How would you explain it?

My old long-lost fishing buddy, who now lives in
Australia, was visiting. We wanted to float the Yellowstone
but it was blown out, the one day we had.

So we drove up to a high-altitude place where there are
several well-known cutthroat creeks. One of them looked like
chocolate pudding, so we hiked into the lower end of
lower Shoe-creek and fished 'til noon, working our way back up stream.
There was no midday hatch and they just weren't taking hoppers.

We both worked hard with small PMDs and took a few hard-earned fish.
I got impatient and put on a homemade Twister-tail diver, and
nailed at least a half a dozen fish. But you need an 8-weight rod
to cast that sort of thing, and I had a wisply 5-weight in my hand.

We gave up on Shoe-creek at noon, hiked out and drove over to Wide-about
creek, where we absolutely wacked'em. But I did discover they would
only look at your fly once. They'd either take or refuse, and then
that was it. So I moved quickly, wading fast upstream, nicking
6-8 fish at each pool, and actually hooking and landing maybe one
or two at each spot.

Then I realized I was fishing out in front of my friend, who
I was supposed to be entertaining. I waded back downstream, with
hat in hand, and appoligized. But Patrick knitted his brow
and said "I've seen the same thing. They either take on the first
drift or not at all."

I was fishing a big foam hopper, which they would only look at once.
My buddy was fishing an itty-bitty, hard-to-see Black Caddis,
which they would only look at once.

But here's the punchine:
The wouldn't take the hopper after the first drift. But they'd still
take the Black Caddis. But that too they'd only look at once.
On the way back, we hop-scotched the same water we'd fished on the
way up. And never nicked a single fish. We must have wacked
25-30 apiece on the way up.

Do they remember individual flies?.....one chance on a hopper,
and but still ready to eat a Black Caddis? But that too only once?

I don't know the explanation. But I sure did see the behavior.



--
/* Sandy Pittendrigh --oO0
** http://montana-riverboats.com
*/

Sandy,
I don't know what species you were fishing over, but I have seen browns do
the same thing here in the east. Like you, the size of the fly used didn't
matter, you had one shot each with a cricket or a midge.
Sadly, I have no answer, either, but am glad to see that kind of frustration
is widespreadg!
Tom

Thomas Littleton wrote:
Sandy,
I don't know what species you were fishing over, but I have seen browns do
the same thing here in the east. Like you, the size of the fly used didn't
matter, you had one shot each with a cricket or a midge.
Sadly, I have no answer, either, but am glad to see that kind of frustration
is widespreadg!

Hi Tom:

I wrote that post in a hurry last week, just before going on
vacation. I could have written it more carefully. I should have
called that post "do they remember individual flies?"

Remember is a loaded word--a word that suggests thinking.
I work in a neuroscience lab where they (I'm a programmer there,
not a neuroscientist) study cricket responses to wind puffs. They (the
crickets) go nuts if any incoming wind puff pulses at 30hz....which is
approximately the speed of a wasp wing beat. Crickets also measure the
directional source of any incoming wind puff (on a 360 degree horizontal
grid) and semi-instantly jump 180 degrees away from the wind--which
is, of course, the best escape strategy.
But that isn't thinking. It's hard-wired response.


I have a hunch fish respond similarly....responding to external
stimuli with hard-wired responses, rather than thinking.
But those hard-wired responses do, it seems, include some sort of short
term cache memory, where they learn not to bite a fake grasshopper more
than once, but still ready to bite a phony black caddis...or whatever
else. I know from experience too, that the same fish will bite that
hopper the next day. That sort term Momento-like memory doesn't last
the night. (they were high altitude cutthroats, by the way).




--
/* Sandy Pittendrigh --oO0
** http://montana-riverboats.com
*/

"sandy" wrote in message
...
Thomas Littleton wrote:
Sandy,
I don't know what species you were fishing over, but I have seen browns
do
the same thing here in the east. Like you, the size of the fly used
didn't
matter, you had one shot each with a cricket or a midge.
Sadly, I have no answer, either, but am glad to see that kind of
frustration
is widespreadg!

Hi Tom:

I wrote that post in a hurry last week, just before going on
vacation. I could have written it more carefully. I should have
called that post "do they remember individual flies?"

Depends on what you mean by "individual flies", I guess. The nine inch
brown trout I hooked on a pass lake some years ago in the Pigeon River
outside Sheboygan could hardly have forgotten it.....the fly was still in
the fish's throat when I caught it 3 hours later on another copy of the
same.

Remember is a loaded word--a word that suggests thinking.

Depends on what you mean by "remember" and "thinking", I guess.

I work in a neuroscience lab

Oh?

where they (I'm a programmer there,
not a neuroscientist) study cricket responses to wind puffs. They (the
crickets) go nuts if any incoming wind puff pulses at 30hz....which is
approximately the speed of a wasp wing beat.

Which wasp would that be? The reason I ask is that I went for a long walk
this afternoon and took pictures of a number of wasps. Some of them were
roughly 3 cm in length......others (I'm no expert, but differences in
coloration and morphology strongly suggest they were different species) were
less than 4 mm. I have no way of measuring the frequency of their wingbeats
but I'd be much surprised if all the half dozen or so varieties I saw today
showed no differences in this particular metric. And common sense dictates
that there were a few other species (Austalian, South American, African, and
Eurasian varieties come readily to mind) I missed.

As to wind puffs......well, by the time a cricket feels the movement of air
disturbed by a wasps wings.....assuming the wasp is large enough and bent on
the destruction of crickets......I'd guess the cricket is what we here in
the upper Great Lakes region refer to as "toast". Sound waves, of course,
are another matter entirely. I wouldn't be a bit surprised to learn that
there are crickets who head for cover when they hear (I can sometimes hear
crickets hundreds of yards away......I have no reason to suppose that other
crickets {for whose benefit they are, presumably, conducting their
serenades} are any less adept at picking up their signals) wingbeats at
frequencies which suggest those of critters that prey on them. After all,
we know that various moths and mantids (or, at least the males among the
latter, anyway) will hit the deck as quickly as possible when they pick up
bats' "sonar" signals......and who's to say a cricket is dumber than a moth?

Crickets also measure the
directional source of any incoming wind puff (on a 360 degree horizontal
grid) and semi-instantly jump 180 degrees away from the wind--which
is, of course, the best escape strategy.

Well, yeah......if your trying to escape wind.......but it needs to be a
pretty long jump.

But that isn't thinking. It's hard-wired response.

Says who?

I have a hunch fish respond similarly....responding to external
stimuli with hard-wired responses, rather than thinking.

And the precise definition of the diference is.......?

But those hard-wired responses do, it seems, include some sort of short
term cache memory,

Fish have Intel® inside?

where they learn not to bite a fake grasshopper more than once,

Thus suggesting the pass lake is more magical than even I have given it
credit for.

but still ready to bite a phony black caddis...or whatever else. I know
from experience too, that the same fish will bite that
hopper the next day.

Well, sometimes.

That sort term Momento-like memory doesn't last
the night. (they were high altitude cutthroats, by the way).

Becky tells me we once watched a movie with a similar
title......um......hang on a minute...........o.k., "Memento", she says (if
I remember correctly). I dunno.

Wolfgang
who, noting (if memory serves) that cockroaches are taught to navigate mazes
and that learning requires memory, is startled (to say the least) that
roaches (and planaria, for that matter) are the intellectual superiors of
trout........well, western trout anyway.

sandy wrote:
My old long-lost fishing buddy, who now lives in
Australia, was visiting. We wanted to float the Yellowstone
but it was blown out, the one day we had.

So we drove up to a high-altitude place where there are
several well-known cutthroat creeks. One of them looked like
chocolate pudding, so we hiked into the lower end of
lower Shoe-creek and fished 'til noon, working our way back up stream.
There was no midday hatch and they just weren't taking hoppers.

We both worked hard with small PMDs and took a few hard-earned fish.
I got impatient and put on a homemade Twister-tail diver, and
nailed at least a half a dozen fish. But you need an 8-weight rod
to cast that sort of thing, and I had a wisply 5-weight in my hand.

We gave up on Shoe-creek at noon, hiked out and drove over to Wide-about
creek, where we absolutely wacked'em. But I did discover they would
only look at your fly once. They'd either take or refuse, and then
that was it. So I moved quickly, wading fast upstream, nicking
6-8 fish at each pool, and actually hooking and landing maybe one
or two at each spot.

Then I realized I was fishing out in front of my friend, who
I was supposed to be entertaining. I waded back downstream, with
hat in hand, and appoligized. But Patrick knitted his brow
and said "I've seen the same thing. They either take on the first
drift or not at all."

I was fishing a big foam hopper, which they would only look at once.
My buddy was fishing an itty-bitty, hard-to-see Black Caddis,
which they would only look at once.

But here's the punchine:
The wouldn't take the hopper after the first drift. But they'd still
take the Black Caddis. But that too they'd only look at once.
On the way back, we hop-scotched the same water we'd fished on the
way up. And never nicked a single fish. We must have wacked
25-30 apiece on the way up.

Do they remember individual flies?.....one chance on a hopper,
and but still ready to eat a Black Caddis? But that too only once?

I don't know the explanation. But I sure did see the behavior.



I can't explain it, being a complete "newbie", but now I begin to
understand why there are so many different fly patterns out there!

Karl S.

"sandy" wrote in message
...

But here's the punchine:
The wouldn't take the hopper after the first drift. But they'd still take
the Black Caddis. But that too they'd only look at once.
On the way back, we hop-scotched the same water we'd fished on the
way up. And never nicked a single fish. We must have wacked
25-30 apiece on the way up.

Do they remember individual flies?.....one chance on a hopper,
and but still ready to eat a Black Caddis? But that too only once?


I had something like that happen fishing crank baits for bass last year. I
know this is a fly group, but I think the idea may cross over.

We had to fish very fast to get them to chase and/or bite. We found a huge
school of small bass stacked up just off a grass bed in 8-10 feet of water.
I caught two right off the bat on a crank, then chasers but no takers. Then
I switched to another crank and caught two more. I did that four times in
that same spot. Then we did the same thing on another school of bass in
another spot on the same lake. It was pretty clear water (for a bass lake).
I think what we were throwing was just not quite right. If we fished it
very fast, and kept showing them something different we kept catching. If
we gave them too much time to look at it they wouldn't hit.

Sometimes fish are picky, but they will hit. I know in other finicky fish
situations site fishing I have managed to catch a lot of fish by
deliberately jerking a bait away from them. After a couple fish you can get
an idea what their inspection / turn back distance is. If we jerked the
bait away from the fish about when they were just a few inches further away
from the bait than that they would zoom forward and nail it before it gets
away. I can tell you when this technique is working it is very consistant.

I know trout aren't the same as bass, but they can be aggressive predators,
and I know the principals apply to other species as well. For instance with
musky they are notorious for following a bait all the way to the boat and
then turning away as you lift it out of the water. A technique I have heard
that excites and gets them to strike is to stick your rod in the water and
drag the bait around in a big fast figure eight. The bait accelerates very
quickly as it whips around the turns of the figure eight and the erratic
movement mimics a desperate bait fish trying to get away.

I may have dirfted off the precise questions you had, but I think you may
have been able to catch more fish by trying some variations of the theme.
In other words changing flies more often. When I run into that situation
crank baiting bass I will tie a duolock clip on braided line so I can change
cranks quickly. I know that is not practical for fly fishing, but I have
sen a very small spring type wire clip that just snaps over the eye of a
bait that might do the trick. More of a hook than a snap really. I am not
sure how much the added weight would throw off your fly, but I have seen
some of these that are very small. You mentioned a foam hopper. That
sounds like a pretty big bait. I doubt the tiny clip I am thinking of would
throw it off much. You would want to rety as often as you normally would,
but in between you could swap flies very quickly for finicky fish or one
fish holes.


--
Bob La Londe

Win a Tackle Pack
Jig Fishing - Tips and Techniques Contest
Courtesy of Siebler Custom Baits
http://www.YumaBassMan.com

I know that is not practical for fly fishing, but I have
sen a very small spring type wire clip that just snaps over the eye of a
bait that might do the trick.


http://www.basspro.com/servlet/catal...=SearchResults



--
Bob La Londe

Win a Tackle Pack
Jig Fishing - Tips and Techniques Contest
Courtesy of Siebler Custom Baits
http://www.YumaBassMan.com

"Then I realized I was fishing out in front of my friend, who
I was supposed to be entertaining. I waded back downstream, with
hat in hand, and appoligized"....


that's a nice "host move".......manners & consideration.......we
can use a bit more of that......imho.....