delta and maybe 110'
with the XLT but over 120' with the Guideline and use much less effort
in the process. The XLT is the choice for casting champions but it is
work to cast the full head and it demands a high skill level. I can
manage to lift and cast the full head on a single over a 45 degree
change of direction but there's no way I'd fish it with the full head
out -- too exhausting.

You mentioned that your short game isn't very good and I understand
that 100% as you have neither the rod and nor the line to excel in
this department. If this is a big part of your fishing then you have
a problem. If you want to fish short to medium, no stripping, no
problems mending, then buy a cheap Shakespeare DT salmon line (I have
two -- they're decent lines). It'll load and cast short way better
than the Windcutter, a 15 footer will lift 75' of it without
difficulty and they mend well with no line management. The DT just
won't shoot well, it needs backcast room, and it puts a premium on
casting skill. The other problem is that it might be beyond what the
Sage can handle when lifting long lengths as the Sage was never
designed to fish a DT.

If the thoughts of handling a DT don't do anything for you, then go
for an Airflo Delta Long as it has better turnover and a better short
game than a MidSpey. You might also want to check out the new
Partridge and Carron lines as they are getting high marks from
reviewers over here. If the short game is important to you, avoid the
MidSpey as it's worse than the Windcutter. I really like the MidSpey
but I wouldn't use one for short presentations and it won't turnover
the heavy stuff like a Delta Long will. This is not just MHO either,
this is the general consensus of people who know both lines. there
was a thread on the Spey Clave forum a while back that explored their
differences. The MidSpey is a very smooth casting line but the Delta
Long will fish a broader range of distances.

Peter

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