Long tapered leaders

Has anyone had success turning over flies with long tapered
leaders?
Currently I'm using 4x 9' knotless tapered leaders with 18"
5x tippet material and been having good success turning over
18-16 size flies. I'm now planning to try 12' leaders with an 18"
5x tippet material. I'm thinking however the leaders don't
necessarily have to be knotless.
Any good formulas for 12' leaders for delicate presentation?
Keep in mind I do want to use 18" tippet material.
thanks,
-tom

On Fri, 8 Feb 2008 13:05:33 -0800, "Tom Nakashima"
wrote:

Currently I'm using 4x 9' knotless tapered leaders with 18"
5x tippet material and been having good success turning over
18-16 size flies. I'm now planning to try 12' leaders with an 18"
5x tippet material.

Why do you want to go to 12' leaders, Tom.

"Dave LaCourse" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 8 Feb 2008 13:05:33 -0800, "Tom Nakashima"
wrote:

Currently I'm using 4x 9' knotless tapered leaders with 18"
5x tippet material and been having good success turning over
18-16 size flies. I'm now planning to try 12' leaders with an 18"
5x tippet material.

Why do you want to go to 12' leaders, Tom.

Yes,
I've been asked that many times. I can throw 9' leaders with a nice
turnover of the fly, and now I would like to try 12' leaders. For one,
see if I can turn over a #16 fly at 12' 18", and if I ever needed to do
so to leader shy trout.
I have a feeling you're going to tell me, that would never be the case.
-tom

"Tom Nakashima" wrote in message
...

"Dave LaCourse" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 8 Feb 2008 13:05:33 -0800, "Tom Nakashima"
wrote:

Currently I'm using 4x 9' knotless tapered leaders with 18"
5x tippet material and been having good success turning over
18-16 size flies. I'm now planning to try 12' leaders with an 18"
5x tippet material.

Why do you want to go to 12' leaders, Tom.

Yes,
I've been asked that many times. I can throw 9' leaders with a nice
turnover of the fly, and now I would like to try 12' leaders. For one,
see if I can turn over a #16 fly at 12' 18", and if I ever needed to do
so to leader shy trout.
I have a feeling you're going to tell me, that would never be the case.
-tom


Now tom, be honest....it has nothing to do with shy trout....you just want
to fish with a longer leader!

good luck!

john

On Fri, 8 Feb 2008 13:52:53 -0800, "Tom Nakashima"
wrote:

I have a feeling you're going to tell me, that would never be the case.

G

No, you will surely run into leader shy fish. I just don't think you
will need a 12 foot leader for them, however. I'll get flamed for
saying this, but a 7 1/2 foot 5x leader with 18 inches of 6x
fluorocarbon tippet would work just as well. Or even a 6x leader with
7x FC. FC sinks, true enough, but I have had no trouble floating
small flies with it, and because it does sink I think that is a
positive thing. Some will say that FC is too stiff to turn over a
fly, but I have never had that trouble.

Dave

In article , Dave LaCourse
wrote:


Why do you want to go to 12' leaders, Tom.


On the one hand I think that this is the crucial question. there's a
pressure on us to fish longer leaders, or to cast longer lines, as
thought the whole business was some sort of competition. (which, imho,
it should be with the fish, but not with other people).

But the truth is often that the best line to cast is somewhere around
ten yards, and the best length of leader is often around nine feet.

On the other hand, I rarely actually measure my leader. I start with a
tapered cast one size above the tippet size I'm going to be using
(normally 3 lb), tie on a few feet of tippet, and when that's wrecked I
keep cutting and tying until the whole rig is clearly useless and I
have to start again.

I imagine that is roughly what a lot of us do.

On the other hand, I quite frequently find that I'm fishing a twelve or
fourteen foot cast ** not because I believe in it for any a priori
reason, but simply because it fishes better on the waters I'm on.

A lot of the time I'm on glassy, gin-clear chalk streams (spring
creeks) - in particular the Itchen, in Hampshire, england.

There, the one thing that will spell disaster is drag.

So what I'm actually seeking to do is have my tippet fall in a bit of a
bedraggle, that may unwind itself on the surface of the stream and give
just a few seconds for my fly to drift without drag over the lie where
my fish is feeding.

thus twelve to fourteen feet may give me a poor-looking cast, but may
also catch me a fish.

Lazarus

On Feb 8, 6:07*pm, Lazarus Cooke
wrote:

[little snip]

On the other hand, I quite frequently find that I'm fishing a twelve or
fourteen foot cast ** not because I believe in it for any a priori
reason, but simply because it fishes better on the waters I'm on.

A lot of the time I'm on glassy, gin-clear chalk streams (spring
creeks) - in particular the Itchen, in Hampshire, england.

There, the one thing that will spell disaster is drag.

So what I'm actually seeking to do is have my tippet fall in a bit of a
bedraggle, that may unwind itself on the surface of the stream and give
just a few seconds for my fly to drift without drag over the lie where
my fish is feeding.

thus twelve to fourteen feet may give me a poor-looking cast, but may
also catch me a fish.

This thread has been interesting for me. The fish in my home
waters (mostly Guadalupe bass and sunfish) aren't particularly leader-
shy, so I'm usually more concerned with simply getting a leader to
turn the fly over.

When I visited western NC and the Smokies, I found that using a
short leader (less than rod length) worked best for dealing with the
overgrowth and tight quarters. When I met up with Wolfgang on an open
stretch of the Little River, he handed me a rod with about a 12'
leader (is that right, Wolfgang?) and told me to give that a try.

To my eyes, my casts looked horrible; the leader landed in a pile
each time. But, the fish seemed more than happy to jump all over the
fly. Due to the slack, I missed some fish (and even had one fish that
I had "missed" somehow wind up on the end of my line after I finally
got all the slack in). But I had better luck when I followed
Wolfgang's advice and lengthened the leader on my own rig and stopped
worrying about how "pretty" my casts were.

I still struggle when I've got a leader much longer than the rod,
but I've been playing around with it more ever since that trip, and
when conditions permit, I'll definitely fish a longer leader.


Chuck Vance (now if I could just learn to throw slack line on
purpose)

"Conan The Librarian" wrote


Chuck Vance (now if I could just learn to throw slack line on
purpose)


MY advice ( remember I concentrate on flat waters and 'tough' fish .. slack
casts are a hindrance in many situations, thus the mantra of 'turn over your
fly' ) is to start with a leader you like for the fly being cast ... I
won't detail what I usually use, except to say that a tippet ring is a
great help as it allows you to keep most of the leader uniform for weeks and
only change tippet size and length to suit the fly. Your furled leaders
should be fine, tweaked to a given fly.

This basic leader should, with YOUR casting stroke, 'turn over' the fly
involved when you cast a straight line ... only a little wiggle should be
in the leader at most.
Now throw some paper plates around your practice yard and try to hit them
with your fly ( gently :-) ... the fly may hop out of the hard plate but
it's the original landing that matters. After you hit one at mid
distance a few time, using exactly the same amount of line, try to land the
fly in a plate a foot or two closer to you.

Try aiming a little higher and using slightly less power, lower the rod as
the line falls .. viola, slack .... wiggle the rod tip as the line unfolds
.... slack .... try what would be a tuck cast if you were using a weighted
nymph .. put some plates between you and the target plate and try to snake
the line between them by flicking the rod tip to put bends into the line
..... cast your normal stroke and just as the line goes straight, pull back
slightly All these things ( and more ) will put slack into the line/
leader in different ways. First step it to observe the differences,
second is to start controling slack by the stoke you make.

Now the hard, ( and extremely fun ) part ... when you are on the stream look
before you cast ...decide IF and if so, WHERE slack is needed to fight drag,
BEFORE you cast. Your practice will provide strong clues as to how to
achieve what you need. Note: do not cast slack 'just because' have a
target and reason for that slack or cast normally ... most times, fishing
upstream in a freestone you probably won't cast slack ... much .. indeed
your task is to gather it up quickly as the fly comes back to you

If I could force my aging, habit ridden, and somewhat sluggish brain to do
one thing while fishing it would be to ... each and every single time ...
try and make my FIRST effort my BEST effort ... most anglers ( me too ) fail
in the places that have the reputation as difficult because they cast, see
that it didn't work, and maybe why, and THEN try harder ... respect your
prey more than that ... plan where the line, leader and fly will land ...
not just the fly ...


Tip: You do your best, chuck ( no pun ) it out there and put the fish down
anyway .... stay and recast until you master that lie even though he is long
gone ... you need the practice G

"Larry L" wrote

Tip: snip


another one ... you can often practice a cast before making it to great
advantage

visualize what the line, leader and fly will look like as they land

Now staying a couple feet too far away make the cast short of the fish until
you get it to look like that visualization ( note it may not drift right
becasue you are actually casting to a differnt part of the stream ) Now
make that extra step towards you prey and repeat that difficult combination
of curve, mend and pile ... smile widely when it works G

http://tinyurl.com/2orw9d

"Larry L" wrote

, thus the mantra of 'turn over your
fly' )


I woke up this morning thinking that maybe some lurker out there might get
the wrong idea from my comments in this thread.

The phrases I use like "pile of slack" never imply the fly isn't 'turned
over' ... in other words, the fly should always land farther from the
angler than any of the leader ... if the leader bends back on itself and the
fly is closer than that bend, less tippet or thicker tippet is called for
( with that fly )


In 'slack casts' the line and/ or leader fall in wiggles, and bends like a
meadow stream often runs its course. The very worthwhile goal I'm
advocating here is to practice and learn to control the position and amount
of that wiggle and those bends. Like controlling loop size there is a big
advantage in being able to lay out a very straight line and leader, one very
wiggly , or many steps in between, at will, and with full understanding of
the why and where of each.

As I said differently elsewhere in this tread ... start with a leader you
can lay down very nearly straight ( with the fly in use ) with a 'text book'
cast and then learn to cast poorly, on demand, for adding and controlling
the wiggle when you want it. Do not depend on the leader to produce the
wiggle on it's own ( basically too thin and too much tippet ) or it always
will, even when a straightened leader would be better in a given situation.


Again, I assume all the regulars around here are far more skilled and
knowledgeable than myself, but I like to think that someone out there might
get some advantage from reading ROFF... occasionally G


Larry L ( 'very nearly straight' still has a tiny bit of wiggle in the last
segment of tippet for dry fly use ... language is not my .. what is that
word, you know ... ah, ..well, ... I just ain't good at it )