OT John Murtha Democrat from Pennsylvania

Well, here we go again. The Republicans will crank up their
usual smear campaign now that John Murtha has embarrassed
Cheney and Shrub from the floor of the U.S. House.

So here's a little reminder.

Democrats:

* John P. Murtha: US Marines, 1952-55, 1966-67.
* Richard Gephardt: Air National Guard, 1965-71.
* David Bonior: Staff Sgt., Air Force 1968-72.
* Tom Daschle: 1st Lt., Air Force SAC 1969-72.
* Al Go Army 1969-1972.
* Bob Kerrey: Lt. j.g. Navy 1966-69.
* Daniel Inouye: Army 1943-47.
* John Kerry: Lt., Navy 1966-70.
* Charles Rangel: Staff Sgt., Army 1948-52.
* Max Cleland: Captain, Army 1965-68.
* Ted Kennedy: Army, 1951-53.
* Tom Harkin: Lt., Navy, 1962-67; Naval Reserve, 1968-74.
* Jack Reed: Army Ranger, 1971-1979; Captain, Army Reserve 1979-91.
* Fritz Hollings: Army officer in WWII.

Republicans

* Dick Cheney: did not serve.
* Dennis Hastert: did not serve.
* Tom Delay: did not serve.
* Roy Blunt: did not serve.
* Bill Frist: did not serve.
* Mitch McConnell: did not serve.
* Rick Santorum: did not serve.
* Trent Lott: did not serve.
* John Ashcroft: did not serve.
* Jeb Bush: did not serve.
* Karl Rove: did not serve.
* Saxby Chambliss: did not serve.
* Paul Wolfowitz: did not serve.
* Richard Perle: did not serve.
* Douglas Feith: did not serve.
* Eliot Abrams: did not serve.
* Richard Shelby: did not serve.
* Tim Hutchison: did not serve.
* Christopher Cox: did not serve.
* Newt Gingrich: did not serve.
* Don Rumsfeld: Navy, 1954-57.
* George W. Bush: National Guard.
* Phil Gramm: did not serve.
* John McCain: Navy, 1958-81.
* Rudy Giuliani: did not serve.
* George Pataki: did not serve.
* Spencer Abraham: did not serve.
* John Engler: did not serve.


Hope this helps.

--
Ken Fortenberry

In article ,
says...

* George W. Bush: National Guard.


Well, he started a tour in the NG, anyway...

Kevin

"Ken Fortenberry" wrote in message
. ..
Well, here we go again. The Republicans will crank up their
usual smear campaign now that John Murtha has embarrassed
Cheney and Shrub from the floor of the U.S. House.

So here's a little reminder.

Democrats:

* John P. Murtha: US Marines, 1952-55, 1966-67.
* Richard Gephardt: Air National Guard, 1965-71.
* David Bonior: Staff Sgt., Air Force 1968-72.
* Tom Daschle: 1st Lt., Air Force SAC 1969-72.
* Al Go Army 1969-1972.
* Bob Kerrey: Lt. j.g. Navy 1966-69.
* Daniel Inouye: Army 1943-47.
* John Kerry: Lt., Navy 1966-70.
* Charles Rangel: Staff Sgt., Army 1948-52.
* Max Cleland: Captain, Army 1965-68.
* Ted Kennedy: Army, 1951-53.
* Tom Harkin: Lt., Navy, 1962-67; Naval Reserve, 1968-74.
* Jack Reed: Army Ranger, 1971-1979; Captain, Army Reserve 1979-91.
* Fritz Hollings: Army officer in WWII.

Republicans

* Dick Cheney: did not serve.
* Dennis Hastert: did not serve.
* Tom Delay: did not serve.
* Roy Blunt: did not serve.
* Bill Frist: did not serve.
* Mitch McConnell: did not serve.
* Rick Santorum: did not serve.
* Trent Lott: did not serve.
* John Ashcroft: did not serve.
* Jeb Bush: did not serve.
* Karl Rove: did not serve.
* Saxby Chambliss: did not serve.
* Paul Wolfowitz: did not serve.
* Richard Perle: did not serve.
* Douglas Feith: did not serve.
* Eliot Abrams: did not serve.
* Richard Shelby: did not serve.
* Tim Hutchison: did not serve.
* Christopher Cox: did not serve.
* Newt Gingrich: did not serve.
* Don Rumsfeld: Navy, 1954-57.
* George W. Bush: National Guard.
* Phil Gramm: did not serve.
* John McCain: Navy, 1958-81.
* Rudy Giuliani: did not serve.
* George Pataki: did not serve.
* Spencer Abraham: did not serve.
* John Engler: did not serve.


Hope this helps.

--
Ken Fortenberry

You know Ken,

I have a mighty respect for those who have served, but do not hold it
against someone who hasn't. However, some methods of not serving are more
admirable than others. In my mind, those who fled to Canada did a far
greater service to their country than did Bush.

In any event, I was highly supportive of C. Powell, and admired the way he
chose not to run for president...saying bluntly that he would not put his
family through the trivial and anal "exposé's" of the press. Yet, this
man - whose scruples I admired - seems to have lost them (scruples) while
serving in the Bush administration. Or do you think that he 'served' and did
his 'duty' regardless of the morals of his superiors?

john, ..who advises great care while vacuuming your fly tying bench...

john

asadi wrote:
snip
In any event, I was highly supportive of C. Powell, and admired the way he
chose not to run for president...saying bluntly that he would not put his
family through the trivial and anal "exposé's" of the press. Yet, this
man - whose scruples I admired - seems to have lost them (scruples) while
serving in the Bush administration. Or do you think that he 'served' and did
his 'duty' regardless of the morals of his superiors?

I think Colin Powell's speech in front of the UN was the low
point of an otherwise distinguished career. When you lay down
with swine, you can't help but smell bad yourself.

--
Ken Fortenberry

Ken Fortenberry wrote:
asadi wrote:

snip
In any event, I was highly supportive of C. Powell, and admired the
way he chose not to run for president...saying bluntly that he would
not put his family through the trivial and anal "exposé's" of the
press. Yet, this man - whose scruples I admired - seems to have lost
them (scruples) while serving in the Bush administration. Or do you
think that he 'served' and did his 'duty' regardless of the morals of
his superiors?


I think Colin Powell's speech in front of the UN was the low
point of an otherwise distinguished career. When you lay down
with swine, you can't help but smell bad yourself.

That speech ruined Powell's reputation, and he's ****ed. A recent Powell
quote is revealing: "History is a dish best served cold." Substitute
"revenge" for "history".

His former chief of staff, Lawrence Wilkerson, has been criticizing the
lies that got us into the Iraq debacle, obviously with Powell's blessing.

--
Cut "to the chase" for my email address.

"rw" wrote..


His former chief of staff, Lawrence Wilkerson, has been criticizing the
lies that got us into the Iraq debacle, obviously with Powell's blessing.


Read something about that in the Tribune
(http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/n...=1&cset =true
)

How long 'till he gets 'swit boat'-ed?

A sad, sad thing. Disagree and you're smeared.

Dan

'swit boat'-ed?


Oops.... swift.....

On Fri, 18 Nov 2005 16:37:42 GMT, Ken Fortenberry
wrote:

asadi wrote:
snip
In any event, I was highly supportive of C. Powell, and admired the way he
chose not to run for president...saying bluntly that he would not put his
family through the trivial and anal "exposé's" of the press. Yet, this
man - whose scruples I admired - seems to have lost them (scruples) while
serving in the Bush administration. Or do you think that he 'served' and did
his 'duty' regardless of the morals of his superiors?

I think Colin Powell's speech in front of the UN was the low
point of an otherwise distinguished career. When you lay down
with swine, you can't help but smell bad yourself.

Powell was where he was (and where he is) because he was: a) "team
player," and b) to a lesser extent, black. Do some research on the
early part of his career, particularly his days in Vietnam, and
moreover, any information relating to Calley and My Lai - no, I am not
suggesting he was in any way involved pre-incident. And no, I'm not
saying he was bad, good, or indifferent - merely offering a place to
start.

I will offer my opinion that Powell is and was like many others: a
competent enough soldier and officer, and as such, his personal feelings
about this or that are not really material in the face of lawful orders.

R

"asadi" wrote

In any event, I was highly supportive of C. Powell, and admired the way he
chose not to run for president...saying bluntly that he would not put his
family through the trivial and anal "exposé's" of the press. Yet, this
man - whose scruples I admired - seems to have lost them (scruples) while
serving in the Bush administration. Or do you think that he 'served' and
did his 'duty' regardless of the morals of his superiors?



Powell and McCain are two people that I have admired in the past, but, both
of them have proven to ME that they are more loyal to their Party than to
their Country.

History has shown that it is far too easy to sway the masses by waving the
Bible ( or similar, religion dependant, text ) and the flag. History has
also shown that a willingness to wave them does not represent true faith or
patriotic beliefs. Often the opposite is the case and many of mankind's
great villains attained power riding on false shows of patriotism and
religious 'faith.'

Since day one, I have believed that the Iraq war was conceived as a
political tool. Remember back and we will recall that pre-9-11 Bush had
terrible ratings and it was much discussed whether he would be to do
anything, at all, in office. Then 9-11, and I'll never forget him getting
one of his little smirks as he spoke, "I knew at that moment, we were at
war." ... he loved the idea.

His rating shot sky high, and he clearly enjoyed being a war president.
Bush is fence post dumb but even he could see that "war is good for ME."
( Hell it worked briefly for daddyBush too, didn't it? )

Afganistan was justified, imho, and it's mission should have actually been
finished. But when the ratings started to dwindle because the mission
wasn't going well ( where is Bin Laden, btw ? ) we were all told "time for a
new war." Out came the flags and the bibles and soon the gullible and
the fearful were goosestepping off to the mid-term elections to give Bush
the support he needed to start ruining many things in this country and
around the world.

IMHO, both Powell and McCain knew that Iraq was mainly a political tool to
get those ratings back up and were willing to sacrifice some young men and
women to keep their own power in the Party, rather than stand up for the
truth and be counted.

I was not a huge fan of Kerry, but I DO believe that his Viet Nam history
showed he was a true patriot, i.e. a person willing to sacrifice for his
nations's good. BOTH his tour of duty and his fight against the war later,
after he realized that that war was wrong for this nation, were acts of TRUE
patriotism ..... not just acts of flag waving to goosestepping fools.
Murtha, as a traditional "hawk" expressing the fact that things have changed
and we need to do what's right, not just wave flags and bibles while
sacrificing our children is showing similar patriotism.

And it won't surprise me at all if the BushGang does crank up their waving
furor and smear campaigns. They don't show much inclination to try new
things and practically speaking honesty is not a tactic they have much
experience using. But they know how to lie and flag/Bible wave with
history's best.

On Fri, 18 Nov 2005 15:48:26 GMT, Ken Fortenberry
wrote:

Well, here we go again. The Republicans will crank up their
usual smear campaign now that John Murtha has embarrassed
Cheney and Shrub from the floor of the U.S. House.

So here's a little reminder.

Democrats:

* John P. Murtha: US Marines, 1952-55, 1966-67.
* Richard Gephardt: Air National Guard, 1965-71.
* David Bonior: Staff Sgt., Air Force 1968-72.
* Tom Daschle: 1st Lt., Air Force SAC 1969-72.
* Al Go Army 1969-1972.
* Bob Kerrey: Lt. j.g. Navy 1966-69.
* Daniel Inouye: Army 1943-47.
* John Kerry: Lt., Navy 1966-70.
* Charles Rangel: Staff Sgt., Army 1948-52.
* Max Cleland: Captain, Army 1965-68.
* Ted Kennedy: Army, 1951-53.
* Tom Harkin: Lt., Navy, 1962-67; Naval Reserve, 1968-74.
* Jack Reed: Army Ranger, 1971-1979; Captain, Army Reserve 1979-91.
* Fritz Hollings: Army officer in WWII.

Republicans

* Dick Cheney: did not serve.
* Dennis Hastert: did not serve.
* Tom Delay: did not serve.
* Roy Blunt: did not serve.
* Bill Frist: did not serve.
* Mitch McConnell: did not serve.
* Rick Santorum: did not serve.
* Trent Lott: did not serve.
* John Ashcroft: did not serve.
* Jeb Bush: did not serve.
* Karl Rove: did not serve.
* Saxby Chambliss: did not serve.
* Paul Wolfowitz: did not serve.
* Richard Perle: did not serve.
* Douglas Feith: did not serve.
* Eliot Abrams: did not serve.
* Richard Shelby: did not serve.
* Tim Hutchison: did not serve.
* Christopher Cox: did not serve.
* Newt Gingrich: did not serve.
* Don Rumsfeld: Navy, 1954-57.
* George W. Bush: National Guard.
* Phil Gramm: did not serve.
* John McCain: Navy, 1958-81.
* Rudy Giuliani: did not serve.
* George Pataki: did not serve.
* Spencer Abraham: did not serve.
* John Engler: did not serve.


Hope this helps.

While exact figures are impossible to obtain (it's illegal), the most
tend to agree that the military votes about 2 to 1 Republican and some
have opined using what little data is available that it was more
lop-sided for Bush, v. Gore and perhaps more telling, more lop-sided
still for Bush, v. Kerry.