NOVICE QUESTIONS

OK, Here are some queations for the experienced trouters:

1. If I make my own leaders, the last section (at the tip), is, say 3X. I
tie a tippet to that of, say 2 feet. as the tippet gets used up with
changing flies, how do I tie on a new tippet without losing some of the tip
section of the leader?

2. If I'm tying leader to line, using a nail knot, and I have to change
leader because I've gone from a #16 hook to a #8 streamer, I lose some of
the line tip. After 20 of these changes, I've lost 10 inches of line. Is
there any solution to this?

3. How much better is it to use a nail knot to tie leader to line than to
use those slip-on loop connectors. All the tapered leaders I've seen so far
have a loop tied on the butt end, and cutting it off and tying a nail knot,
I lose a couple of inches of leader at that end.

4. I'm currently fishing in a small lake, (the trout season is over in the
streams & rivers.), about 1/4 mile diameter. It has 3 springs that feed it,
I'm told, and it is 35 ft. deep somewhere in the middle. It was stocked with
4800 rainbow trout in the fall of 2004. I've caught a 2 eaters since Sept.
16, (fishing once a week), but I'm told that there are some very large trout
in the lake, (maybe 20 lb). I've tried everything I know at this point,
(which may be not much). No one is catching much there, those that do are
fishing worms.

I see in Kaufman's catalog: Spring Creek Leaders- 13' leaders for delicate
presentations to spooky fish in lakes and slow streams. Could this help?

I've tried wet, dry, streamers, nymphs and leeches. ZIP!

-- Lionel

Lionel 1. If I make my own leaders, the last section (at the tip),
Lionel is, say 3X. I tie a tippet to that of, say 2 feet. as the
Lionel tippet gets used up with changing flies, how do I tie on a
Lionel new tippet without losing some of the tip section of the
Lionel leader?

a) Use loops (some really do this).
b) Just don't care. Retie the tip once it gets too short. Then you
will lose some line from the next section, but much more rarely.

Lionel 2. If I'm tying leader to line, using a nail knot, and I have
Lionel to change leader because I've gone from a #16 hook to a #8
Lionel streamer, I lose some of the line tip. After 20 of these
Lionel changes, I've lost 10 inches of line. Is there any solution
Lionel to this?

Yes, and I use it all the time. At the beginning of the season, tie
approximately a foot of thick mono (the same thickness as the butt of
your leader - typically .21" for a 5wt or a 6wt) to the end of the fly
line. Then tie your leaders to this semi-permanent section. Once the
semi-permanent section gets too short, tie a new one. I use the nail
knot to tie the semi-permanent section to the line, and a blood knot
to attach the leader to the semi-permanent section.

When you tie a leader to this semi-permanent section, you can shorten
the butt of the leader by the current length of the semi-permanent
section.

Lionel 3. How much better is it to use a nail knot to tie leader to
Lionel line than to use those slip-on loop connectors. All the
Lionel tapered leaders I've seen so far have a loop tied on the
Lionel butt end, and cutting it off and tying a nail knot, I lose
Lionel a couple of inches of leader at that end.

I'm not sure if losing those couple of inches matter, but if you want
to avoid it, just use the method described above (semi-permanent
section), and you won't have this problem anymore.

Lionel 4. I'm currently fishing in a small lake ...

Lionel I see in Kaufman's catalog: Spring Creek Leaders- 13' leaders
Lionel for delicate presentations to spooky fish in lakes and slow
Lionel streams. Could this help?

Lionel I've tried wet, dry, streamers, nymphs and leeches. ZIP!

I'll pass this one.

--
Jarmo Hurri

Commercial email countermeasures included in header email
address. Remove all garbage from header email address when replying,
or just use .

Lionel F. Stevenson typed:
OK, Here are some queations for the experienced trouters:

.. . . or me, whichever comes first.

1. If I make my own leaders, the last section (at the tip), is, say
3X. I tie a tippet to that of, say 2 feet. as the tippet gets used up
with changing flies, how do I tie on a new tippet without losing some
of the tip section of the leader?

You don't. You're always going to lose a bit in the knot.

2. If I'm tying leader to line, using a nail knot, and I have to
change leader because I've gone from a #16 hook to a #8 streamer, I
lose some of the line tip. After 20 of these changes, I've lost 10
inches of line. Is there any solution to this?

Quit changing your leader so much and just tie on the right size tippet to
the butt section. For each line I use, I typically tie on one leader per
year to the line, and go through a LOT of tippet material.

3. How much better is it to use a nail knot to tie leader to line
than to use those slip-on loop connectors. All the tapered leaders
I've seen so far have a loop tied on the butt end, and cutting it off
and tying a nail knot, I lose a couple of inches of leader at that
end.

Hoo, boy. Leader loops vs. nail knots. We've beaten this one to death over
the years. Do a search in this group for "loop connectors" or "nail knot"
and you'll find some real battles about this.

4. I'm currently fishing in a small lake, (the trout season is over
in the streams & rivers.), about 1/4 mile diameter. It has 3 springs
that feed it, I'm told, and it is 35 ft. deep somewhere in the
middle. It was stocked with 4800 rainbow trout in the fall of 2004.
I've caught a 2 eaters since Sept. 16, (fishing once a week), but I'm
told that there are some very large trout in the lake, (maybe 20 lb).
I've tried everything I know at this point, (which may be not much).
No one is catching much there, those that do are fishing worms.

I see in Kaufman's catalog: Spring Creek Leaders- 13' leaders for
delicate presentations to spooky fish in lakes and slow streams.
Could this help?

I've tried wet, dry, streamers, nymphs and leeches. ZIP!

If the trout are down at 35 feet, a 13 foot leader isn't going to help. Get
a sinking fly line.
--
HTH,
Tim
------------------------
http://css.sbcma.com/timj/

Hey Lionel; let me add my opinion to the fray:

1) Unless you use leader loops, you will always lose some of the leader
tip when you tie on a new tippet. But the philosophy is that, about the
time that you have lost so much leader that its pretty much all butt
section, the leader is pretty worn out anyway. I find that my leaders
go through three distinct phases.
A) New Leader, where I am just replacing the very tip with 4x or 5x
tippet,
B) Worn-in Leader, where I am replacing the midsection with 3X, then
tying on some 4X or 5X tippet. Its pretty much imitating a self-tied
leader at this point, and actually is at its most versatile, as I can
vary the lengths of the 3X and 5X segments to order.
C) Trashed Leader, where I just use the Butt section for an extension
of the line, as Jarmo describes.

2) Don't change leaders so much. The butt end of various leaders does
not vary all that much, as they are geared to be close the the fly LINE
thickness, not correlated to the tippet thickness. If you go from a #16
to a #8, it only affects the tip. In those cases, I cut off the tippet
back to the middle of the leader, then tie on a new heavier tippet for
the #8. When I go back to the #16, I tie on the first segment again. I
usually have 2 or 3 different tippet segments in my pocket for
different flies sizes.

3) I used to swear by those loop-to-loop connectors, as there was
something so neat and appealing about how they connected. I also liked
the idea that I could change out a leader and still salvage the old
one. However, I find that I almost NEVER change out leaders with any
intent to reuse the old one, and I have had one too many of those damn
loops slip off the fly line and I've watched the leader, tippet and fly
go bye-bye. I started gumming up the whole loop-to-loop thing with
zap-a-gap, but quickly decided that it was better (and smoother in the
top guide) to just tie on a nail knot and coat it with some sealant.
I'll never go back to those loop connectors again. YMMV, of course.

4) Long leaders are a serious pain to cast. You may get one or two
false casts out of it before you get all tangled up and knotted and
ruin it anyway. If you want to try a long leader, try extending an old
tippet by adding a 3-ft section of 4X to the middle, then a 3-ft
section of 5X to the tip. But I find that long leaders in the 13 foot
range ONLY work for when you are in a belly boat, and instead of
casting you just strip out line and let it sink. Of course, that
implies that you are using a weighted fly and a sinking line.

--riverman

"riverman" wrote in news:1129210593.103924.58460
@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:

, and I have had one too many of those damn
loops slip off the fly line and I've watched the leader, tippet and fly
go bye-bye.

I've heard tale of that happening, and I've always wondered why it happens.
My own experience is that it's pretty easy to see if a braided loop is
failing--generally weeks to months in advance of the actual failure.

At some point, the loop looks like an accident waiting to happen, and you
replace it.

--
Scott
Reverse name to reply

I've lost my entire far-end rigging twice, Scott. Once was when I had
just slid on a new loop-to-loop connector and leader, and it all came
off within minutes. I was quite certain that I had attached it
properly, but I did not use any glue to tie it on. I chalk that one up
to newbie cluelessness.

After that, I started lashing the bottom of the connector with thread
as well as with goop, which served a nice double purpose as an strike
indicator (the line was light green, the thread was red). However, that
whole mess came off during the second year (I think), when I caught a
snag in the river and pulled back on it to break off the tippet.
Instead, the loop slipped off and the line came back bare. I had been
fishing it for over a year, and it had not showed any signs of coming
apart, although it did look like the fly line, which was up inside the
loop connector about 3 inches, had slipped back maybe 1/8 inch or less.
It didn't seem to be enough to cause any alarm, although it did add
some hinge action to the connection. Since the whole thing went away, I
don't know what caused it to come free...I have heard that, if you tie
on the connector at the base, it changes how the connector 'holds on'
to the fly line, and actually can decrease its 'chinese fingercuff'
effect.

I dunno, I just quit using them, that's all, and never looked back.

--riverman

"Lionel F. Stevenson" schrieb im Newsbeitrag
...
OK, Here are some queations for the experienced trouters:

1. If I make my own leaders, the last section (at the tip), is, say 3X. I
tie a tippet to that of, say 2 feet. as the tippet gets used up with
changing flies, how do I tie on a new tippet without losing some of the
tip
section of the leader?


You can not do so using knots. A piece of the leader is always cut off.
You can however use "Leader rings". See here;
http://www.feather-craft.com/2005Sum...age.asp?page=5

The tippet is then tied to the ring, and the leader stays intact.


2. If I'm tying leader to line, using a nail knot, and I have to change
leader because I've gone from a #16 hook to a #8 streamer, I lose some of
the line tip. After 20 of these changes, I've lost 10 inches of line. Is
there any solution to this?

Yes. Whip a loop of 20 lb nylon to the end of the line. Loop the leaders to
this.

http://www.associatedinternet.com/fl...1/assembly.htm

Here are some other useful knots;
http://www.associatedinternet.com/fl...g101/knots.htm

3. How much better is it to use a nail knot to tie leader to line than to
use those slip-on loop connectors. All the tapered leaders I've seen so
far
have a loop tied on the butt end, and cutting it off and tying a nail
knot,
I lose a couple of inches of leader at that end.


See above.

4. I'm currently fishing in a small lake, (the trout season is over in the
streams & rivers.), about 1/4 mile diameter. It has 3 springs that feed
it,
I'm told, and it is 35 ft. deep somewhere in the middle. It was stocked
with
4800 rainbow trout in the fall of 2004. I've caught a 2 eaters since Sept.
16, (fishing once a week), but I'm told that there are some very large
trout
in the lake, (maybe 20 lb). I've tried everything I know at this point,
(which may be not much). No one is catching much there, those that do are
fishing worms.


You need to try some proven stillwater tactics.
http://flyanglersonline.com/features/lakes/archive.html

I see in Kaufman's catalog: Spring Creek Leaders- 13' leaders for delicate
presentations to spooky fish in lakes and slow streams. Could this help?


It could, but read the above first.

I've tried wet, dry, streamers, nymphs and leeches. ZIP!

You need to match the hatch. Just using any old fly will seldom work. A
woolly bugger is often a good choice of fly to start with, Olive and black
are pretty good patterns.
http://www.westfly.com/patterns/wet/woollybugger.shtml

In deep water, when the trout are not on the surface, you need a sinking
line to reach them. Using the "count down method". Cast, and start counting
in seconds before starting your retrieve, you can find the feeding depth.


-- Lionel


TL
MC

"Lionel F. Stevenson" wrote in message
...
OK, Here are some queations for the experienced trouters:

1. If I make my own leaders, the last section (at the tip), is, say 3X. I
tie a tippet to that of, say 2 feet. as the tippet gets used up with
changing flies, how do I tie on a new tippet without losing some of the
tip
section of the leader?

You can't. You should only lose a couple inches though. Once you've lost a
foot or more, tie on 2 feet of 3X to your leader, and then start again with
new tippet.

2. If I'm tying leader to line, using a nail knot, and I have to change
leader because I've gone from a #16 hook to a #8 streamer, I lose some of
the line tip. After 20 of these changes, I've lost 10 inches of line. Is
there any solution to this?

Use just a very short section of leader (6-12") to nail knot to your line.
Then make a loop in it and connect your leader to this with a loop to loop
connection. Or, nail knot a longer section (several feet) to your fly line,
then tie your leader onto this part. As you tie on new leaders, you will
only lose inches off this section of leader.

3. How much better is it to use a nail knot to tie leader to line than to
use those slip-on loop connectors. All the tapered leaders I've seen so
far
have a loop tied on the butt end, and cutting it off and tying a nail
knot,
I lose a couple of inches of leader at that end.

Losing a copule inches of leader makes no difference. I've never noticed
any difference in strength with the loop to loop connections (remember that
is the strongest part of your leader. Your tippet will break long before
that section.) Sometimes it can catch a little in your tip guide though.

I see in Kaufman's catalog: Spring Creek Leaders- 13' leaders for delicate
presentations to spooky fish in lakes and slow streams. Could this help?

Probably not. You have to learn how the fish are feeding first.