Problem with tying Wulffs

Howdy,

I've been tying all sorts of things for my NC trip, and in the
process of doing various Wulff ties, I noticed that I always seem to
have one problem. To wit, when I wrap the hackle from behind the wing
to in front, it always splays forward and winds up crowding the eye. I
build up the area in front of the wing, so there's a gentle slope (or
"ramp" as I believe Harry Mason calls it), but that doesn't seem to help.

I've tried tying the hackle in both ways (i.e., shiny side facing
the shank and dull side facing the shank), but it seems that the last
move of the hackle around the wing always screws up the position of the
hackle and causes it to splay. I can usually salvage things by holding
the stray fibers back before the next wrap, but I'm guessing I must be
missing something obvious.

Any ideas of what I might be doing wrong or helpful hints from you
more experienced tiers (tyers ... tires ... tyres)?


Chuck Vance (and while I've got your attention, how many wraps do
you try to get in front of and behind the wings?)

"Conan The Librarian" wrote


Any ideas of what I might be doing wrong or helpful hints from you more
experienced tiers (tyers ... tires ... tyres)?



one of my fondest daydreams .... right there with winning the lottery ....
is being able to tie a decent #20 Royal Wulff .... hell, I'd settle for an
#18 and $20 scratcher

Conan The Librarian wrote:

I've tried tying the hackle in both ways (i.e., shiny side facing

the shank and dull side facing the shank), but it seems that the last

move of the hackle around the wing always screws up the position of
the
hackle and causes it to splay. I can usually salvage things by
holding
the stray fibers back before the next wrap, but I'm guessing I must
be
missing something obvious.

Any ideas of what I might be doing wrong or helpful hints from
you
more experienced tiers (tyers ... tires ... tyres)?


Chuck Vance (and while I've got your attention, how many wraps
do
you try to get in front of and behind the wings?)

If Harry Mason or AK Best chime in, disregard what I say

Are you using the right sized hackle for the hook? I don't use a guage
anymore, I just check that the fiber length is the same size as the
hook gape.

Anyway for what it is worth, on a wulff or humpy type tie, I moved the
calf tail back so it is a little more than 1/3 shank length distance to
the hook eye. I tie in both a brown hackle and a grizzly hackle infront
of the herl, wrap each fiber tightly twice behind the calf tail and
three times in front, as tight and as close to the calf tail as
possible. Sometimes I use a small hackle guard behind the eye to keep
me from getting too close the eye.

Good luck.

Wayne Knight wrote:

If Harry Mason or AK Best chime in, disregard what I say

That reminds me, where has AK been, anyway? ;-)

Are you using the right sized hackle for the hook? I don't use a guage
anymore, I just check that the fiber length is the same size as the
hook gape.

I was about to answer that I am using the right hackle size, until I
saw the phrase "same size as the hook gape". I thought it was supposed
to be between 1 and 1-1/2 times the gape (i.e., more than the gape so
that the fly sits on the hackle rather than the hook).

Anyway for what it is worth, on a wulff or humpy type tie, I moved the
calf tail back so it is a little more than 1/3 shank length distance to
the hook eye. I tie in both a brown hackle and a grizzly hackle infront
of the herl, wrap each fiber tightly twice behind the calf tail and
three times in front, as tight and as close to the calf tail as
possible. Sometimes I use a small hackle guard behind the eye to keep
me from getting too close the eye.

Do you use a manufactured guard or a bit of a drinking straw or some
other homemade guard? I've been playing around with homemade things,
but find that I'm just as well off just using my third hand to hold the
fibers back. ;-)

I do like your suggestion of moving the wing. I've even been
playing around with tying Wulffs on 2X long dry hooks (TMC 5212?). To
my eye the proportions still look OK, but I guess the fish will be the
final arbiters of that. :-}

Thanks for your help. I was starting to think that either it was a
dumb question and no-one else on ROFF(T) has problems tying Wulffs, or
*everyone* has problems and no-one had any answers. :-)


Chuck Vance

Conan The Librarian wrote:

I was about to answer that I am using the right hackle size,
until I
saw the phrase "same size as the hook gape". I thought it was
supposed
to be between 1 and 1-1/2 times the gape (i.e., more than the gape so

that the fly sits on the hackle rather than the hook

It's probably *supposed* to be the ration you mention, on flies with
long tails, I prefer to keep the hackle the size of the gape. Which
puts it on the smaller end of the spectrum.


Do you use a manufactured guard or a bit of a drinking straw or
some
other homemade guard? I've been playing around with homemade things,

but find that I'm just as well off just using my third hand to hold
the
fibers back. ;-)

I use something I picked up a few years ago, it's metal with a slotted
round and slightly conical head. I looked online in a few places for a
picture but did not find one. I've also used a hair stacker in a pinch,
I tend to carry my wraps out too far and the guard keeps me honest.


I do like your suggestion of moving the wing. I've even been
playing around with tying Wulffs on 2X long dry hooks (TMC 5212?).
To
my eye the proportions still look OK, but I guess the fish will be
the
final arbiters of that. :-}

I tie almost all of my dry flies on 2x long hooks, Otherwise I'd really
be screwed

Thanks for your help. I was starting to think that either it was
a
dumb question and no-one else on ROFF(T) has problems tying Wulffs,
or
*everyone* has problems and no-one had any answers. :-)

I think of those who responded, Mr. Collin probably has the best
experience. The last fly swap I entered, I had to tie almost 60 to get
24 to send.

Wayne Knight wrote:
Conan The Librarian wrote:
snip
Do you use a manufactured guard or a bit of a drinking straw or
some other homemade guard? I've been playing around with homemade
things,

but find that I'm just as well off just using my third hand to hold
the fibers back. ;-)

I use something I picked up a few years ago, it's metal with a slotted
round and slightly conical head. I looked online in a few places for a
picture but did not find one.

When I started tying a few years ago, I would find those in almost every
fly shop. I think I picked up a set (for different sized hooks) from
Walt at http://ezflyfish.com, but now I can't find them at all. A very
handy tool when you're crowding the eye.
--
TL,
Tim
------------------------
http://css.sbcma.com/timj

Tim J. wrote:

When I started tying a few years ago, I would find those in almost every
fly shop. I think I picked up a set (for different sized hooks) from
Walt at http://ezflyfish.com, but now I can't find them at all. A very
handy tool when you're crowding the eye.

Are you talking about the Thompson hackle guard:
http://www.dhthompson.com/tools.php

I've got one of those somewhere in my stack of stuff. I bought it
thinking I'd use it all the time, and promptly stuck it in one of my
tying materials bins, never to be seen again. :-}


Chuck Vance (who tends to grab a length of plastic straw when he
gets desperate)

Something about the hackle proportions: If you want to emulate the Wulff's,
as tied(tyed) by Lee Wulff and Dan Bailey, then the hackle will be 1-1/2 to
2 times the gap. or roughly the length of the shank from the eye to the
bend. I'm fairly sure that Lee Wulff used the Mustad 9671 (2xl) for his
Wulffs. Of course maybe he did that because he was tying without a vise.
Personally, I don't like the idea of a gentle sloping bed of wraps in front
of the wing. The hackle will follow that slope which will angle the barbs
forward. Build up a dam immediately against the front of the wing. Encircle
the individual wings to stand them up. Then lay a smooth layer of thread in
front of the wing as a base. That way, when you wrap the hackle, the barbs
will stand straighter then with a sloped underbody.

Allan

Conan The Librarian wrote:
Howdy,

I've been tying all sorts of things for my NC trip, and in the
process of doing various Wulff ties, I noticed that I always seem to
have one problem. To wit, when I wrap the hackle from behind the wing
to in front, it always splays forward and winds up crowding the eye. I
build up the area in front of the wing, so there's a gentle slope (or
"ramp" as I believe Harry Mason calls it), but that doesn't seem to help.

I've tried tying the hackle in both ways (i.e., shiny side facing the
shank and dull side facing the shank), but it seems that the last move
of the hackle around the wing always screws up the position of the
hackle and causes it to splay. I can usually salvage things by holding
the stray fibers back before the next wrap, but I'm guessing I must be
missing something obvious.

Any ideas of what I might be doing wrong or helpful hints from you
more experienced tiers (tyers ... tires ... tyres)?


Chuck Vance (and while I've got your attention, how many wraps do
you try to get in front of and behind the wings?)

Actually, the way you are tying them will always result in a crowded
eye. When tying any dry fly, the surface over which the hackle is wound
must be as cylindrical as you can make it. The hackle will always point
at a right angle to the surface it is wound on. When you cut off the
extra calf tail, make it rather squarish right near the eye. By tying
off the hackle at the head, you will build up the head sufficiently.

Also, I tie hairwings so that the butts point rearward, giving a much
smaller shank near the eye.

Hope this helps.

peter Collin

Peter A. Collin wrote:

Actually, the way you are tying them will always result in a crowded
eye. When tying any dry fly, the surface over which the hackle is wound
must be as cylindrical as you can make it. The hackle will always point
at a right angle to the surface it is wound on. When you cut off the
extra calf tail, make it rather squarish right near the eye. By tying
off the hackle at the head, you will build up the head sufficiently.

I'm not sure I'm understanding you correctly here. You say that I
should make the calf-tail cut "squarish right near the eye". But I tie
on the calftail with the butts pointed towards the hook bend, so there
isn't anything to cut off near the eye.

And every instruction I've ever read (or at least Harry's :-) says
to make angled cuts, never square ones.

As far as making a cylindrical surface for the hackle to rest on,
that's basically what I'm trying to do with the "ramp" I describe. But
I don't see how you can make a cylinder that runs all the way to the
hook eye and matches the size of the buildup behind the wings. Seems
like the thread would just slide right off the eye. :-)

Or are you saying that you tie the wing-butts off in front, so you
already have a buildup there?

Thanks for your suggestions.


Chuck Vance