Fly Patterns: East vs. West

For those that may have fished eastern and western streams, do you use
markedly different patterns for PMDs and/or sulphurs depending on region?
What about northeast vs southeast (i.e. Penns vs Smokies)?

Danl

"Danl" danlfinn@*remove this*intergate.com wrote in message
...
For those that may have fished eastern and western streams, do you use
markedly different patterns for PMDs and/or sulphurs depending on region?
What about northeast vs southeast (i.e. Penns vs Smokies)?

Danl


Guessin' your talkin' dries? Cause if you were talkin' nymphs I think the
sulphur nymphs work quite efficiently any all areas, as do pheasant tails,
at least the three areas you mentioned. As for the dries, I think the color
does make a big difference. Even between Penn's and Big Fishing Creek,
which are only a couple valleys apart in PA, you will see enough variation
to make a difference when fishing.

I think the distinction may be in the fish themselves. If we looking at
fish in primarily clear spring water, which get fished over consistently, I
think they are more apt to key an exact shades whereas fish in small, clear
mountain stream, might take anything that resembles life.

One thing that surprised me out West during the Western claves were the fish
in the Yellowstone River. For a place that has a long closed season, and
full of cutts, you would think they would be easier than the Madison, but
daaamn those fish were aaaaasssssholes....

So ya coming out for our clave this year?

THE Finn...

"Danl" danlfinn@*remove this*intergate.com wrote in message
...

For those that may have fished eastern and western streams, do you use
markedly different patterns for PMDs and/or sulphurs depending on region?
What about northeast vs southeast (i.e. Penns vs Smokies)?

Almost all of my experience "out west" was on Colorado and New Mexico
tailwaters and I rarely used anything bigger than an 18 except for the
Mother's day Caddis hatch on the Arkansas. On which I used the same ehc and
pupae patterns I started fishing TVA tailwaters 15 years ago.

Last year I had a meeting in Idaho and stayed over a few days to see Glacier
and I hired a guide in Idaho. My terrestials that I used in Michigan and the
Smokys worked just fine in Montana. But on the guide trip we got into a
hatch of PMD's. We (I) weren't getting any hookups on top with the guide's
PMD imitation. To his chagrin, I clipped off his imitation and tied my own,
which is a farily common Michigan pattern, and proceeded to get 4 or 5
hookups in the next six casts and it worked the rest of the day. Supposedly
he was going to tie some up that night for his clients the next day but I
never found it out. FWIW, his patterns were some foam and rubber things
while mine was made of hair, feathers, and fur the way God intended g.

Except for size and species dispersion (no hexagenia in the Smokys) I use
the same flies in Michigan and Wisconsin as I do in TN, NC, and GA.

My experiences anyway.

"Mike Makela" ten.tsacmoc@alekamm wrote in message
...
Guessin' your talkin' dries? Cause if you were talkin' nymphs I think
the
sulphur nymphs work quite efficiently any all areas, as do pheasant
tails, at least the three areas you mentioned. As for the dries, I think
the color does make a big difference. Even between Penn's and Big Fishing
Creek, which are only a couple valleys apart in PA, you will see enough
variation to make a difference when fishing.

So is it generally color A for Penn's and color B for BFC, or is it just
different colors in different places on different days? In other words, do
you have a Penns Sulphur color and a BFC sulphur color?

One thing that surprised me out West during the Western claves were the
fish in the Yellowstone River. For a place that has a long closed season,
and full of cutts, you would think they would be easier than the Madison,
but daaamn those fish were aaaaasssssholes....

All the dumb cutts are up in Slough Creek Almost all the rest, regardless of
species or location are AAAAAASSSSholes!!!


So ya coming out for our clave this year?

Its possible, its possible. When are you gonna be there?

And BTW, I had a link to Tom's Penns Creek Flies, or some such, but it no
workee anymore. Whappened to it?


THE Finn... Hmmmm

Danl, who is at least _a_ Finn...

"Wayne Knight" wrote in message
. ..
"Danl" danlfinn@*remove this*intergate.com wrote in message
...


[snip good stuff]

Except for size and species dispersion (no hexagenia in the Smokys) I use
the same flies in Michigan and Wisconsin as I do in TN, NC, and GA.

My experiences anyway.

So, care to share your pattern recipes? I'd be beholden to you.

Danl

Danl wrote:

For those that may have fished eastern and western streams, do you use
markedly different patterns for PMDs and/or sulphurs depending on region?
What about northeast vs southeast (i.e. Penns vs Smokies)?

Danl


in the smokies, they'll eat anything...even the things i tie. at penns,
you better get the sulphurs' eyelashes and anal orifices tied exactly
right.

hth g

jeff

"jeff" wrote in message
...
at penns, you better get the sulphurs' eyelashes and anal orifices tied
exactly right.

hth g

jeff

with all due respect to Jeff and Mike M, I am still not sure about what they
say. My experience is that the attitude of the fly is FAR more important
than color details here in PA. I have used the same sulfur pattern sets for
both Penns and BFC, for instance, for the past decade or so.
In my experience, first and foremost the fly has to come right down the
proper lane on both waters to have a chance. In BFC, flush floaters like
parachutes and soft hackles work best, but not so necessary on Penns. Penns
fish do have a soft spot for CDC and snowshoe emergers on the flatter
stretches, however. Having said this, I have failed enough during sulfur
hatches at both places to remain humble and thus unsure of any
pronouncements. Most especially, I and others fail frequently by overlooking
fallen spinners when duns are hatching. Given that at least 3 and possibly 4
species of flies get lumped into the hatch called "sulfurs", choosing the
proper size,color and stage of the hatch are all contributing factors to
success, but I would place color at the rear of the pecking order.
Tom

Tom Littleton wrote:

"jeff" wrote in message
...

at penns, you better get the sulphurs' eyelashes and anal orifices tied
exactly right.

hth g

jeff


with all due respect to Jeff and Mike M, I am still not sure about what they
say. My experience is that the attitude of the fly is FAR more important
than color details here in PA. I have used the same sulfur pattern sets for
both Penns and BFC, for instance, for the past decade or so.
In my experience, first and foremost the fly has to come right down the
proper lane on both waters to have a chance. In BFC, flush floaters like
parachutes and soft hackles work best, but not so necessary on Penns. Penns
fish do have a soft spot for CDC and snowshoe emergers on the flatter
stretches, however. Having said this, I have failed enough during sulfur
hatches at both places to remain humble and thus unsure of any
pronouncements. Most especially, I and others fail frequently by overlooking
fallen spinners when duns are hatching. Given that at least 3 and possibly 4
species of flies get lumped into the hatch called "sulfurs", choosing the
proper size,color and stage of the hatch are all contributing factors to
success, but I would place color at the rear of the pecking order.
Tom


the last year i fished penns, the color of the dry fly was the only
differentiating factor i could identify. only the sulphurs with the
orange tint worked. presented identically and in the same size, the
yellow color did not produce. change to the orange, presto, the fish took.

i am saying those are some persnickety fish in penns. they can afford
to be very discriminating about what they will eat. in contrast, the
fish in the smokies want something...anything...that looks buggy and
sorta natural. our fish are starving. they are spooked easily and decide
to eat quickly. we don't have hatches of any real consequence in nc that
dictate feeding patterns.

jeff

So, if Tom says they don't care about the perzact color of your sulphur and
jeffie says "they don't, just so long as its orangish yellow", then one
might conclude to construct one's sulphurs with a bit of orange, remembering
to mind the presentation most of all. I got that right?

Hey Tom, what did happen to your website with examples of your fave flies?

Danl




"jeff" wrote in message
...
Tom Littleton wrote:

"jeff" wrote in message
...

at penns, you better get the sulphurs' eyelashes and anal orifices tied
exactly right.

hth g

jeff


with all due respect to Jeff and Mike M, I am still not sure about what
they say. My experience is that the attitude of the fly is FAR more
important than color details here in PA. I have used the same sulfur
pattern sets for both Penns and BFC, for instance, for the past decade or
so.
In my experience, first and foremost the fly has to come right down the
proper lane on both waters to have a chance. In BFC, flush floaters like
parachutes and soft hackles work best, but not so necessary on Penns.
Penns fish do have a soft spot for CDC and snowshoe emergers on the
flatter stretches, however. Having said this, I have failed enough during
sulfur hatches at both places to remain humble and thus unsure of any
pronouncements. Most especially, I and others fail frequently by
overlooking fallen spinners when duns are hatching. Given that at least 3
and possibly 4 species of flies get lumped into the hatch called
"sulfurs", choosing the proper size,color and stage of the hatch are all
contributing factors to success, but I would place color at the rear of
the pecking order.
Tom
the last year i fished penns, the color of the dry fly was the only
differentiating factor i could identify. only the sulphurs with the orange
tint worked. presented identically and in the same size, the yellow color
did not produce. change to the orange, presto, the fish took.

i am saying those are some persnickety fish in penns. they can afford to
be very discriminating about what they will eat. in contrast, the fish in
the smokies want something...anything...that looks buggy and sorta
natural. our fish are starving. they are spooked easily and decide to eat
quickly. we don't have hatches of any real consequence in nc that dictate
feeding patterns.

jeff

"Danl" danlfinn@*remove this*intergate.com wrote in message
...
So, if Tom says they don't care about the perzact color of your sulphur
and jeffie says "they don't, just so long as its orangish yellow", then
one might conclude to construct one's sulphurs with a bit of orange,
remembering to mind the presentation most of all. I got that right?

Hey Tom, what did happen to your website with examples of your fave flies?

Danl


What Jeff said is true of Penn's, my quibble was that the same shade of
orange sulfur works at the same sort of moment elsewhere in PA. The problem
is that we do have simultaneous hatches here of Dorothea(true yellow, and a
bit smaller), Invaria(a muted yellow) and Rotunda(orange yellow), along with
some kind of Stenonema which is also orange/yellow in color. They don't vary
much stream to stream, sometimes they will be larger in fertile streams.
Maybe I read Makela as trying to infer that the same species needs a
different shade on different streams and I would differ with that. My only
real difference with Jeffs first post was that one needn't get the genitalia
or other detail correct so much as putting the fly at the proper level in
the water column. Color can matter, but I have seen the wrong
color(read:species imitation) work if presented naturally enough, more often
than not.
As for the website, that disappeared when I dropped AOHell a couple years
back. FWIW, I have some hope that Mr. Fisher will post some pics of my flies
at www.pennscreekangler.com at some point. Also, I think someone catalouged
the photos I used to have up for Penn's someplace.....
Tom



"jeff" wrote in message
...
Tom Littleton wrote:

"jeff" wrote in message
...

at penns, you better get the sulphurs' eyelashes and anal orifices tied
exactly right.

hth g

jeff


with all due respect to Jeff and Mike M, I am still not sure about what
they say. My experience is that the attitude of the fly is FAR more
important than color details here in PA. I have used the same sulfur
pattern sets for both Penns and BFC, for instance, for the past decade
or so.
In my experience, first and foremost the fly has to come right down the
proper lane on both waters to have a chance. In BFC, flush floaters like
parachutes and soft hackles work best, but not so necessary on Penns.
Penns fish do have a soft spot for CDC and snowshoe emergers on the
flatter stretches, however. Having said this, I have failed enough
during sulfur hatches at both places to remain humble and thus unsure of
any pronouncements. Most especially, I and others fail frequently by
overlooking fallen spinners when duns are hatching. Given that at least
3 and possibly 4 species of flies get lumped into the hatch called
"sulfurs", choosing the proper size,color and stage of the hatch are all
contributing factors to success, but I would place color at the rear of
the pecking order.
Tom
the last year i fished penns, the color of the dry fly was the only
differentiating factor i could identify. only the sulphurs with the
orange tint worked. presented identically and in the same size, the
yellow color did not produce. change to the orange, presto, the fish
took.

i am saying those are some persnickety fish in penns. they can afford to
be very discriminating about what they will eat. in contrast, the fish
in the smokies want something...anything...that looks buggy and sorta
natural. our fish are starving. they are spooked easily and decide to eat
quickly. we don't have hatches of any real consequence in nc that dictate
feeding patterns.

jeff