Too much fuss?

Because I used to race sailboats and still have an interest therein, I
occasionally browse another site dedicated to the sport. Now, I have
to say up front that racing a sailboat is not a simple exercise. Even
assuming that you have a worthy craft, the level of information,
expertise, preparation, and tuning necessary to be competitive at any
level is substantial.

As an example, allow me to discuss only a simple mainsail. It's a big
triangular piece of what could loosely be called cloth, though it's
probably made of synthetics and composites that didn't exist ten years
ago. Hoisting the main, you have to make sure you don't put too much
tension on the halyard, because that will stretch the foreward edge of
the sail, pulling the draft forward, and messing up the shape you paid
the sailmaker $$$ to build into it. But there is another control used
to more carefully adjust the luff tension, and you need to tighten
that to adjust the position of the draft to suit the wind and sea
conditions. Similarly, you have a control at the aft corner by which
you can pull the sail flatter for more or less power. Depending on
where you set the sheet position with the traveller, you can adjust
the twist. (The wind strength aloft is different than at sea level.)
All of this before you actually trim the sail. There are, of course,
other ways to affect the effectiveness of the mainsail by shaping the
rig as well; bending the mast, adjusting the rake, etc.

Now mutiply that effort by all of the sails and systems on the boat,
add in the necessaity of reading not only the wind where you are, but
also the wind where you might be headed, and the what the wind will be
doing in the next minute or next hour.

On and on. It's a lot of fun, but it's not a sport for someone who
just wants to sit on deck with a cold beer.

So why do I bring this up here? Because in the forums of that sailing
website, a discussion broke out about fly fishing. I was almost
stunned to read a post from a guy who loves yacht racing who thought
fly fishing was "too much fuss."

For his better understanding, I responded with an analogy that fly
fishing was to spin fishing as sailing was to powerboats. It's about
the enjoying journey, not reaching the destination as quickly as
possible. Yeah, a took a few poetic stabs at the romance of reading
the water, thinking like a fish, blah, blah, blah. But too much
fuss? Nah.

"rb608" wrote

the water, thinking like a fish, blah, blah, blah. But too much
fuss? Nah.


When I took up fly fishing ( early 1971 is the last time I fished any other
way ) it really was a difficult thing to learn, it was difficult to even
find any gear, let alone good gear, instruction was only available in
person.

Back then, the guys one found with fly rods fell into two categories, those
using a fly rod to fish bait g, and those mature ( of any age) enough as
outdoorsdudes to have moved past the stages of "gotta catch, gotta catch my
limit, gotta catch my limit of big fish, etc" Those mature anglers are
hard to find now, and maybe especially to find carrying a fly rod.

The equipment has vastly improved and is available in nearly every store in
town. Anyone with a DVD player can learn more in one evening than real
world fishing taught in several seasons 'back then' and, sadly, most fly rod
anglers today have NOT grown through the 'more, more, more, bigger, bigger'
stages that all fishermen and hunters eventually go through before they
qualify as 'mature.' They go directly from people whose biggest out door
experience was mowing the lawn, to the fly shop, to the fish pimp guide, to
'50 fish days' often in a $ingle day. Today, many very 'effective' fly
anglers, are poor examples of 'mature outdoorsmen' or even of outdoorsmen,
period.


Personally, I will who always do anything in my power to help a newbie truly
interested in the sport, for it's own deep pleasures and challenges. I
meet a few each year and help all I can. But that type of real interest is
not the motivation many have to pick up a fly rod, in this current culture.

The 'fad years' are passing, thank god, but we already have plenty of those
that simply wanted to travel in 'socially superior foursomes,' be seen in
the 'right' places, display buying power, have the 'in' thing to talk about
at cocktail parties, .... or, even, just 'catch fish.'

Faced with a 'too much fuss' individual, I'd say, "you're right" and hope I
was believed.


Larry L ( who doubts that avid sailors really want to share the limited
space on the water with others that sail to be "in" but really think it's
"too much fuss." Real interest, in any topic, should be encouraged,
'fad interest' discouraged, imho )

On Thu, 19 Feb 2009 10:40:45 -0800 (PST), rb608 wrote:

Because I used to race sailboats and still have an interest therein, I
occasionally browse another site dedicated to the sport. Now, I have
to say up front that racing a sailboat is not a simple exercise. Even
assuming that you have a worthy craft, the level of information,
expertise, preparation, and tuning necessary to be competitive at any
level is substantial.

As an example, allow me to discuss only a simple mainsail. It's a big
triangular piece of what could loosely be called cloth, though it's
probably made of synthetics and composites that didn't exist ten years
ago. Hoisting the main, you have to make sure you don't put too much
tension on the halyard, because that will stretch the foreward edge of
the sail, pulling the draft forward, and messing up the shape you paid
the sailmaker $$$ to build into it. But there is another control used
to more carefully adjust the luff tension, and you need to tighten
that to adjust the position of the draft to suit the wind and sea
conditions. Similarly, you have a control at the aft corner by which
you can pull the sail flatter for more or less power. Depending on
where you set the sheet position with the traveller, you can adjust
the twist. (The wind strength aloft is different than at sea level.)
All of this before you actually trim the sail. There are, of course,
other ways to affect the effectiveness of the mainsail by shaping the
rig as well; bending the mast, adjusting the rake, etc.

Now mutiply that effort by all of the sails and systems on the boat,
add in the necessaity of reading not only the wind where you are, but
also the wind where you might be headed, and the what the wind will be
doing in the next minute or next hour.

On and on. It's a lot of fun, but it's not a sport for someone who
just wants to sit on deck with a cold beer.

I'm not sure what you mean here - no, during a truly competitive race, you
really can't sit on deck with a cocktail, but believe me, racers have one hell
of a time after the race, and a lot of "casual racing" is done with a beer in
one hand.

So why do I bring this up here? Because in the forums of that sailing
website, a discussion broke out about fly fishing. I was almost
stunned to read a post from a guy who loves yacht racing who thought
fly fishing was "too much fuss."

I would offer that it depends on the particulars of his "yacht racing" - if he
came to it recently as a boat owner with little _real_ racing background, he may
be of "our computer can beat yours" school ala the tail end of the America's Cup
12-meter/metre-class through the IACC to today's, well, mess. In the 80s, the
joke was that our Cray can be beat yours.

For his better understanding, I responded with an analogy that fly
fishing was to spin fishing as sailing was to powerboats.

FWIW, powerboats can be just as tricky and demanding as sailboats, and other
forms of fishing can be as tricky and demanding as FFing. I'd offer it's all a
question of perception, and when the practitioner of a single discipline (who
tends to be, um, "elitist" about their single vocation, it's often because they
don't have any real understanding of those that they look to as "lesser."

It's about the enjoying journey,

Often, yep.

not reaching the destination as quickly as possible.

Um, well, you've probably not ever had to outrun a bad storm on blue water,
under power or sail...trust me, "quickly as possible" ain't even half fast
enough...

Yeah, a took a few poetic stabs at the romance of reading
the water, thinking like a fish, blah, blah, blah. But too much
fuss? Nah.

TC,
R

On Feb 19, 3:50*pm, wrote:
but believe me, racers have one hell
of a time after the race, and a lot of "casual racing" is done with a beer in
one hand.

I'd proffer that "casual racing" is an oxymoron; but yeah, a few guys
in our fleet sailed that way. They usually lost. We never opened a
bottle until after the finish line. We won a lot. And we did have a
helluva time later.

I would offer that it depends on the particulars of his "yacht racing"

Like this place, I don't know the players there all that well; but the
overall tone of the place is pretty hard core racing.

FWIW, powerboats can be just as tricky and demanding as sailboats, and other
forms of fishing can be as tricky and demanding as FFing. *

I'll agree that the serious powerboat racers have every bit the
complications as serious sailors, but Joe the Powerboater going from
here to there has it pretty easy by comparison.


Um, well, you've probably not ever had to outrun a bad storm on blue water,
under power or sail...trust me, "quickly as possible" ain't even half fast
enough...

Actually, I *have* lost that race once in open water. 80 kt squall
line, 20 ft boat. The math wasn't good for me. It is an indelible
memory (and not a bad story 20 years later.)

All that said, my point wasn't about the merits of either sport so
much as wondering how anybody who was a serious yacht racer could find
ffing to be too much fuss. I'll guess that if you're a maniac racer
12 months a year, ffing just may not be the simple relaxation you want
in your off hours.

Joe F.

On Feb 19, 2:50*pm, wrote:
On Thu, 19 Feb 2009 10:40:45 -0800 (PST), rb608 wrote:
Because I used to race sailboats and still have an interest therein, I
occasionally browse another site dedicated to the sport. *Now, I have
to say up front that racing a sailboat is not a simple exercise. *Even
assuming that you have a worthy craft, the level of information,
expertise, preparation, and tuning necessary to be competitive at any
level is substantial.

As an example, allow me to discuss only a simple mainsail. *It's a big
triangular piece of what could loosely be called cloth, though it's
probably made of synthetics and composites that didn't exist ten years
ago. *Hoisting the main, you have to make sure you don't put too much
tension on the halyard, because that will stretch the foreward edge of
the sail, pulling the draft forward, and messing up the shape you paid
the sailmaker $$$ to build into it. *But there is another control used
to more carefully adjust the luff tension, and you need to tighten
that to adjust the position of the draft to suit the wind and sea
conditions. *Similarly, you have a control at the aft corner by which
you can pull the sail flatter for more or less power. *Depending on
where you set the sheet position with the traveller, you can adjust
the twist. *(The wind strength aloft is different than at sea level.)
All of this before you actually trim the sail. *There are, of course,
other ways to affect the effectiveness of the mainsail by shaping the
rig as well; bending the mast, adjusting the rake, etc.

Now mutiply that effort by all of the sails and systems on the boat,
add in the necessaity of reading not only the wind where you are, but
also the wind where you might be headed, and the what the wind will be
doing in the next minute or next hour.

On and on. *It's a lot of fun, but it's not a sport for someone who
just wants to sit on deck with a cold beer.

I'm not sure what you mean here - no, during a truly competitive race, you
really can't sit on deck with a cocktail, but believe me, racers have one hell
of a time after the race, and a lot of "casual racing" is done with a beer in
one hand.

So why do I bring this up here? *Because in the forums of that sailing
website, a discussion broke out about fly fishing. *I was almost
stunned to read a post from a guy who loves yacht racing who thought
fly fishing was "too much fuss."

I would offer that it depends on the particulars of his "yacht racing" - if he
came to it recently as a boat owner with little _real_ racing background, he may
be of "our computer can beat yours" school ala the tail end of the America's Cup
12-meter/metre-class through the IACC to today's, well, mess. *In the 80s, the
joke was that our Cray can be beat yours. *

For his better understanding, I responded with an analogy that fly
fishing was to spin fishing as sailing was to powerboats. *

FWIW, powerboats can be just as tricky and demanding as sailboats, and other
forms of fishing can be as tricky and demanding as FFing. *I'd offer it's all a
question of perception, and when the practitioner of a single discipline (who
tends to be, um, "elitist" about their single vocation, it's often because they
don't have any real understanding of those that they look to as "lesser."

It's about the enjoying journey,

Often, yep.

not reaching the destination as quickly as possible. *

Um, well, you've probably not ever had to outrun a bad storm on blue water,
under power or sail...

I don't know anyone who has ever "outrun" a storm on blue water. You
either avoid it or get ready to ride it out.

cheers

oz

On Feb 19, 1:46*pm, "Larry L" wrote:
"rb608" wrote

the water, thinking like a fish, blah, blah, blah. *But too much
fuss? *Nah.

When I took up fly fishing ( early 1971 is the last time I fished any other
way ) it really was a difficult thing to learn, it was difficult to even
find any gear, let alone good gear, instruction was only available in
person.

Back then, the guys one found with fly rods fell into two categories, those
using a fly rod to fish bait g, and those mature ( of any age) enough as
outdoorsdudes to have moved past the stages of "gotta catch, gotta catch my
limit, gotta catch my limit of big fish, etc" * * Those mature anglers are
hard to find now, and maybe especially to find carrying a fly rod.

The equipment has vastly improved and is available in nearly every store in
town. * Anyone with a DVD player can learn more in one evening than real
world fishing taught in several seasons 'back then' and, sadly, most fly rod
anglers today have NOT grown through the 'more, more, more, bigger, bigger'
stages that all fishermen and hunters eventually go through before they
qualify as 'mature.' * * They go directly from people whose biggest out door
experience was mowing the lawn, to the fly shop, to the fish pimp guide, to
'50 fish days' often in a $ingle day. * * Today, many very 'effective' fly
anglers, are poor examples of 'mature outdoorsmen' or even of outdoorsmen,
period.

Personally, I will who always do anything in my power to help a newbie truly
interested in the sport, for it's own deep pleasures and challenges. * * I
meet a few each year and help all I can. *But that type of real interest is
not the motivation many have to pick up a fly rod, in this current culture.

The 'fad years' are passing, thank god, but we already have plenty of those
that simply wanted to travel in 'socially superior foursomes,' *be seen in
the 'right' places, display buying power, have the 'in' thing to talk about
at cocktail parties, .... or, even, *just 'catch fish.'

While I appreciated Redford's adaptation of the book, I regret the
overrun it has created. As you seem to predict, I hope the fad
dissipates and we can "get back to it". Just like skiing once was
fun, it is now all lost.

cheers

oz

On Sun, 1 Mar 2009 21:10:13 -0800 (PST), MajorOz wrote:

On Feb 19, 2:50*pm, wrote:

Um, well, you've probably not ever had to outrun a bad storm on blue water,
under power or sail...

I don't know anyone who has ever "outrun" a storm on blue water. You
either avoid it or get ready to ride it out.

cheers

oz

Then you don't know anyone who has radar and a radio...

Seriously, though, I'm not sure what you mean, but I've "outrun" (and been on
boats that have "outrun") any number of storms. But I've avoided them
(sometimes by not going out) and ridden a few out, too.

Funny "squall" story - we (two couples) and a Bermuda-based captain hitching a
ride to one of the other islands were sailing in the Abacos, out on the Atlantic
side, with myself and the captain being the only ones out of the five with any
real blue water experience. As you may know, _fresh_ water on a sailboat in
that area is expensive water, so while the three novices were below, busying
themselves with being, um, less-than-not-green, the hitching skipper and I were
up on the deck in nothing but harnesses showering in the free fresh water (if
you do much blue water sailing/boating, you probably know that a Joy-less
washoff is always welcome...). We finally got my novice buddy up to the wheel,
but his girlfriend, along with mine, stayed below, groaning and making comments
about how we were out of our ****ing minds...

TC,
R

On Mar 3, 9:57*pm, wrote:
Funny "squall" story - we (two couples) and a Bermuda-based captain hitching a
ride to one of the other islands were sailing in the Abacos, out on the Atlantic
side, with myself and the captain being the only ones out of the five with any
real blue water experience. *As you may know, _fresh_ water on a sailboat in
that area is expensive water, so while the three novices were below, busying
themselves with being, um, less-than-not-green, the hitching skipper and I were
up on the deck in nothing but harnesses showering in the free fresh water (if
you do much blue water sailing/boating, you probably know that a Joy-less
washoff is always welcome...). *We finally got my novice buddy up to the wheel,
but his girlfriend, along with mine, stayed below, groaning and making comments
about how we were out of our ****ing minds...

I really have no idea what you're talking about, but it sounds like a
Cap'n Stabbin' adventure that I *don't* want to see.

On Wed, 4 Mar 2009 04:23:01 -0800 (PST), "mr.rapidan" wrote:

On Mar 3, 9:57*pm, wrote:
Funny "squall" story - we (two couples) and a Bermuda-based captain hitching a
ride to one of the other islands were sailing in the Abacos, out on the Atlantic
side, with myself and the captain being the only ones out of the five with any
real blue water experience. *As you may know, _fresh_ water on a sailboat in
that area is expensive water, so while the three novices were below, busying
themselves with being, um, less-than-not-green, the hitching skipper and I were
up on the deck in nothing but harnesses showering in the free fresh water (if
you do much blue water sailing/boating, you probably know that a Joy-less
washoff is always welcome...). *We finally got my novice buddy up to the wheel,
but his girlfriend, along with mine, stayed below, groaning and making comments
about how we were out of our ****ing minds...

I really have no idea what you're talking about, but it sounds like a
Cap'n Stabbin' adventure that I *don't* want to see.

I really have no idea what you're talking about.

Huh?
R

On Mar 4, 9:11*am, wrote:
On Wed, 4 Mar 2009 04:23:01 -0800 (PST), "mr.rapidan" wrote:
On Mar 3, 9:57*pm, wrote:
Funny "squall" story - we (two couples) and a Bermuda-based captain hitching a
ride to one of the other islands were sailing in the Abacos, out on the Atlantic
side, with myself and the captain being the only ones out of the five with any
real blue water experience. *As you may know, _fresh_ water on a sailboat in
that area is expensive water, so while the three novices were below, busying
themselves with being, um, less-than-not-green, the hitching skipper and I were
up on the deck in nothing but harnesses showering in the free fresh water (if
you do much blue water sailing/boating, you probably know that a Joy-less
washoff is always welcome...). *We finally got my novice buddy up to the wheel,
but his girlfriend, along with mine, stayed below, groaning and making comments
about how we were out of our ****ing minds...

I really have no idea what you're talking about, but it sounds like a
Cap'n Stabbin' adventure that I *don't* want to see.

I really have no idea what you're talking about.

Huh?
R

In other words, my mental picture had developed quite far enough when
it was just you and the skipper naked in the harnesses above decks,
with the girls groaning below. A friendly joke, man.