footprints

I'd bet that most people actually interested in fly fishing and the places
fish live are also interested in minimizing their personal negative impact
on the planet. In matters environmental, "Think globally, act locally" is
a good motto, imho. With that in mind I plug away at little projects
designed to help mitigate my passage. I plant a new tree here and there,
plan trips to minimise fossel fuel usage, donate money to protect special
places, etc.

One such project was recently adding solar panels to my travel trailer, to
keep the batteries charged. I camp mostly in undeveloped sites and run my
Honda generator to keep the batteries up and use my OTT lights for fly tying
.... or that was the old way. I've had them installed a couple weeks now
and even in the low angled early March sun, my tests show that they are
likely to almost eliminate my use of the generator. I also got a small
inverter and even the OTT lights no longer require my burning gasoline.
Certainly not salvation for the planet, or even noticable really, but that
is the point, little things add up to big ones.

And, I won't have to listen to, and smell, the generator .... maybe my main
point here is that cleaner living, walking lighter on the planet, is SELF
serving.


I post this for two reasons,
(1) to pat myself on the back a bit as I take pride in my little efforts to
reduce my impact, and
(2) to encourage others to make a small change or two. You won't notice
it by itself, but if we all save a bit of gas, coal, or heating fuel or take
care to walk a little more lightly on the Earth in other ways the total
result will be noticed .... by our kids and grandkids and the seventh
generation.



Environmental issues seem to become political issues but I see them as
personal ones ... ones that DO and WILL affect ME and MY family, now and for
generations. And even though I'm a "liberal, tree hugging ex-hippie" I
don't think government is often the real key to solving environmental
problems ( regardless of which ones you may believe are 'real' ) ...
individual, or small group, action motivated by self serving concern for the
future health and happiness of our own families will prove to be "the
answer" if one is found .... and what can be more "conservative" than that?

Do something this week to make your personal world a little cleaner and less
poluting, it can't hurt the planet, and it will make your part just a tiny
bit nicer. ( And I promise not to snitch to your right wing friends, it can
be our little secret :-)

On Mar 14, 9:45 am, "Larry L" wrote:
One such project was recently adding solar panels to my travel trailer, to
keep the batteries charged.

That's pretty cool. I've been wanting to add solar panels to my
house,
but I'm planning on moving within the next year. The capital
investment
is just too large unless you're planning on living there for at least
5-10 years.

Regardless, that's great.
- Ken

I'm in the process of having a house built for my family. More for
the wiff and I, since the kids are out of the house.
I'm building the house to be "green." Geothermal heating and cooling,
low flow water systems, high R-value insulation using Structural
Insulated Panels or SIP, recycled/recovered materials (including fly
ash "cement"). My energy usage should be about 1/3 to 1/4 of the
standard house of this size. We're even considering solar cells.
I had one "bubba" call me a tree hugging liberal because of this. I
politely (smirk here) responded that with all of his energy usage and
his big truck he had to buy more oil to run all of this than I would.
We buy most of that energy from countries inimical to our "American"
way of life, such as Russia, Iran and Venuzuela. As a matter of fact,
some of that money is used to make weapons for and give support to
folks that are killing Americans and whose stated goal is the
overthrow of the US. I finalized my statement (thank ROFF here) by
asking "why do you hate America so much."
By the way, its really fun watching some bubba's head explode like
something out of a Monty Python skit.
Oh, by the way, my long term goal is less footprint and less pain on
the wallet.
Frank Reid

"Larry L" wrote in message
...
snip
I post this for two reasons,
(1) to pat myself on the back a bit as I take pride in my little efforts
to reduce my impact, and
(2) to encourage others to make a small change or two. You won't notice
it by itself, but if we all save a bit of gas, coal, or heating fuel or
take care to walk a little more lightly on the Earth in other ways the
total result will be noticed .... by our kids and grandkids and the
seventh generation.

I applaud you for trying to lesssen your use of fossil fuel. But something
I always wonder about when I hear about this type of action - Have you
actually reduced your life cycle fossil fuel usage by installing such things
as solar panels on a travel trailer.. How long would you need to run your
generator to reach the break even point of the added fuel usage of your
vehicle due to the added weight and air resistance of the panels. Also how
about the energy expended to produce solar panels. I am assuming that you
would still have the generator as a backup.
I'm not asking this to bust your chops. It is something I'd really like to
know (but have been too lazy to research). Given the large number of experts
(at giving opinions) in ROFF, I'm sure that I'll get a lot of feed back.

Bob Weinberger La Grande, OR

On 14 Mar 2007 10:17:15 -0700, "
wrote:

On Mar 14, 9:45 am, "Larry L" wrote:
One such project was recently adding solar panels to my travel trailer, to
keep the batteries charged.

That's pretty cool. I've been wanting to add solar panels to my
house,
but I'm planning on moving within the next year. The capital
investment
is just too large unless you're planning on living there for at least
5-10 years.

Regardless, that's great.
- Ken

Take 'em with you. Panels in the 100-200 (about 18" x 42"-60" or so)
watt range aren't that heavy or large, and 18-20 can be moved fairly
easily. Mount the transfer switch, inverter, etc. on a panel, and if
you can't do the wireup yourself, an electrician shouldn't charge all
that much to handle the unhook-rehook IF the set-up is done properly and
depending on whether you can/want to sell back to the grid. I have a
few such panels and converters that I've rigged for use on boats,
camping, etc. - two 150s (300 watts total at 24vdc) and an converter (to
12v regulated) can easily be carried by one person, even a smaller lady.

TC,
R

On Mar 14, 1:40 pm, "Bob Weinberger"
wrote:
"Larry L" wrote in message

...
snip I post this for two reasons,
(1) to pat myself on the back a bit as I take pride in my little efforts
to reduce my impact, and
(2) to encourage others to make a small change or two. You won't notice
it by itself, but if we all save a bit of gas, coal, or heating fuel or
take care to walk a little more lightly on the Earth in other ways the
total result will be noticed .... by our kids and grandkids and the
seventh generation.

I applaud you for trying to lesssen your use of fossil fuel. But something
I always wonder about when I hear about this type of action - Have you
actually reduced your life cycle fossil fuel usage by installing such things
as solar panels on a travel trailer.. How long would you need to run your
generator to reach the break even point of the added fuel usage of your
vehicle due to the added weight and air resistance of the panels. Also how
about the energy expended to produce solar panels. I am assuming that you
would still have the generator as a backup.
I'm not asking this to bust your chops. It is something I'd really like to
know (but have been too lazy to research). Given the large number of experts
(at giving opinions) in ROFF, I'm sure that I'll get a lot of feed back.

I've never owned a house or any kind of vehicle that would make solar
panels of any use to me, but I've known a lot of people with one or
the other....or both....and have, for the last 30 years or so, made
periodic forays with them into the labyrinthine world of cost/benefit
analyses for alternate energy sources. I have learned that you can
pick whatever numbers you like and then, with a minimum of effort
(especially since the advent of the internet), go out and find ample
justification for them. I have not yet given up hope that some sort
of accessible and useable truth lies out there somewhere......but wish
good luck to anyone looking for it.

Without going into detail (much of which is predicated on gut feeling,
anyway), it seems to me that direct conversion of sunlight into
electricity doesn't look nearly as attractive and promising as it did
20 or 30 years ago. One of the fundamental problems, I suspect, is
that materials that are economically and environmentally cheap to
produce, and that stand up well to years of exposure to sunlight and
weather (say, concrete, for example), are thoroughly useless precisely
because they are so stable......they don't react appreciably to the
energy in sunlight. Materials that ARE useful are so precisely
because they DO react to that energy and they pay the price for
considerably less than 100 % efficiency of conversion in
deterioration.....and consequent reduced efficiency. They also happen
to be relatively expensive to produce.

Wind power, which depends on very mature technologies....metallurgy,
turbines, vane design, generators, etc....and abundant
materials.....aluminum is the most common metal (and third most common
element) in the planet's crust and is virtually infinitely recyclable,
and iron is right behind.....seems like a no brainer for large scale
electrical power generation.

But then, that doesn't help a bit for an RV, does it?

Wolfgang

On Wed, 14 Mar 2007 19:40:28 GMT, "Bob Weinberger"
wrote:


"Larry L" wrote in message
...
snip
I post this for two reasons,
(1) to pat myself on the back a bit as I take pride in my little efforts
to reduce my impact, and
(2) to encourage others to make a small change or two. You won't notice
it by itself, but if we all save a bit of gas, coal, or heating fuel or
take care to walk a little more lightly on the Earth in other ways the
total result will be noticed .... by our kids and grandkids and the
seventh generation.

I applaud you for trying to lesssen your use of fossil fuel. But something
I always wonder about when I hear about this type of action - Have you
actually reduced your life cycle fossil fuel usage by installing such things
as solar panels on a travel trailer.. How long would you need to run your
generator to reach the break even point of the added fuel usage of your
vehicle due to the added weight and air resistance of the panels. Also how
about the energy expended to produce solar panels. I am assuming that you
would still have the generator as a backup.
I'm not asking this to bust your chops. It is something I'd really like to
know (but have been too lazy to research). Given the large number of experts
(at giving opinions) in ROFF, I'm sure that I'll get a lot of feed back.

I can't answer for Larry, but I can tell you that on boats or camping,
the solar panels don't add enough weight to make a real difference in
fuel usage. As to air resistance, we don't leave them out when moving,
so there is none, but if they were placed flat on the roof of a trailer,
the few extra inches of surface area wouldn't account for much, and
certainly not enough to outweigh the panels' use.

As to larger "raw" panel use with 12v systems, there's not much to
research, really: get a panel, hook it to an appropriate DC
converter/regulator, and then hook up whatever 12v stuff you wish to
use. Place panel in sun. Add a charging circuit/regulator to charge
storage batteries (deep cycles). Don't break panel(s).

TC,
R

Bob Weinberger La Grande, OR

On 14 Mar 2007 13:20:43 -0700, "Wolfgang" wrote:

On Mar 14, 1:40 pm, "Bob Weinberger"
wrote:
"Larry L" wrote in message

...
snip I post this for two reasons,
(1) to pat myself on the back a bit as I take pride in my little efforts
to reduce my impact, and
(2) to encourage others to make a small change or two. You won't notice
it by itself, but if we all save a bit of gas, coal, or heating fuel or
take care to walk a little more lightly on the Earth in other ways the
total result will be noticed .... by our kids and grandkids and the
seventh generation.

I applaud you for trying to lesssen your use of fossil fuel. But something
I always wonder about when I hear about this type of action - Have you
actually reduced your life cycle fossil fuel usage by installing such things
as solar panels on a travel trailer.. How long would you need to run your
generator to reach the break even point of the added fuel usage of your
vehicle due to the added weight and air resistance of the panels. Also how
about the energy expended to produce solar panels. I am assuming that you
would still have the generator as a backup.
I'm not asking this to bust your chops. It is something I'd really like to
know (but have been too lazy to research). Given the large number of experts
(at giving opinions) in ROFF, I'm sure that I'll get a lot of feed back.

I've never owned a house or any kind of vehicle that would make solar
panels of any use to me, but I've known a lot of people with one or
the other....or both....and have, for the last 30 years or so, made
periodic forays with them into the labyrinthine world of cost/benefit
analyses for alternate energy sources. I have learned that you can
pick whatever numbers you like and then, with a minimum of effort
(especially since the advent of the internet), go out and find ample
justification for them. I have not yet given up hope that some sort
of accessible and useable truth lies out there somewhere......but wish
good luck to anyone looking for it.

Without going into detail (much of which is predicated on gut feeling,
anyway), it seems to me that direct conversion of sunlight into
electricity doesn't look nearly as attractive and promising as it did
20 or 30 years ago. One of the fundamental problems, I suspect, is
that materials that are economically and environmentally cheap to
produce, and that stand up well to years of exposure to sunlight and
weather (say, concrete, for example), are thoroughly useless precisely
because they are so stable......they don't react appreciably to the
energy in sunlight. Materials that ARE useful are so precisely
because they DO react to that energy and they pay the price for
considerably less than 100 % efficiency of conversion in
deterioration.....and consequent reduced efficiency. They also happen
to be relatively expensive to produce.

Wind power, which depends on very mature technologies....metallurgy,
turbines, vane design, generators, etc....and abundant
materials.....aluminum is the most common metal (and third most common
element) in the planet's crust and is virtually infinitely recyclable,
and iron is right behind.....seems like a no brainer for large scale
electrical power generation.

But then, that doesn't help a bit for an RV, does it?

Wrong on many counts and levels. Concrete, stone, and other "stable"
materials are useful as solar energy collectors, and they do "react" in
sunlight. Ever stepped barehooved on directly-in-the-sun concrete or
asphalt in the summer? And why would you guess cities are generally
warmer than their surrounding areas? Moreover, the main failure of
properly-constructed and framed solar panels, IME, is from physical
damage, not "deterioration." I have a set of old Solarex 110s that
spend many years in the West Texas sun (on a well) and are still going
strong. IAC, technology is vastly improving in that area, making cost
per watt cheaper and cheaper.

Wind power is great in certain applications, but there are still
maintenance, damage, and wear issues on large systems. If you've ever
seen just one of the big GE blades being moved, you'd soon realize that
it ain't just a matter of crushing a few beer cans into shape and
FedEx'ing it to where it needs to go.

And wind power is both used and readily available for boats and RVs. Go
into any West Marine store (or online) and for around a grand, you can
get a complete set-up for such usage. With a little looking and a bit
of tinkering, most folks can come out for a lot less. Heck, take an old
windmill, a genset, and an RPM regulation system, and ta-da, wind power.

Don't really give a **** if this helps,
Dickie

Wolfgang

"Bob Weinberger" wrote


.. But something
I always wonder about when I hear about this type of action - Have you
actually reduced your life cycle fossil fuel usage by installing such
things as solar panels on a travel trailer..

I always TRY to factor in this type thing and no doubt sometimes fail to do
so accurately.

As for this particular solar application, my guess, based on past summers,
is that it will take about 2 1/2 summer's to pay ( out of pocket cost ) for
the panels in gas saved at the generator. I "think" it's safe to assume
MUCH longer life from the panels than that based on my research and product
reviews I've read ( there were 17 posted on the site where I got the panels
with one being a 4 star and all the others 5 star ratings.) In terms of
the environmental costs of producing the panels vs the environmental
advantages ... I don't honestly know, but there isn't much to them, some
Vinyl, some glass, and whatever the actual photon grabber stuff is ( not to
get too techy G) .... seem to be made much like modern vinyl home windows,
well sealed, simple, tough.

When you consider that I've had moose wander within 50 yards of my trailer,
the non-tangible benefits of not running the generator might occasionally be
like the silly credit card commercial .... priceless G

PS I wish "real environmental cost" figures were more available .... if I
was a young man, in college and looking for a future, I might give hard
thought about ways to provide such information while paying my bills doing
so. It is a need that will grow as more people begin to understand that
Momma Earth has limits on how much abuse she is going to take, and "fuel"
becomes ever more costly in money and lives.

wrote


so there is none, but if they were placed flat on the roof of a trailer,
the few extra inches of surface area wouldn't account for much, and
certainly not enough to outweigh the panels' use.



the ones I got are 1/2 inch thick and weigh under 15 pounds each ( the
shipping weight was 15 including packing and fudge factor )

The way I mounted them won't give me maximum output but will give them
maximum protection from accidental damage .... I worry about that more than
the panels "wearing out" before paying for themselves

( I ran my first
travel trailer into the corner of our house the first time I took it on a
trip, the second one was smashed into a million pieces, and I was lucky to
live through the process, when a double semi-truck filled with gravel
literally drove through the trailer, the current trailer had it's roof
railing torn off on it's first trip to fish Hot Creek about 8 years ago { I
HAD to be under a tree} and I poked a small hole in the rubber roof on it's
latest journey when I just HAD to park under a tree at Hayspur while there
to fish Silver Creek ...trust me you don't want to be my trailer :-)