They keep spitting out my flies

Hi All,

I figure you guys have already solve this problem!
So, here goes. On my favorite river, at my favorite
hole, there is a spot where I can not keep my line
tense with the rapid. I catch no fish on a fly
here. When the fly get to the point where I can
put a tiny amount of tension on the line, I catch
a ton of fish.

If I switch to a salmon egg, no problem anywhere.
After watching Ozzie's "Feeding Lies"
http://www.underwateroz.com/
several times, I have my answer. Trout
have a strong sense of taste in their lips and
spit my fly out in less than half a second.
This explains the salmon egg verses the fly:
the egg tastes right.

I was thinking of dipping my fly into my salmon egg
bottle, but... Besides learning how to tighten up
my line in this annoying rapid, have any of you come
up with a method to keep my/your dinner from spitting
out your flies when your line is not tight enough?
Add an oder? Swear?

Many thanks,
-T

On Mon, 22 Jun 2009 15:53:16 -0700, Todd wrote:

Hi All,

I figure you guys have already solve this problem!
So, here goes. On my favorite river, at my favorite
hole, there is a spot where I can not keep my line
tense with the rapid. I catch no fish on a fly
here. When the fly get to the point where I can
put a tiny amount of tension on the line, I catch
a ton of fish.

If I switch to a salmon egg, no problem anywhere.
After watching Ozzie's "Feeding Lies"
http://www.underwateroz.com/
several times, I have my answer. Trout
have a strong sense of taste in their lips and
spit my fly out in less than half a second.
This explains the salmon egg verses the fly:
the egg tastes right.

I was thinking of dipping my fly into my salmon egg
bottle, but... Besides learning how to tighten up
my line in this annoying rapid, have any of you come
up with a method to keep my/your dinner from spitting
out your flies when your line is not tight enough?
Add an oder? Swear?

Many thanks,
-T


If you're fishing wets the answer is counter-intuitive. Learn to do a
slip strike. You're pulling the fly out of the fishes mouth.

"Another method used when swinging a fly down stream is a slip strike.
This is accomplished by having a small loop of line between the reel
and your rod hand index finger. When a hit is detected let the loop
slip through your index finger and then set the hook. This technique
can cut down on short takes resulting in missed fish.'
-http://www.flyfishingwis.com/html/streamers.html

OTOH, if salmon eggs work for you, then why bother with flies?

hth

Geo C.

George Cleveland wrote:

If you're fishing wets the answer is counter-intuitive. Learn to do a
slip strike. You're pulling the fly out of the fishes mouth.

Hi George,

This presumes I can feel the strike. I can not. It also
presumes the trout likes what it tastes and doesn't instantly
spit it out.

I have about 4 feet of slack and a bad ass current to contend
with. When I can get my dead drift to the point where I an
feel a strike, I have no problems with a fly -- the fish kind
of set the hook themselves. (Total fun, by the way.)

Bearing in mind, I only have about a half a second to respond
before my nasty tasting fly gets spit out. You should see Ozzie's
videos. Watching underwater video of trout operating from a
feeding lie will really open your eyes. I love the part where
a trout will test a leaf or a twig. If it don't taste right, it
gets spit out real fast. Ozzie makes the point: if this had been
your fly, would you have even know?

OTOH, if salmon eggs work for you, then why bother with flies?

A little background. If I get off early, I jump over to my
favorite hole for about and hour before sundown. Last Wednesday,
in the space of and hour and a half, I caught about twenty
Rainbows, about eight to nine inches each. I sent them all
back to their mothers. My heart is still in my chest - I am
happy to catch any size fish. (These were all wild trout by the
way: excellent fins, par marks on their sides, no spots on
their tummies, fought like hell.)

So to answer your question:

1) it is more fun to use a fly. My fish fight much harder
when hooked with a fly in the lip than gut hooked with bait

2) I have NEVER gut hooked a fish with a fly (if not set quickly,
they get spit out real fast)

3) I get tired of tying new hooks to my leader after cutting
off a gut hooked fish (I wonder if this eventually kills
the fish?)

4) I get tired of having to bait my hooks all the time

5) eggs are messy

-T

On Mon, 22 Jun 2009 17:11:52 -0700, Todd wrote:

George Cleveland wrote:

If you're fishing wets the answer is counter-intuitive. Learn to do a
slip strike. You're pulling the fly out of the fishes mouth.

Hi George,

This presumes I can feel the strike. I can not. It also
presumes the trout likes what it tastes and doesn't instantly
spit it out.

I have about 4 feet of slack and a bad ass current to contend
with. When I can get my dead drift to the point where I an
feel a strike, I have no problems with a fly -- the fish kind
of set the hook themselves. (Total fun, by the way.)

Bearing in mind, I only have about a half a second to respond
before my nasty tasting fly gets spit out. You should see Ozzie's
videos. Watching underwater video of trout operating from a
feeding lie will really open your eyes. I love the part where
a trout will test a leaf or a twig. If it don't taste right, it
gets spit out real fast. Ozzie makes the point: if this had been
your fly, would you have even know?

OTOH, if salmon eggs work for you, then why bother with flies?

A little background. If I get off early, I jump over to my
favorite hole for about and hour before sundown. Last Wednesday,
in the space of and hour and a half, I caught about twenty
Rainbows, about eight to nine inches each. I sent them all
back to their mothers. My heart is still in my chest - I am
happy to catch any size fish. (These were all wild trout by the
way: excellent fins, par marks on their sides, no spots on
their tummies, fought like hell.)

So to answer your question:

1) it is more fun to use a fly. My fish fight much harder
when hooked with a fly in the lip than gut hooked with bait

2) I have NEVER gut hooked a fish with a fly (if not set quickly,
they get spit out real fast)

3) I get tired of tying new hooks to my leader after cutting
off a gut hooked fish (I wonder if this eventually kills
the fish?)

4) I get tired of having to bait my hooks all the time

5) eggs are messy

-T


Why do you have four feet of slack? You might want to practice doing
various mends and reach casts.

But frankly a modest amount of slack isn't going to make much
difference. Fly lines aren't very stretchy and even a line with a fair
amount of slack will transmit force to some degree when you strike. In
fact you can have too tight of connection to your fly. I don't think
Jesus himself could get a dead drift on a tight line.

It could be that the fish are responding to the inadvertent motion you
are giving to the fly when you attempt to keep your line tight. Most
bugs exhibit some degree of motion in the water. Even in those classic
mayfly hatches, the bugs will twitch and struggle before they take
off. The only aquatic insect event that I can think of that involves
motionless bugs is at the tail end of a spinnerfall, after all the
bugs have died and drifted downstream for quite a ways.
(They flop around like anything when they first hit the water.)

Before you start the dubious practice of dipping your fly in salmon
egg juice (If it works they'll swallow your fly just like the eggs and
flies cost a lot more than salmon eggs.), why not experiment with line
handling variations and even casting position changes in the stream?
I'd be surprised if one or more solutions aren't possible and when you
do figure it out you'll be able to have pride in your accomplishment
and not stunt your development as an angler by using ethically
questionable props.

George Cleveland wrote:

Why do you have four feet of slack? You might want to practice doing
various mends and reach casts.

The cast hits in the middle of a spring runoff rapid.
I am trying to get the fly and split shot down under
this water column to the slow water and feeding lies
underneath this extremely fast column of water.
(This all goes away when the runoff ends in about
a month.)

If I put any tension on the line, the line and fly
acts like a sail. Think of a water skier behind a
power boat. I hate to add more weight (slip shots)
but I think I just may have to.

stunt your development as an angler by using ethically
questionable props

I am trying as much as possible to get away from
bait. Flies are great fun to fish with!

-T

George Cleveland wrote:
... not stunt your development as an angler by using ethically
questionable props.

George,

Bait is allowed, even minnows on this stream. Please
explain what you mean by "ethically questionable". What
am I missing?

-T

I would add to everything George has said:

You are trying to catch fish below the surface where the currents are
slower than the surface current. If you are nymphing (and it sounds
like you are) you would want a dead drift, and that is possible only
by weights on your leader.

If your leader/line junction (or your strike indicator) is movig the
same speed as the top current, then so is the fly. To slow it, add
split shot (preferable the non-toxic stuff). If you have a tight line
you will have drag. At the end of the drift the line should tighten
up as the nymph swings in the current. Strikes during this swing are
quite possible, especially with salmon and brook trout.

If you have lots of line out, get as much of it as possible off the
surface - it will cause drag. If you are nymphing at a distance with
lots of line on the water, mending is the only way to defeat drag.
Learn how to throw a mend in your line *during* your cast, and how to
stack mend as soon as the lure hits the water.

Finally, you should not *feel* the take. If you do feel it, you are
probably too late to set the hook, or the fish has hooked himself.
Watch your leader/line or strike indicator for any hesitation. If it
hesitates, stops, or even moves in another direction, set the hook.

And, practice, practice, pratice..........

Dave

Dave LaCourse wrote:
I would add to everything George has said:

You are trying to catch fish below the surface where the currents are
slower than the surface current. If you are nymphing (and it sounds
like you are) you would want a dead drift, and that is possible only
by weights on your leader.

If your leader/line junction (or your strike indicator) is movig the
same speed as the top current, then so is the fly. To slow it, add
split shot (preferable the non-toxic stuff). If you have a tight line
you will have drag. At the end of the drift the line should tighten
up as the nymph swings in the current. Strikes during this swing are
quite possible, especially with salmon and brook trout.

If you have lots of line out, get as much of it as possible off the
surface - it will cause drag. If you are nymphing at a distance with
lots of line on the water, mending is the only way to defeat drag.
Learn how to throw a mend in your line *during* your cast, and how to
stack mend as soon as the lure hits the water.

Finally, you should not *feel* the take. If you do feel it, you are
probably too late to set the hook, or the fish has hooked himself.
Watch your leader/line or strike indicator for any hesitation. If it
hesitates, stops, or even moves in another direction, set the hook.

And, practice, practice, pratice..........

Dave


Thank you! Guess I now have an excuse to go fishing!

-T

Dave LaCourse wrote:
To slow it, add
split shot (preferable the non-toxic stuff).
Hi Dave,

Mine "say" they are non-toxic.

Do you have a rule you follow as to the distance
between the fly and the split shot? I have been
using 8 to 12". Do you put more distance with
more split shot (more weight)? Or, just keep it
the same?

Many thanks,
-T

Dave LaCourse wrote:
I would add to everything George has said:

You are trying to catch fish below the surface where the currents are
slower than the surface current. If you are nymphing (and it sounds
like you are) you would want a dead drift, and that is possible only
by weights on your leader.

If your leader/line junction (or your strike indicator) is movig the
same speed as the top current, then so is the fly. To slow it, add
split shot (preferable the non-toxic stuff). If you have a tight line
you will have drag. At the end of the drift the line should tighten
up as the nymph swings in the current. Strikes during this swing are
quite possible, especially with salmon and brook trout.

If you have lots of line out, get as much of it as possible off the
surface - it will cause drag. If you are nymphing at a distance with
lots of line on the water, mending is the only way to defeat drag.
Learn how to throw a mend in your line *during* your cast, and how to
stack mend as soon as the lure hits the water.

Finally, you should not *feel* the take. If you do feel it, you are
probably too late to set the hook, or the fish has hooked himself.
Watch your leader/line or strike indicator for any hesitation. If it
hesitates, stops, or even moves in another direction, set the hook.

And, practice, practice, pratice..........

Dave


Hi Dave,

I got my work done early yesterday and got a chance to
go to my favorite fishing hole. The water is down about
a foot and the water's clarity has cleared up from the
run off. I am now able to get to my favorite
rock, which I sit on. I was able to fish for about and
hour and a half before I had to go home and do the adult
thing. All in all I caught ten Rainbows about eight
to nine inches in length. All were sent back to there
mommies.

So, sitting on my rock, I tied on my favorite customer
nymph and stuck a single BB sized split shot about a
foot above my fly (lure?). I promptly caught one
Rainbow and that ended that. So, I put a second
split shot right next to the first (I have to put
them next to each other or I get tangles). I caught
four more fish. And, they wised up again. So I
took off the two BB sized split shots and replaced
them with a single large pea sized split shot. I
spaced it about 18 inches from the nymph. I
promptly caught four more.

As Dave stated, the trick it to learn the minimum
needed to keep contact with your fly. The current
determines this for a large extend as well as the
wind. I even used the wind on my line as a strike
indicator.

All my fish were supremely hooked in their lips.
(No gut hooks!) Before Dave's advice, my fly
hooked trout were poorly hooked, which means they
probably hooked themselves. And, i didn't loose
any tackle. My hooks have smashed barbs.

A little off topic but still fishing, all of my
trout jumps about a foot and several times. One
jumped about four feet in the air twice. Red
and silver flashing everywhere. It was spectacular!

To release my fish, I have a little shallow area
on the back side on my rock. It is about an inch
deep. That way I can get the hooks out with out
pulling them out of the water or having to touch the
too much or at all. After being released, one of my trout
decided it would hide its head between two small
rocks in the shallow. Mind you only an inch
of his head would fit. He could not see me, so he
though he was safe, even though the other seven inches
was still sticking out. Usually a little tap with
my rod tip will send them running, but not this
one. So I when back to fishing, figuring he'd
figure it out eventually.

Minutes laster when I had another fish to release,
he was still there, so I reached my hand into the
water and gave his tail a tug. It took two attempts
before he took off to deep water. Hysterical!

I do believe I almost spent as much time with fish on
as with fish off.

Excellent instructions. Thank you! And thank
everyone else for their advice too.

-T