The time has come, the walrus said,

On Mar 23, 9:07*am, Myron Buck wrote:
On Mar 22, 9:02*am, "dr.narcolepsy" wrote:





On Mar 21, 8:45*pm, Bob wrote:

On Mar 19, 4:29*am, Giles wrote:

On Mar 19, 3:12*am, Bob wrote:

Actually the type of accident you describe (here in big timber country
we call it a barber chair) is *one of the most common causes of death
or serious injury in timber falling accidents.

Never heard the term "barber chair" before in this context. *Easy
enough to understand, though. *It's also easy to believe that it ranks
high as a cause of death or injury. *Do you have ready access to any
numbers?

*Many years ago when I was involved in logging supervision, I used to
receive regular accident reports from Oregon OSHA on serious logging
accidents. *Death & serious injury from barber chairs were always high
on the list. *I imagine OSHA still keeps such statistics.

Many
(including Birch) are quite prone to splitting as you described
sometime during the back cut - especially if they have a heavy lean.

I've seen it happen a couple of times myself. *Didn't know that birch
was a frequent offender.

Though many saw hands scoff at the practice as being sissy, the safest
way to fell such trees is to bind the butt (immediately above where
the top of the notch cut will be) with heavy duty nylon webbing (made
to handle the extreme forces involved) before starting any cuts.

This, too, is news to me. *I'd appreciate any more inofrmation you
could provide as I'll be doing a lot of cutting here in the next few
months.

I probably should have used the term strapping rather then webbing.
The type of nylon web strap that log truck drivers in many areas use
to bind down their loads is what is used. Any good saw shop in an area
where there is much commercial logging going on could make one up for
you in a size to handle the size trees you will be working with. *It
should be used on any tree with a very heavy lean (especially
hardwoods) or one with a very unbalanced crown (heavy in the direction
of fall).

The
old saying that "There are bold timber fallers and there are old
timber fallers, but few are lucky enough to be old bold timber
fallers." is quite true.

There have been times and arenas in life when I've flirted with the
bold thing. *I was lucky. *I try hard not to do that anymore. *Never
did it in connection with tree falling. *But, like just about anyone,
I suppose, I've been careless on occasion. *I don't think Karl was
particularly bold.....and he was certainly getting old at 69. *He may
or may not have been careless.....I don't know whether he had ever
heard of the practice of binding trees with webbing.

At any rate, it now looks as if this "bad luck" may have been
preventable. *Casts the whole mess in a different light.

Much to think about.

Thanks, Bob

giles

Bob Weinberger * *DuPont, WA

Hi, everyone. *Wolfgang - thanks for that story, entertaining and
thought provoking, as always. *And thanks, Bob, too, for sharing from
your expertise.

Please forgive this question - I'm not too embarrassed to say that I
don't quite get the mechanics of this accident.

google image search of "logging accident barber chair" produced this:http://www.forestryforum.com/images/...arberchair.jpg

Is the issue that part of the tree from *below* the intended cut gets
split along with the main part of the tree and that's what swings up
with bad potential results?

There's also this youTube moviehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2YAf61zz5VU&feature=related

You can see the other problem with a barber chair (other than the
potential of getting hammered by the snapping butt); you lose control
of where the tree falls. It can be hard to get out of the way of a 70
foot tree unless you can run 70 feet in under a second.

Interestingly, a young man who frequently worked with Karl on
harvesting trees for firewood stopped by yesterday to visit the scene
of the accident. After listening to my description of the scene and
my thoughts on the most likely chain of events he went out to look for
himself. He came back with an alternative theory.

He insisted that when the split occured the tree could not possibly
have been moving fast enough to catch Karl on the upswing. He is
absolutely certain that Karl watched it as it rose and then failed to
move out of the way as it came down and crashed into his face. He
bolstered his argument by pointing to Karl's cap, which was lying
under the butt of the tree about where Karl's feet were when he was
found. I remain unimpressed by the cap's position as it could have
been knocked just about anywhere, at any time, regardless of what
actually happened. Hell, for that matter, he could have taken it off
as a gesture of respect for the providence that was about to smite
him.

I am also dubious about the alternative theory for a couple of
reasons. In the first place, despite the fact that I was unfmaliar
with the term, I've seen the "barber chair" phenomenon on a number of
occasions.....the **** moves plenty fast enough to kill. Second, The
illustration at the site provided by dr. narcolepsy:

http://www.forestryforum.com/images/...arberchair.jpg

is all too clear, and I assume that on a site dedicated to forestry
and inhabited by folks who presumably know what they are doing, an
illustration showing a rare exception to the rule of what might happen
would be labelled as such. Third, the ever faithful and useful
Occam's razor. There appears to be no justification for the
complicating factor of a tree rising slowly past the sawyer who then
sits immobile while watching it fall on his head. Finally, what I
will take the liberty of calling the classic scenario accounts
beautifully for Karl's position, lying flat on his back with his feet
near the stump and the massive injury to the left side of his face,
given that he was obviously cutting in the usual posture.....the
expected direction of fall to the left of the sawyer, as evidenced by
the saw, whose blade was still in the cut on the stump when I
arrived. Had the tree in fact caught him on the way
down.....certainly not impossible, despite the apparent evidence to
the contrary.....it seems unlikely that he would have been lying in
the position and posture in which he was found.

All of this, of course, could easily be dismissed as idle (and perhaps
even morbid and sordid) speculation....for anyone but a forensic
pathologist or other investigator with some sort of legitimate
professional interest.....except that the young man alluded to above
stated that his own interest was on behalf of the family, who wanted
to know what happened.

Well, they never will. None of us will.

However, they will get a more or less plausible scenario. And given
that most of us get through life just fine with precious little but
implausible (not to say absurdly impossible) scenarios.....things
should work out just fine.

giles
who, due to complicating factors that would doubtless bore all the
ravenous fishin' stuff devotees on site, does not expect to be
consulted on the matter.

Frank Reid © 2010 wrote in
:

On Mar 24, 6:55*pm, Giles wrote:
On Mar 24, 7:09*am, Myron Buck wrote:









On Mar 24, 1:11*am, Giles wrote:

I am also dubious about the alternative theory for a couple of
reasons. *In the first place, despite the fact that I was
unfmaliar with the term, I've seen the "barber chair" phenomenon
on a number of occasions.....the **** moves plenty fast enough to
kill. *Second, T
he
illustration at the site provided by dr. narcolepsy:

http://www.forestryforum.com/images/...cs/barberchair
.jp
g

is all too clear, and I assume that on a site dedicated to
forestry and inhabited by folks who presumably know what they are
doing, an illustration showing a rare exception to the rule of
what might happe
n
would be labelled as such. *Third, the ever faithful and useful
Occam's razor. *There appears to be no justification for the
complicating factor of a tree rising slowly past the sawyer who
then sits immobile while watching it fall on his head. *Finally,
what I will take the liberty of calling the classic scenario
accounts beautifully for Karl's position, lying flat on his back
with his feet near the stump and the massive injury to the left
side of his face, given that he was obviously cutting in the
usual posture.....the expected direction of fall to the left of
the sawyer, as evidenced by the saw, whose blade was still in the
cut on the stump when I arrived. *Had the tree in fact caught him
on the way down.....certainly not impossible, despite the
apparent evidence to the contrary.....it seems unlikely that he
would have been lying in the position and posture in which he was
found.

I consulted with a buddy back home who is a forester, and he said
the danger with Barber Chairs is basically all of the above: the
butt end can clip you on the way up, the tree can spin
unpredictably when it is tilting, the trees around you can get
involved in a less than desireable manner, it ruins a lot of board
feet of lumber, and the entire thing can drop on your head. You
basically lose control of a very large tree that is falling down at
your feet.

He said the protocol for dealing with them is NOT to run away
posthaste, but to keep an eye on it as you escape on your
preplanned escape route in case it comes your way, as you are in
the potential of immediate peril from multiple potentialities. In
fact, if you get one that is hung up on the hinge, you're supposed
to either get a skidder to pull it down, or post the area with
warning signs and get out.

Not sure exactly what scenario played out with your acquaintance,
but if he was an experienced woodcutter, it's possible that he
watched it rise up with the intent of getting out of the way if it
fell his way, and misjudged. I think the illustration on the
website was just one possible scenario rather than the most common
one. I know getting hit with the butt end of the log is one of the
biggest fears with fellers, and they take great pains not to be in
alignment with the tree as it falls. That illustration probably
just combines both those fears. But that's just my opinion, and
worth less than you paid for it.

--riverman

Your opinions are worth a lot more than I paid for them. *They make
perfect sense.

They say it's an ill wind as blows no one good. *Well, this one
started out ill.....and it ain't done yet.

But some good has come of it after all. *I feel confident that I'm
not to only one here who has, as a result, learned some things that
somebody or other should have sat him down and told him about in no
uncertain terms and in fine detail before he first pranced into the
woods wielding a chainsaw.

That said, and while freely admitting the validity of other described
possible scenarios, I still remain firmly wedded to my original
hypothesis. *Nothing else fits the facts on the ground as closely and
logically.

Karl was a man of firm and liberally distributed opinions. *I find
myself wondering what he would have thought looking down on someone
else.

giles

I've learned something too. Neighbor asked me to help him fell some
trees. Yeah, don't think so. With my history, well, you know...
Frank Reid


Hopefully "Green Teeth Giles" will fell the tree for you; That
intoxicated Sot better look out, their is a widow-maker limb with his
name on it!!!!!!
HH.

As someone who has lost so many people in his life, you "wishing" for
the death of someone, a friend, is so reprehensible as to be deeply
disturbing. Why would anyone with a shred of decency do that?
Frank Reid

On Mar 26, 10:14*pm, Frank Reid © 2010 wrote:
As someone who has lost so many people in his life, you "wishing" for
the death of someone, a friend, is so reprehensible as to be deeply
disturbing. *Why would anyone with a shred of decency do that?
Frank Reid

Well, I'm certain that you wouldn't make the list.....and I have
reason to hope that I wouldn't either.....but there are most certainly
people on this planet without whom it would be a better place.
Probably a billion or more. Perfectly decent to wish them bon voyage
and don't let the door hit you in the ass, regardless of their
affiliations with bona fide human beings.

Mind you, I am not so naive as to suppose that the elimination of any
one of them (taken at random, that is.....there ARE indeed individuals
whose disappearance would make a difference) would make a significant
difference in the sum total of evil in this world......but still, it
can't be a bad thing.

All that said, yeah, you're right, he (or,somewhat less likely, she)
IS a ****wit.....but it already knew that.

That's why it is HERE (of all the available venues in the universe)
demonstrating (for the benefit of any as yet unconvinced spectators)
that it is indeed a ****wit.....all the while pretending and hoping to
believe that it it may pass itself off as something else.

Good luck......ainna?

giles
who, much to his chagrine, can't remember.......does he have a current
address to which to send chestnuts?