Bi-annual foam rant

I make this post every two years or so, hoping some not-so-braindead
fly tying
materials wholesaler will (finally) recongnize a good idea, package it
up
and sell it, so we all can use it.

The closed-cell dryfly foam they (everybody) sell in fly shops is
lousy. Stinks, in fact.
It's too dense and heavy to work well for its intended purpose. You
might think
your closed-cell Chernoble Hoppers are great, but that's only because
you don't know
any better. Make those same hoppers out of ultra-ligth weight foam and
you'll see what I'm
talking about. You'll never want to use anything else.

It is entirely possible to buy ultra-lightweight closed-cell foam, and
yet nobody does it.
The most amazing part of this story is that I figured this all out in
1991 or so,
when I was investigating materials for boat seat covers.

Foam is sold to big distributors by the bun, where a bun is like a cord
of wood:
a 4' x 4' x 8' block of foam, shipped over from Taiwan, usually. That's
a lot of foam.
Buns are characterized by 3 main attributes: the resin type it's made
from, the color
and the bun weight.

The foam they sell in fly tying stores (Evazote, etc) all has a
relatively high bun
weight. High bun weight foam is the most expensive. Salesmen make a
bigger markup
on high bun weight foam, so they hoodwink dim-witted fly tying
materials packagers
into buying it.....instead of the stuff they should be buying.

Low buw weight foam is amazing. It is absolutely impossible to sink.
You cannot get it at retail anywhere. You don't have to buy a whole
bun, but you
do have to talk to a wholesaler and buy about $500 worth of it to get
it all.
If Rainey or Dan Bailey or somebody finally got smart (fat chance), and
sold the right stuff,
you could make grasshoppers and adult stoneflies and bass bugs and
beatles
that cannot be drowned. You could make grasshoppers that serve as
fish-catching
strike indicators (bobbers) for lead-wrapped WoollyBuggers.

I do it all the time. But I'm only a year or two away from running out
of
the samples I got from a wholesaler 15 years ago, and I don't want to
have to buy a half
bun of foam just to make good grasshoppers again. I'd really like it if
the wholesalers
finally got smart. Is it to much to ask? (distributors finally get a
clue?).

wrote

materials wholesaler will (finally) recongnize a good idea, package it
up
and sell it, so we all can use it.



Why not an addition to the boat biz? "If you want something done right,
you have to do it yourself."

Why not an addition to the boat biz? "If you want something done right,
you have to do it yourself."



God forbid. To make money selling fly tying materials to fly
shops you need to be organized and efficient, and you need high
volumn. I already miss out on the first two requirements.

Salmo Bytes wrote:

Why not an addition to the boat biz? "If you want something done right,
you have to do it yourself."

God forbid. To make money selling fly tying materials to fly
shops you need to be organized and efficient, and you need high
volumn. I already miss out on the first two requirements.

What is the ultra-low-weight foam used for in the real world?

What sorts of tools are used to slice the buns of the normal closed cell
foam into the forms that are retailed? Maybe these are not appropriate
for the ultra-low-weight stuff?

Oh they're appropriate (tools the big foam guys have).

Wholesale outfits like Industrial Rubber in Seattle
can slice the stuff, in 4' x 4' sheets, to whatever thickness
you want. I bought several hundred dollars worth of
low bun weight EVA (ethyl vinyl acetate) foam in various
colors. Gave most of it away. Sold some. Still have some.
They let me know my $300 dollar order was more of a nuisance
than a sale for them. And that was 15 years ago.

EVA isn't the only alternative. There are other resins.
What's it used for? Good question. I don't don't know the
answer. Most foam is sold for industrial packing...equipment
padding. Stiff and dense and heavy is good in that context.

I dont' think there is much market for the ultra-light low
bun weight stuff, else it would be easier to get. But it
does exist. You just have to buy enough of it to get it.

In article . com,
says...
You don't have to buy a whole
bun, but you
do have to talk to a wholesaler and buy about $500 worth of it to get
it all.


I'm in for 20 bucks worth, give or take, if anybody else wants to
split some up...

Kevin

--
reply to: kevin dot vang at minotstateu dot edu

Salmo's rant rang true and was snipped for brevity.

The common denominator for bouyancy or density in foam seems to be pounds
per cubic foot. Do you recall what your EVA weighs?

Do you recall the manufacturer and the product id? Are they on the web
today?

Y20 and 2# XPE from Specialty Foams www.irfoam.com for example are two
closed cell foams weighing 2 pcf. The Y80 weighs 8 pcf and the 4# XPE
weighs 4 pcf and these may be machinable and shaped but are heavier.

Balsa for example can weigh as low as 4 pcf but most is in the 7-12 pcf
range with heavy knot hole wood in the twenties.

Is your EVA foam machinable? Can it be sanded? Can it be cut or shaped by
a hot wire? What can it be painted with other than Prismacolor or similar
pens?

The white Y20 and off white XPE for example are soft, non-machinable, cannot
be easily bored to create dowells or cylinders easily formed via hot wire,
IMHO.

No doubt they float very high on the water but when I asked the sales lady
what type of adhesive to use to attach a hook, she glazed over. But she
quickly assured me they could injection-mold any shape with embedded hook -
if the order was big enough! I did not have enough money or guts to ask her
how big that order had to be! g A Special or new hook minimum order is
100,000. Yep no guts - no $ that's me.

But I am very interested in your response.

Good luck!
John

John wrote:


The common denominator for bouyancy or density in foam seems to be pounds
per cubic foot. Do you recall what your EVA weighs?
No, I wish I did know. I work in a lab with fancy digital scales.
I could weigh a square foot at 1/4" and extrapolate....might do that.
The foam I have (almost gone now) I bought in 1991. The guy I bought it
from said it was NOT the lightest possible EVA foam. He said it was the
lightest stuff he had in stock, on the floor of the warehouse right now
(well back then, that is). He probably did tell its bun weight, but
I didn't write it down nor remember it.
He suggested some other resin types too, polyurethane, possibly.
I chose the EVA stuff and it worked well. I've been making unsinkable
grasshoppers for almost 15 years now. The fancy, good-looking hoppers
Rainey sells in fly shops now (with beady eyes and double-strand
kicker legs) look great, but they hardly float. I can mend the line
on my hoppers in FAST water, with a heavy nymph hanging off the back,
which sinks the hopper momentarily. And then voila: up pops the hopper
again. Try that with a Rainey Hopper and it stays down for the count.


Do you recall the manufacturer and the product id? Are they on the web
today?
No, but I did buy it from Industrial Rubber in Seattle. They don't like
to even talk to you, however, unless you want to set up a real account
and make recurring purchases.


Y20 and 2# XPE from Specialty Foams www.irfoam.com for example are two
closed cell foams weighing 2 pcf. The Y80 weighs 8 pcf and the 4# XPE
weighs 4 pcf and these may be machinable and shaped but are heavier.

2 pcf sounds pretty light. But I don't really know for sure.


Balsa for example can weigh as low as 4 pcf but most is in the 7-12 pcf
range with heavy knot hole wood in the twenties.

Is your EVA foam machinable? Can it be sanded? Can it be cut or shaped by
a hot wire? What can it be painted with other than Prismacolor or similar
pens?
Machinable? No. It's too soft.
I cut it with razor blades, paper cutters and/or a fabric cutter.
I lash it onto the hook LOOSELY, and then glue it in place with
ZapAGap. If you wrap it on tightly you collapse the foam and lose
the bouyancy.

The white Y20 and off white XPE for example are soft, non-machinable, cannot
be easily bored to create dowells or cylinders easily formed via hot wire,
IMHO.
You can make nice round little holes with a leather punch.
You can cut it accurately with a straight edge and a circular,
disc-shaped fabric cutter. You can cut it with a hot wire, although
I never do.

It glues nicely (onto anything) with CA glue.
Sheet stock 1/4" thick is what you want. You can cut that
down to whatever you need. Or use it at a full 1/4" thick to
make magnum hoppers or giant adult stonefly immitations.

No doubt they float very high on the water but when I asked the sales lady
what type of adhesive to use to attach a hook, she glazed over. But she
quickly assured me they could injection-mold any shape with embedded hook -
if the order was big enough! I did not have enough money or guts to ask her
how big that order had to be! g A Special or new hook minimum order is
100,000. Yep no guts - no $ that's me.

But I am very interested in your response.

Good luck!
John

A hopper
http://montana-riverboats.com/Pages/..._std_hook.html

A big pteronarcys stonefly adult
http://montana-riverboats.com/Pages/...-step_ten.html

Salmo sez: after I wrote;
The common denominator for bouyancy or density in foam seems to be pounds
per cubic foot. Do you recall what your EVA weighs?
No, I wish I did know. I work in a lab with fancy digital scales.
I could weigh a square foot at 1/4" and extrapolate....might do that.

Weighing might be a good idea. Unless I'm missing something there is no
other common ground to compare foams. Seems like the industry does not have
some kind of standard numbering system for foams.

The foam I have (almost gone now) I bought in 1991. The guy I bought it
from said it was NOT the lightest possible EVA foam. He said it was the
lightest stuff he had in stock, on the floor of the warehouse right now
(well back then, that is). He probably did tell its bun weight, but
I didn't write it down nor remember it.

Over the last 12-18 months, I've probably talked to or surfed 20-30
speciality foam suppliers and do not recall anybody using "bun weight"
terminology.

He suggested some other resin types too, polyurethane, possibly.
Like you said earlier, seems the more resin, the more cost.

I chose the EVA stuff and it worked well. I've been making unsinkable
grasshoppers for almost 15 years now. The fancy, good-looking hoppers
Rainey sells in fly shops now (with beady eyes and double-strand
kicker legs) look great, but they hardly float. I can mend the line
on my hoppers in FAST water, with a heavy nymph hanging off the back,
which sinks the hopper momentarily. And then voila: up pops the hopper
again. Try that with a Rainey Hopper and it stays down for the count.
Right. She should call her Float Foam, "Barely Floats Foam" g.

Do you recall the manufacturer and the product id? Are they on the web
today?
No, but I did buy it from Industrial Rubber in Seattle. They don't like
to even talk to you, however, unless you want to set up a real account
and make recurring purchases.
Right again. I contacted them also. However other firms will sell limited
quataties of foams with the hopes of you buying big quantaties later.

Y20 and 2# XPE from Specialty Foams www.irfoam.com for example are two
closed cell foams weighing 2 pcf. The Y80 weighs 8 pcf and the 4# XPE
weighs 4 pcf and these may be machinable and shaped but are heavier.

2 pcf sounds pretty light. But I don't really know for sure.

From what I think I heard from talking with sales people, foam "lightness"
or density in closed cell foams is a result of the gas trapped inside the
cells. And they said most cell gas was air, CO(2), both or some other
derivative of the chemical process that formed the foam When I asked if
they could inject the cells with helium or something lighter than air, was
it possible to get foam that weighed less than 0 pcf, they seemed to glaze
over and clam up.

material snipped
Is your EVA foam machinable? Can it be sanded? Can it be cut or shaped
by a hot wire? What can it be painted with other than Prismacolor or
similar pens?
Machinable? No. It's too soft.
I cut it with razor blades, paper cutters and/or a fabric cutter.
I lash it onto the hook LOOSELY, and then glue it in place with
ZapAGap. If you wrap it on tightly you collapse the foam and lose
the bouyancy.

Since you can use soft foams, maybe you should look at their Y-20 and 2# XPE
Both are very soft based on the samples they sent me..

The white Y20 and off white XPE for example are soft, non-machinable,
cannot be easily bored to create dowells or cylinders easily formed via
hot wire, IMHO.
You can make nice round little holes with a leather punch.
You can cut it accurately with a straight edge and a circular,
disc-shaped fabric cutter. You can cut it with a hot wire, although
I never do.

Foam for popping bugs has different characteristics, I now see compared to
your hopper and stone fly needs.

It glues nicely (onto anything) with CA glue.

IMHO As poppers get larger than 3/8 to 1/2 inch diameter, especially in weak
material or soft foams, CA glues become less useful as adhesives, even with
thread wapped hump shank hooks. The hook twists loose from the bug body. I
have grappled with this problem for decades! Will be testing a possible
solution that could work with any body material this summer.

Sheet stock 1/4" thick is what you want. You can cut that
down to whatever you need. Or use it at a full 1/4" thick to
make magnum hoppers or giant adult stonefly immitations.

I saw what you mean from the photos in the two links. Did not like his
colors though!

IMHO colors make a difference to fish. Most of the time the strike/catch
rate due to color difference is small or not noticeable to me. But
sometimes, the color match must be exactly right on. Other people can talk
about this more than I can - bass will eat anything g! But even on bright
sunny days in clear water, even BIG ole bass get smarter about colors!
Bright, sharp, clear, flourescent colors seem to work consistently better
for me than dull, off shade, fuzzy dark colors. One color I have tested
over the years and absolutely refuse to use is "Stop sign" yellow. Lemon
yellow beats amber or stop sign yellow hands down every time for bass,
bluegill and yes, even trout. Yep I know lots of stop sign yellow is sold
at drug stores, Wall Mart and other places but flourescent or lemon yellow
just works better.

Colors for popping bugs are getting very exotic. Top and bottom spraying,
fading at overlap, scales, eyes, gills and other steps all require base
coating and spray-on technology are going way beyond handwritten marks-a-lot
colored pens.

Oh, the other problem I had with soft, closed cell foams is getting paint to
stick - either water or solvent based! When I asked the sales people which
worked best on their foam, they said just send them a color swatch and they
could match it and color the foam, for a minimum order. groan There's
that word again! No bucks or guts - that's me!

remainder snipped

Good luck!
John